The 'Official' "I think Religion/Agnosticism is bunk" thread

[Ard_Choille]

Sidebar argument removed from this thread by request of those involved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please report anything I missed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Ard

[warri0r45]

 

 

 

 

Interesting. If we don't know everything and the bible does not contain every truth, why not try to uncover more of that truth? Or would you rather stay in the dark you're whole life?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You see science (call it what you want, man's best guess, man's speculation, whatever. It has it's limitations but it is the best thing we have from an objectie standpoint) can fill in the blanks for us and I believe (if I were a theist) that god gave us this incredible gift of inquiry, logic and reasoning to help us find out what we don't know. I also believe (if I were a theist) that we will never truly know everything about this universe as that would make us on par with god. It's when we go to heaven (you see, there is no hell. It's only through our fear, tainted egos and shaded eyes that we don't see that god's love is eternal and there's no need to fear, need or want. Ever) that everything is revealed to us in some Nirvana-esque instance and we subsequently become on par with god. We get to be mates and go to the pub for a beer, you see?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Bible is sufficient for me to live my life by. That doesn't mean scientific discoveries are pointless. If science doesn't contradict the Bible I'm more then happy to believe in it. However, if I'm supposed to live by either the Bible or science aka man's speculation, my choice would be the Bible as I consider it to be the truth. Science can never be the truth, as it can change. It's a framework to explain some aspects of the world. It doesn't answer metaphysical question and that's why I consider philosophy to be more interesting. Philosophy is something everyone can discuss, whereas science requires observation and research, which is also the reason I'm not interested in a detailed evolutionary debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding your "if I was a theist view", I don't share your view. I do believe in hell, as it's pretty clear it's a reality if you read the Bible. However, even if we don't share our views we can still go to the pub. Though I'm not much of a drinker, so you'd be better off bringing someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I will concede that science can never know something 100% and is accountable and therefore changable, I would argue that it is a better test of truth than the bible. We have different beliefs there about truth and where it comes from. No big deal. Here's why I think science is a better judge:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) It's more objective than any religion and without a doubt the most objective system of inquiry man has ever produced. As a result, we can generally (although not always, case in point evolution) accept findings made and the method is such that anyone can analyse, criticise and even test for themselves if they so wish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) It's accountable and fluid; it canges. Your argument is that something that changes so much can't possibly be the bringer of truth. Fair enough, but for me that fact is proof of man's fallibility and weaknesses. We aren't perfect and can make mistakes thus science is set up so it can change and get rid of mistakes. By that logic I could argue that science is pointing closer towards the truth every day as we gain more knowlege, yet it will never have the exact coordinates of or a picture of truth as I'd say there is simply to great a scale of inquiry for that (take string theory, for example. People are theorising that the fundamentals of this universe are made of incresingly smaller particles. Strings are supposedly what make up everything according to this theory and they are smaller than any particle known). Added to this accountability, I have the advantage of knowing what science knows can never be completely wrong, only parts of it can be. You are fully entitled to believe that the bible is the absolute truth, but due to that fact that it is not accountable for change, if it is actually wrong and say, hinduism is correct, then you would be following something which is false.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We believe different things on the whole truth issue, that's apparant. No big deal really. The only instance where I get annoyed with religion is when followers try and disprove credible science on the basis that it dosen't coincide with thier beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just wanted to clear up one thing with you. Do you accept that the Bible has omissions? If so, perhaps evolution was left out? perhaps eve, a woman, a symbol of humanity being made from dust and the rib of another living thing (although also a human) could be symbolic of the changes over time of evolution which brought about humans. Just a thought.

[Korskin]

 

 

 

I just wanted to clear up one thing with you. Do you accept that the Bible has omissions? If so, perhaps evolution was left out? perhaps eve, a woman, a symbol of humanity being made from dust and the rib of another living thing (although also a human) could be symbolic of the changes over time of evolution which brought about humans. Just a thought.

