Tip.It Times Presents: Robot Wars, aka Death of the Robots

[nadir]

read more carfully what i wrote. 60-80% CARE for highscores. those 10% ALREADY HAVE HIGHSCORES

 

 

 

"

 

"quite alot" is actually some 60-80%. why? because in most skills there is no point in getting from level 70 or 85, maybe some cases 90 to 99, unless you want to be high in the highscores. and it takes a BIG load of work to get from that 70-85 to 99. just for "nothing"? i doubt that. "

 

 

 

those that skill above these levels in all skills want either:

 

1. lots of rs cash

 

2. lots of rs cash to sell for real cash

 

3. highscores

 

 

 

how many would do any of the first 2 in: crafting, smithing, hunter, construction, prayer, slayer? (those poped in my mind, i did not consider the rest)

 

after you get to 90 crafting, you don't buy 50k (or what is the number to get to 99 crafting) black hides and make them ranger armour. why? because there are very few for sale. those that got to 99 crafting did that (IMHO) for HIGHSCORES. same for mining and smithing.

 

 

 

prayer, slayer, hunter, construction noone trains them after a certain level for anything else than getting to be in highscores

 

 

 

 

 

strange, Duke, you must have missed this in that interview:

 

"Interviews and anecdotal evidence

 

suggest players also make purchases to stay aligned with friends who have attained a higher level within the game"

 

hmmm... highscores?... nah...

 

You consider it competitive.

 

the interview you linked to finds people that consider that game competitive too... strange...

 

 

 

 

 

i read it, then i read it again... i just can't find anything about any players that don't like "gold miners", like i am. this can mean that gold miners there don't slow down or interfere with ordinary players, see cutting yews/mages, mining etc.

 

 

 

 

 

there is NOTHING about players that DON'T like that sistem. that's odd. there must be something bad in everything, but that report has only good news...1/1000000 must be unhappy and mentioned in the report... but the report only states what happend with the TRADERS, not with the REST.

 

 

 

 

 

"The main one being that it's going to ruin the game if you institutionalize it," Dibbell said. "Well, obviously, that's not reflected in this report."

 

because in the study no one asked the players that can't afford to buy with real money.

 

 

 

 

 

and btw: what you call "few big buyers" and "lots of smaller buyers" is relatively to your income, since for example for me someone that spends more than the monthly membership fee is a big spender.

 

 

 

i don't care if someone spends 10$ or 1k$, or 17k$. that person has an advantage. that advantage is gained with no work ingame, no fight with the gold miners at yews/mages/mining sites.

 

 

 

that person CREATES the usefullness of gold miners there and makes me stay there 2-3 times more time. 1 person is something.

 

 

 

"The Investigations in the Community Unit (ICU) have worked hard, double checked all the facts to make sure we're only getting the cheats, and then have banned 19075 accounts for breaking Rule 7." recently the sweatshops were included in rule 7, if i'm not mistaking

 

 

 

2300 players that buy rs coins must be sustained by at least 3-8 times (just bother to divide 19075 to those 2300) more gold-diggers that spend time in rs entirelly with the purpose of getting that 1 mil/10 mil/500 mil (i hope i don't have to remind you how many buy for those sums of rs coins rares) for rares or skilling up

 

 

 

if rule 12 is deleted, then you will not only see the gold farmers in free worlds at yews and coal and a few in members, you will see them in members everywhere too. this is a GAME, not a way to make real cash, and make skillers like me have a hard time cutting trees/mining etc

 

 

 

those 19075 accounts were created with the sole purpose to make rs cash. THINK about this. if you plan to work on your own, you'll get less than 1/19k of the real cash. WAY less, since those are only the ones that got caught. you will be competing against those sweatshops, since those are players, not bots

 

 

 

 

 

You're playing in a Virtual World.

 

that you want connected with the REAL world. that moment, the virtual world will be a little more real.

 

 

 

Unfairness arguements are quite pointless and irrelevant

 

who decides that they are pointless and irrelevants? you? me? i bring you arguments, you bring me "are quite pointless and irrelevant". nice one =D>

 

 

 

 

 

mods: would it be a good idea to have a pool something like:

 

do you care if your character is high in the highscores?

