Words Can Kill (Mods, Please Lock)

[123Yourgone]

 

BTW, Hell doesn't exist. When you're dead you're dead. The end. Nothing afterwards.

Don't make this a religious thread, moron. :roll:

 

 

 

Let people believe what they want, and you can stay the [bleep] out of their religion.

If you read the post he was replying to he was saying that the girl had been condemned to eternal hell, so how about attacking the original poster instead of the guy who was annoyed at his bs.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

No condolences for the family. Why? Because people are responsible for their own actions that were not directly caused by physical intervention of another person.

 

 

 

If Qeltar pushes me in front of the Shinkansen, it's HIS fault I die.

 

 

 

If Qeltar writes an article that annoys me, and I decide to commit suicide, that is MY problem and MY fault that I die. Not Qeltar's.

[meili]

This is just another example of journalistic sensationalism. Suicides are not caused by one thing. Even if it is true about the myspace incident, that was merely the triggering factor. In other words, yeah hate the parents if you like but they did *not* cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

 

Normal people do not kill themselves over some one harassing them on msn, myspace or even irl. The girl committed suicide because her life sucks and she wasn't able to handle it.Yes, her entire *life* including family, friends, health, looks, self-esteem, and everything.

 

 

 

I understand what you are saying about there being actual peopl behind the pixels but the suicide news is a bad way of illustrating it.

[snowager286]

People NEVER NEVER act the way they really should online. ( a very small group acts kindly but they are the exception not the rule.) A lot of you people need to realize that teenagers are at a very emotionally unstable moment of life, that is why suicide rates are so high among teenagers. Finally, Do onto others as you would have them do onto you, actually listen to that for once instead of just letting it pass through one ear and out another.....

[kill2pleasure]

Heres how i look at this whole situation

 

 

 

 

 

people are going to be cruel to you in real life, but as a person yourself

 

 

 

btu as a person you need to be kind to other, we cannot help it in life ppl can be straight terd nuggets,

 

 

 

be kind to people, respect people on the internet as well, they have real feeling too they aren't just pixels,

 

 

 

i am kind to everyone:D i am such a sensitive person lol :D

[doomy]

IMO the fact she almost couldn't do anything without supervision would have influenced her suicide as well...

 

 

 

She had no freedom pretty much, shouted at if she was on the computer when her parents wern't watching...

[Fey_Warrior]

We should always give thought to others and the effect our behaviour has on them.

 

 

 

If we don't then our own lack of foresight can always come back to haunt us, especially if later we discover our words were the reasons others were seriously harmed. There is never an excuse to flame or insult another person.

 

 

 

This can also occur among adults, even those who professionally should know how to cope with abuse. A state politician in an Australian committed suicide a year or so back. The politician whom I won't name had made a bad gaff at a party one evening that was caught on camera and subsequently splashed all over the media for several days. I'm sure none of the critics intended harm (beyond that person's political reputation), but that's why words we use are so important.

 

 

 

If we are going to be critical we need to be precise, and ensure our comments aren't unfairly aimed at the person, and instead address the issue or cause of our criticism. Thoughtless criticism of another person's vulnerabilities can have devastating results for all concerned.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Fey.

[nicrune007]

:shock:

[Fey_Warrior]

 

 

On another note I think you are taking that handbook thing a bit far... i have seen you mention it before. From what I understand whilst it is an official handbook, apart from providing a bit of information it is not actually under direct control of Jagex, as is made and produced under license. (I also think it predates the 13+ laws existence)

 

 

How am I "taking it a bit far"? By continuing to talk about it? I don't see why I shouldn't, when the situation persists. Jagex clearly isn't going to stop marketing to kids. If the few people like myself who try to bring the issue to light stop, then what?

 

 

 

As has already been mentioned several times, the book was written at Jagex's behest and with input from Jagex employees (including, if I am not mistaken, at least one of the Gowers.)

 

 

 

Jagex chose to have this book written at a level appropriate for pre-teens. Jagex chose to publish it with Scholastic, a company that specifically puts out kids books and sells them in schools.