 

 

 

I don't think that evolution was left out and there are no omissions God didn't intend. And even if the theory of evolution was left out, it would still contradict the current creation story in the Bible. If you need to know why I think they are incompatible, read my earlier posts. I generally don't like an interpretation where you assume the evolution theory is true and try to fit it in.

[Barihawk]

 

*Wonders if Assassin is ever going to finish that article*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Crikey that took some reading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, I will concede that I didn't fully understand the historical context of the incident. I misinterpreted it, sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, my point stands that the God of the Old Testament is one that frequently ordered acts that by today's standards would be deemed cruel and unncessary, and these were particularly well carried out by people who we consider pillars of faith in modern society.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just have to remember how old the book you are reading is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Things that might be shocking and apalling to us now were commonplace back then. It was a cruel time.

[Viktorkrum77]

That was a huge split. :P

[warri0r45]

 

 

 

 

I just wanted to clear up one thing with you. Do you accept that the Bible has omissions? If so, perhaps evolution was left out? perhaps eve, a woman, a symbol of humanity being made from dust and the rib of another living thing (although also a human) could be symbolic of the changes over time of evolution which brought about humans. Just a thought.

 

 

 

I don't think that evolution was left out and there are no omissions God didn't intend. And even if the theory of evolution was left out, it would still contradict the current creation story in the Bible. If you need to know why I think they are incompatible, read my earlier posts. I generally don't like an interpretation where you assume the evolution theory is true and try to fit it in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, your interpretation is up to you, but why would you believe in an unchanging truth with ommisions, be they god intended or not? The bible dosen't contain all truths of the universe, we all know that. Why is it that things were left out? God thought we couldn't handle it? Perhaps he wants us to fill the gaps with science. There are gaps, plenty of them, really. perhaps you would find it boring to have every possible truth at your disposal in a book. I know I would. That's why I use science to fill gaps. Again, what you believe about this is up to you. Whenever I argue beliefs (as I am doing; my comment on god wanting us to fill gaps with science is just that, a belief) I will always question others viewpoint, not try to change them.

[Korskin]

 

 

 

Of course, your interpretation is up to you, but why would you believe in an unchanging truth with ommisions, be they god intended or not? The bible dosen't contain all truths of the universe, we all know that. Why is it that things were left out? God thought we couldn't handle it? Perhaps he wants us to fill the gaps with science. There are gaps, plenty of them, really. perhaps you would find it boring to have every possible truth at your disposal in a book. I know I would. That's why I use science to fill gaps. Again, what you believe about this is up to you. Whenever I argue beliefs (as I am doing; my comment on god wanting us to fill gaps with science is just that, a belief) I will always question others viewpoint, not try to change them.

 

 

 

I don't think the gaps are that important. I believe you should focus on what God wants to say to us, not what he doesn't want to say to us. Sure, you might find pleasure in new scientific discoveries but they don't often give me any directions on how to live my life.

[warri0r45]

 

 

 

 

Of course, your interpretation is up to you, but why would you believe in an unchanging truth with ommisions, be they god intended or not? The bible dosen't contain all truths of the universe, we all know that. Why is it that things were left out? God thought we couldn't handle it? Perhaps he wants us to fill the gaps with science. There are gaps, plenty of them, really. perhaps you would find it boring to have every possible truth at your disposal in a book. I know I would. That's why I use science to fill gaps. Again, what you believe about this is up to you. Whenever I argue beliefs (as I am doing; my comment on god wanting us to fill gaps with science is just that, a belief) I will always question others viewpoint, not try to change them.

 

 

 

I don't think the gaps are that important. I believe you should focus on what God wants to say to us, not what he doesn't want to say to us. Sure, you might find pleasure in new scientific discoveries but they don't often give me any directions on how to live my life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that what god wants to say to us can't possibly be confined to a finite book, therefore he gave us science. Just because it's not in the bible dosen't mean god dosen't want us to know about it. We are finite beings, god is infinite. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume god wants us to know more than can be told in a finite book.