 

yes

 

no

 

 

 

you find it fair to allow players to buy rs cash (=skills xp/expensive items) with real money, knowing that most players can hardly afford monthly membership and lots can't afford that either?

 

yes

 

no

[Bludragon124]

Good article, it was worth the extra wait. :)

 

Most of the points that the Editor makes I agree with, except for commending Jagex on their decision to focus on P2P bots. Even though it wastes the autoers/gold farmers' money, F2P autoers/gold farmers can still pass their ill-gotten goods through to a members main, or simply sell them to members on the forums.

 

 

 

 

 

I think the point of commending them on that was to show that they actually did care about banning macroers. Banning f2p macros is one thing, but banning p2p ones, meaning they lose some money if they do, is quite another. They still need to work on both categories, but they're getting there.

 

 

 

 

 

Hehe, I can see an ultra-elite JaGex SWAT team busting into some kid's house who is trading real world money for Runescape gold. Now that's something I'd like to see.

[AlphaWolff]

I agree that Jagex is off to a good start. But a start is all it is. Banning members shows they are serious but we'll see as the next few weeks and even months progress how they continue to deal with this problem. I've been a 'scaper' since summer of 2001 and a little over a year ago I quit playing due to all the problems of botters and scammers. I recently began playing again and couldn't believe how prevailant the problem has become. Many times I wanted to report a suspicious player yet didn't as I didn't want Jagex to view me as a problem myself. I wonder how many other people don't report suspicious activity due to fear of being banned for making a mistake or too many complaints?

[muffins4all]

Glad they finally did something about it.

 

 

 

It's not totally fixed by any means, but I was just horrified when I saw 5 bots at magic logs, 10 fishing sharks, etc.

 

 

 

I reported atleast 100 through the message system.

 

 

 

They don't even make it hard to guess, like it says in the article.

 

 

 

I just saw one player macroing, named player1, then I just looked up on the high scores player2 - who also amazingly had 99 fishing and nothing else!

 

 

 

Banning players will not fix the problem permanently, having better detection scripts, more jagex staff in-game, (For the note of it, I have been playing for at least a year and have never seen one jagex staff) will help the issue.

 

 

 

The worst macroing I have ever seen was a person ranked 47th in fishing, with 26m? XP. They were a level 3, right next to me.

 

 

 

I reported them, the next day they didn't exist - which leads me to the question, was it really my report that had them removed? If so, why was I the only one that caught that?

[Father_Time89]

Everyone has stories about autoers they have seen, but frankly I've never seen an autoer (and if I have I've never recognised them) except for once (but only after a player mod pointed them out) there is a report button for dealing with them you know. Oh and how do i recognise an autoer from a regular trainer who doesn't talk?

[9thGenProwlgrin]

The Ignore List can be used as a note pad for short notes? Gotta try that...

 

 

 

Agreed ... brilliant! Fairy ring coordinates a click away. Yay! Why'd'n't I think of that?

[lonew0lf1974]

OK I almost never take issue with another persons post as i feel everyone has the right to their opinion. I still think you have a right to your opinion, but i find your logic deeply flawed. Let us reverse this for just a minute. You say real life and runescape go hand in hand and that it should not be a big deal if a few people spend their real world money on the game. Ok from what i gather you are in college lets use that for an example. you work hard for your grades at school right. How would you feel if the kid next to you never did his assignments failed their tests yet still got an A for the course because his mom has 2000+ skill total on runescape. Well now whats the point of you doing all that work if he gets it for nothing. You want that not new car that just came out. well sorry you can't get it because they where all bought up for 1 bil rs gold. If it is truly a vitural world as you state then it must be independent of the the real world. It doesn't take a great deal of people buying their way to wealth to affect you.

 

 

 

lonew0lf

[Duke_Freedom]

Ok from what i gather you are in college lets use that for an example. you work hard for your grades at school right. How would you feel if the kid next to you never did his assignments failed their tests yet still got an A for the course because his mom has 2000+ skill total on runescape. Well now whats the point of you doing all that work if he gets it for nothing.

 

 

 

The point remains that I am studying at university to educate myself, not to compete with other people over grades or anything. You still have a lot to learn about school and education apparently.

