The world's end

[rocketman089]

The Aztecs had a calendar... they did not BRING the calendar. Europe, Asia and Africa had a calendar LONG before the Aztecs came into the picture.

 

 

 

and the war on Afghanistan and Iraq would have never happened, even if Bush had taken his place or another republican, the ground would have not been ready for making a war, and the population would have not accepted it.

 

I don't care who was president after 9/11. Blood was going to be spilled of whoever did it.

 

 

 

That part was the author's sneaky way of saying Bush did 9/11.

[shadow_00083]

About going to war with Afghanistan...

 

 

 

Even if Bush wasn't president, it still would have happened.

 

 

 

I mean come on, your telling me that Bush payed like 19 guys, who died, so they wouldnt be getting any money at all :P to hi-jack planes run them into buildings, ask some guy to take the blame for it, and go to war with the country, yea its really all Bush's fault :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

About the end of the world..

 

 

 

We can't really do anything, I believe that when the worlds end is coming, God will cause it. not us.

[Defender2516]

People may hate me for saying this, but i'm going to say it anyway.

 

 

 

America is only blessed because it supports God and we also support Israel, Gods chosen people.

 

 

 

For over 200 years the rules in Education were to teach the bible, then teach morality, and then teach knowledge (in that excate order).

 

 

 

This changed during the 1960's when God was taken out of schools, only 50 years ago. Yet look at how much trouble we have now as a nation when God is not present?

 

 

 

I seriously believe were only existing as a nation today under the grace of God.

 

 

 

Honestly think about it, America had NO CHANCE verse Britian. To Britian they was just a band of rebels needed to be taken out. Yet they prevailed because their goal was to set up a Government by the people, for the people, and of the people. These were christian men who did this.

 

 

 

The very foundation of the constitution and seperation of powers, the idea came from the Bible. The founding fathers mentioned many times how that the absolute truths of the world is the word of God.

 

 

 

Now, look how blessed America is. It is the greatest superpower in the world. All Gods blessing, not just randomly luck and a few smart men.

 

 

 

I love that one simple statement.. "We hold these truths to be self-evident". Amazing isn't it? Gods word and its truth are SELF EVIDENT A.K.A. Obvious!

 

 

 

Yet in todays society, by electing people who are not pro-life end up taking away all sorts of ethics from people which was set up in the first place! Such as not showing the 10 commandments or prayer in school.

 

 

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

 

 

In 1690, teaching was done in catechism's. This is a FIRST GRADE book on it, till its end in 1930. It has 168 questions, but i'll list its first few.

 

 

 

1. Wherein consists christ humilation?

 

2. Wherein does christ humilation consist?

 

3. How are we made partakers in the redemption purchased by christ?

 

4. How does the spirit apply to us redemption purchased by christ?

 

5. What is effectual calling?

 

 

 

Today just mentioning Christ as a teacher could get you fired. Hell.. huggin a student can get you sued!

 

 

 

When you take out the word of God, you take out the knowledge of right and wrong, thus, it only leaves you with dry knowledge, but no morality and sense of direction, absolute truth sense of direction, not what you "believe" to be true, because how does any of us really know?

 

 

 

Reguardless if people like it or not, America was founded apon christianity, its in the books, go do some research and America was GREATLY BLESSED because they did things the way the Bible said to do them.

 

 

 

Now with all these things getting changed, notice we have so much trouble now days..

 

 

 

Flame me all you want, it doesn't change the Truth.

 

 

 

Fantatic Christian FTW! :P

 

 

 

~Defender~

[Bubsa]

Ah yes, an apocalyptic thread from a member who has been watching too many 9/11 conspiracies and still resents Bush's election.

 

 

 

Yep, haven't had a 10 page flame war on things no-one has the answer to for hooo, 2 weeks now? Let this begin!

[Satenza]

Give me a break, the founding fathers were just as fed up with Christianity as anyone. You beleive you preach the truth, but you preach lies defender. America was founded on free thought, from europe. They would be sickened if they saw the religious right take away everything they created.

 

 

 

Jefferson: "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

 

 

 

Franklin: "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."

 

 

 

Madison: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

 

 

 

Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."

 

 

 

Adams: "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

 

 

 

Paine: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

 

 

 

Washington: "Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

 

 

 

I dont even think you know what "seperation of powers" means. Here you are supporting the enforcement of your twisted insane morality and at the same time saying the Bible supports the seperation of powers. Ridiculous.

 

 

 

1796 Tripoli Treaty:

 

 

 

[highlanders]

That part was the author's sneaky way of saying Bush did 9/11.