[Korskin]

 

 

 

I believe that what god wants to say to us can't possibly be confined to a finite book, therefore he gave us science. Just because it's not in the bible dosen't mean god dosen't want us to know about it. We are finite beings, god is infinite. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume god wants us to know more than can be told in a finite book.

 

 

 

My question/point is: What is more important for the followers of God, what the Bible says or everything that the Bible doesn't say? Science seems more like a hobby to me rather than necessary for a life with God.

[Adam007]

 

 

 

 

Of course, your interpretation is up to you, but why would you believe in an unchanging truth with ommisions, be they god intended or not? The bible dosen't contain all truths of the universe, we all know that. Why is it that things were left out? God thought we couldn't handle it? Perhaps he wants us to fill the gaps with science. There are gaps, plenty of them, really. perhaps you would find it boring to have every possible truth at your disposal in a book. I know I would. That's why I use science to fill gaps. Again, what you believe about this is up to you. Whenever I argue beliefs (as I am doing; my comment on god wanting us to fill gaps with science is just that, a belief) I will always question others viewpoint, not try to change them.

 

 

 

I don't think the gaps are that important. I believe you should focus on what God wants to say to us, not what he doesn't want to say to us. Sure, you might find pleasure in new scientific discoveries but they don't often give me any directions on how to live my life.

 

 

 

Why do you need direction? Why do you need to be told how to live your life? You honestly think a life following directions is better than a life of exploration?

[Continuum]

You don't necessarily have to cast off religion in order to live an adventure. Religion provides a secondary source of peace among the populace. Some people will figure that the law is overrated, but might not commit crimes because they're afraid of offending God. Religion provides peace and order, guidelines and rules for those who need direction in life, then developed into the secondary source.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope that made some sense at least.

[Korskin]

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, your interpretation is up to you, but why would you believe in an unchanging truth with ommisions, be they god intended or not? The bible dosen't contain all truths of the universe, we all know that. Why is it that things were left out? God thought we couldn't handle it? Perhaps he wants us to fill the gaps with science. There are gaps, plenty of them, really. perhaps you would find it boring to have every possible truth at your disposal in a book. I know I would. That's why I use science to fill gaps. Again, what you believe about this is up to you. Whenever I argue beliefs (as I am doing; my comment on god wanting us to fill gaps with science is just that, a belief) I will always question others viewpoint, not try to change them.

 

 

 

I don't think the gaps are that important. I believe you should focus on what God wants to say to us, not what he doesn't want to say to us. Sure, you might find pleasure in new scientific discoveries but they don't often give me any directions on how to live my life.

 

 

 

Why do you need direction? Why do you need to be told how to live your life? You honestly think a life following directions is better than a life of exploration?

 

 

 

It doesn't start with me needing directions. I believe in God. He created man and has a plan for mankind. Therefore I want to know his will. If I'm guided by God I'm on the right path. If I'm guided by myself I'm more than likely not.

[Tigra00]

 

 

 

 

Of course, your interpretation is up to you, but why would you believe in an unchanging truth with ommisions, be they god intended or not? The bible dosen't contain all truths of the universe, we all know that. Why is it that things were left out? God thought we couldn't handle it? Perhaps he wants us to fill the gaps with science. There are gaps, plenty of them, really. perhaps you would find it boring to have every possible truth at your disposal in a book. I know I would. That's why I use science to fill gaps. Again, what you believe about this is up to you. Whenever I argue beliefs (as I am doing; my comment on god wanting us to fill gaps with science is just that, a belief) I will always question others viewpoint, not try to change them.