 

 

 

Apart from that, your comparison is not perfect. Key aspect that misses here is that people play RuneScape for fun and shouldn't be forced to do things they don't like, unlike real life education which is there to educate you and that is not necessarily always fun.

 

 

 

You want that not new car that just came out. well sorry you can't get it because they where all bought up for 1 bil rs gold. If it is truly a vitural world as you state then it must be independent of the the real world. It doesn't take a great deal of people buying their way to wealth to affect you.

 

 

 

Again, few people do it on such a massive scale. It's not going to have an effect on the economy, that's just a made up fairy tale told by those who oppose it for so called "unfairness" reasons. And it's a Virtual World with Real Life people playing in it, do not forget that. It is not independent of the real world at all.

[db29_yo]

gj jagex for it, u've only just scrathed the dam surface

 

 

 

look i go on and i see the sam number of bots in the fishing guild and otehrs as i did the day before...a change? well yes a minor one but hell there are thousands more i bet and what they banned i'd be willing to bet was only 5 percent of the bots

 

 

 

secondly go to the green drags, all you see are eitehr bots or sweatshop workers!!!

 

 

 

they are eitehr bots as i see many bots int he varrock square teleing at teh same tiem adn there is no way that is a coincidence, so eitehr they are bots and do it at teh same time or organized sweathsop workeers, they never say anythign when i went up there the only thig they said was in a foreign language

 

 

 

so i started killing the green drag sweatshop/bots and guess what i killed about 13 and caused countless more to telle, i guess they are predominantly sweatshop workers as they walk out of the way when attecked which means they have some intelligence unlike a macro (unless they made a macro like that), the funny thing is they kept coming back and back and back (btw they all have rune and a whip, 3 itemers, must be sweatshop), so ffs this is a huge problem jagex has only scrathed the dam surface and there is no denying it, jagex get on this and win this war u've injured one battalion and the rest of the army is still hiding so kill it completely

[Father_Time89]

 

Again, few people do it on such a massive scale. It's not going to have an effect on the economy, that's just a made up fairy tale told by those who oppose it for so called "unfairness" reasons. And it's a Virtual World with Real Life people playing in it, do not forget that. It is not independent of the real world at all.

 

 

 

So 2300 players will have little effect on the economy? Let me tell you something merchants have a large effect on the economy, and what they do is legal, now imagine a merchant who can get X amount of coins whenever he wants because he is rich in real life, one that can cut yews, kill dragons and mine coal while he sleeps because he has a bot, you're telling me that won't effect the economy? Few people do it as you say (with no proof), yet what exactly is stopping them from making dozens of accounts and keep doing the exact same thing on each one? That would seem the smart thing to do if they are dedicated to doing it on such a grand scale. You say runescape is not independant of time because it requires real palyers . . . well of course it requires real players, it also requires real time and real energy (although very little), besides that it is independant of real life (and don't bother correcting me unless it is relevant to your argument).

[alcoolj]

I'll meet you at the yews - please make your way to the Fally Yews on a F2P server and try to cut a tree there. Oh wait - you can't due to the 5-10 autoers there with the usual uniform and rubbish axes.

 

 

 

Jagex are all P&W at the moment - until the yews are clear of level 3-4's with names like jgh088, and xiang342 - you are fooled to think Jagex have cracked the bot community.

[Father_Time89]

Why doesn't jagex Ip ban the sweatshops and the autoers, better yet if all the sweatshops are in China put some anti-Chinese government stuff in Runescape and then the great firewall of China will have Runescape blocked off.

[lonew0lf1974]

Ok from what i gather you are in college lets use that for an example. you work hard for your grades at school right. How would you feel if the kid next to you never did his assignments failed their tests yet still got an A for the course because his mom has 2000+ skill total on runescape. Well now whats the point of you doing all that work if he gets it for nothing.

 

 

 

The point remains that I am studying at university to educate myself, not to compete with other people over grades or anything. You still have a lot to learn about school and education apparently.

 

 

 

Apart from that, your comparison is not perfect. Key aspect that misses here is that people play RuneScape for fun and shouldn't be forced to do things they don't like, unlike real life education which is there to educate you and that is not necessarily always fun.

