The statement "god exists" is true for you, but not neccesairily for anyone else

 

 

 

If God exists, he exists whether I believe it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People used to believe Zeus existed too. Now hardly anyone does (if anyone at all?)...Sooo...Something existing is kinda' relevant to someone believing it exists. At least for God's.

 

 

 

 

 

The statement "god exists" is true for you, but not neccesairily for anyone else

 

 

 

If God exists, he exists whether I believe it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People used to believe Zeus existed too. Now hardly anyone does (if anyone at all?)...Sooo...Something existing is kinda' relevant to someone believing it exists. At least for God's.

 

 

 

So are you saying that a God that created everything, only exists if his creation called man believes he exists?

 

 

 

 

I believe this goes along with the "MY BELIEF TRUMPS EVERYTHING!!! MUAHAHAHA!" group.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything is a possible absolute truth. "My own or someone elses speculations", just like the Bible, can easily contrain many absolute truths.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Believe what's in your heart, but don't forget to use your head too.

 

 

 

Everything can't be an absolute truth. Example: Me saying "It's cold outside." It's not absolute, it's a relative truth. The statement "It's cold outside." is true for me but not necessarily true for anyone else.

 

 

 

Fine, we can talk about relations and opinions, whatever. My main point still stands that subjective truths can be absolute truths, and because of this we can trust the opinions of the general human rather than some stupid old book, a book that isn't much more than a vague moral guidebook and fluff for Christianity to control the masses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for subjective truths, how about the statment, "it's raining" It may actually be raining outside, and thus it could be an absolute moral. But, if you can pardon the movie reference, the rain could be an illusion as if we were in the Matrix, and thus make our subjective truth false.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We can produce subjective truths that are actually absolute truths as well (without us knowing it). Do you disagree with that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The statement "god exists" is true for you, but not neccesairily for anyone else

 

 

 

If God exists, he exists whether I believe it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People used to believe Zeus existed too. Now hardly anyone does (if anyone at all?)...Sooo...Something existing is kinda' relevant to someone believing it exists. At least for God's.

 

 

 

So are you saying that a God that created everything, only exists if his creation called man believes he exists?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm saying there have been many God's who people thought LITERALLY existed. Now they are refered to as "mythology". Can you say they DON'T exist? Everyone assumes so. Or are you going by "whoever lasts the longest is the winner!"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God's will always come and go. People fail to realize that the popularity of a religion is directly proportional to one thing and one thing only - The numbers of kingdom's that have been conquered in it's name. Had Rome played it's cards better, we'd all be worshipping Roman "mythology" God's. Christian armies have been by far the most effecient at conquering, thus converting people, weither by choice or force, and those people teach their children and it is passed on as literal truth through those children. Islam is the second most popular religion for the same reason...Muslim's had some good armies. It wouldn't even be a religion today had they not fought off the Crusaders the best they could. Hindu and Buddhism aren't very popular anymore (less than 2% for both religion's) because they just...Don't fight. It's the same thing for languages...When an area is conquered by another army, the people of that area start to speak that language. Ever heard the expression "If not for our forefathers sacrifices, we'd all be speaking German/Japanese/etc etc etc" before? Of course you have. It's the same concept.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because your God is the most popular doesn't make it the right God and it doesn't even mean he exists. Why is there even a question of "Who's the right God?" or "Who's the best God?", since when is God a popularity contest?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah well. Allahu Akbar. Praise Jesus. Etc etc etc into infinity until someone cares.

1. God exists because of creation. At some point some superior being had to create somthing. If you can prove that some form of matter can somhow come from nothing, then you have an excellent point. However, I doubt that this will ever be proven. Don't tell me that everything is just a cycle of destruction and regeneration, because at some point this cycle has to be started. Another point, look at how ordered the universe is. It is extremely unlikely that it is all just coincidence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you rather believe there's one superior being which existed for billion years and decided to create man some thousand years ago? So this creature has the control of everything? If a creature like this existed, it made man to be his image and so on, it most likely wouldn't just hide in our minds and give us the possibility to chose wether to believe him or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You also forget the thing that there are other gods, explanations how world was created and so on. What makes you believe it's your god that's the real one and world was created the way you believe in?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. God's true will. If God created us, then we know basic right and wrong. Everyone believes and stealing are wrong for example. Every living person has some standards, even if they were raised in a very bad environment with no morals or religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So it's your god's will that hindus, buddhas, muslims and atheists think that doing certain things are wrong? I'd more likely say that those univeral moral norms can change (look at killing for example and compare us to ancient generations) and we have them to protect ourselves. Everyone for example think that stealing is wrong because it could also hurt you, not because your imaginational friend has decided to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if God didn't exist (He does) consider this quote by CS Lewis. "If you are a believer in God, and He doesn't exist, it is of no importance. However, if you are an atheist and God does exist, then it is of infinite importance." If you are a believer in God, you can't lose either way. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With that logic I should believe in every god there is.