 

 

 

I don't think the gaps are that important. I believe you should focus on what God wants to say to us, not what he doesn't want to say to us. Sure, you might find pleasure in new scientific discoveries but they don't often give me any directions on how to live my life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And what does God want to say to us?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The truth is, you don't even know God's word anymore. You just don't. Humans have completely corrupted it. I'd wager that everything bad in the Bible is complete BS humans made up to keep people in line. I'm talking about "Hell" and stuff. I'm sure it's made up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...And if it isn't, then God's message is "Bow or Burn." and I will easily dismiss that as human BS, too, because it is ILLOGICAL for God to create to torture. "Yes, but he gave us a choice..." you'll say. I will simply respond "There is no choice in that." because there isn't. A more logical thing would be to reward the faithful, and give the unfaithful simply nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Humans have made God out to be something to be feared, and if he does exist, he ISN'T something to be feared. People are always saying how they think the eventual immorality of the Earth will bring Jesus back...But in truth, I think the stupidity and lies of the church will eventually bring Jesus back. The church and it's followers like to think they are somehow immune to God thinking they are [developmentally delayed]s...I have faith that if he does exist, he's looking down on a LOT of the "faithful" and shaking his head in disgust.

[Korskin]

 

 

 

And what does God want to say to us?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The truth is, you don't even know God's word anymore. You just don't. Humans have completely corrupted it. I'd wager that everything bad in the Bible is complete BS humans made up to keep people in line. I'm talking about "Hell" and stuff. I'm sure it's made up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...And if it isn't, then God's message is "Bow or Burn." and I will easily dismiss that as human BS, too, because it is ILLOGICAL for God to create to torture. "Yes, but he gave us a choice..." you'll say. I will simply respond "There is no choice in that." because there isn't. A more logical thing would be to reward the faithful, and give the unfaithful simply nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Humans have made God out to be something to be feared, and if he does exist, he ISN'T something to be feared. People are always saying how they think the eventual immorality of the Earth will bring Jesus back...But in truth, I think the stupidity and lies of the church will eventually bring Jesus back. The church and it's followers like to think they are somehow immune to God thinking they are [developmentally delayed]...I have faith that if he does exist, he's looking down on a LOT of the "faithful" and shaking his head in disgust.

 

 

 

I don't see God as someone who we should fear. I'm not a christian because I fear to end up in hell instead of heaven. By believing in God you are free and have no need to fear anything. God says in the Bible, fear not for I am with you. Since Jesus died for my sins there is nothing to fear and therefore I'm driven not by fear but of love for what he has done for me.

[monkeypie10]

Most Muslims are either

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

a) Cowards

 

 

 

B) Supportive of extremists

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. ( And trust me, I make very stupid comments.) Have you ever met a muslim? Ever talked to one for atleast 10 minutes? Have you ever lived in a muslim country? Do you even know what Islam teaches?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If all Muslims are cowards and supportive of extremists, I guess

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All Americans are fat.

 

 

 

Every American couple divorces.

 

 

 

All Americans love nudity.

 

 

 

Americans have no family morals.

 

 

 

Americans hate everyone but themselves.

 

 

 

Every Canadian sais "eh"

 

 

 

Every Canadian plays hockey.

[Bg_Paladin5]

I don't want to start a flame war,but...Forget about all proofs that He doesn't exist.He DOES exist.My heart tells me that he exists.And also all those mocking bull**** like Da Vinci code is,duh,bull****.I have a friend who is the chief archiver in the Patriarchy of Pec.He tells that we should read the Bible and not go into the analytic thinkings because most of Bible,especially Old Testament is badly translated.And about killing for God...That is stupid.He doesn't want us to kill anyone.It is a mortal sin!Thatt is the main difference between the Orthodox and Roman-Catholic church.One of the main reasons of the Great Schism in 1058. is:Should we kill people of other faith?We couldn't agree,so we splitted.And about the "Bow or burn",in Orthodox Christianity there is a philosophy that we can have a mortal sin,but we will still go to Heaven if we honestly say to God that we are sorry. :pray:

[Adam007]

I don't want to start a flame war,but...Forget about all proofs that He doesn't exist.He DOES exist.My heart tells me that he exists.

