Tip.It Times Presents: Robot Wars, aka Death of the Robots

[tummeling]

horay for jagex,

 

and a =D> =D> good article if u ask me :D

 

 

 

 

 

lol the did u know :wall: why didnt i think of that :wall:

[Duke_Freedom]

I'm not going to give you all a long lecture on the politics of sweatshops, or the immorality of real world trading ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ unless of course you want me to ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ even though it's tempting.

 

 

 

Because you'll be unable to defend your argument how real world trading is "immoral". There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it, if we disregard that it is against the rules.

[Unleasher10]

Who said all chinese people do that! Of couse they have the right to ply as much as everyone else!

 

 

 

If you want to say someone is racist say jagex is, as he is using infomation that Jagex provided. I wouldn't even go that far, as Jagex were just identifying a problem, and presenting that in the most simple way. Of course people in other places do it aswell, just jagex said that most people doing it are in China.

 

 

 

Jagex did definately not say that it's Chinese people that are "hooking up on the game like a job". They said "people from countries such as China and Korea". In other words, countries where cheap labour is available. It is racism because the Chinese aren't ruining the game, some Chinese people are taking part in real-world trading, along with other countries, and the idiots that buy the gold.

[kingbd]

It's always a positive thing to see Jagex do the right thing and make one more step towards making the game community a better place. But, from what I believe...

 

 

 

I've seen anywhere from 10 to 1,000 bots in a single week. Frequently I've also seen 50 bots in one special fishing place. This is on a members' server, as well; I'd hate to see what it's like on a freeplay server.

 

 

 

I don't know if everything that Jagex could be doing is going to stop autoers dead in their tracks. Perhaps, but only perhaps, a level requirement to upgrade to Members would make the process much less painful, but then again I wouldn't be certain.

 

 

 

As usual, this article is a good read.

 

actually, the level requirement would probably be a bad thing. They would just auto themselves to the required level and the problem then would be that people wouldn't know who was autoing and who wasn't. Also the level 3 skillers would lose out on this, unless it was a total level requirement, which would also be unfair because levels are harder to get on F2P

[Dragonmaker9]

Great article this week.

 

 

 

I was getting sick of some of the bots in the fishing guild and at the Yews in edgeville. However im happy now. I was also suprised Jagex banned member's accounts.

 

 

 

The did you know really helped! I now use it as a list of notes of my current personal tasks (e.g. pick up 200 flax and string my unstrung bows (so 200flax as the ignore name) or pick get a few construction levels to mount my big swordfish (con_msword)).

 

 

 

So the best article and most useful so far. Thanks loads!

[Solidus_77]

Very good article, so true getting rid of the demand for illegal gp that should seriously help (even though it's not like there will never be a demand, just less of one)

 

 

 

I also like this new use for the ignore list (*goes and deletes all the name on the ignore list*)

[scruff636b]

party at world 16 anyone?

[Coffee234]

Good job! Go Jagex! =D>

[nadir]

I'm not going to give you all a long lecture on the politics of sweatshops, or the immorality of real world

 

trading ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ unless of course you want me to ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ even though it's tempting.

 

 

 

Because you'll be unable to defend your argument how real world trading is "immoral". There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it, if we disregard that it is against the rules.

 

 

 

 

 

i'm not the editor, and i read your article at wich you link to, duke

 

 

 

if the real world money trading is alowed

 

 

 

1. you can't prove that a player is working in a sweatshop or a genuine

 

player, and you agree that there is no fun to compete with 15 other players that want your yew/rock to min/etc, that will most likely be there because they don't play for fun, they play only for real cash. those are not players and MUST BE BANNED

 

 

 

2. you cannot prove that you have 1 account and you buy from 3-5 others that are "skill pures" because you buy in real money, and they are not your own characters (see the rule that forbids trading between 2 of your own characters).

 

 

 

furthermore, it's very unfair towards players that use only 1 character and not use another one to "store stuff". most players complain about bank being too small, so it would be very unfair towards them

 

 

 

3. this is a GAME. we play for fun, we start with the same basic stuff, and we invest alot of our time to get our levels up. it's very unfair that some people could just buy their levels up (herblore, prayer, use only rune arrows, fletching, cooking, crafting, smithing, etc) while lots of the players have to work to have the same stuff. when someone comes and buys all that, it might be nothing. but there is a market, and that market is more than those 2k members (that were banned) strong. it's way bigger. it HAS impact on hard-working players.