 

Even if God didn't exist (He does) consider this quote by CS Lewis. "If you are a believer in God, and He doesn't exist, it is of no importance. However, if you are an atheist and God does exist, then it is of infinite importance." If you are a believer in God, you can't lose either way. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With that logic I should believe in every god there is.

 

 

 

Oh, don't forget, he should go kill some people in the name of religion and get his 72 virgins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Belief based on cowardice about the afterlife is worthless.

Oh, don't forget, he should go kill some people in the name of religion and get his 72 virgins.

 

 

 

Hm please elaborate. I don't see what this has to do with anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Belief based on cowardice about the afterlife is worthless.

 

 

 

Why would you say the belief of the afterlife is cowardice and worthless? It brings many people hope. And, who knows, it could be true. It definitely has more going for it than most of the ideas discussed in this thread. :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you are a believer in God, and He doesn't exist, it is of no importance. However, if you are an atheist and God does exist, then it is of infinite importance.

 

 

 

I think it should be the other way around. I'd imagine most atheists would simply accept the fact that they were wrong and continue living life as they normally do (ie: not serving God, even if one exists).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, imagine how difficult it would be to know that your prayers and servings to your faith were all futile. Imagine all the money, effort, and time you put into religion, just to find out that it's all a big hoax. Just imagine how painful it would be when you find that your "sacred" text was the work of a few average men from thousands of years ago. Ouch!

Everyone says their God, or their belief, is the right one. Obviously, not everyone or every God can be right here. This leads to three possible conclusions:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Some of these people are wrong - One of these Gods is right and all the rest are wrong. It's impossible to know for sure which one, though.

 

 

 

2. All of these people are wrong - such confliction about which God is real means there is no God.

 

 

 

3. There is one God of which all proposed gods are aspects, fragments; all prayers no matter who they are sent to go to this God; all major religions are different ways of observing this God or different viewpoints on this God; the truth of this God is impossible for one human to understand; all religions are, therefore, not completely right but not completely wrong, though some are more right than others. No set of religious dogma contains the whole truth of God and no human short of a fully Illuminated being may know this.

 

 

 

Call it what you will and ascribe what aspects to it you will, it's just God. It's not YHVH, nor Buddha, Allah, Jesus, Brahma, Shiva, Discordia, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Religious fundamentalists take option 1, atheists number 2, and I take number 3.

Everyone says their God, or their belief, is the right one. Obviously, not everyone or every God can be right here. This leads to three possible conclusions:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Some of these people are wrong - One of these Gods is right and all the rest are wrong. It's impossible to know for sure which one, though.

 

 

 

2. All of these people are wrong - such confliction about which God is real means there is no God.

 

 

 

3. There is one God of which all proposed gods are aspects, fragments; all prayers no matter who they are sent to go to this God; all major religions are different ways of observing this God or different viewpoints on this God; the truth of this God is impossible for one human to understand; all religions are, therefore, not completely right but not completely wrong, though some are more right than others. No set of religious dogma contains the whole truth of God and no human short of a fully Illuminated being may know this.

 

 

 

Call it what you will and ascribe what aspects to it you will, it's just God. It's not YHVH, nor Buddha, Allah, Jesus, Brahma, Shiva, Discordia, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Religious fundamentalists take option 1, atheists number 2, and I take number 3.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am an atheist, aka I am not theistic. I wouldn't choose number 2, to be honest. I could never just rule out a creator entirely although I know I shouldn't let a whim control my life as it is not a known. It's a belief and not something I'm into nor something anyone should treat like a piece of reality. You can have faith, you can believe all you want, no worries. It's just that points such as yours, that there are many belief systems and only one (or none) can logically be correct, lead me to conclude that none of these belief systems should be taught or percieved as a known truth or as part of reality. It's just not sensible; nonsense, and has shown to be potentially harmful (case in point: 'god hates [bleep]s').

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The takehome message from my post is this: Don't stray from your belief system just because of what said, what you believe is totally up to you due to the beauty of individuality. Just don't blur what is with what could be. Spirituality is a gift, don't ruin it by treating it as a message to reject another gift: reality; logic, reasoning, truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway I'm done. Be gentle.