 

 

 

Oh, ok. That's comforting. Thanks for the news. I'll be sure to alert the internets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And also all those mocking bull**** like Da Vinci code is,duh,bull****.I have a friend who is the chief archiver in the Patriarchy of Pec.He tells that we should read the Bible and not go into the analytic thinkings because most of Bible,especially Old Testament is badly translated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You could learn hebrew and get it straight from the most uncorrupted source, you know. You never said why the Da Vinci code was 'bull' though. You just said it was, then you said your credible chief archiver friend said we shouldn't analytically think about the bible. I'm not saying either way about that book though. I see it more as hypothetical entertainment. Since you even brought it up it's obvious that the book is somewhat threatening to you and you do therefore take it seriously.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And about killing for God...That is stupid.He doesn't want us to kill anyone.It is a mortal sin!Thatt is the main difference between the Orthodox and Roman-Catholic church.One of the main reasons of the Great Schism in 1058. is:Should we kill people of other faith?We couldn't agree,so we splitted.

 

 

 

Well that's what's wrong with organized religion. When the religious heads need to kill in whatever period of time, they convince their people that it's for a holy reason and therefore ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And about the "Bow or burn",in Orthodox Christianity there is a philosophy that we can have a mortal sin,but we will still go to Heaven if we honestly say to God that we are sorry. :pray:

 

 

 

That's the great thing about Christianity. You can get away with whatever you want as long as you later repent. I sometimes wonder if people behave morally because they fear God's wrath or because they just know it's the right thing to do.

[warri0r45]

I don't want to start a flame war,but...Forget about all proofs that He doesn't exist.He DOES exist.My heart tells me that he exists.And also all those mocking bull**** like Da Vinci code is,duh,bull****.I have a friend who is the chief archiver in the Patriarchy of Pec.He tells that we should read the Bible and not go into the analytic thinkings because most of Bible,especially Old Testament is badly translated.And about killing for God...That is stupid.He doesn't want us to kill anyone.It is a mortal sin!Thatt is the main difference between the Orthodox and Roman-Catholic church.One of the main reasons of the Great Schism in 1058. is:Should we kill people of other faith?We couldn't agree,so we splitted.And about the "Bow or burn",in Orthodox Christianity there is a philosophy that we can have a mortal sin,but we will still go to Heaven if we honestly say to God that we are sorry. :pray:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GREAT song. :anxious:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway what Tigra said about the warping of god's word seems to have some grounding to me. Think about it guys, think about all of those fundamentalist preachers in the U.S. and other places whose only drive is to use god's word to make a quick buck, or to shove propoganda down your kids throats. People are beginning to miss the whole point of Christianity - LOVE. It's become such a vessel of fear for some dimwitted, slowminded, unfortunate folk that they begin to preach to thier freinds and spread messages of fear instead of love. All we should really take away from scripture or focus on is the messages of LOVE. Seriously guys, [bleep] genesis, [bleep] revelations, [bleep] all of that fear, hate, ethnic clensing, sin, satanic, sadistic bull and just talk about the LOVE of an eternal god who listens to Hendrix and whose brothers and sisters are everyone on this planet and when we all die, it's back to Woodstock 69'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(That was semi-serious, by the way. :P )

[Nitramosma]

...And if it isn't, then God's message is "Bow or Burn." and I will easily dismiss that as human BS, too, because it is ILLOGICAL for God to create to torture. "Yes, but he gave us a choice..." you'll say. I will simply respond "There is no choice in that." because there isn't. A more logical thing would be to reward the faithful, and give the unfaithful simply nothing.

 

 

 

Actually the last thing you said conforms perfectly with what I've heard from most priests in the Catholic church and some other religious. You are pretty much under God guaranteed an eternal existence. If you have faith then you go to heaven and live with God for all eternity. Whereas if you lack faith or choose willingly to sin then you get an eternal existence completely separated from God. The talks of a fiery hell were mainly to convince people of the time not to sin. They are using it as a metaphor for the pain one should experience by being completely severed from God for all eternity. Not to say that hell doesn't exist, but I see it a more of a meaningless existence rather than an existence of fire and brimstone.