 

 

 

Oh ok I don't understand it. You go to college why. I'm betting its so when you get out you can get a good paying job and make a good life for yourself. Lets make years of education lvls shall we a high school drop out let say is lvl 30. a high school grad about 50 tech school 65 4 year college 80 masters about a 90 and a doctorate 99.

 

 

 

All those years in school well thats the grinding your talking about. Now a person can get by and live with out most of that IRL. However their life will be much harder than someone who put in the years of training. But by what you are saying you wouldn't have a problem with say the guy that is going to the same job interview as you for a 200k a year job got it over you because he gave the boss his maxed ut RS account. Oh did I mention he's a high school drop out by the way. If that ever happened some one would be calling a lawyer.

 

 

 

Now the guy who put in hours upon hours in rs in order to be able to mine and smith rune. You think he's not going to get ticked off when he gets there only to find that the guy trying to mine that rune ore he wants just started last week but paid $500 to get 85 mining and 90 smithing. Yea ok I see that happening. Jagex is the judge in this case. You are arguing a losing defence.

 

 

 

Sorry but you won't find many people who think someone should be able to buy your way to the top in anything. People believe that people should work for what they get in life. That carries over to rs because it is full of honest hard working people who think others should earn what the get.

 

 

 

It is the cheats you see it as ok. Our prisons are full of people who saw nothing wrong with what they did. RS used to have a prison of sorts but they decided they death penalty worked just fine. You can argue with me all day but 90% of the honest players will tell you your dead wrong.

 

 

 

lonew0lf

[nadir]

lonew0lf1974, duke's idea of all this game is:

 

"i want to have fun and gain real cash". he puts aside all implications as "pointless and irrelevant" because he WANTS to. he is firmly convinced that only a madman (like me) would think different than him. only HIS opinion MATTERS, and ONLY his opinion is JUST. you CAN'T explain to him WHY he is wrong, because in his mind HE IS NEVER WRONG.

[Duke_Freedom]

nadir, can you stop with the personal attacks and leave my personal situation out of this discussion or do I need to let a mod point you to the Tip.it Rules? I'm done discussing with you, if you hadn't noticed that already. All my arguements against what you have said are in the article I have written.

 

 

 

Oh ok I don't understand it. You go to college why. I'm betting its so when you get out you can get a good paying job and make a good life for yourself.

 

 

 

You go to school to get yourself educated. Yes, that helps getting a good paying job - but it is mostly ment to allow you to be able to perform well doing that job.

 

 

 

All those years in school well thats the grinding your talking about.

 

 

 

As I said, school is there to educate you, it's not for fun necessarily. There's a huge difference in this.

 

 

 

But by what you are saying you wouldn't have a problem with say the guy that is going to the same job interview as you for a 200k a year job got it over you because he gave the boss his maxed ut RS account. Oh did I mention he's a high school drop out by the way.

 

 

 

That's that boss choice. If he's idiotic enough to give a job to some high school drop out just because he gave him his maxed RS account then that's his choice. I'm not going to be able to change anything to that anyway.

 

 

 

Apparently you are naive enough to think similiar practices (friends putting friends in high places in their company for example) doesn't already happen on an extreme scale?

 

 

 

If that ever happened some one would be calling a lawyer.

 

 

 

On what grounds would you try to prosecute him then?

 

 

 

People believe that people should work for what they get in life.

 

 

 

Sure. Weren't we talking about a game? What I find humorous about your guys arguements is that you seem to accuse me of bringing Real Life too much into RuneScape and yet all of you want RuneScape to be exactly like Real Life.

 

 

 

People play RuneScape for fun, you guys just seem to disagree with that already - you claim that they are playing RuneScape to feel excitement of achievements that require hard work. People already do enough hard work in Real Life - usually that is exactly what they are trying to avoid when playing these games.

 

 

 

You can argue with me all day but 90% of the honest players will tell you your dead wrong.

 

 

 

Again the joy of making up random numbers that even go against the numbers found in real research. It is ironic that you guys have to fall back to making up random numbers about it to argue your point of view.

[lonew0lf1974]

Yes I pulled the 90% out of the air. Does that make it not true? I don't think so. Your "research" is flawed there is no control group. their is no other side to the story. Thats what your getting here the other side of that story. How many of those players desided not to use the servers where money could buy what you wanted? If I where to go ask a group of f2p players if f2p should get more updates what do you think the % of them that said yes would be? Now ask that same question to a group of p2p players and I bet you get a vastly different answer. To get the opinion of the true player base you have to ask both. Research can and will be skewed to the result the researcher wants. All you have to do is find the "right" test group.