 

 

 

Fine, we can talk about relations and opinions, whatever. My main point still stands that subjective truths can be absolute truths, and because of this we can trust the opinions of the general human rather than some stupid old book, a book that isn't much more than a vague moral guidebook and fluff for Christianity to control the masses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for subjective truths, how about the statment, "it's raining" It may actually be raining outside, and thus it could be an absolute moral. But, if you can pardon the movie reference, the rain could be an illusion as if we were in the Matrix, and thus make our subjective truth false.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We can produce subjective truths that are actually absolute truths as well (without us knowing it). Do you disagree with that?

 

 

 

I'm not too sure about this. I'm thinking something like this:

 

 

 

Jesus is the truth for everyone - that's an objective truth.

 

 

 

Jesus is the truth for me - subjective truth.

 

 

 

"Jesus is the truth for everyone" does not equal "Jesus is the truth for me"

 

 

 

If a subjective truth equals an objective truth it is no longer a subjective truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm saying there have been many God's who people thought LITERALLY existed. Now they are refered to as "mythology". Can you say they DON'T exist? Everyone assumes so. Or are you going by "whoever lasts the longest is the winner!"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God's will always come and go. People fail to realize that the popularity of a religion is directly proportional to one thing and one thing only - The numbers of kingdom's that have been conquered in it's name. Had Rome played it's cards better, we'd all be worshipping Roman "mythology" God's. Christian armies have been by far the most effecient at conquering, thus converting people, weither by choice or force, and those people teach their children and it is passed on as literal truth through those children. Islam is the second most popular religion for the same reason...Muslim's had some good armies. It wouldn't even be a religion today had they not fought off the Crusaders the best they could. Hindu and Buddhism aren't very popular anymore (less than 2% for both religion's) because they just...Don't fight. It's the same thing for languages...When an area is conquered by another army, the people of that area start to speak that language. Ever heard the expression "If not for our forefathers sacrifices, we'd all be speaking German/Japanese/etc etc etc" before? Of course you have. It's the same concept.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because your God is the most popular doesn't make it the right God and it doesn't even mean he exists. Why is there even a question of "Who's the right God?" or "Who's the best God?", since when is God a popularity contest?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah well. Allahu Akbar. Praise Jesus. Etc etc etc into infinity until someone cares.

 

 

 

God never came or went, he has always been. He's the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and end. God's existence has nothing to do with us.

 

 

 

 

Fine, we can talk about relations and opinions, whatever. My main point still stands that subjective truths can be absolute truths, and because of this we can trust the opinions of the general human rather than some stupid old book, a book that isn't much more than a vague moral guidebook and fluff for Christianity to control the masses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for subjective truths, how about the statment, "it's raining" It may actually be raining outside, and thus it could be an absolute moral. But, if you can pardon the movie reference, the rain could be an illusion as if we were in the Matrix, and thus make our subjective truth false.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We can produce subjective truths that are actually absolute truths as well (without us knowing it). Do you disagree with that?

 

 

 

I'm not too sure about this. I'm thinking something like this:

 

 

 

Jesus is the truth for everyone - that's an objective truth.

 

 

 

Jesus is the truth for me - subjective truth.

 

 

 

"Jesus is the truth for everyone" does not equal "Jesus is the truth for me"

 

 

 

If a subjective truth equals an objective truth it is no longer a subjective truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm saying there have been many God's who people thought LITERALLY existed. Now they are refered to as "mythology". Can you say they DON'T exist? Everyone assumes so. Or are you going by "whoever lasts the longest is the winner!"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God's will always come and go. People fail to realize that the popularity of a religion is directly proportional to one thing and one thing only - The numbers of kingdom's that have been conquered in it's name. Had Rome played it's cards better, we'd all be worshipping Roman "mythology" God's. Christian armies have been by far the most effecient at conquering, thus converting people, weither by choice or force, and those people teach their children and it is passed on as literal truth through those children. Islam is the second most popular religion for the same reason...Muslim's had some good armies. It wouldn't even be a religion today had they not fought off the Crusaders the best they could. Hindu and Buddhism aren't very popular anymore (less than 2% for both religion's) because they just...Don't fight. It's the same thing for languages...When an area is conquered by another army, the people of that area start to speak that language. Ever heard the expression "If not for our forefathers sacrifices, we'd all be speaking German/Japanese/etc etc etc" before? Of course you have. It's the same concept.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because your God is the most popular doesn't make it the right God and it doesn't even mean he exists. Why is there even a question of "Who's the right God?" or "Who's the best God?", since when is God a popularity contest?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah well. Allahu Akbar. Praise Jesus. Etc etc etc into infinity until someone cares.

