Satenza Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Free will to do what? Wouldn't it make more sense to give us free will as to whether we should follow God's way of life rather than beleive in him? Right now any following of a particular God is illogical and irrational. He hasn't given us a fair chance to make the decision as to whether we should beleive or not in my opinion. Even so, would you sacrifice your child to hell for any reason? As in personally throw them down there? If he is untimatley compassionate he would never send anyone to hell. With free-will comes the choice to beleive in him or not, an infinitley compassionate God would never punish an innocent, rational and logical mistake with damning people to hell. God wants to eliminate all sin and evil. We are sinful. God wants to eliminate us. It's not morally bad to punish evil. It's morally good to punish evil. He goes about it in the most uncompassionate way then doesn't he? He doesn;t tell us anything. If i were a tribe in the Amazon a thousand years ago how is that compassionate that he would send me to hell even though i didn't know or beleive in him. It's not morally wrong to not beleive in him, it's logically and rationally correct. If God does exist and he is your God than we used the tools he gave us to develop the best possible way of finding truth. Empirically, and if he isn't a rational or logical idea to beleive in then that is down purley to him and no one else. His fault not ours. Not compassionate. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 He goes about it in the most uncompassionate way then doesn't he? He doesn;t tell us anything. If i were a tribe in the Amazon a thousand years ago how is that compassionate that he would send me to hell even though i didn't know or beleive in him. It's not morally wrong to not beleive in him, it's logically and rationally correct. If God does exist and he is your God than we used the tools he gave us to develop the best possible way of finding truth. Empirically, and if he isn't a rational or logical idea to beleive in then that is down purley to him and no one else. His fault not ours. Not compassionate. We were given his revelation in the Bible. It's sufficient information in my opinion. The Amazon creates a problem I can only speculate about. But that dosen't do any good to anyone. I can't know whether you or the amazon guy are going to heaven or hell, only God knows. Being compassionate is not about ignoring evil and being indifferent to human's choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 He goes about it in the most uncompassionate way then doesn't he? He doesn;t tell us anything. If i were a tribe in the Amazon a thousand years ago how is that compassionate that he would send me to hell even though i didn't know or beleive in him. It's not morally wrong to not beleive in him, it's logically and rationally correct. If God does exist and he is your God than we used the tools he gave us to develop the best possible way of finding truth. Empirically, and if he isn't a rational or logical idea to beleive in then that is down purley to him and no one else. His fault not ours. Not compassionate. We were given his revelation in the Bible. It's sufficient information in my opinion. The Amazon creates a problem I can only speculate about. But that dosen't do any good to anyone. I can't know whether you or the amazon guy are going to heaven or hell, only God knows. Being compassionate is not about ignoring evil and being indifferent to human's choices. Everyone of every religion has been given some kind of "proof" to base their faith upon. So no, it's not sufficient infomation in the slightest. It's completley uncompassionate and unfair and injust, and ridiculous. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocobodude0 Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 If Christianity is right, Heaven. If not, dunno. :| And Satenza, though I am Christian myself, I agree with you. I don't believe there is a "hell". You stated why I don't yourself. God is extremely loving and compassionate to his creations, so no, he wouldn't send them to hell. I never believed in "hell", and never will. Word. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I like to think I'm off to heaven, even though I'm pretty damn sure it doesn't exist. I've gone to Church all my life but I'm having a faith crisis right now. I'm bored of living in belief in something with no concrete evidence, I can't see religion as anything other than a way of manipulating people. The only thing I carry on going to church is for the community and charity work. I'm pretty sure there was a Jesus and he was a great person with great ideas (love your neighbour, treat others as you would treat yourself etc.) but I don't believe he was the son of God or any of that miracle stuff or heaven or hell. Sorry for being so off-topic, I just felt like getting that off my chest. If the Christian God exists, hell does not exist. It's an illogical concept when refering to Gods attributes. Are you compassionate? If so, then would you save your child from going to hell? Of course you would, and you are not even infinitley compassionate like God. So if God is infinitley compassionate he would never even think of sending his children to hell. As Engles i think said "God is the sewer in which all contradictions flow". Quote what I said about heaven and hell on the other God thread and refute it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Everyone of every religion has been given some kind of "proof" to base their faith upon. So no, it's not sufficient infomation in the slightest. It's completley uncompassionate and unfair and