 

What I have said is that Al Gore wouldn't have gotten the USA into those wars of oil price control, wether 9/11 was made by terrorists or not, it doesn't matter. I'm flattered you remember my opinion about the 9/11. I'm also flattered you'd think I was sneaky enough to make a whole post just to get a subconscious message that not 1% of you would understand, but no. What I have always find funny is how people think of me to be much more sneaky than I actually am, like batman planning things and hiding secrets. :lol:

[rocketman089]

Trust me, I wasn't trying to flatter you.

[darkmage099]

Defender, is it a BAD thing that people believe differently than yourself? Is believing in something different or the same but a different way a BAD thing?

 

Would the U.S. be better off if there were not Hindus, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or any other religion? How so if the answer is yes.

[britrockdude]

Oh boy, more global warming debate....

 

 

 

I think it's industry that needs to cut back on energy consumption. Normal people should do what they can but not be so coerced unless they use an extraordinary amount.

 

 

 

Basically:

 

 

 

If humans are affecting the environment, we should try to do our part to cut energy usage (and hey, that'll lower your utility bill).

 

 

 

If they arent, hey, see above, always good to have more money laying around!

 

 

 

Whatever happens will happen really. If the catastrophic catastrophes happen, it'll be the world's way of equalling things out.

[Agunimon979]

 

 

 

This changed during the 1960's when God was taken out of schools, only 50 years ago. Yet look at how much trouble we have now as a nation when God is not present?

 

 

 

~

 

 

 

 

 

Muslims, Negros, yeah.

 

 

 

 

 

Christianity ftw!!

[assassin_696]

People may hate me for saying this, but i'm going to say it anyway.

 

 

 

America is only blessed because it supports God and we also support Israel, Gods chosen people.

 

 

 

The issue of Israel-Palestine is a seperate issue which i'm considering raising in a new thread.

 

 

 

For over 200 years the rules in Education were to teach the bible, then teach morality, and then teach knowledge (in that excate order).

 

 

 

This changed during the 1960's when God was taken out of schools, only 50 years ago. Yet look at how much trouble we have now as a nation when God is not present?

 

 

 

Absolutely false, as Satenza said America was founded as a secularist nation. There was a recent court ruling in Dover Pensylvania banning the teaching of Intelligent Design in schools because it was bringing religion into the education system. I actually have no objections to religious education as long as it's presented in a completely objective way.

 

 

 

I'd like to see you explain away the fact that the highest crime rates, the highest murder rates the highest capital punishment rates and the highest divorce rates are all in the Bible belt states.

 

 

 

I seriously believe were only existing as a nation today under the grace of God.

 

 

 

Honestly think about it, America had NO CHANCE verse Britian. To Britian they was just a band of rebels needed to be taken out. Yet they prevailed because their goal was to set up a Government by the people, for the people, and of the people. These were christian men who did this.

 

 

 

The founding fathers succeeded because of guerrilla military tactics, better planning and strategy and an element of luck, not divine intervention

 

 

 

The very foundation of the constitution and seperation of powers, the idea came from the Bible. The founding fathers mentioned many times how that the absolute truths of the world is the word of God.

 

 

 

It came from the founding fathers fed up with religious oppression.

 

 

 

Now, look how blessed America is. It is the greatest superpower in the world. All Gods blessing, not just randomly luck and a few smart men.

 

 

 

That's absolute and utter bs. Where have you been living? America has prospered because of massive natural resources, a successful capitalist industry and common ideals. There's still a lot of problems with America though.

 

 

 

I love that one simple statement.. "We hold these truths to be self-evident". Amazing isn't it? Gods word and its truth are SELF EVIDENT A.K.A. Obvious!

 

 

 

Jefferson's word, actually.

 

 

 

Yet in todays society, by electing people who are not pro-life end up taking away all sorts of ethics from people which was set up in the first place! Such as not showing the 10 commandments or prayer in school.

 

 

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

 

 

See the earlier point, you're suggesting people without religious absolutist barbaric slave morals cannot be moral, when the opposite is true.

 

 

 

In 1690, teaching was done in catechism's. This is a FIRST GRADE book on it, till its end in 1930. It has 168 questions, but i'll list its first few.

 

 

 

1. Wherein consists christ humilation?

 

2. Wherein does christ humilation consist?

 

3. How are we made partakers in the redemption purchased by christ?

 

4. How does the spirit apply to us redemption purchased by christ?

 

5. What is effectual calling?

 

 

 

Today just mentioning Christ as a teacher could get you fired. Hell.. huggin a student can get you sued!

 

 

 

Those questions have nothing to do with modern day issues or ethics, get over it.

 

 

 

When you take out the word of God, you take out the knowledge of right and wrong, thus, it only leaves you with dry knowledge, but no morality and sense of direction, absolute truth sense of direction, not what you "believe" to be true, because how does any of us really know?

 

 

 

Oh please. As if any of us really got our morals from divine powers. The roots of morality are steeped in Darwinian evolution, not your bigoted absolutist God(s).