 

 

 

Why?

 

 

 

Bobbington2, you're clearly an intelligent person, but I have to wonder if your status as a moderator has affected your ability to be impartial. (Frankly, I think that using players as moderators is not only a way that Jagex gets free "slave labor", but it's also an instrument of control.)

 

 

 

Be honest with yourself. Is it reasonable or appropriate for Jagex to have a RuneScape book that gets kids excited about playing the game, being marketed to 10 to 12 year olds?

 

 

 

Hi qeltar,

 

 

 

While I respect you for the fact you do care about other players, and do make honest attempts to foster good relations among players in the community, and for that you do deserve due acknowledgement.

 

 

 

However, what concerns me more about the issue of preteens in the game, is that some players of indeterminate age (since I don't go about asking other players their ages or attempting to verify if they can play the game or not) seem to feel it's their personal crusade to rid the game of both younger and older players. RuneScape has a huge range of players, though it may [bleep]e in one or two demographics, we should not be seeking to expel who sections of the player community. That is misguided, and in my view, more damaging than the presence of preteens (or other age groups for that matter) in our game for reasons I'll explain here. They were in the game before any restrictions were placed, and likely with some parents who may create an account to play with them, will continue to be a presence.

 

 

 

Sadly, though I cannot describe what's occurred in terms of specific incidents as I'm bound to confidentiality, there have been examples where players have harassed others in-game because they believe they're "too young to play". Frankly, the real age of other players is no one else's business but that of the responsible parent or guardian of that player. If some players feel they've been given carte blanche to go around harassing others then unfortunately highlighting the age issue has gotten out of hand, or had unintended negative consequences.

 

 

 

As far as player maturity is concerned, though it can be linked to age, it's also critically related to:

 

* A players ability to negotiate the rules of the environment,

 

* and utilise the features of that environment to ensure their safety,

 

* plus be respectful of the fact other players in that environment are real people too and not just avatars.

 

 

 

So some parents feel their children are mature and responsible enough to play with them in the game. As some parents have said to me their children are actually more mature and respectful players than those that might be far older.

 

 

 

I agree that no preteen should be creating an account. Nor should they play unsupervised (on their own) if their parents have created an account for them. I would also point out no one under 18 should be creating an account on RuneScape (let alone any other site) without informing and getting permission from their parents first. The Internet is simply not a safe place for kids or for any unwary person for that matter.

 

 

 

We should as mature RuneScape players be encouraging others to ensure they do not go about harassing others; I'm sure we both agree there is no excuse for that kind of bullying of other players. Now, I'm not saying you have in any way been responsible for that, but sadly this focus on younger players in the game has lead to incidents of unprovoked abuse on younger players. I know this as I've seen parents complain about this this occurring (again I am bound not to name players or give details).

 

 

 

While I am happy to advocate you and other concerned mature players pointing out to Jagex improvements, and posting suggestions for new features that may help parents encourage their children's responsible game-play, I am not for the sentiment that says we should be prohibiting the responsible adult or guardian from making these decisions for their children.

 

 

 

I think your original topic for this thread has raised an issue that should be a concern for all users of the Internet. The ability to remain anonymous is a condition and a feature of the game, as well as the Internet. The only people who should know who a player is and what they do is the parents and family and close friends of that person. As for everyone else, they should not be seeking to discover who that player or person is in real-life.

 

 

 

For example: I don't post my age and avoid posting personally identifiable information on the Internet (I keep my business persona separate entirely from my private life online). This is because Identity theft is a real problem for all adults and likely as big a problems as other threats to our children on the Net. There are serious issues of crime occurring now, and criminal groups which are infiltrating our online communities and online worlds.

 

 

 

So while I agree there are serious threat to players in our game from Cyber-bulling. There are also very serious issues that also involve law enforcement like Identity Theft, Money Launderers (recent reports indicate Gold Farming & Sales may be a serious breach of money regulations internationally as well as being implicated in Credit Card Theft and related issues of Identity Fraud), and serious issues of Personal Player Safety. The fact that children may play under parental supervision is an issue for parents though, though it remains important to raise issues that you feel will help Jagex further assist parents.