injust, and ridiculous. You have a somewhat valid point. But I'm thinking God is being fair and everyone will have the opportunity to recieve the gift of faith. Then again I can't be sure if I would have been a christian unless I grew up in a christian family. That brings me to either the first conclusion or that we are predestined to go to heaven or hell, an idea which I'm not very found of. What is uncompassionate about this: God created man to live in a relationship with him. We were given free will. We choose to sin. Our relationship with God was broken. However, he still loved us, so instead of abandoning us, he sent his son to fix what was broken. That means we are now eligible to enter heaven. Though we can still choose not too as God has not taken away our free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 There is a man at my church( I wont give you name for his privacy). He had a heart attack and was rushed to the hospital.Halve our church went there and we sat together and prayed.This man died.He just suddenly stoped beathing.He had no pulse and the thing that goes beep beep stopped.That day i lost faith in god.Sike He lived.He was dead for 88 min's.Durring the first 5 minuets of his death the tried to ressesitate him and they couldnt. On that 89 minuet he fricken started pumping blood agian.It was a MIRACLE God exist people and one day Jesus shall come from the east and sweep to the west and all shall bend on knee and confess his name AND ALL TO THE RIGHT SHALL BE SAVED AND ALL TO THE LEFT SHALL PERISH. AMEN When in faldore do as the dwares do.Mine =).Proud Owner of the Coal Cart Co.:High prices for the miner:Low prices for the buyer.(Temperarelly closed/Pls dont pm me untill i reopen.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladymax Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Nice topic..I like to read everyone's opinions and beliefs. From the Bible's standpoint, there are some that go to heaven, but Gehenna shouldn't be taken literally right? Someone mentioned earlier on a post that God doesn't want anyone to die, but to have everlasting life. I've read that before..so if God wants us to live..then I think that there is no hell. He is a God of love, he wouldn't torture anyone. I want to live...so neither for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defender2516 Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I like to think I'm off to heaven, even though I'm pretty damn sure it doesn't exist. I've gone to Church all my life but I'm having a faith crisis right now. I'm bored of living in belief in something with no concrete evidence, I can't see religion as anything other than a way of manipulating people. The only thing I carry on going to church is for the community and charity work. I'm pretty sure there was a Jesus and he was a great person with great ideas (love your neighbour, treat others as you would treat yourself etc.) but I don't believe he was the son of God or any of that miracle stuff or heaven or hell. Sorry for being so off-topic, I just felt like getting that off my chest. If the Christian God exists, hell does not exist. It's an illogical concept when refering to Gods attributes. Are you compassionate? If so, then would you save your child from going to hell? Of course you would, and you are not even infinitley compassionate like God. So if God is infinitley compassionate he would never even think of sending his children to hell. As Engles i think said "God is the sewer in which all contradictions flow". I agree with you. God would never think of sending his children to hell. He loves them so much. But the kids turn around and say "i'm jumping in anyway!" and off they go.. The truth is, if God had the choice in the matter, everyone would go to heaven. But we have the choice of where we go. What? You think God sent Jesus to die for our sins just so half could go to heaven and the other half hell? No, it says God sent Jesus so that NONE shall perish but have everlasting life. It says many times in the Bible how God says the choice of life and death or heaven and hell is our choice, not his. If you say "God I will have nothing to do with you", then guess what happens? You have nothing to do with God. You made that choice, God isn't gonna change your will about it. God sends no one to hell. People send themselfs. It only goes to show you how stupid a person can get. ~Defender~ If you love me, send me a PM. 8 - Love me2 - Hate me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Sorry insane can't find what you said about heaven. What is uncompassionate about this: God created man to live in a relationship with him. We were given free will. We choose to sin. Our relationship with God was broken. However, he still loved us, so instead of abandoning us, he sent his son to fix what was broken. That means we are now eligible to enter heaven. Though we can still choose not too as God has not taken away our free will. There is nothing that points towards any of that to be true, choosing God is obviously less rational than being agnostic. Any belief in a particular God is circular, and illogical. If this was a fair contest he would actally stand a chance against logic. Everything we have on earth points to the fact the christian God does not exist, if this was a fair contest, that would not happen. Your argument is like you are pre-supposing that your God clearly exists to everyone in the world. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