 

 

 

Reguardless if people like it or not, America was founded apon christianity, its in the books, go do some research and America was GREATLY BLESSED because they did things the way the Bible said to do them.

 

 

 

Now with all these things getting changed, notice we have so much trouble now days..

 

 

 

Flame me all you want, it doesn't change the Truth.

 

 

 

Fantatic Christian FTW! :P

 

 

 

And yet, the biggest threat posed to the freedom and safety of the constitution and American ideals comes from the Christian right, ironic really.

[Tigra00]

Shhh, as long as those silly gay people can't get married, the Christian right can do whatever they want!

[warri0r45]

I think you'll find I'm with you on the aspects of morality there, assassin.

[Ambassadar]

Where did you get your quotes Satenza? I would like to read them in full context. My guess is most of them are voicing displeasure with the strife in Europe over religion in the form of the institution of man and man hijacking it for their own ends rather than against Christianity and God in particular.

 

 

 

Check out what the Continental Congress ordered of the Continental Army. It is impossible to say the founders of this nation were fed up with Christianity if you read their order to the army.

 

 

 

Washington(orders to the Continental Army):The Continental Congress having ordered, Friday the 17th. Instant to be observed as a day of "fasting, humiliation and prayer, humbly to sppplicate the mercy of Almighty God, that it would please him to pardon all our manifold sins and transgressions, and to prosper the Arms of the United Colonies, and finally, establish the peace and freedom of America, upon a solid and lasting foundation" -- The General commands all officers, and soldiers, to pay strict obedience to the Orders of the Continental Congress, and by their unfeigned and pious observance of their religious duties, incline the Lord, and Giver of Victory, to prosper our arms.

 

 

 

More quotes, excerpts and letters from the same people

 

Jefferson(letter to Thomas Smith): ... Few words will be necessary, with good dispositions on your part. Adore God. Reverence and cherish your parents. Love your neighbor as yourself, and your country more than yourself. Be just. Be true. Murmur not at the ways of Providence. So shall the life into which you have entered, be the portal to one of eternal and ineffable bliss. And if to the dead it is permitted to care for the things of this world, every action of your life will be under my regard. Farewell.

 

 

 

Franklin(letter to his sister Jenny): ...You express yourself as if you thought I was against Worshipping of God, and believed Good Works would merit Heaven; which are both Fancies of your own, I think, without Foundation. I am so far from thinking that God is not to be worshipped, that I have composed and wrote a whole Book of Devotions for my own Use: And I imagine there are few, if any, in the World, so weake as to imagine, that the little Good we can do here, can merit so vast a Reward hereafter.

 

 

 

 

 

Adams(Aug. 14, 1796 Diary entry): One great advantage of the Christian religion is that it brings the great principle of the law of nature and nations- Love your neighbor as yourself, and do unto others you would that others should do to you... No other institution for education, no kind of political discipline, could diffuse this kind of necessary information, so universally among all ranks and descriptions of citizens. The duties and rights of the man and the citizen are thus taught from early infancy to every creature. Etc. etc saying good stuff the Christian religion brings to society.

 

 

 

 

 

Washington: The man must be bad indeed who can look upon the events of the American Revolution without feeling the warmest gratitude towards the great Author of the Universe whose divine interposition was so frequently manifested in our behalf. And it is my earnest prayer that we may so conduct ourselves as to merit a continuance of those blessings with which we have hitherto been favored.

 

 

 

 

 

Alexander Hamilton's last correspondence to his wife before he died: This is my second letter. The scruples of a Christian have determined me to expose my own life to any extent, rather than subject myself to the guilt of taking the life of another. This much increases my hazards and redoubles my pangs for you. But you had rather I should die innocent than live guilty. Heaven can preserve me, and I humbly hope will; but, in the contrary event, I charge you to remember that you are a Christian. God's will be done! The will of a merciful God must be good. Once more, Adieu, my darling, darling wife.

 

 

 

I have loads and loads more quotes to support this position if that didn't sway your opinion... Just tired of typing for the moment.

[Satenza]

Congress is known to have edited many things in order to pander to the people of the country. That doesn't mean that the founders, themselves were Christians.

[Ambassadar]

Then why are they sounding pretty Christian in my above quotes that were mostly taken from private letters?

[Ambassadar]

Here is a private letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson written in 1813. If you read carefully what he is saying he says that Christian principles played a large part in uniting the country and enabled the US to be formed in the first place and that these Christian principles are eternal just as God is.