 

 

 

I simply cannot agree though that Jagex does not care about issues of Player Safety, specifically ones relating to Cyber-bulling. In fact volunteer moderators & Jagex very much seek to cooperate and listen to the players in the community regarding these very serious issues. If anyone believes they've witnessed such events they should report them to Jagex or to moderators immediately as all such concerns are among the highest order of emergencies. I suspect that Tip.It moderators would take any matters raised with them with similar gravity. Player safety is paramount in all our forums and our broader player community.

 

 

 

While I concede it's possible that some parents may be less than diligent than they should be, I think your highlighting this incident here shows even caring parents can be caught unawares. However sad this incident is, it's not an isolated one. Teenage suicide was an issue before the Internet, though the medium and rules surrounding teens interactions have changed, the core issues of lack of self-esteem and the many pressures modern teens face did exist before. At my high school I seem to recall announcements with disturbing regularity regarding unfortunate events did have to a number of our peers. This, of course, does not mean we should not address any issues we see or that we should do out utmost to stop any preventable harm before it occurs.

 

 

 

If there are important ways both the player community, it's volunteer moderators can help Jagex improve the protections it provides to all players, then by all means we need to give the that highest consideration possible.

 

 

 

It's important though not to alienate anyone in this process though, since gaining the cooperation of all groups and parties is essential if we aren't going to miss important opportunities for improvements that will still need to be made regardless who wins the arguments on any particular thread or in any single forum.

 

 

 

Thanks.

[Fingaz]

Lol, that girl needs to get hard...

 

Pretty stupid thing to do. =;

 

Agreed, who cares, 1 emo down. Stupid attention seekers like this do my head in, genuine people die for reasons they can't help e.g car crashes and this spoilt little [cabbage]e goes and dies because of myspace.

[qeltar]

No condolences for the family.

 

 

 

Agreed, who cares, 1 emo down.

 

 

 

All I have to say to these comments is that I am happy for the both of you. The only way anyone can have these views is if they are both young and lucky enough that they've never had to live with depression or other serious issues. I hope you remain care-free and ignorant enough to be this judgmental of others for as long as possible. Enjoy it while you can.

 

 

 

Because people are responsible for their own actions that were not directly caused by physical intervention of another person.

 

 

 

This is false both in terms of ethics and as a matter of law. I could give countless examples.

 

 

 

 

In other words, yeah hate the parents if you like but they did *not* cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Were it not for their actions, there is no doubt in my mind that the girl would be alive today. They did cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Normal people do not kill themselves over some one harassing them on msn, myspace or even irl.

 

 

The people who did this knew the girl and what her condition was. That makes what they did all the worse.

 

 

 

The larger point is that when someone bullies another on the Internet, you never know what the impact will be on the other person.

[qeltar]

Fey_Warrior, I must begin by noting that in all of the verbiage you wrote, not once did you answer the simple question I asked:

 

 

 

Why is Jagex marketing this game to pre-teens?

 

 

 

I get lots of excuse-making and obfuscation but never any legitimate answers. Especially from RSOF mods, which really calls into question their ability to analyze these issues fairly.

 

 

 

 

RuneScape has a huge range of players, though it may [bleep]e in one or two demographics, we should not be seeking to expel who sections of the player community. That is misguided, and in my view, more damaging than the presence of preteens (or other age groups for that matter) in our game for reasons I'll explain here. They were in the game before any restrictions were placed, and likely with some parents who may create an account to play with them, will continue to be a presence.

 

 

Jagex has created this environment by making rules that prohibit new account signups by pre-teens, while not taking any practical actions to stop it. They have also refused to clearly tell the community that pre-teens who had accounts before that rule have effectively been "grandfathered".