 

 

 

All that aside I don't see that many rants about removing rule 12. If players want a game where they don't have to grind out lvls they should look elsewhere. I draw my since of fun from the game because of the hard work I put into it.

 

 

 

Now that said I still think you have the right to your opinion Duke. I just happen to think its wrong just like you think mine is wrong. Neither one of us is going to change the others mind so I will agree to disagree on this one.

[Fuzimatt]

good for them its about time they mass ban them

[blouinator]

Very good read, im just glad Jagex is fianlly getting more involved in macros.

[Duke_Freedom]

Yes I pulled the 90% out of the air. Does that make it not true?

 

 

 

Yes that makes it not true.

 

 

 

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000196.php

 

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001469.php

 

 

 

Some other people's views: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archive ... php?page=1

 

 

 

Note that the site is large survey site on all kinds of issues.

[nadir]

nadir, can you stop with the personal attacks and leave my personal situation out of this discussion or do I need to let a mod point you to the Tip.it Rules?

 

 

 

oh great duke, please forgive me, don't do that. mommy, i think i need new pants!

 

 

 

duke, when i say something it IS MY POINT, and it HAS RELEVANCE TO ME. as youreself admit, there are others that say similar things. when you say that what i say is "pointless and irrelevant", you say "your point does not matter (because i, duke, say so) and has no relevance (because i, duke, say so)". this means that only your point is valid, mine is invalid by default BECAUSE YOU SAY SO.

 

 

 

clear numbers:

 

"banned 19075 accounts for breaking Rule 7"

 

"banned 2300 accounts for breaking Rule 12"

 

those are the accounts caught doing it, not ALL accounts that do it

 

by dividing 19075 to 2300 means that for every person that wants to buy rs coins there must be some 8 bots/players from sweatshops that play only for rs coins, not to have fun.

 

 

 

stop for a minute and THINK, duke. those bots or sweatshop workers cut yews and mine coal. they make mining/woodcutting 3-4 times harder for regular players that want to level up on their own, and in the little non-members worlds it's very frustrating to see that kind of number of players that only cut yews and mine coal.

 

 

 

you will say "but i'm against bots and sweatshops". as long as there is demand for rs coins to be exchanged for real money, there will be much more people than usual willing to make bots and create sweatshops. as long as bots and sweatshops exist, skilling in non-member's (and sometimes even in members, because i saw very recently at least 5 bots/sweatshop workers in lumby forest at yews) will be harder, and will make the game harder and way less fun for the regular players that don't want/have real/rs cash to buy those raw materials

 

 

 

this also adresses the "competition" part of the argument. as long as i have to compete with bots/sweatshop workers to get the same yew log/mage log/coal/green dragon etc., i will be against real world trading. because it brings us for each person that want to break rule 12 at least 8 players (just divide the rule 7 offenders by rule 12 offenders) interested not to play (because they would get bored and move to another skill) but to WORK at that yew tree/etc. 24/7, making the skilling there WAY HARDER FOR ME, and i have no doubt that it is harder for other players too.

 

 

 

you claim that study is the base for allowing in this game real world trading.

 

i say: if that study shows (to the owners of the game) that all things are so great, why the real world trading was not extended to ALL the servers of that game?

 

can't you realize there are major differences in skilling in that game and skilling in this one?

 

 

 

this is not ONLY about a few players. only those were caught in a week or so, and the seized rs assets could have been greater, but maybe, just maybe, some of them have real traded way before that, did not got caught, and used that rs coins to recharge crystal bow/repair barrows/get high levels in construction/buy lots of bones and used them, buy lots of raw materials for herblore and used them, then dropped the worthless pots/used the pots/bought lots of food and cooked it.

 

 

 

the seized assets are only what jagex saw in their banks/in inventory, not what they used to skill up before they got caught. what we see can be only the tip of the iceberg. it CAN be much bigger and us NOT have hard proof of it, but it's there, and it influences us.