 

 

 

The general principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young gentlemen could unite, and these principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity., in which all those sects were United: and the general principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young men united, and which had united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

 

 

 

Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane system. I could therefore safely say, consistently with all my then and present information, that I believed they would never make discoveries in contradiction to these general principles. In favour of these general Principles in philosophy, Religion, and Government, I could fill sheets of quotations from Frederick of Prussia, from Hume, Gibbon, Bolingbroke, Reausseau and Voltaire, as well as Neuton and Locke: not to mention thousands of Divines and Philosphers of inferiour Fame.

 

 

 

I still would like to see the source of your quotes so I can read them in context when you can get around to it also Satenza. Thanks.

[Satenza]

Why were they sounding anti-christian in the quotes i presented? Your guess is as good as mine. They probably saw the values in christian ideals, but in practice knew of it's dangers. They were, on the majority deists, as in they beleived in a God but were not sure of it's specific qualities.

 

 

 

Sources

 

 

 

Infomation

 

An essay

 

An article

 

Another essay

 

Legal Infomation

 

EDIT: An interesting Page On Quotes From The Founding Fathers

[Ambassadar]

Why were they sounding anti-christian in the quotes i presented?

 

 

 

I have no idea. That is why I want to read them from first hand material and check out those quotes to make sure they are legit since they are so completely different from what I have read from the founders. My guess is they were taken out of context.

 

 

 

I looked up that Adams quote you put down and google didn't return any results for it hardly except some guy on another forum quoting it.

 

 

 

All I know is I can pull out loads and loads and loads of pro Christian quotes from the founders. The Continental Congress prayed on a regular basis during the War for Independence. Most stuff I read sounds like most founders had a deep respect for Christianity and God. Of course they differed on doctrine but on the basics most seem to agree from what I have read.

[Ambassadar]

Thanks for editing and adding the sources Satenza. I'm about to get off the computer so I will check them when I get back on.

 

 

 

 

For over 200 years the rules in Education were to teach the bible, then teach morality, and then teach knowledge (in that excate order).

 

 

 

This changed during the 1960's when God was taken out of schools, only 50 years ago. Yet look at how much trouble we have now as a nation when God is not present?

 

 

 

 

Absolutely false, as Satenza said America was founded as a secularist nation.

 

 

 

Benjamin Rush "Of the Mode of Education Proper in a Republic" 1798

 

 

 

I proceed in the next place, to enquire, what mode of education we shall adopt so as to secure to the state all the advantages that are to be derived from the proper instruction of the youth; and here I beg leave to remark, that the only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.

 

 

 

Such is my veneration for every religion that reveals the attributes of the Deity, or a future state of rewards and punishments, that I had rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mahomed inculcated upon our youth than tsee them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles. But the religion I mean to recommend in this place is that of the New Testament.

 

 

 

It is foreign to my purpose to hint at the arguments which establish the truth of the Christian revelation. My only business is to declare, that all its doctrines and precepts are calculated to promote the happiness of society, and the safety and well being of civil government. A Christian cannot fail of being a republican(referring to the government type, not the political party).... A Christian, I say again, cannot fail of being a republican, for every precept of the Gospel inculcates those degrees of humility, self-denial, and brotherly kindness, which are directly opposed to the pride of monarchy and the pageantry of a court. A Christian cannot fail of being useful to the Republic, for his religion teacheth him, that no man "liveth to himself." And lastly a Christian cannot fail of being wholly inoffensive, for his religion teacheth him in all things to do to others what he would wish, in like circumstances, they should do to him.

[Satenza]

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

 

 

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

[baalboy5]

I do my fair share about the enviroment, k?

[Ambassadar]

I am a Christian and I would support both the things you just quoted Satenza. That doesn't show that the founders were anti-Christian by any means.

 

 

 

It just means they recognized that when you make government mandated religions bad things happen. They put those things in to allow Quakers, Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, etc etc to all be free to worship as they so chose.

[Satenza]

But the whole point is that America was not founded on Christian ideals. That points towards it not being.

 

 

 

"Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion,"

 

 

 

There is much debate as to whether that means America must support Christianity but allow other practices, or whether American law should be completley seperate from religion including christianity.

[Tigra00]

I don't know why Christian's support the government. For one, your religion is against government support in general, and secondly, you're just puppets. There are so many of you, they exploit your feelings and beliefs so that you'll vote for them. If all that matters is that your beliefs are represented (by a liar or otherwise), then sorry, you're a tool. In a toolbox. In a toolshed. In the tool section of Wal-Mart. In Tool, Wyoming. You're a freakin' puppet. You're being exploited, and willingly at that. :D

 

 

 

Christians don't even know what their faith is about anymore. The most important thing to them is persecuting gays and making sure their religion dominates the world. It's really getting ridiculous. Gay marriage is a non-issue, yet you actually believe Republicans who tell you it's an issue, and that if you vote for them, they'll make sure it stays illegal? You're beyond salvation. Even Jesus would turn the other cheek to you guys.