 

 

 

4. why not Jagex sells high-lvl characters? you pay let's say 500$ (or 1000$ or whatever) and you get your 126 combat lvl character 99 in all skills, with 1 of each rares, and 500mil in bank. because the game is all about you getting all these for yourself, or swap them for something you earned in-game

 

 

 

just because you were banned because of real world trading is not a reason to find ways to prove that you were right and Jagex is wrong.

 

 

 

how much you worked to get your skills up, to raise all the cash to buy expensive stuff? would you like to see someone get the same thing (or way better) in 15 minutes from a lvl 3 character to your lvl (or better) just because he/she payed a real-world sum of cash?. what's the point then of the highscores? to prove who likes more a skill, or who has more real life cash to burn?

 

 

 

 

 

there is NOTHING RIGHT with real world trading

 

 

 

hey, i don't like other rules either, but this does not mean it's something wrong with them, it means i'm not perfect. changing the rules to fit you might have more bad things happenning to you that sticking with the present rules. to ask for the rules to be changed so that you can solve this way your financial problems is not a good idea at all.

[Moogel]

Please don't lecture us. :uhh: :ohnoes:

[Unleasher10]

Please don't lecture us.

 

If you don't like the lecturing, just don't read it.

[Moogel]

I like reading, just not the lectures.

[guyx5000]

horray fir jagex, btw i went fishing and there was mabey 2 or 3 autoers, and oune of them got killed by a river troll :mrgreen: . hay i just got an idea for a tip.it event, lots of ppl know about the d hid autoers rughtm lets have an event where we go andpk the lot :twisted: m thatle show them(i know this is the wrong form and i will go and post it in the right one

[nadir]

i am posting the reasons (as i see them) why real world trading shoud NOT be allowed.

 

 

 

it's all about fairness, all about all players having the chance to have fun. part of my fun (and from what i read in the article, it's editor's too) is to look how high i am in the highscores, and to know (use) that i have good items.

 

 

 

if i see players that just pay real cash and have in 15 minutes all that i have gathered in 1 year of play, the game is nowhere near as fun for me anymore. the game would be played mostly by people with lots of real cash to burn, and not by players that REALLY want to play.

[Isloman]

im currently on world 88, at catherby, fishing.

 

And i can tell you there are seriously 15+ level 10 and below bots within 3 spaces of me.

 

Jagex has gotten rid of a large number of macroers, but by it is no way near enough to begin balancing out the economy again.. it will be nice to see the prices of mages and sharks rise again, even if that means they'll be more expensive..

 

 

 

I think jagex needs to try impose some sort of system that is much harder for a program to circumvent than the current random events.. i think maybe some sort of system where you have to type in the code shown on screen would be far more effective, as it would be impossible for a program to be able to read it...

[Unleasher10]

i think maybe some sort of system where you have to type in the code shown on screen would be far more effective, as it would be impossible for a program to be able to read it...

 

Erm... the bots can solve cubes that rotate with symbols...they can see whether a random is saying their name or somebody else's, they can tell where banks are, they can run from agressive monsters, they can log when they see mods... yet they won't be able to make out letters on the screen?

[Fairness]

Some still can't. A big load of autoers frequently get killed by Cap'n Hand and other such people who run from the South Falador yew to the Draynor bank, for example.

[bbq_sauce]

i called my friend irl to tell him about the post on the rs site.. i was excited <3

 

 

 

i did the same when construction came out =P

 

 

 

 

 

Go jagex..

 

 

 

 

 

they need an update so i can pk kittens in teh wildy..

[the_drunk_dude]

first things first, rs is in need of cleaning up and im glad jagex is doing it because most f2p mmos i've played the company usually ignores it

 

 

 

now second, WOW the grammar mistakes XD i've been counting grammar mistakes in all the book im reading and aritcles and stuff and i just happen to read this one and it had quite a few.

 

 

 

sry, side affect of studying for the freaking SATs, gotta memorize all 13 of those common grammar mistakes... stupid idioms

[millenium80]

Who would want to risk their character for a few Million gp? I wouldn't!

 

Great work Jagex!! :wink: :thumbsup:

[Duke_Freedom]

nadir, you haven't done anything to show why it is immoral, in case you forgot what the debate was about.

 

 

 

Your points 1) and 2) are merely technical issues, unrelated to this discussion. Enforcing rule 12 has it's own issues like that as well. However this is all quite unrelated to whether it is moral or not.

 

 

 

3. this is a GAME. we play for fun, we start with the same basic stuff, and we invest alot of our time to get our levels up.

