I just have to point something out here about the "big bang".

 

 

 

People say it just happened, that mass amounts of swiriling gas suddenly exploded (or something like that) Then why are the planets not all spinning the SAME WAY? And people say there has to be a begining for everything right? Then how did that gas/dirt get there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So to sum it all up:

 

 

 

I belive in the begining "God"

 

 

 

and you belive in the begining "dirt"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My youth group leader has lots of DVDs about this one guy talking about all these different subjects about Christianity, and he proves EVERY theory about the begining of the earth wrong. If you want I could get a DVD and post it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

His name is Kent Hovind, and you just quoted him 100%. Good job thinking for yourself. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He doesn't "prove" anything wrong. He's a dude who believes the Earth is only 6000 years old just because the Bible says so. He blatantly ignores all the history before that period and seems to think empires like Egypt were built in a day, or something. In short, he's insane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a good point though...All the planetary bodies that spin the wrong way are blamed on one thing - astroid impacts. Big ones. While it is possible, the chances of it ALL happening just like that, perfectly, is kinda' small when you think about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Warrior, go to http://www.drdino.com or google video, you can find all his seminars. They're interesting, but BS nonetheless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm trying to think how planets spinning in different rotations proves his point. I'm no astrophysics expert, so anyone is welcome to point me out to the basis of why his point is good :? . And thanks for the tip, Tigra. Perhaps later, though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Basically, if the Universe was made from an explosion, and galaxies formed themselves, everything should spin in the same direction unless acted upon by another force. Thus the asteroid's hitting everything turning the wrong way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Creationists should stick to Space, not Earth, for "proof". You'll find nothing but evidence to the contrary on Earth...It's what's in space that defies cosmic evolution (unless they asteroids stuff would be true, which it could be, though improbable).

 

 

 

I just have to point something out here about the "big bang".

 

 

 

People say it just happened, that mass amounts of swiriling gas suddenly exploded (or something like that) Then why are the planets not all spinning the SAME WAY? And people say there has to be a begining for everything right? Then how did that gas/dirt get there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So to sum it all up:

 

 

 

I belive in the begining "God"

 

 

 

and you belive in the begining "dirt"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My youth group leader has lots of DVDs about this one guy talking about all these different subjects about Christianity, and he proves EVERY theory about the begining of the earth wrong. If you want I could get a DVD and post it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

His name is Kent Hovind, and you just quoted him 100%. Good job thinking for yourself. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He doesn't "prove" anything wrong. He's a dude who believes the Earth is only 6000 years old just because the Bible says so. He blatantly ignores all the history before that period and seems to think empires like Egypt were built in a day, or something. In short, he's insane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is a good point though...All the planetary bodies that spin the wrong way are blamed on one thing - astroid impacts. Big ones. While it is possible, the chances of it ALL happening just like that, perfectly, is kinda' small when you think about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Warrior, go to http://www.drdino.com or google video, you can find all his seminars. They're interesting, but BS nonetheless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm trying to think how planets spinning in different rotations proves his point. I'm no astrophysics expert, so anyone is welcome to point me out to the basis of why his point is good :? . And thanks for the tip, Tigra. Perhaps later, though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Basically, if the Universe was made from an explosion, and galaxies formed themselves, everything should spin in the same direction unless acted upon by another force. Thus the asteroid's hitting everything turning the wrong way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Creationists should stick to Space, not Earth, for "proof". You'll find nothing but evidence to the contrary on Earth...It's what's in space that defies cosmic evolution (unless they asteroids stuff would be true, which it could be, though improbable).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm. I suppose, but all cosmic bodies (i.e. stars and planets) were formed millions of years after the 'hot particle soup' cooled down. I'm thinking entropy and the dissolution into disorder would have made things less predictable and less perfect by then. I'm not sure, as I say, I'm no expert. Not the best argument I've ever heard, though.

People believe the Earth is 6,000 years old? I'm a Christian but I don't know any followers that believe that and I've only heard about it in a book called Contact.

I just have to point something out here about the "big bang".

 

 

 

People say it just happened, that mass amounts of swiriling gas suddenly exploded (or something like that) Then why are the planets not all spinning the SAME WAY? And people say there has to be a begining for everything right? Then how did that gas/dirt get there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So to sum it all up:

 

 

 

I belive in the begining "God"

 

 

 

and you belive in the begining "dirt"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My youth group leader has lots of DVDs about this one guy talking about all these different subjects about Christianity, and he proves EVERY theory about the begining of the earth wrong. If you want I could get a DVD and post it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Warrior, Tigra, don't worry it's another one of those Creationists Claims!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll post the relevant response here, which is absolutely true by the way

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the spin of planets, galaxies, etc., came from the fact that the big bang matter was spinning when it blew up, then the conservation of angular momentum demands that all planets be spinning in the same direction. Since some planets and moons spin in a retrograde motion, the big bang is disproved.