[Biggieg333]

I think that religion has amd eour wonderful world go to hell in a handbasket. Let's think about the wars caused by some religious ideals:

 

 

 

1oo Years War

 

 

 

Terrorism War (Current War)

 

 

 

The Crusades

 

 

 

Those are just a couple of 'em. The point is, religion is pointless because it causes nothing but grief throughout lands. The Bible for instance, has all kinds of stories of Jesus saving people, like healing a blind man, and also bringing back from the dead. But there are also the stories of death, plague, and all the other horrible stuff involved in the bible. I mean, you can basically blame Moses AND God for the death of an indefinate number of soldiers form that king guys army by pulling the red sea back together. Why is that not a cause for some sort of charge of mass genocide or something? I mean, people get charged for something stupid, like driving with broken taillights, and God has gotten away, basically, with mass genocide??? That is a reason this country is so messed up. Off topic here, but just because people have money and can do something better for a job than most other people, doesn't mean they should geta different thing goin on in the court. Like when Paris Hilton got busted for drunk driving or something. She was just let off on a whim pretty much. Back on topic, And for someone so holy, why do people say that The Virgin Mary may have been all this crap like not being a "virgin"??? How can you even define that word today??? it gets so blown out of proportion every single time you hear by somebody, it's just impossible! I think that religion will be the cause of the end of the world. It will just start one massive freaking war that will completely wipe out humanity. And listen here people, if you think I'm so athiest jerk, you are wrong. I believe in a higher power, but I'm not somebody that has to waste my time going to a BUILDING which is called a church to worshiip a god. I may nto pray all the time. I may not use the correct language all the time. But that doesn't mean I still can't believe... Now, I'm done, any comments?

[Rebdragon]

I think that religion has amd eour wonderful world [bleep] in a handbasket. Let's think about the wars caused by some religious ideals:

 

 

 

1oo Years War

 

 

 

Terrorism War (Current War)

 

 

 

The Crusades

 

 

 

Those are just a couple of 'em. The point is, religion is pointless because it causes nothing but grief throughout lands.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I stopped reading right there. What is this crap? What, so you hear about the Crusades in history class, and all of a sudden everything religion does is evil?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christianity, as well as other religions, helps the world in many ways, especially when it comes to aiding the poor and forgotten. It's pathetic when people start talking about religion like it's pure evil... religion may not be perfect, but it's still been known to be a benefactor to society in indefinite ways.

[Biggieg333]

Well, i Bring that up because i feel it's important to note those things. Also, read my siggy.

[Rebdragon]

Well, i Bring that up because i feel it's important to note those things. Also, read my siggy.

 

 

 

If I think they're completely and utterly wrong, I feel a need to point that out. People don't post their opinions just to have people agree with them (and those who disagree stay quite), that's not a discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Try backing up your opinion instead of just avoiding the debate.

[Continuum]

Well, i Bring that up because i feel it's important to note those things. Also, read my siggy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, don't go around defending yourself with the reasoning that "If you don't like it, ignore it". It'll make everyone hate you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Biggieg does bring up the point of "Why do bad things happen in the world?" You know, I used to believe in God and all that just a few weeks ago, but I began to doubt my faith when right there, in my religion textbook approved by the Catholic Church and taught in our school, the exact following words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The true Catholic response to all the evil in the world and why God allows it is thus: we don't know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WTF?!?!?!

[Defender2516]

 

Well, i Bring that up because i feel it's important to note those things. Also, read my siggy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, don't go around defending yourself with the reasoning that "If you don't like it, ignore it". It'll make everyone hate you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Biggieg does bring up the point of "Why do bad things happen in the world?" You know, I used to believe in God and all that just a few weeks ago, but I began to doubt my faith when right there, in my religion textbook approved by the Catholic Church and taught in our school, the exact following words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The true Catholic response to all the evil in the world and why God allows it is thus: we don't know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[what the heck]?!?!?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I highly suggest you find a christian church who speaks the word of God for how it is. Seriously, if they don't know, they are blind. If they are blind, how can they lead? If they can't lead.. faith and truth comes not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evil is caused by the will of bad men and the influence of the devil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bad things happen because we have a choice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~