 

 

 

If you read my article, you'd know that I consider the bolded and italic parts arguments for allowance rather than against. If you really believe in the bolded part, you'd actually agree with me. As I said in my article, the "need" for the RMT service comes from a fundamental aspect of these games: massive 'grinding'.

 

 

 

it's very unfair that some people could just buy their levels up (herblore, prayer, use only rune arrows, fletching, cooking, crafting, smithing, etc) while lots of the players have to work to have the same stuff. when someone comes and buys all that, it might be nothing.

 

 

 

A typical sentence written by those who oppose real money trading: stating that it is unfair, without providing actual arguements why it would be so unfair. I'm not impressed with the arguement that other players have to "work" for their stuff - as I pointed out in my own article, I disagree with the general thought that RuneScape is a competitive game. It is nothing like a game of chess, monopoly or whatever and essentially it doesn't matter at all what individual players do in the game world. It shouldn't matter to you whether Joe around the corner spend 10 hours RuneCrafting to afford his whip or bought it with real money.

 

 

 

I'd also urge you to reread the results of Sony Entertainments research on this - there are very few players who would really spend masses of money on it, even if it were allowed.

 

 

 

it HAS impact on hard-working players.

 

 

 

In what sense? You completely fail to mention why.

 

 

 

4. why not Jagex sells high-lvl characters?

 

 

 

Like 1) and 2), this is unrelated to whether it is moral or not. Anyway, if you really want to know, there are huge issues with game companies selling items or characters themselves. It causes inflation issues and highers the 'average standard of levels'.

 

 

 

Do not forget that RMT is essentially zero-sum, it changes nothing to what exists in the game's economy. Game companies selling items and characters would be completely the opposite of that and would have an effect on the games economy, in opposite to players trading between each other.

 

 

 

would you like to see someone get the same thing (or way better) in 15 minutes from a lvl 3 character to your lvl (or better) just because he/she payed a real-world sum of cash?

 

 

 

Why would I care how another person got his levels? Why do you care? And again, there are very few people who would spend so much on it that they'd gain such a fast progress in the game.

 

 

 

what's the point then of the highscores?

 

 

 

How many people actually care so much about the highscores?

[ProZac_Rehab]

I'm not impressed with the arguement that other players have to "work" for their stuff - as I pointed out in my own article, I disagree with the general thought that RuneScape is a competitive game. It is nothing like a game of chess, monopoly or whatever and essentially it doesn't matter at all what individual players do in the game world. It shouldn't matter to you whether Joe around the corner spend 10 hours RuneCrafting to afford his whip or bought it with real money.

 

 

 

What do you think is the goal of runescape? don't think anyone would find it entertaining to just run around and do nothing? earning money, get high skills and brag bout your wealth... why else would anyone buy a useless phat or mask?

 

 

 

I'd also urge you to reread the results of Sony Entertainments research on this - there are very few players who would really spend masses of money on it, even if it were allowed.

 

 

 

do you mean there are not many people buy rs money? in that case, explain the growing population of goldfarmers and autoers plz.

 

 

 

what's the point then of the highscores?

 

 

 

How many people actually care so much about the highscores?

 

 

 

I think quite alot care bout highscores, even here lots of people put their ranking in certain skills in their sig...

[Duke_Freedom]

What do you think is the goal of runescape?

 

 

 

There is no set "goal" of RuneScape. People play the game for different reasons, one person only does combat and loves pking, another one likes skilling and tries to have all his skills among the same level, the third person loves trading. They all play the game for different reasons. There is no "you should play the game this way".

 

 

 

People play for fun, remember?

 

 

 

do you mean there are not many people buy rs money? in that case, explain the growing population of goldfarmers and autoers plz.

 

 

 

I said few people spend much money on it - that's something completely different. Just read this: http://arden.blogs.com/swn/2007/02/sony_releases_v.html

[nadir]

If you read my article, you'd know that I consider the bolded and italic parts arguments for allowance rather than against. If you really believe in the bolded part, you'd actually agree with me. As I said in my article, the "need" for the RMT service comes from a fundamental aspect of these games: massive 'grinding'.

 

 

 

you call "fun" getting from a game stuff to help your real life. i call "fun" doing something in a game that puts me up against people that have the same chances as me, otherwise i would not play MMORPG, i would play 1-player games.