 

 

 

Source:

 

 

 

All About GOD Ministries, 2002. Big bang theory. http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

 

 

 

Response:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. The claim is based on so much ignorance and so many misunderstandings that it is hard to know where to begin.

 

 

 

1. The big bang was not an explosion. Space itself expanded (and is still expanding).

 

 

 

2. The big bang is quite a different subject from the formation of solar systems. Rotations within the universe are not expected to be related to any rotation of the cosmos. Galaxies probably arose from slightly denser regions of the early universe, which coalesced and combined due to gravitational and viscous interactions. Since these early density fluctuations were apparently random, we expect galaxies to have random orientations. Solar systems within galaxies have still different origins and additional random influences on their orientations.

 

 

 

3. Conservation of angular momentum doesn't require that everything spin the same way. It requires that a change in spin in one object be compensated for by an opposite change in spin in one or more other objects. Retrograde planets are not a violation of angular momentum because other bodies in the early solar system could account for the compensating spin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. If the big bang were an explosion, we would expect different spins. When something explodes, pieces fly out spinning in all directions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obvious when you think about it really.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just have to point something out here about the "big bang".

 

 

 

People say it just happened, that mass amounts of swiriling gas suddenly exploded (or something like that) Then why are the planets not all spinning the SAME WAY? And people say there has to be a begining for everything :shame: :shame: right? Then how did that gas/dirt get there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So to sum it all up:

 

 

 

I belive in the begining "God"

 

 

 

and you belive in the begining "dirt"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My youth group leader has lots of DVDs about this one guy talking about all these different subjects about Christianity, and he proves EVERY theory about the begining of the earth wrong. If you want I could get a DVD and post it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How ignorant, tell your Youth Group leader he needs to get some different DVDs. Every theory, ha.

Warrior, Tigra, don't worry it's another one of those Creationists Claims!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did I say I was worried? :wink: :P Slightly annoyed, yes. Worried, hardly. I know the science backs me up and I have no reason to be biased. Here's a shocker guys; if evolution is wrong... I don't care. :P Science moves on, so do I as do generally all scientists who don't have some sort of egotistical inferiority compex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Science isn't about proving theists wrong. They should tatoo that to all people being baptised or something, haha, jk. :P

 

Warrior, Tigra, don't worry it's another one of those Creationists Claims!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did I say I was worried? :wink: :P Slightly annoyed, yes. Worried, hardly. I know the science backs me up and I have no reason to be biased. Here's a shocker guys; if evolution is wrong... I don't care. :P Science moves on, so do I and generally all scientists who don't have some sort of egotistical inferiority compex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Figure of speech :wink:

 

 

Warrior, Tigra, don't worry it's another one of those Creationists Claims!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did I say I was worried? :wink: :P Slightly annoyed, yes. Worried, hardly. I know the science backs me up and I have no reason to be biased. Here's a shocker guys; if evolution is wrong... I don't care. :P Science moves on, so do I and generally all scientists who don't have some sort of egotistical inferiority compex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Figure of speech :wink:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know, I know, just messin around a bit. :P On a side note, some of the claims creationists come up with to try and refute evolution are just plain funny. Such as thier rather distorted views on population biology; seems they don't know what predation, competition or death are. That seems to be a going trend in some of thier claims - either something follows a definate trend akin to following a mathamatical equation when it clearly dosen't, or when something can be explained by a mathamatical equation, i.e. radioactive decay, it must have been different in the past. #-o

 

 

 

In the words of Fullmetal Alchemist Edward Elric, stop hiding behind that religious crap, especially all those trite, random biblical saying you seem to like to throw in to make yourself look more "holy" or some other crud like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You yourself admitted (I believe) that you cannot know what's true and what isn't and yet you seem so hidebound in your belief that the Bible has to be true, has to be Divine Word. What if it isn't? What will you do then? It seems like every opinion you've ever had on this forum is based solely on the premise that the Bible is Divine Word, which isn't exactly agreed upon by the general populace.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Base your opinions on the world around you, not some random belief.

 

 

 

I'd rather base my opinions on a possible absolute truth, rather than my own or someone elses speculations. If the Bible isn't the truth, then it's rubbish as I've said before. Why should I believe what the general populace has agreed on? They had a geocentric world view for quite a while. Their views can change. Why is it so important that I have the same opinion as the general populace? Shouldn't you believe what you in your heart believe is right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

goldphishies: Welcome to a religious debate. A debate is a "discussion involving opposing points" (dict).

 

 

 

None of us are taking hope away from the homeless... :-k

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exampel: Love you enemies, pray for those who prosecute you etc. And therefore we need the Bible to be sure of what's wrong and right.

 

 

 

Sorry, I disagree. The only thing that should tell us what's wrong and right is the law. Whether you choose to abide by the law is your own choice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure I've said before I believe it's God's words.