 

 

I would also point out no one under 18 should be creating an account on RuneScape (let alone any other site) without informing and getting permission from their parents first.

 

 

And *I* would point out that this is another area where Jagex pays lip service to the matter. If they really didn't want people under 18 registering without permission, they could implement appropriate systems. But this would cut down on their income and member totals, and with Jagex pretty much everything comes second to money.

 

 

I simply cannot agree though that Jagex does not care about issues of Player Safety, specifically ones relating to Cyber-bulling.

 

 

They care about player safety to a certain extent. Specifically, they care about it only so far as it doesn't impact their bottom line.

 

 

 

But they are NOT serious about it. If they were, there is SO much more that they could do.

 

 

 

I'm sure that they do address the really serious issues, but the rest they only pay lip service to, or make a token effort. They refuse to make any structural changes to their business model to improve online safety or to effectively block children from the game. And again, what's worse is that they happily target kids with ads and marketing campaigns intended to draw them in.

 

 

 

You should really stop spending so much time with Jagex apologetics and look at the issue more objectively.

[lord_british]

Lol, that girl needs to get hard...

 

Pretty stupid thing to do. =;

 

Agreed, who cares, 1 emo down. Stupid attention seekers like this do my head in, genuine people die for reasons they can't help e.g car crashes and this spoilt little [cabbage] goes and dies because of myspace.

 

 

 

Wrong on so many levels I can't be bothered enumerating them :wall:

 

 

 

Who Cares? We do (the people who realise the true implications of this story). It's obvious you don't. You only care for yourself. If your attitude towards others rubs off on those around you, who would you turn to when you need help? And if you did, what would you do when those people say to you "Haha!! emo noooob! go crawl away and die quietly. I don't care about you!" [obviously I 'm using the proper spellings whereas they would use numbers and symbols ;)] Attitudes like that are going to make you a very lonely adult when you finally reach adulthood (assuming you don't ever require emergency medical help for any reason beforehand ;))

 

 

 

IF she was "attention seeking", wouldn't she have made a big fuss of "Going to my room and kill myself! You don't love me! you obviously think they're right and the world will be better off without me!!"?

 

But instead she, if not calmly, quietly went to her room, and methodically took her own life.

 

 

 

Genuine people?? So she wasn't real? Her parents don't have to look at an empty chair at meal times? Her grave doesn't have to be attended to? Wait! What if you're not real too?! Does that mean we don't have to listen to you inane blatherings of "plastic-gangsta-isms"? Sure you can write a tough line, but I bet behind the psuedo-annonymity of the intarwebs, you've got feelings too, just like this girl, and everyone else in the world. Try to show a little compassion sometimes. You never know who's life you may change for the better ;)

 

 

 

"Die for reasons they can't help"? #-o :wall: Most car crashes are accidents...but some aren't. They're lumped into accidents even when it's alcohol related, or innatention due to changing the radio station, or making a phone call, or putting on make-up, or rubber-necking the accident on the other side of the road...those could be helped, but they won't be. It's human nature.

 

Most people killed aren't in the vehicle causing the accident, they're totally innocent of breaking rules of the road, yet find themselves in situations where people die. This girl wasn't. She was rather effectively seduced by ADULTS. "Groomed" is the current buzz-word. These people are old enough to know better, they knew she was vulnerable, and yet STILL exploited her for their own sick "fun".

 

Now, how is a 13year old girl, whether suffering from depression or not, supposed to help herself facing experience and knowledge more than twice her own age? Whilst being lied to?

 

 

 

I would respectfully submit, yer 'onours, that the only cabbage here, is you, and people with the same uncaring, unfeeling, repulsive attitudes like you and your fellow trolls.

 

 

 

Grow up, mature, lose the attitude, gain respect, and above all else, THINK.

[raylifes]

edit, posted on the wrong topic... :-s

[Aneron]

:-k

 

 

 

There is an astonishing lack of care for humanity on this thread.

[casthewiz]

Yeah, I read about Megan on Msn News... Its just vile when adults screw with kid's minds.

