TheAncient

Just realized something... Magic longbow sighted spec also has 100% accuracy, and its spec bar only costs 35%. You can almost do 4 of these specs in a row with spec restore (if you get a leech spec in between hits, you can do 4); normally you can do 3. It has 6-speed. Alternatively, you can combo with KS and then MLB(S) for 2 hits with 100% acc. Does this seem at all useful?

This brings up a good point. I don't understand obsession with exact calculations. Heuristics is valid - we only need a close enough approximation. We don't know much about RS mechanics so there's no point in trying to find exact formulas rather than ones which are 99% accurate.

This is exactly the kind of close-mindedness I wanted to confront by making this post. For pure healing, SGS is inferior; I agree. But for actual inventory space or money saved per spec, SGS is comparable. SGS is also useful partially as a spec weapon and the fact that it heals you much more immediately can make it useful for pvp and pvm.

Melee vs melee: piety beats leeches Mage or range vs mage or range: leeches beats 15%s

Should have told you this earlier, but when I started out I was using a 2:1 brew:(ppot/restore) ratio. I was at least getting two full yaks when I first started. It wasn't til I really got good at timing overloads, knowing when to do prime, and getting EEE that I went under a 1:1 ratio (the setup I gave you) and over one yak. You should be getting at least 45 kills an hour, btw. I average more around 55-60. 83 kills in 75 minutes is really good though. At some point you should also try cannoning. It's faster (at least 70/hr, if not 80+). Me not cannoning is really just me being lazy & not wanting to risk (whenever you carry cannon or re-pick it up to prevent degrade, you risk chaotic). Though cannoning positioning is really what makes or break how effective the cannon is, and I never really got good at that. Effective cannon placement doesn't only mean faster kills - it also means if you can pray range on supreme and SS on rex consistently, or if you have prime randomly on you and having to keep mage pray up.

You totally ignored prayer restore. Also those numbers are pretty off.

Why is ely still going for 1b if it's buyable in GE for max for 1-4 days?

soloing clans is imo fun. then you can brag like me :P (1v20, 1v10 130's, 1v6 137's i have all won :))

I agree with the point about the 50M. I said in one my earlier replies that this is probably the most important reason to use EE over SGS. Same can be said for skills though - if you don't want to do elites or don't want to train skills, that's one good reason to use SGS over EE. Just happens that most people have the skills for elite but don't have an extra 50M lying around. But for people who really care about certain small advantages, or don't flip (like me), SGS can still be worth it.

If you're 2.5ing correctly you will be tanking supreme a lot of the time... you should never kill prime and have supreme on you. My assertion is that both are approximately equal and they have situational benefits over the other. The math backs the "approximately equal" (assuming 100% accuracy, which is slightly off but reasonably within the margin of error). The part I don't see a point in arguing about is the situational benefits because those are so dependent on preference.

What does it mean to be a melee-based magic attack if it's not affected by attack or defense? :-s Even though it has 100% accuracy, the game still counts it as a "combat type". In this case, the weapon is a magic-based melee attack (sorry I had a typo on that earlier) due to the fact it makes TD's protect from magic. If it wasn't set to a particular combat style, it would not alter the TD's prayer change at all. TD's are pretty much the only way to accurately identify the combat type of an item. So how do you know it's magic-based melee and not a straight-up magic attack? Depends on how you define the two. I don't think there's a big distinction in this case because defense plays no role. It's odd because it uses strength to calculate damage, and needs to be used within one square of your opponent. Everything else is magic.

100% accuracy is not perfect - I agree. But it's still an assumption I made, and stated, to make the calculations easier. The deviation from these theoretical values, is in my opinion, small. Your opinion is that they aren't. Neither of us is clearly right until we have data to back up our claims. EEE and SGS are both better than each other situationally. It isn't a perfect analogy to CLS vs Rapier because CLS's situational benefits over rapier are much smaller than SGS's situational benefits over EEE. But you don't think so - which is fine, that's just your opinion, and this is mine. You could really just argue that gaining 40M in capital for an SGS is more useful than getting stats to be a well-rounded player. But again, that boils down to personal preference. I don't really see a point in arguing this with you anymore. It's clear that we have pretty different assumptions and there's no point trying to convince the other without data.