 

 

 

God's words? Do you mean the words written by people inspired by God. Refer to my previous post on that matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS: Buddhism is truly fascinating. :)

 

 

 

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's God's words. Meaning it's what he wants to say to us, and he made sure it turned out the way he intended.

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's God's words. Meaning it's what he wants to say to us, and he made sure it turned out the way he intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So basically if god said it was ok to kill each other, it would be ok?

 

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's God's words. Meaning it's what he wants to say to us, and he made sure it turned out the way he intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So basically if god said it was ok to kill each other, it would be ok?

 

 

 

God is unchanging. Therefore he won't say that, as he has already said that murder is wrong in his commandments. Law can change, God cannot.

 

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's God's words. Meaning it's what he wants to say to us, and he made sure it turned out the way he intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So basically if god said it was ok to kill each other, it would be ok?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

unfourtunaty, most, if not all, religions think that way

 

 

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's God's words. Meaning it's what he wants to say to us, and he made sure it turned out the way he intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So basically if god said it was ok to kill each other, it would be ok?

 

 

 

God is unchanging. Therefore he won't say that, as he has already said that murder is wrong in his commandments. Law can change, God cannot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its just as absurd for me saying that God would advocate murder as you saying the law could advocate murder. The chance of a government doing something such as that is near impossible, especialy considering the reaction to (other) governments and the consequnces involved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You really cant use that to prove you're point.

 

 

 

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's God's words. Meaning it's what he wants to say to us, and he made sure it turned out the way he intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So basically if god said it was ok to kill each other, it would be ok?

 

 

 

God is unchanging. Therefore he won't say that, as he has already said that murder is wrong in his commandments. Law can change, God cannot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its just as absurd for me saying that God would advocate murder as you saying the law could advocate murder. The chance of a government doing something such as that is near impossible, especialy considering the reaction to (other) governments and the consequnces involved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You really cant use that to prove you're point.

 

 

 

I can indeed, as my point is that law can change.

 

 

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's God's words. Meaning it's what he wants to say to us, and he made sure it turned out the way he intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So basically if god said it was ok to kill each other, it would be ok?

 

 

 

God is unchanging. Therefore he won't say that, as he has already said that murder is wrong in his commandments. Law can change, God cannot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So your limiting Gods ability making him unable to change, if this was the case how would you describe the paradigm shifts from the Old Testement to the New?

 

 

 

 

In the words of Fullmetal Alchemist Edward Elric, stop hiding behind that religious crap, especially all those trite, random biblical saying you seem to like to throw in to make yourself look more "holy" or some other crud like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You yourself admitted (I believe) that you cannot know what's true and what isn't and yet you seem so hidebound in your belief that the Bible has to be true, has to be Divine Word. What if it isn't? What will you do then? It seems like every opinion you've ever had on this forum is based solely on the premise that the Bible is Divine Word, which isn't exactly agreed upon by the general populace.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Base your opinions on the world around you, not some random belief.

 

 

 

I'd rather base my opinions on a possible absolute truth, rather than my own or someone elses speculations. If the Bible isn't the truth, then it's rubbish as I've said before. Why should I believe what the general populace has agreed on? They had a geocentric world view for quite a while. Their views can change. Why is it so important that I have the same opinion as the general populace? Shouldn't you believe what you in your heart believe is right?

 

 

 

I believe this goes along with the "MY BELIEF TRUMPS EVERYTHING!!! MUAHAHAHA!" group.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything is a possible absolute truth. "My own or someone elses speculations", just like the Bible, can easily contrain many absolute truths.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Believe what's in your heart, but don't forget to use your head too.

So your limiting Gods ability making him unable to change, if this was the case how would you describe the paradigm shifts from the Old Testement to the New?

 

 

 

Jesus brought a new covenant when He came. His sinless life and death changed many things, such as the way eternal life was attained.

So basically if the law said it was okay to kill eachother, it would be okay?

 

 

 

Of course! The law doesn't tell us what's morally correct, it simply tells us what we can and can not legally do in our lives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Law can change, God cannot.

 

 

 

Law changes for a reason. As new generations emerge, laws must adapt to the change in society.

 

 

 

An example is homosexuality, which was once a sin by the law. Now it's accepted in many places, due to the changes in law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then why are the planets not all spinning the SAME WAY?

 

 

 

I don't know much about astro-physics, but planets moving in different directions is a simple matter of Newtonian physics. Newton's law of universal gravitation explains why bodies like the Moon can orbit around the Earth, even though the Earth is "spinning" a different way (orbiting around the Sun).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And people say there has to be a begining for everything right? Then how did that gas/dirt get there?