 

 

 

 

 

THINK about what i said here, duke. THINK before discarding as "pointless and irrelevant"

[Duke_Freedom]

there are others that say similar things

 

 

 

People say a lot of things, them believing in it and saying it is relevant for them doesn't make any of it true. There are people who believe that the positions of Jupiter and Saturn have an effect on the stock markets, do you take those people seriously too then?

 

 

 

Stop acting like I'm some arrogant brat, it is tiresome and you're only making yourself look ridiculous. I listen to opinions if they have a slight amount logical or factual arguementation behind them, unlike your arguements which mostly consist of:

 

 

 

- Personal attacks because you disagree with my opinion

 

- Randomly made up numbers

 

- Discussion about bots, while it is simply a logical fallacity to defend rule 12 just because people who break rule 7 also break rule 12.

 

- Failing to read my posts well

 

 

 

i say: if that study shows (to the owners of the game) that all things are so great, why the real world trading was not extended to ALL the servers of that game?

 

 

 

Because enough people oppose Real Money Trading for all kinds of reasons. Even though (I believe that) all those reasons are based on ignorance and false truths, people still believe in them and so it is obviously much more tactful to avoid complaints by having both allowed and disallowed servers if you can - giving people the choice.

 

 

 

can't you realize there are major differences in skilling in that game and skilling in this one?

 

 

 

No. All these games have the same fundamental aspect called grinding.

[nadir]

Because enough people oppose Real Money Trading for all kinds of reasons. Even though (I believe that) all those reasons are based on ignorance and false truths, people still believe in them

 

i take this pretty personally.

 

Why would I care how another person got his levels? Why do you care?

 

why would i care? because that's MY fun. it's ME the person that decides what I care about, and not YOU.

 

Unfairness arguements are quite pointless and irrelevant - you are not directly competiting with other players.

 

i take this pretty personally. i decide what i call pointless to me and irrelevant to me, and NOT YOU, duke. the second you wrote that, you were thinking only of your oppinion, not at all at mine.

 

 

 

who is the judge to decide who is right and who is wrong here? you assume only you have the right to decide. so i'm not acting at all, you really ARE

some arrogant brat

 

 

 

And again, there are very few people who would spend so much on it that they'd gain such a fast progress in the game.

 

from the page you linked to

 

The auction site, which has operated since June 2005 on specific EverQuest II servers, generated player transactions of $1.87 million during its first year

.

 

if things would be simmilar in runescape and let's suppose 1$ would buy 50k rs coins (i agree you know more about the exchange rate, and i accept your imput here, but i doubt there is something like 1$ for less than 50k rs coins). this means 93.500.000.000 rs coins. i think you can fund with that kind of rs cash quite alot of characters for quite a boost. possibly more, if the exchange rate would be higher.

 

 

 

i'm not answering to you anymore, duke. i doubt you read and consider most of what i write anyway. i doubt you read carefully the pages you link to, since i got some interesting stuff against your idea from them.

 

 

 

i hope rule 12 stays. if jagex ever decides to try the same thing that was stated in that study, i hope it's separate servers with and without RMT and that there will be separate highscores. have your fun on the real money trading servers, i'm pretty sure i'll be on the other type of servers.

[Lunar_Drifter]

Great article. I don't play anymore, but to see them ban so many paying members at their own expense to help clean up the game is very admirable.

 

 

 

And just to point out, "quantity" is spelled wrong in the "Did you know.." section.

[SlightlyElven]

It's worth noting that Jagex has been concentrating on the bots with memberships, for which I heartily commend them. It's one thing to ban someone who's playing the game for free, but it's something else entirely to ban paying members in large numbers. This, along with the mass banning of players who have been real world trading, is a good indication of how seriously Jagex is taking the issue ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ they're willing to take a big hit to their income to clean up the game.

 

I'd like to point out that this changed my opinion quite a bit. I'm still miffed about f2p, because I do have a skiller, and the amount of bots at the Yews is ridiculous, but it's a good point I hadn't thought of when first reading the update.

 

 

 

Great article. :thumbsup:

[majnoon]

some of the autoers/macros/bots buying ALL the high level runes in mage arena also they ALL level 3 no skills at all listed in high score area .

 

 

 

doesn't look like jagex done anything at all there yet