 

 

 

the massive grinding IS the game

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A typical sentence written by those who oppose real money trading: stating that it is unfair, without providing actual arguements why it would be so unfair. I'm not impressed with the arguement that other players have to "work" for their stuff - as I pointed out in my own article, I disagree with the general thought that RuneScape is a competitive game.

 

 

 

it is unfair because i play to have the same chances as the other players. if i see players that can just buy with real money 50k drag bones while i can't buy that because i would never spend that much, and it would take me maybe 6 months to get that many from kills, it's not fun at all.

 

 

 

as above, if i would want a non-competitive game, i would play 1-player games. as very good pointed out by ProZac_Rehab, why would so many people wish for useless santas, phats, etc? why would someone work 6 months just to be able to say "i have now full dragon, i'm not a noob anymore!" (a friend of mine told me that's his dream). it IS competitive, belive it, or not

 

 

 

 

 

I'd also urge you to reread the results of Sony Entertainments research on this - there are very few players who would really spend masses of money on it, even if it were allowed.

 

 

 

"In the last week we have banned 2300 accounts for breaking Rule 12 by buying RuneScape gold."

 

 

 

that's just the tip (or less) of the iceberg. i don't call that "few players"

 

 

 

 

 

In what sense? You completely fail to mention why.

 

 

 

in the sense of the rest of my post?...

 

 

 

 

 

Like 1) and 2), this is unrelated to whether it is moral or not. Anyway, if you really want to know, there are huge issues with game companies selling items or characters themselves. It causes inflation issues and highers the 'average standard of levels'.

 

 

 

Do not forget that RMT is essentially zero-sum, it changes nothing to what exists in the game's economy. Game companies selling items and characters would be completely the opposite of that and would have an effect on the games economy, in opposite to players trading between each other.

 

 

 

if Jagex decided to alow real world trading why would not they just sell that? they are corporation for proffit, remember? that way, all the proffit would go in THEIR pockets, not YOURS.

 

 

 

It causes inflation issues and highers the 'average standard of levels'

 

there are very few players who would really spend masses of money on it, even if it were allowed.

 

if there are very few players, as you say, the difference would be minimmal. if there are lots of gold farmers, using 3-4+ computers at the same time, they would get there (to high levels and to make lots of coins) pretty fast too.

 

 

 

one of your statements IS false. you can't have inflation if there are very few players wanting to buy rs coins with real money

 

 

 

 

 

"moral" is all about unfair advantage. if i knew i can get only in 15 years what the top 10k players (it's an understatement 10k players, i really do belive there are more who would buy rs coins) got in 15 minutes, it would be a HUGE gap. i don't say they got that in 15 minutes, i say that if it is alowed real world trading, at least 10k players would buy huge amounts of rs coins and get on top of the highscores, wich i find very unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

Game companies selling items and characters would be completely the opposite of that and would have an effect on the games economy, in opposite to players trading between each other.

 

 

 

it's easy to release very expensive items, that break sometimes, see barrows, crystal bow. that would balance the economy.

 

 

 

players trading eachother coins for real cash would bring in lots of goldfarmers, that want to cut mages for real cash, and almost never let players that want to play the game to cut the mages... i cut yews in free servers when my membership expired... it was HELL with only 7 bots... and that WILL happen if there were gold farmers instead of bots

 

 

 

 

 

ProZac_Rehabwrote:

 

I think quite alot care bout highscores, even here lots of people put their ranking in certain skills in their sig...

 

 

 

thank you. may i say a little thing: my oppinion is that "quite alot" is actually some 60-80%. why? because in most skills there is no point in getting from level 70 or 85, maybe some cases 90 to 99, unless you want to be high in the highscores. and it takes a BIG load of work to get from that 70-85 to 99. just for "nothing"? i doubt that.

 

 

 

look in the highscores and tell me how many skilled to 200k in some skills? why would they do that if they don't care about highscores? why?!?!

 

 

 

 

 

Duke, your only concern is to solve your real life problems by "bending" the rules of a game. i say again: think of the consequences. i have quite some rs cash too, and in my real life i have little money. i would LOVE to exchange it for real money, but that would RUIN MY FUN in the game. i think you don't care anymore about having fun in-game, you care about real life money. it's easy to get rid of this rule, but it would be very hard to enforce it back.

 

 

 

 

 

There is no set "goal" of RuneScape. People play the game for different reasons, one person only does combat and loves pking, another one likes skilling and tries to have all his skills among the same level, the third person loves trading. They all play the game for different reasons. There is no "you should play the game this way".

 

 

 

People play for fun, remember?