 

 

 

And a response to those who think that she deserved to die, or wasn't a genuine death....

 

 

 

A death is a death. Wheter it be a murder, accident, or a waste of life, its still a death. Don't say that she deserved it or that its a good thing.

 

 

 

:shame:

 

 

 

I also know what she went through, I was suicidal during part of my life and almost did it, luckily one of my friends talked me out of it, and it was due to real life bullying.

 

 

 

On a more positive note, I hope the parents sue the crap out of the other family.

[meili]

 

In other words, yeah hate the parents if you like but they did *not* cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Were it not for their actions, there is no doubt in my mind that the girl would be alive today. They did cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

 

Yes, I know. Your post more or less hinges on that.

 

 

 

It's sad that adults harrassed a teen. That is wrong and very ugly.

 

 

 

However, if I should tell a salesperson (irl) who is incompetent that he doesn't know what he is doing, is it my fault if he goes off and and hangs himself? No, he did that, not me. :-k

 

 

 

The girl had allegedly tried to commit suicide before and this is very likely as most, especially girls, do not die on their first suicide attempt. The parents already said Megan was suffering from depression. Her depression was the actual cause of the suicide. The word "fat" and "[bleep]" are heard everyday in school but people don't kill themselves everyday over it.

 

 

 

A friend of mine on Rs whom I have known for 6 years just scammed of 2 mil and a whip. If he posts here that I am a fat [bleep], am I going to kill myself? Nope! Nor would my "friend" be guilty of killing me if I did.

 

 

 

She was suffering from depression, which makes it seem as though problems are insurmountable. To her the problem (in this case the myspace incident) seems to make her life unbearable but actually it wasn't the incident, it was her mental illness that made it seem that way.

[casthewiz]

 

In other words, yeah hate the parents if you like but they did *not* cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Were it not for their actions, there is no doubt in my mind that the girl would be alive today. They did cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

 

Yes, I know. Your post more or less hinges on that.

 

 

 

It's sad that adults harrassed a teen. That is wrong and very ugly.

 

 

 

However, if I should tell a salesperson (irl) who is incompetent that he doesn't know what he is doing, is it my fault if he goes off and and hangs himself? No, he did that, not me. :-k

 

 

 

The girl had allegedly tried to commit suicide before and this is very likely as most, especially girls, do not die on their first suicide attempt. The parents already said Megan was suffering from depression. Her depression was the actual cause of the suicide. The word "fat" and "[bleep]" are heard everyday in school but people don't kill themselves everyday over it.

 

 

 

A friend of mine on Rs whom I have known for 6 years just scammed of 2 mil and a whip. If he posts here that I am a fat [bleep], am I going to kill myself? Nope! Nor would my "friend" be guilty of killing me if I did.

 

 

 

She was suffering from depression, which makes it seem as though problems are insurmountable. To her the problem (in this case the myspace incident) seems to make her life unbearable but actually it wasn't the incident, it was her mental illness that made it seem that way.

 

 

 

It is true that they are not the cause of her commiting suicide, however you do say that her depression was the cause of her suicide. Wouldn't the parents be part of the cause for the depression? :-k Just playing devil's advocate.

[Bobbington]

Fey_Warrior, I must begin by noting that in all of the verbiage you wrote, not once did you answer the simple question I asked:

 

 

 

Why is Jagex marketing this game to pre-teens?

 

 

 

I get lots of excuse-making and obfuscation but never any legitimate answers. Especially from RSOF mods, which really calls into question their ability to analyze these issues fairly.

 

 

 

 

RuneScape has a huge range of players, though it may [bleep]e in one or two demographics, we should not be seeking to expel who sections of the player community. That is misguided, and in my view, more damaging than the presence of preteens (or other age groups for that matter) in our game for reasons I'll explain here. They were in the game before any restrictions were placed, and likely with some parents who may create an account to play with them, will continue to be a presence.

