De_Lille_D

In a player-to-GE economy, even if no one ever had a D pickaxe drop, people would still to be able to get one from the GE, and frankly, I don't see what's wrong with that. If they want people to go after it themselves, they can just raise the price until monster hunting dworges because a good money making method. I have faith that Jagex will balance out the item's stats, the drop rate and the price at release; they're a big company after all, I don't think it would really be that hard.

I'd like to hear the arguments of anyone who is against such an economy (where Jagex controls the prices and you don't trade goods between players, but they get created/destroyed instead).

In my spreadsheets, I let people input their own data: money/hour, time to get a SC Tool, ... You used fixed values. Also, your final decision is based on gp/xp, while I use time/exp... (We'll discuss this through PM) For everyone: don't ask for permission to access the spreadsheets. I'd download them to my computer and upload them somewhere, but for now, they need fixing and I just don't have the time. Also, if anyone is interested to help me and Mor(i)onic =p tackle some of the issues I have, pm me.

The opposite of this would obviously be "phantom cash": when the supply of a certain item is way too high, Jagex steps in and exchange some of those items for cash they create. (This has already been partially used in Mobilizing Armies, where they incourage players to buy certain items in high suply (like maple long u) to exchange for MA credit.) I incourage this idea, but adding this would give Jagex control over prices. Personally, I have no problem with that, but some people do (especially manipulatirs). What are your views on an economy where Jagex controls prices and the GE would solely trade your cash for phantom items and your item for phantom cash instantly?

Good news, I now know how to save the worksheet as a file on my computer. I will then upload this file on my ISP's webspace or maybe even a backup at Megaupload or Rapidshare. Too bad my time for Runescape is very limited... I've begun entering the Crafting Calc with different methods.

Is there any way to save an invo spot? Because I think, if you carry Ring of Wealth in your invo during fight and at the end (right before you kill the demon), switch rings, your chance of getting claws would be increased, while not (much) affecting how much you hit.

Damn, forum update affected my layout... Hope it won't take too long to fix.

When discussing the problem of changing prices, I don't think you have to change 'what' we trade, but we have to change 'how' we trade. In my opinion, Jagex should have removed player controlled prices when they came up with GE. It doesn't bring anything positive to the game and allows for the bad things you mentioned to happen. I even ask myself why we need a player-to-player economy, when the GE could transform items into money and vice versa instantly... Limiting raw materials trade would be bad for high level players. If someone has 91 RC, they can make up to 1M per hour (might not be acurate anymore, but it's still a lot). Now, they just RC for 2 hours and buy anything they need. If they had to gather everything themselves, they would lose a lot of time! Let's take Fletching for example: nowadays, if you want 99, you just buy Yew Logs and Bowstrings, then fletch and sell/High Alch. But if you can't buy those items, you'll have to cut your yew logs, and spin your flax and maybe even pick that flax while you're at it! That means those 2 hours you would have spent RCing now became 5 hours... I know you like comparing to WoW, but Runescape takes a lot longer to max out (I think). Limiting raw materials would make that even longer. Limiting GE to 1Mill a day would stop merchanting clans, but would also stop you from buying anything more valuable than 1 Mill. I don't think the average Runescape players' money addiction is a result from the GE. Doing what you're best at all day long and then selling the result is the whole reason people trade: to save time; because it would take a lot longer, if they had to do everything a little instead of something specific for a long time. If you want less people going after a lot of money, first of all, just transform all rares into money: this would remove the need for a lot of people to gain that much money. Secondly, bring out more skills like Slayer or Summoning: they can't be bought like Prayer or Fletching, so they depend mostly on the time (not the money) you put into them.

1) Rules are everywhere. If you remove the rules, all that is left is chaos. I've just seen too many good threads become sidetracked on unimportant details to allow it to happen to any of mine. 2) Won't get much creativity? You're the one copying someone else's idea... 3) If you can't express your point without referring to something I know very little about, I'm not to blame. 4) Is that supposed to be an insult? Not very effective I'm afraid since I have no idea what you mean. Seriously, I don't understand what you're getting al worked up about. I was just asking to make sure I understood what you are talking about.

Firstly, this would be free-for-all, not team-based, and secondly, I don't recall people saying you lose all your items to the person who killed you in WoW. I understand that you might associate this idea with WoW, but seeing as my knowledge regarding the subject is limited, I suggest we keep these kind of analogies to a minimum.