 

 

 

your fun is to get real money. my fun is to skill and to see my skills up in the highscores, and to know i'm one of the few that bothered to get there.

 

 

 

it would RUIN MY FUN if i knew it's normal that 10k+ players have highscores because they just bought the raw materials instead of grinding hours/days/weeks like me and got their levels in 1/4 or less of my time. it would mean it's pointless for me to do all that, because it's faster another way.

 

 

 

example: how many would do quests when they know there is a guide? it's way faster with the guide, but LESS FUN. same thing with the grinding. you get there, but you just bought the thing, it would have way less meaning. AND it ruins MY FUN (i can't speak about other people, but if you look at the highscores, lots of them want to be high there).

 

 

 

from my experience, those that merchant want lots of cash to buy expensive stuff, or just to get a skill up faster. then again, i can't be sure about that :P

 

 

 

yes, people play for fun. and that fun would be diminished if some would just buy the stuff in 15 minutes with real cash, while others have to fight 7+ gold farmers at mages or mining rocks. you have no idea how hard it was for me to cut those yews against 7 others that were there just to cut them and sell them for real cash. it took me 2-3 times more time to get the same amount of logs. those ARE gold farmers, be they bots, or sweatshops, or people like you.

[Duke_Freedom]

the massive grinding IS the game

 

 

 

Many players don't like the massive grinding and many players will disagree with this. Most players play for the friends they make, the community, the pking, the minigames, the trading, the quests and the ability to do a lot in the game world.

 

 

 

it is unfair because i play to have the same chances as the other players. if i see players that can just buy with real money 50k drag bones while i can't buy that because i would never spend that much, and it would take me maybe 6 months to get that many from kills, it's not fun at all.

 

 

 

"In the last week we have banned 2300 accounts for breaking Rule 12 by buying RuneScape gold."

 

 

 

that's just the tip (or less) of the iceberg. i don't call that "few players"

 

 

 

Are you guys ever going to read what I actually say?

 

 

 

there are very few players who would really spend masses of money on it, even if it were allowed.

 

 

 

Try to look at second bolded part, instead of staring yourself blind only on the first bolded part. Very few would buy anything ridiculous like 50K dragon bones. That's not a guess or a made up ideology, that are the facts as published by Sony. I'm not saying very few people (would) do it, I'm saying very few would do it on a large scale. You guys just don't even seem to be able to read what I actually say.

 

 

 

The 6bil / week figure published by Jagex, divided by the 2300 accounts / week figure published by Jagex already shows us an average of 2.6mil per account. You can barely buy a whip with that. Let alone 50K dragon bones. :roll:

 

 

 

it IS competitive, belive it, or not

 

 

 

You consider it competitive. The 'game' in itself is not - there is no "you must do this and that", so there is no "you must play it competitively" either. If you want complete equality and competitivity, go play StarCraft, Counter-Strike or whatever. Rest assured that everyone starts completely equal in those games.

 

 

 

"moral" is all about unfair advantage. if i knew i can get only in 15 years what the top 10k players (it's an understatement 10k players, i really do belive there are more who would buy rs coins) got in 15 minutes, it would be a HUGE gap. i don't say they got that in 15 minutes, i say that if it is alowed real world trading, at least 10k players would buy huge amounts of rs coins and get on top of the highscores, wich i find very unfair.

 

 

 

Again you overestimate how many people would spend so much on it and I think I'm gonna stop this discussing till you get your facts straight and read Sony's research I linked to. Also, there are multiple things that are unfair advantages in these games, including people who have more time, people who have played from start, etc.

 

 

 

Unfairness arguements are quite pointless and irrelevant - you are not directly competiting with other players. You're playing in a Virtual World. There are no starting conditions, no winning conditions, nothing. The 'game' is what you make of it.

 

 

 

thank you. may i say a little thing: my oppinion is that "quite alot" is actually some 60-80%.

 

 

 

Oh the joy of making up random numbers.

 

 

 

look in the highscores and tell me how many skilled to 200k in some skills? why would they do that if they don't care about highscores? why?!?!

 

 

 

You do realize that 200K is still a far minority? Certainly doesn't make up for 60-80%, but rather 10% at most, allowing me to use your own numbers against you. ;)

 

 

 

i think you don't care anymore about having fun in-game

 

 

 

I don't think I ever related my fun ingame to others in such a direct way as you say you do. In fact I don't believe Zezima, Novalyfe, etc do either - in the interviews Tip.It did with them they seem to say that they mostly play for themselves and not for the highscores too. ;)