FSH? What is that? By that logic, I also have to account for the time it takes to finish the elites and the stats required, etc. And then I have to make a lot more assumptions on how people value their time and how people evaulate skilling time. Which is all subjective. That's why I'm ignoring all of those costs. Everyone can make that part of the decision themselves. I'm only looking at which one is better from a perspective of actual use. We can't determine accuracy reliably without any data. It's just a total guess. If you really care, I'll just rephrase my conclusion: "SGS and EEE have very similar theoretical gains in inventory saved per special bar."

I'm not saying SGS is, in all cases, significantly better. I'm saying there are certain benefits to both that really make it a matter of personal preference, and that neither is categorically better than the other. It's highly situational. You can use an overload timer. You didn't prove EEE is significantly better in most situations. Yes, it has its benefits which you mentioned, but so does SGS. Also, I would say rapier is about 80-90% accurate on supreme. SGS has a significantly higher slash bonus than rapier's stab bonus and has an accuracy boost for its spec. Therefore, it should be more accurate than rapier.

If you don't bring a fury and use protect item, you'd lose some of your offensive force, just like when you have to do damage with an inferior(SGS) weapons instead of rapier. You haven't accounted for this. Just like accuracy. SGS is MUCH worse for DK's. MUCH. Just as it's worse for bandos, TD's and slayer, even though offensive specs would be better for those. Not to mention, when you aren't using overloads, you get a good boost for defense, which you don't with SGS. Face it, the unreliability of SGS is also a major factor, as well as having to be below 690 lp when speccing(which you also didn't account for). Fury is +2 strength compared to glory, and you use arcstream most of the time anyway. The only real loss is 12 defense and 2 prayer, but again - you're using arcstream most of the time. We'll have to test out SGS accuracy against supreme to make any hard conclusions. Otherwise both of us are handwaving. To guarentee full EEE healing you also have to spec right when you ovl or start at 590 HP.

not necessarily for supreme. SGS on supreme is useful in that it, depending on how fast you brew, or if you're using sharks, can save you an attack turn that you otherwise would have spent eating. this is what makes sgs's offense capabilities so unique: it's an accurate, powerful hit that also heals you. however, you need your opponent to have relatively low defense for this to work out reliably. that's what i meant. Errm, firstly, you'd still lose those attack turns on supreme instead of using rapier, let alone claws, or even dagger. Secondly, as you'd be using overloads, the infrequent healing would be immensely inferior to EEE which heals most of overload damage, when it is needed. Thirdly, the risk matters alot for DK's- SGS could be the difference of losing/keeping rapier, when EEE is never an issue. I'd still like you to tell us one place where EEE would be significantly better than SGS, particularly as there are quite a few where the opposite is true(particularly bosshunting with overloads). Depends: if you ovl around when you're killing supreme, SGS will be way better. If you ovl around when you're killing rex, you can SS and thus postpone your spec. Mainly when you ovl and are killing prime (which is rarely) or rex without SS, EEE is better. Also, if you don't bring a fury and use prot item, SGS won't protect over rapier. On a rough approximation: SGS is better for: supreme, bandos(?), TD's(?), slayer EEE is better for: arma, solo rex Though, claws or KS will probably be best for: Bandos, TD's

not necessarily for supreme. SGS on supreme is useful in that it, depending on how fast you brew, or if you're using sharks, can save you an attack turn that you otherwise would have spent eating. this is what makes sgs's offense capabilities so unique: it's an accurate, powerful hit that also heals you. however, you need your opponent to have relatively low defense for this to work out reliably. that's what i meant.

Again, there are situations where SGS's spec is actually useful for offense. Example: supreme, where his defense is quite low to begin with.

True, and in those situations EEE will be slightly better. Even so, the actual max of SGS is slightly higher than the one I assumed so that partially compensates for this accuracy assumption. Also, accuracy is still really quite high (higher than a normal GS hit).