1) It wouldn't be only the Wildy. It's like the Pvp Worlds now, but with full drops. 2) It's basically the same, but an amount of tokens might make it easier to understand for some. (BTW it wasn't suggested yet) 3) I have never played WoW so I can't really compare, but I doubt you can just attack anyone you want. (Please don't make this thread about WoW)

1) You have a point, but don't forget that Jagex can control the pvp economy prices, thereby making skilling way more profitable than it is now. This also adds a new aspect of hunting the skillers ... 2) We aren't discussing if the implementation is realistic or not; I just want to explore what is necessary to make full drops possible. 3) I'm going to have burst your bubble there, because there's an easy way to still RWT there: Macro/Gold Farming accounts just become pures and on low hours they meet up in those worlds. If they get their target, they die intentionally and lose their superior equipment; if not, they fight normally and have an equally good chance to win (greater even, because they could switch to players who are better at pking). Also, if you can't just make a single word for Full Drop Dueling: too many people would want in. Also, if you can use protect item it's even easier: RWTers bring a single good item (AGS, Spirit shield, DFS, ...) and die intentionally with protect item until they get teamed with target where they don't use the pray. As long as they don't have food, they can't lose their item (if they did, others could use smite).

1) They'll still make money, but that money can only be used in Pvp... There's just no other way to have full drops without RTWing! 2) Of course this will have a huge impact on the real economy, but what did you expect? But I'm not convinced that this is necessarily a bad change ... It's not like the economy won't function anymore without pking. 3) Perhaps not, but this debate is focused on "what if we HAD to come up with a Full Drop (No RWTing) alternative". 1) Yes. No items can transfer between normal and Pvp worlds. 2) No. Gp is an item. 3) The Starting Cash formula isn't something we'll discuss here. Just assume it's fair, so that you get more money for more Pk Points and no money at all for 0 Points (and max keep 50k). Don't forget that unless you reset banks, there will be people with high Pk Points who will buy stuff from RWTers. 4) True, but people were always ready to invest cash they got from skilloing into pking. Or maybe we can let Jagex throw in an extra something for impressive kills (not so much to let people kill each other just for those extras). I have no idea how it was before, but if everyone always picks up all the drops, no money will get lost. Now, we know that isn't going to happen ... But people can still skill for their money and if Jagex controls the prices, it should be easier to make money on those worlds. (Thye still decide how easy...) 1) I'm not sure Jagex is trying to get rid of pkers ... Money from them is money as well. I think their main concern is making a game that is pleasant to play for all. 2) In such a big game, there will always be complaining. But that shouldn't stop you from improving your game. 3) Again, we're just looking for a way to replace pking; not a reason to.

I think the problem is that a lot of people don't understand how probability works.... Jagex once explained how they calculate drops (to show the influence of the ring of wealth): There are basically 2 wheels: one for normal drops and one for special drops. On the normal wheel, there's an outcome that will spin the special drops wheel. Ring of wealth increased the chance of getting that special drop outcome. (etc.) I know this is kinda outdated (with charms being dropped and all), but the basic idea has most likely stayed the same. Therefore it's safe to assume they use the time (or rather the milliseconds) at which the monster dies to calculate the drop (this is used a lot in programming, because it is considered random). Which means you can't be due for a drop ... Everybody knows that the chance of throwing a 6 with a dice is 1/6. Well, even if you've thrown 10 times not 6 before, that doesn't change your chance of the next throw having a 6. The same is true for drops: if the chance is 1/100, it doesn't matter if you've been killing for 4 hours, or if you just arrived. Each kill has to be considered separately. Also: Wrong: CS sells item for lowest on GE. This means you lose 10% as opposed to get it with LS...

I think the D Kite is to DFS, as what D long is to Whip... If it'd come out before, then maybe it would have been good for a while. But now I don't think there's a lot of point: it would either totally clash with predictions or be used only for looks...