np_tyler Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Even so, would you sacrifice your child to hell for any reason? As in personally throw them down there? If he is untimatley compassionate he would never send anyone to hell. With free-will comes the choice to beleive in him or not, an infinitley compassionate God would never punish an innocent, rational and logical mistake with damning people to hell. What does this mean? "An innocent, rational and logical mistake"? It's become increasingly obvious to me lately that God is real. I've deleted about two sentences that I typed about stuff that doesn't relate to this topic already... Even if there is no God, then believing in God and following His Word won't hurt anything, and would just make me a better person. God sends no one to hell. People send themselfs. It only goes to show you how stupid a person can get. I agree. - Np Tyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 What does this mean? "An innocent, rational and logical mistake"? It is rational to beleive in one specific God which we humans assigned attributes too? No. Is it logical to beleive in a God which requires circular logic to have faith in? No. If this God did exist would it be an inocent mistake not to beleive in this God, because he is both irrational and illogical? Yes. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 What is uncompassionate about this: God created man to live in a relationship with him. We were given free will. We choose to sin. Our relationship with God was broken. However, he still loved us, so instead of abandoning us, he sent his son to fix what was broken. That means we are now eligible to enter heaven. Though we can still choose not too as God has not taken away our free will. There is nothing that points towards any of that to be true, choosing God is obviously less rational than being agnostic. Any belief in a particular God is circular, and illogical. If this was a fair contest he would actally stand a chance against logic. Everything we have on earth points to the fact the christian God does not exist, if this was a fair contest, that would not happen. Your argument is like you are pre-supposing that your God clearly exists to everyone in the world. Our whole debate is based on the assumption that God exists. If it didn't we'd have to start all over with the question "Does God exist or not?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 What is uncompassionate about this: God created man to live in a relationship with him. We were given free will. We choose to sin. Our relationship with God was broken. However, he still loved us, so instead of abandoning us, he sent his son to fix what was broken. That means we are now eligible to enter heaven. Though we can still choose not too as God has not taken away our free will. There is nothing that points towards any of that to be true, choosing God is obviously less rational than being agnostic. Any belief in a particular God is circular, and illogical. If this was a fair contest he would actally stand a chance against logic. Everything we have on earth points to the fact the christian God does not exist, if this was a fair contest, that would not happen. Your argument is like you are pre-supposing that your God clearly exists to everyone in the world. Our whole debate is based on the assumption that God exists. If it didn't we'd have to start all over with the question "Does God exist or not?". I am assuming his existance, I am debating the fact that is is far from clearly shown on earth. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I am assuming his existance, I am debating the fact that is is far from clearly shown on earth. I agree it's not clearly shown on earth. However, you could argue that all beatiful things in nature must have a creator or something similar. I don't see that as any real evidence, but saying that there is nothing that points towards his existence seems strange when there are such a vast amount of believers. I'm not saying these are strong arguments but my questions to you are really: Why do you think there are people like myself who are devout christians? Why do we want answers to metaphysical questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I am assuming his existance, I am debating the fact that is is far from clearly shown on earth. I agree it's not clearly shown on earth. Then how could you say that an infinitley compassionate God would allow anyone to go to hell when he himself has made his existance so questionable in the first place? However, you could argue that all beatiful things in nature must have a creator or something similar. I don't see that as any real evidence, but saying that there is nothing that points towards his existence seems strange when there are such a vast amount of believers. If this was the case, it does not point to a specific God. However the christian God, to avoid hell requires you to put all your faith into him alone. Coupled with the above point, not compassionate. I'm not saying these are strong arguments but my questions to you are really: Why do you think there are people like myself who are devout christians? Why do we want answers to metaphysical questions? Up-bringing, culture, denying our contingency, enforcing our skewed opinions onto others by calling them divine, controlling societys, hope, wishful thinking, assurance ect. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foofoomagoo Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Im guessing that at this point in my life hell, but if i repent and come clean with my actions maybe i could change that around. 