 

 

Jagex has created this environment by making rules that prohibit new account signups by pre-teens, while not taking any practical actions to stop it. They have also refused to clearly tell the community that pre-teens who had accounts before that rule have effectively been "grandfathered".

 

 

I would also point out no one under 18 should be creating an account on RuneScape (let alone any other site) without informing and getting permission from their parents first.

 

 

And *I* would point out that this is another area where Jagex pays lip service to the matter. If they really didn't want people under 18 registering without permission, they could implement appropriate systems. But this would cut down on their income and member totals, and with Jagex pretty much everything comes second to money.

 

 

I simply cannot agree though that Jagex does not care about issues of Player Safety, specifically ones relating to Cyber-bulling.

 

 

They care about player safety to a certain extent. Specifically, they care about it only so far as it doesn't impact their bottom line.

 

 

 

But they are NOT serious about it. If they were, there is SO much more that they could do.

 

 

 

I'm sure that they do address the really serious issues, but the rest they only pay lip service to, or make a token effort. They refuse to make any structural changes to their business model to improve online safety or to effectively block children from the game. And again, what's worse is that they happily target kids with ads and marketing campaigns intended to draw them in.

 

 

 

You should really stop spending so much time with Jagex apologetics and look at the issue more objectively.

 

 

 

Why are they marketing at pre-teens?

 

 

 

Personally I don't feel they are, As a game Runescape is set up to work on lowend PC's and poor Internet speeds, as such most of the user base will be the younger end of the market and people who are new to the MMORPG world. this is reflected in the graphics style and computer requirements. As such I don't feel that it's preteens it's aimed at.... more the younger end of the user base of online gaming markets (admittedly they overlap). Now interms of story lines and content, I honestly believe that they are making what they are like to play (20-40 year olds) and tone the game primarily to their tastes. I base this opinion from talking to several members of the content team at some point or another.

 

 

 

I think allot of people who work in the gaming world do end up having a sense of humor/fun that could be read as young.

 

 

 

As for the book I agree with youit is not something they should have I seem to remember from talks at the time player found it that Paul, mod Mark, and one of the Mod James's all contributed to the information in the book and provided graphics. However the book is owned written and produced by a separate company, I can't find the original publishing date easily online but seem to remember it being before the law governing personal information from under 13's was introduced, as such at the time of it's was perfectly fine.

 

 

 

From a personal view point the 13+ law is too old and I would argue (some other time) along with many psychologists that there is no reason why younger children of the age of 8,9,10, or 11 are not capable of making adult decisions, although the law is the law and needs to be respected until changed... I don't know how much power Jagex will have over getting the book recalled however as they will be under license agreements with the author and published, as such it probably cannot be forced down for another 5 or 6 years. so it is very possible that it is out of their control.

 

 

 

I know that you have a book of your own (it's huge!) out there, and so hope that you know more about this subject than I do (currently), although any deals you may be in could well be totally different, I would suggest that is it Scholastic that you need to take up a complaint with on the subject of the book and not Jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

Getting back to this case study, it is truly saddening to see some of the terrible comments that this subject has brought, although to some degree I am glad they are there as it will show others how these insensitive people are in the community, and that this is a real issue.

 

 

 

I would hope that these people read the reaction that their comments have made and rethink their own position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From a personal point I know first hand that words can hurt, during my school years I was bullied my self, and it was a bad time. Although I never went anywhere near doing anything about it, like most victims "ending it all" was an option on the table.

 

 

 

It is obviously very bad that people think in this was, and I am sad that I once did, but it is definably not uncommon. Most people are just not able to solve the issues that are effecting them, I was lucky and managed to teach my self, and have passed on my help to others. but it is not there for most people.

 

 

 

I have no reason to believe that the bullies meant any personal harm, and where only doing it as it made them look good in front of their friends, but words do indeed hurt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back on topic again:

 

 

 

I am sadend that you still feel that Jagex are money centered, and yes my position of moderator has lead to my view points.... but not for the reasons you think. I personally am very critical of Jagex in some key areas and try to approach them sensibly but caring for the community is just not one of them. I have seen a side to Jagex that allot of players don't see, I see their personal side, and honestly...... they do care.