 

 

 

Not a good point if you ask me, as it can go either way. See my reply to Serephurus:

 

 

 

 

Even in the Big Bang Theory (I support it.), you can't deny that whatever triggered the explosion that brought matter into existence is what we call God.

 

 

 

This causes another problem. If God triggered the Big Bang, what created God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've recently become interested in the Cyclic Universe Model, the idea that the universe has always existed in an endless cycle of expansion and rebirth. This model solves a few of the Big Bang's quirks, such as:

 

 

 

- What occurred at the initial singularity?

 

 

 

- What is the ultimate fate of the Universe?

 

 

 

- What is the role of dark energy and the recently observed cosmic acceleration?

 

 

 

- Does time, and the arrow of time, exist before the big bang? or after the big crunch?

I can indeed, as my point is that law can change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To prove your point with that, you should first prove:

 

 

 

1. The existant of the god.

 

 

 

2. The god's true will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First one can't be proven, at least not yet. Just because lunatics have had signs it doesn't mean anything. If god existed just because people have had their "miracles", then should also small pink elephants, little green men and other stuff like that. If you try to prove him with bible, you can go talk to the wall. I'm not even interested to hear another hocuspocus story being explained with almost 2000 year-old collection of writings which has as much or even less to do with real life than the newest Donald Duck.

To prove your point with that, you should first prove:

 

 

 

1. The existant of the god.

 

 

 

2. The god's true will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First one can't be proven, at least not yet. Just because lunatics have had signs it doesn't mean anything. If god existed just because people have had their "miracles", then should also small pink elephants, little green men and other stuff like that. If you try to prove him with bible, you can go talk to the wall. I'm not even interested to hear another hocuspocus story being explained with almost 2000 year-old collection of writings which has as much or even less to do with real life than the newest Donald Duck.

 

 

 

1. God exists because of creation. At some point some superior being had to create somthing. If you can prove that some form of matter can somhow come from nothing, then you have an excellent point. However, I doubt that this will ever be proven. Don't tell me that everything is just a cycle of destruction and regeneration, because at some point this cycle has to be started. Another point, look at how ordered the universe is. It is extremely unlikely that it is all just coincidence.

 

 

 

2. God's true will. If God created us, then we know basic right and wrong. Everyone believes and stealing are wrong for example. Every living person has some standards, even if they were raised in a very bad environment with no morals or religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if God didn't exist (He does) consider this quote by CS Lewis. "If you are a believer in God, and He doesn't exist, it is of no importance. However, if you are an atheist and God does exist, then it is of infinite importance." If you are a believer in God, you can't lose either way. :)

1. God exists because of creation. At some point some superior being had to create somthing. If you can prove that some form of matter can somhow come from nothing, then you have an excellent point. However, I doubt that this will ever be proven. Don't tell me that everything is just a cycle of destruction and regeneration, because at some point this cycle has to be started. Another point, look at how ordered the universe is. It is extremely unlikely that it is all just coincidence.

 

 

 

2. God's true will. If God created us, then we know basic right and wrong. Everyone believes and stealing are wrong for example. Every living person has some standards, even if they were raised in a very bad environment with no morals or religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you are saying god can just 'always be' but matter can not 'always be'?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Something had to be in the begining.

Don't tell me that everything is just a cycle of destruction and regeneration, because at some point this cycle has to be started.

 

 

 

By this logic some point of singularity would have also had to "start" or "create" a God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But what if the cycle of the universe is infinite, in the same belief that God is infinite? In this sense, neither was ever created nor started; they are always existing and will never die.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: heh, Nad beat me to it.

 

 

 

I believe this goes along with the "MY BELIEF TRUMPS EVERYTHING!!! MUAHAHAHA!" group.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything is a possible absolute truth. "My own or someone elses speculations", just like the Bible, can easily contrain many absolute truths.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Believe what's in your heart, but don't forget to use your head too.

 

 

 

Everything can't be an absolute truth. Example: Me saying "It's cold outside." It's not absolute, it's a relative truth. The statement "It's cold outside." is true for me but not necessarily true for anyone else.

 

 

 

 

I believe this goes along with the "MY BELIEF TRUMPS EVERYTHING!!! MUAHAHAHA!" group.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything is a possible absolute truth. "My own or someone elses speculations", just like the Bible, can easily contrain many absolute truths.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Believe what's in your heart, but don't forget to use your head too.

 

 

 

Everything can't be an absolute truth. Example: Me saying "It's cold outside." It's not absolute, it's a relative truth. The statement "It's cold outside." is true for me but not necessarily true for anyone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The statement "god exists" is true for you, but not neccesairily for anyone else

 

 

 

The statement "god exists" is true for you, but not neccesairily for anyone else

 

 

 

If God exists, he exists whether I believe it or not.

 

 

 

 

The statement "god exists" is true for you, but not neccesairily for anyone else

 

 

 

If God exists, he exists whether I believe it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, if.