Intro: Ever since the trade limit got introduced, there has been at least one thread in one of the first 5 pages of the Pvp Suggestions called "|3R1nG B4c|< 0ld VVilc|y !!1!1!!! Of course they have been ignored for the simple fact that such a suggestion would obviously bring back RWTing, followed by all it's problems (scams, stolen credit cards, sweatshops, ...). Now, I've decided to give this a little more thought and see if I can come up with a way to provide Full Drops without enabling RWTing. I guess I'll start by showing you my idea and how I got to it. Then you can comment on it, so we can try to find loopholes or ways why it won't work. Eventually, I hope to find a foolproof way to replace the Pvp worlds with a better alternative. Let's get started: So, our goal is to offer Full Drops, meaning you get all the tradeable items your opponent lost on death when you kill someone in Pvp/BH worlds, but without causing RWTing. [Altered GE = GE that allows you to trade with the game rather than with players. This would mean that selling your stuff would be the same as changing it into money and buying would be changing your money into items.] (See 7 and 8) 1) First of all, we'll have to split normal and Pvp Bank. Meaning that any items you get in Pvp worlds can not be taken back to normal worlds for obvious reasons (RWTing). 2) Secondly, the Pvp bank should be reseted every so often, because I'm sure that people would still pay real money for items, even if they are only for Pvp. 3) This also implies that the normal economy and the pking economy should be kept seperate, because items would disappear after a while, making the items more rare and thus driving up the price. And even if the items would be sold back at the GE, cash would evaporate... This would result in inflation like you've never seen before.This means being rich on normal worlds does not make you rich on Pvp worlds. 4) If the bank is going to rest once every week/month/... (the reset period), you'll need some money to get started after a reset, because we know that pkers hate skilling and won't spend time getting things that will disappear after a while. We'll call this Starting Cash. This also explains why there have to be 2 separate banks, or else all the banks would be reseted every so often and I don't think that's a good idea. 5) How much starting cash you get would depend on how good you pk, in order to stop people to ask all their non-pking friends to give them their starting cash, or to even pay RWTers to get their starting cash. You could think of a PK Points system to award/ subtract points depending on your kills/deaths (but let's leave that for later). If you hit 0 Pk points, you won't get any starting cash at all and will have to make money the old fashioned way/make your own weapons and food and try to get your Pk points up before next reset. 6) Obviously, your exp on normal worlds and Pvp worlds would be the same; meaning if you have 85 Woodcutting on normal worlds, you'll also have 85 on Pvp worlds. Any exp gotten in Pvp worlds would count towards your next level. 7) You should be able to buy any items from an Altered GE (even rare monster drops or void). Where else would you get whips? Are you going to camp at abyssal demons when you know your bank will be reset later on? 8) You should be able to sell any drops to an Altered GE. Because most of the time, you won't be able to use the dropped items. Therefore they will be left on the ground and money will constantly decrease in Pvp worlds ... 9) From 7 and 8 I deduce that it would be better not to have a bank for items at all.Your bank would only contain money. The items you would normally deposit will be transformed into money, which can later be used to buy all the items you need from the Altered GE. [Maybe you could upgrade the banks to put a GE interface in every bank.] 10) If items are going to be transformed to cash and back constantly, prices should remain fixed in the Pvp economy, since the GE doesn't trade amongst players anyway. Perhaps the prices shall be set when the Pvp "banks" are reset and kept fixed until the next reset. Another option would be for Jagex to control the prices. This would make it easier to make money on Pvp worlds, once you've lost it all. 11) If this suggestion gets released, each account will be given a certain amount of pk points, but from then on, all new accounts would have 0 pk points. This is to stop RWTers to constantly make new accounts to access the starting cash. 12) If you have 0 pk points, but have a certain amount of cash (max. maybe 50k) in bank at reset, you'll keep that amount, so that you can at least buy a decent woodcutting axe or something like that... If you have no cash in bank however, you will get nothing at next reset. Reason why this would not allow RWTing: Basically, the fact that any in-game items would only be temporary will greatly bring down the price (it's more like renting an item ...). Also, assuming they will attempt to make bots to use in those worlds, these bots will most likely have 0 pk points and thus have to make all the money the want to transfer from scratch. If you make the reset period short enough, they won't have enough time to make enough gp to sell before next reset... Conclusion: Well, that's what I think. Now let the discussion begin! Please state clearly which point you want to discuss. Keep it a friendly debate: this means no spamming/flaming/... If you want to suggest a new point/ a new description to a point, feel free to do so. _

You can now ask Dell Monti in Brimhaven for 40 pineapples when wearing karamja gloves. So after Brimhaven Fruit tree, talk to him.

Yeah that kinda kills it. Maybe there's another undead slayer creature; I can't think of one.

But remember he is also saying to use void. So it would be Void + Salve (e) vs. Slayer Helm + Fury + Barrows/Bandos + Barrows Gloves. Still doesn't seem worth it imo, esp. since you're giving up a lot of defense. However, if you had an undead task where you were going to pray anyway (like Aberrant Spectres), defense wouldn't matter. Then it would be: Void + Salve(e) vs. Slayer helm + Fury + Barrow gloves + (Torso + Tasset)/(Proselyte Top + Bottom) When comparing these, you'd have to consider the attack bonuses, but also prayer or food used. Therefore I think the only way to find out which is better, is to test it out. So, next time time you get an Aberrant task, keep track of how long the task took you and how much you spend on supplies.

Not to mention he doesn't have Bunyip yet, which is a HUGE help here, especially with all the raw fish drops.

Yeah, I agree that you have the levels, but that isn't worth anything if you can't keep your cool with Jad. 1 Mess-up and bam, there go 2 hours of work ... But in my opinion, you don't need it. An alternative to fire cape are the god cloaks (from Treasure Trails) which give good prayer bonuses.

A few things that come to mind: * enhanced excaliber: spec = hp * decent familiars: i use mainly terrorbird, bunyip and golem (look for Inushakents Summonning guide in AoW) * void range for safespotting * cannon, if you can afford the cannonballs * firecape helps in the long run + looks cool * holy wrench: free prayer points * karil and ss for waterfiends * any godsword for gargoyles * SGS: has best spec for Slayer * about 30 glories, combat bracelets, rings of slaying, game necklaces, dueling rings for teleing * pineapple pizzas for food (you can eat the whole thing as one, if you click fast enough) * always use super set and prayer (10% strength boost)

Lol your title sounds like a new Runescape disease ...

Check my siggy.