 

 

 

They are all part of the team, and they are all them selves gamers and know what they would expect as a customer.

 

 

 

Like Fey I ant discuss cases, but every time I have brought a situation to they sight they are very good at reacting to it. They will take any situation where it seems a player is in trouble and stay with it till they believe it is resolved.

 

 

 

I think whilst you are very good at spotting the bad aspects of Jagex, occasionally as you have not had a high level of contact with the company means in subjects like "do they care" you cant be in full control of the facts.

[meili]

Cas, I don't suffer from depression myself but basically its is a mental illness. It could be inherited because it can run in families. She was taking medication because it is like a physical/brain chemistry thing. That's why even people who are well off and aren't being abused in any way will sometimes kill themselves over what others would perceive as trivial things such as failing a subject in school.

[neonihilist]

Teenagers have problems, that's nothing new.

 

The pen is mightier than the sword because having mastery of the pen can give you control of thousands or millions of swords (actually guns and bombs now). The keyboard is mightier than the pen because its faster to get your message to more people.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

No condolences for the family.

 

 

 

Agreed, who cares, 1 emo down.

 

 

 

All I have to say to these comments is that I am happy for the both of you. The only way anyone can have these views is if they are both young and lucky enough that they've never had to live with depression or other serious issues. I hope you remain care-free and ignorant enough to be this judgmental of others for as long as possible. Enjoy it while you can.

 

 

 

Because people are responsible for their own actions that were not directly caused by physical intervention of another person.

 

 

 

This is false both in terms of ethics and as a matter of law. I could give countless examples.

 

 

 

 

In other words, yeah hate the parents if you like but they did *not* cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Were it not for their actions, there is no doubt in my mind that the girl would be alive today. They did cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Normal people do not kill themselves over some one harassing them on msn, myspace or even irl.

 

 

The people who did this knew the girl and what her condition was. That makes what they did all the worse.

 

 

 

The larger point is that when someone bullies another on the Internet, you never know what the impact will be on the other person.

 

 

 

Qeltar, you upset me by arguing back. I'm going to kill myself now. (No I'm not going to kill myself, because I am intelligent)

 

 

 

Read that, and think to yourself how that sounds.

 

 

 

"This is false both in terms of ethics and as a matter of law. I could give countless examples."

 

 

 

In terms of ethics that's true. In terms of law, it is not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Qeltar, you're a smart guy and you post a lot of interesting things... your website is pretty nice as well. But can you please not post threads like this anymore? They're too controversial and can lead to stupid arguments and comments, as well as flaming.

[qeltar]

:-k

 

 

 

There is an astonishing lack of care for humanity on this thread.

 

 

 

Sad, but at this point no longer astonishing.. at least for me. :(

 

 

 

 

However, if I should tell a salesperson (irl) who is incompetent that he doesn't know what he is doing, is it my fault if he goes off and and hangs himself? No, he did that, not me. :-k

 

 

That analogy is invalid.

 

 

 

There is a simple and important legal doctrine called the "reasonable person standard". It simply asks, what would a reasonable person do, or expect, under a particular set of circumstances?

 

 

 

Would a reasonable person expect telling a salesperson (who is a stranger) that they are bad at their job to cause him to commit suicide? No.

 

 

 

Would a reasonable person expect that befriending a troubled 13-year-old girl who had a history of depression and then betraying her and humiliating her in public might cause her to commit suicide? In my opinion, yes.

 

 

 

 

Her depression was the actual cause of the suicide.

 

 

Whether she had tried before is disputed. I have not seen a reliable report on that.

 

 

 

Regardless, suicides do not generally come out of the blue. They are in response to a specific trigger. She had been depressed for years; this event pushed her over the line.

 

 

A friend of mine on Rs whom I have known for 6 years just scammed of 2 mil and a whip. If he posts here that I am a fat [bleep], am I going to kill myself? Nope! Nor would my "friend" be guilty of killing me if I did.