26M Crafting XP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 I am assuming his existance, I am debating the fact that is is far from clearly shown on earth. I agree it's not clearly shown on earth. Then how could you say that an infinitley compassionate God would allow anyone to [bleep] when he himself has made his existance so questionable in the first place? I would somewhat blame Adam for this, not that I think that I would've done any differently. We're not going to have that kind of close relationship with God, as we had in the first place, until we're in heaven. As for now, God will be the invisible God. Not absent, but it seems like we need faith in order to believe in him. But on the other hand we saw that when he clearly showed himself in Jesus, people still wouldn't believe. Instead they decided to kill him for no good reason. I don't know, maybe Kierkegaard is right saying we need a leap of faith in order to believe. Then again I think there are many ways of becoming a believer. Someone's faith may be based on a certain event or perhaps someone base it on reasoning. I'll throw out the old clicḫ̩̉̉: God works in mysterious ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebdragon Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 I am assuming his existance, I am debating the fact that is is far from clearly shown on earth. I agree it's not clearly shown on earth. However, you could argue that all beatiful things in nature must have a creator or something similar. I don't see that as any real evidence, but saying that there is nothing that points towards his existence seems strange when there are such a vast amount of believers. I'm not saying these are strong arguments but my questions to you are really: Why do you think there are people like myself who are devout christians? Why do we want answers to metaphysical questions? Why are there scientologists? It's because you can't accept that you don't know (as well as Sat's points). I still find it funny that people laugh at agnostics, yet they're the only ones who actually know what they're talking about. [if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.] Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 It's because you can't accept that you don't know (as well as Sat's points). I still find it funny that people laugh at agnostics, yet they're the only ones who actually know what they're talking about. The Bible provides answers to metaphysical questions. They are either true or false. I believe they are true. Not really about knowing. What makes you think that there is no chance those answer can be true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebdragon Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 It's because you can't accept that you don't know (as well as Sat's points). I still find it funny that people laugh at agnostics, yet they're the only ones who actually know what they're talking about. The Bible provides answers to metaphysical questions. They are either true or false. I believe they are true. Not really about knowing. What makes you think that there is no chance those answer can be true? What makes you think you know your answers are true? Responding to the bolded part- I never said that. I said no one knows [that they know] the answers, not that it's impossible. It's faith, belief- you're guessing. Anyways, your post pretty much brings up the age old point that "what makes your religion better than anyone elses?". Sure, "the Bible provides answers", but so do another couple billion books. There is nothing to say that the Bible isn't completely wrong and some other religion's right. Again, I'm talking about knowing, not believing. [if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.] Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 It's because you can't accept that you don't know (as well as Sat's points). I still find it funny that people laugh at agnostics, yet they're the only ones who actually know what they're talking about. The Bible provides answers to metaphysical questions. They are either true or false. I believe they are true. Not really about knowing. What makes you think that there is no chance those answer can be true? What makes you think you know your answers are true? Responding to the bolded part- I never said that. I said no one knows [that they know] the answers, not that it's impossible. It's faith, belief- you're guessing. Anyways, your post pretty much brings up the age old point that "what makes your religion better than anyone elses?". Sure, "the Bible provides answers", but so do another couple billion books. There is nothing to say that the Bible isn't completely wrong and some other religion's right. Again, I'm talking about knowing, not believing. I'm not talking about knowing, I'm talking about believing. I can tell you why I believe I've found the truth but I won't really know for sure until I die. To think you know isn't the same as actually knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzeben23 Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 i believe that there is a god one who we can't see but he exists and even if we do die it'll be like going to bed and not waking up. Account created on Weds, December 21st, 200599 cooking on December 12th, 2010. 99 Agility on September 30th, 2011. 99 Fletching on August 17th, 2012. 99 Prayer on March 22nd, 2016. 99 Farming on April 4th, 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kewl_Sabre Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 I'm agnostic, so I really don't believe in a heaven or hell. What happens when we die? I don't know. The greatest mystery of life is death (women a close second), and I'm at peace with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangeresque Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 i dont believe in either so i dont really live my life based on thinking about that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now