 

 

 

God never came or went, he has always been. He's the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and end. God's existence has nothing to do with us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm interested to hear your reasoning there. God existing is the precusur to our creation, therefore him existing leads to our existance, which has everything to do with us, right? Here's a question: what is god's purpose? Was it to create us? If so, then indeed, him being here has everything to do with us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just interested to hear your reasoning there.

 

 

 

I'm interested to hear your reasoning there. God existing is the precusur to our creation, therefore him existing leads to our existance, which has everything to do with us, right? Here's a question: what is god's purpose? Was it to create us? If so, then indeed, him being here has everything to do with us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just interested to hear your reasoning there.

 

 

 

We wouldn't exist without God. However, God would exist without us. God didn't need to create us, he created us to love us.

THANK GOD (ironic aint it?) for this thread!!! topic get changes to discussions on why a bunny and painted eggs had anything to do with the rebirth of jesus...

THANK GOD (ironic aint it?) for this thread!!! so many topics get changed to discussions on why a bunny and painted eggs had anything to do with the rebirth of jesus...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks you! i hope people actuly read it :P

You double posted. pl0x fix it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, you have to admit Tigra does have a valid point...in Greek times, Zeus and Hera and Aphrodite were real. they were the True Gods. Now they're myths. Now God (YHVH), and Jesus, are True God. How long in the future will it be before they, too, become myth?

 

 

 

And why is one any more myth than the other?

 

Oh, don't forget, he should go kill some people in the name of religion and get his 72 virgins.

 

 

 

Hm please elaborate. I don't see what this has to do with anything.

 

 

 

I'm saying that he's doing whatever helps him win in the end in terms of god... including appeasing god by killing to get 72 virgins in heaven.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Belief based on cowardice about the afterlife is worthless.

 

 

 

Why would you say the belief of the afterlife is cowardice and worthless? It brings many people hope. And, who knows, it could be true. It definitely has more going for it than most of the ideas discussed in this thread. :lol:

 

 

 

I'm not saying belief in the afterlife is cowardice and worthless; I often entertain the idea of an afterlife myself. I'm simply saying believing in God, rather than being an atheist, just because you "always win" when believing in the Christian God, is worthless and pathetic. It's not true believing; it's taking the easy way out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not too sure about this. I'm thinking something like this:

 

 

 

Jesus is the truth for everyone - that's an objective truth.

 

 

 

Jesus is the truth for me - subjective truth.

 

 

 

"Jesus is the truth for everyone" does not equal "Jesus is the truth for me"

 

 

 

If a subjective truth equals an objective truth it is no longer a subjective truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Subjective truth is a human formed truth, so it can be wrong or right. Objective truths are part of Truth; they are the true answers to our questions. We don't know objective truths, but many of our subjective truths can be part of objective truth.

 

I'm interested to hear your reasoning there. God existing is the precusur to our creation, therefore him existing leads to our existance, which has everything to do with us, right? Here's a question: what is god's purpose? Was it to create us? If so, then indeed, him being here has everything to do with us.

 

 

 

I'm just interested to hear your reasoning there.

 

We wouldn't exist without God. However, God would exist without us. God didn't need to create us, he created us to love us.

 

 

 

We wouldn't exist without god according to your faith (and those similar), we would according to everything else, so lets leave that one be. My question was (and I'll expand on this now): if god did not need to create us, what is his purpose? Why is he here? As a plee for my sanity, please, no responses such as 'but god's infinite, he dosen't need a purpose' or 'your limiting god.' Guess what guys, we aren't infinite, therefore we can't comprehend the infinite and can only use finite thoughts in a futile attempt to do so. So it's just a throw-away opinion if you want to answer my question, so don't treat it like a dessecration of the bible if you question god or just ask why. Just throw-away ideas, no harm done.

 

 

 

(Just to let you know, I added those extra bits because some people seem to sometimes miss what questions are hypothetical and which aren't. Some people, in thier fevered defense of whatever it is that they are defending, tend to spring to 'but, but, but, but no, but 'x' sais, but, but' etc).