 

 

Again, this is a completely invalid analogy.

 

 

 

And don't make the mistake of assuming that how you'd react to something is how someone else would. I also bet that you aren't a 13-year-old girl, and that DOES matter.

[qeltar]

 

Why are they marketing at pre-teens?

 

 

 

Personally I don't feel they are

 

 

Well you agreed that the book is wrong, and the book is direct marketing at pre-teens, so how can you say that they aren't doing that?

 

 

As a game Runescape is set up to work on lowend PC's and poor Internet speeds, as such most of the user base will be the younger end of the market and people who are new to the MMORPG world. this is reflected in the graphics style and computer requirements.

 

 

Whether intended or not, these are some of the characteristics that make the game popular among pre-teens. Jagex COULD do something about this, but that would cut into their expansion plans and profits. So they don't.

 

 

 

It's really that simple.

 

 

Now interms of story lines and content, I honestly believe that they are making what they are like to play (20-40 year olds) and tone the game primarily to their tastes. I base this opinion from talking to several members of the content team at some point or another.

 

 

Talk is cheap. Especially when it comes from a corporation defending its self-interest. I don't care what they say -- I care what they do. And what they do is create a game that appeals to kids, and then market it to kids while insisting that they don't want kids to play.

 

 

 

This tack was BS when the tobacco companies did it, and it's just as much BS with online gaming.

 

 

 

How long has it been since you went through Tutorial Island? Or talked to some of the NPCs in Lumbridge, or went through the Stronghold of Security? I cannot think of a SINGLE PERSON I know who has looked at this game's content and thought that it was oriented towards 20 to 40 year olds.

 

 

 

Just as one of many examples, somewhere in the game you are told (paraphrasing), "don't share your password with anyone, net even your best friend!" Do you think companies that believe they are talking to 20-40 year olds write things like that?

 

 

 

You are not being honest with yourself.

 

 

As for the book I agree with youit is not something they should have

 

 

Then again I must ask why you deny that they are marketing to pre-teens?

 

 

However the book is owned written and produced by a separate company, I can't find the original publishing date easily online but seem to remember it being before the law governing personal information from under 13's was introduced, as such at the time of it's was perfectly fine.

 

 

So, you disagree with the concept of the book but are still trying to bend over backwards to defend Jagex. :roll:

 

 

 

The book has a copyright of "Jagex Limited". They own the book. They chose the author and they chose to go through a kids' publisher. They are responsible for how this book is being marketed and sold.

 

 

 

And it was published earlier this year and has a 2006 copyright date, both of which are after the "only over 13" rule was put into place.

 

 

I don't know how much power Jagex will have over getting the book recalled however as they will be under license agreements with the author and published, as such it probably cannot be forced down for another 5 or 6 years. so it is very possible that it is out of their control.

 

 

Have they tried? Of course not.

 

 

 

Yet here you are, again, trying to do everything you can to defend them. Why are you and some others so desperate to do this? Is being a forum moderator that important to you?

 

 

I am sadend that you still feel that Jagex are money centered, and yes my position of moderator has lead to my view points.... but not for the reasons you think. I personally am very critical of Jagex in some key areas and try to approach them sensibly but caring for the community is just not one of them. I have seen a side to Jagex that allot of players don't see, I see their personal side, and honestly...... they do care.

 

 

I consider Jagex money-centered for the very simple reason that they rake in countless millions of dollars in profits but refuse to take any steps to fix issues like underaged players that might cut into those profits.

 

 

 

Talk about "how much we care" is cheap. Action matters.

 

 

 

What actions has Jagex taken to stop underaged players from joining this game? The answer is: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

 

 

So, feel free to go on making excuses. I will continue trying to get Jagex to put its money where its mouth is. (Or rather, where the mouths of people like yourselves are, since they can't be bothered to even discuss this issue.)

[calum12]

That story is incredibly moving. I agree, words can deal incredible damage, and it being a gamemakes no difference.