No, I averaged the SGS spec hit. an integral divided by the width of the interval represents an average. And like I mentioned, the SGS spec attacks are more accurate and slightly stronger than a normal SGS hit. In some situations these attacks are actually better than normal hits, even with a rapier (pvp with tank armor) ... I think in the end, it will mostly come down to the fact that SGS costs 40M and EEE is free. However, to a lot of players 40M is not a lot, and SGS can very effectively fill certain niches (certain PvM situations, certain PvP situations).

Is EEE really better than an SGS? Let's do some math. Assumptions: SGS spec max is 600, which is slightly under the real max Assume 100% accuracy. This is reasonable because if you cannot hit your opponent there are usually minions which you can spec off of Assume 70-99 prayer. Assume 90-99 HP. Then, the average healing of SGS will be given by the expression: 1/600*integral(Piecewise[{{100, 0<=x<200}, {x/2, 200<=x<600}}],x,0,600) Which evaluates to 500/3, or 166.7 You can do two specs with one full spec bar. Thus, a spec bar will heal you, on average, 333.3 LP. The average prayer restore of SGS will be given by the expression: (1/2)*1/60*integral(Piecewise[{{10, 0<=x<20}, {x/2, 20<=x<60}}],x,0,60) Which evaluates to 25/3, or 8.33. You can do two specs with one full spec bar. Thus, a spec bar will restore you, on average, 16.66 prayer points. Therefore, by choosing SGS over EEE, you on average trade 66.6 LP of healing to gain 16.66 Prayer points. This corresponds to a ratio of 4:1 LP:PP Analysis: Inventory Space Efficiency One prayer pot restores approximately 100-120 prayer points. One super prayer pot restores approximately 130-160 prayer points. One brew restores approximately 600 LP. Thus, for one inventory space and only using prayer pots, you lose 5-6:1 LP:PP. In other words, prayer potions are more expensive in terms of food to prayer point ratio than SGS spec. Using super prayer pots, you lose approximately 4:1 LP:PP. When using prayer pots/restores and brews, an SGS is more inventory-space efficient. When using super prayer pots, an EE is more inventory-space efficient. Analysis: Cost efficiency One prayer pot costs around 7K. One brew costs around 6K. One prayer pot restores approximately 100-120 prayer points. One super prayer pot restores approximately 130-160 prayer points. One brew restores approximately 600 LP. EEE saves you 400 LP, or 2/3 of a brew (~ 4K) per spec. SGS saves you 333 LP, or 5/9 of a brew (~ 3.33K). It also saves you 16.66 prayer points, or 5/33 of a prayer potion (~ 1K). SGS is slightly more cost efficient than an EE. Analysis: Other factors SGS is better when you need immediate healing. SGS healing is more random and thus less reliable. SGS introduces one more item you need to protect. SGS is also useful to do damage because its accuracy and strength are increased for the special attack. SGS is expensive. SGS is more useful when using non-brew healing methods (unicorn, SS) EEE requires many skills. EEE is more useful for overload timing. EEE does not require you to use melee for the spec. Conclusion SGS and EEE are still comparable. Both have benefits and drawbacks. SGS is not outdated. They are about equal in both inventory-space efficiency and cost-efficiency. The differences between the two are within the margin of error.

Yep its scientific fact just like: You're guaranteed dharok helm every 2.5 hours at barrows. Every 12 hours you get a visage from frost dragons or a godsword from godwars. 4mil/hr is guaranteed to think otherwise would be ignorant. :arrow: :rolleyes: And this is why we have this post, lol. I mean if you really want to troll I can claim 5M or 6M an hour, but whatever

Costs 250k to replace; might as well be free. I would say it's balanced for pvp worlds, just not any safe pvp....

SO CLOSE TO GETTING A FULL SET OF DROPS IN ONE TRIP... ALL I NEEDED WAS A SEERS RING FML Trip time: 2h30min Gross Profit: 13M Total Profit today: 30M Total Kills: 500+

Also, it is fairy balanced. It's weaker than a whip, and the spec takes 60% of your bar, 54% with a RoV, which means you'll have to wait a bit, then activate the second spec, then wait even longer... unless you use a Special Restore (like Dragon Claw Speccers) etc. No, "medium level" at best. Those skills are doable in like 20-30 hours.