 

We wouldn't exist without god according to your faith (and those similar), we would according to everything else, so lets leave that one be. My question was (and I'll expand on this now): if god did not need to create us, what is his purpose? Why is he here? As a plee for my sanity, please, no responses such as 'but god's infinite, he dosen't need a purpose' or 'your limiting god.' Guess what guys, we aren't infinite, therefore we can't comprehend the infinite and can only use finite thoughts in a futile attempt to do so. So it's just a throw-away opinion if you want to answer my question, so don't treat it like a dessecration of the bible if you question god or just ask why. Just throw-away ideas, no harm done.

 

 

 

(Just to let you know, I added those extra bits because some people seem to sometimes miss what questions are hypothetical and which aren't. Some people, in thier fevered defense of whatever it is that they are defending, tend to spring to 'but, but, but, but no, but 'x' sais, but, but' etc).

 

God is self-existent. I'm thinking if something is self-existent, then nothing existed before it, that could've been its cause. Nothing exists outside it, that could be the source of its purpose.

All this stuff about "which religion is right?" is thinking too much. Simple solution: they're all right. Whether you call him Allah, God, or Yahweh, or any other name, its the same. People may say "well, if you don't believe in god and he does exist, will you go to heaven?" Course you will. Outside of religion, there still is morality. Whatever religion you are, I think its safe to assume you know murder is wrong and helping is right. If you live a moral life, then you're ok right?

 

Belief based on cowardice about the afterlife is worthless.

 

Why would you say the belief of the afterlife is cowardice and worthless? It brings many people hope. And, who knows, it could be true. It definitely has more going for it than most of the ideas discussed in this thread. :lol:

 

 

 

That's not what he's saying. What he means is, you shouldn't believe in something just because you're afraid of what might happen in the afterlife. If you believe in God and all that just because you're afraid there might be a Hell then you're a coward.

 

We wouldn't exist without god according to your faith (and those similar), we would according to everything else, so lets leave that one be. My question was (and I'll expand on this now): if god did not need to create us, what is his purpose? Why is he here? As a plee for my sanity, please, no responses such as 'but god's infinite, he dosen't need a purpose' or 'your limiting god.' Guess what guys, we aren't infinite, therefore we can't comprehend the infinite and can only use finite thoughts in a futile attempt to do so. So it's just a throw-away opinion if you want to answer my question, so don't treat it like a dessecration of the bible if you question god or just ask why. Just throw-away ideas, no harm done.

 

 

 

(Just to let you know, I added those extra bits because some people seem to sometimes miss what questions are hypothetical and which aren't. Some people, in thier fevered defense of whatever it is that they are defending, tend to spring to 'but, but, but, but no, but 'x' sais, but, but' etc).

 

God is self-existent. I'm thinking if something is self-existent, then nothing existed before it, that could've been its cause. Nothing exists outside it, that could be the source of its purpose.

 

 

 

Thanks for the response, although I don't entirely get it. :P Would I be safe in interpreting your response as 'god is self-existant, therefore he is self-purposeful, i.e. the purpose he has comes with him being'? If not, sorry.

Ok, about the Universe going through an endless cycle of birth and destruction and re-birth, how come it can go into an infinite cycle and basically never was created the first time, it just was always there (much like the arguments about God)?

 

 

 

How do you know it could be true, but we are in the first Universe created, and the cycle will continue or if we're Universe number 10^10,000?

 

Thanks for the response, although I don't entirely get it. :P Would I be safe in interpreting your response as 'god is self-existant, therefore he is self-purposeful, i.e. the purpose he has comes with him being'? If not, sorry.

 

That sounds about right.

Ok, about the Universe going through an endless cycle of birth and destruction and re-birth, how come it can go into an infinite cycle and basically never was created the first time, it just was always there (much like the arguments about God)?

 

 

 

How do you know it could be true, but we are in the first Universe created, and the cycle will continue or if we're Universe number 10^10,000?

 

 

 

What if the first sigularity, i.e. the beginning, was an uncaused cause dubbed 'god.' No being, no spirit, no son, no stories, fantasies, fables or folklore, just an uncaused cause... perhaps.

I believe you have finally understood what I've been saying. I view God as more of a force, not even a person. However, I wouldn't fully doubt that God is a being of some form because perhaps he does manipulate the Universe to his will. We never truely know.

 

 

 

But if God is just a meager force, no being of any sort (definitely not human), then what is the purpose of existence?

 

 

 

It would make sense for existence because what's the point of nothing? Maybe something is at work here and we're here for a reason... Though we may never prove that, but still interesting question, no?