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DK Luring: who's to blame


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#1
quitthegame
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First, let's make clear that DK luring is not against RS rules, the only luring the RS rules prohibit is "luring players into the wilderness under false pretences"



Second, this thread is not about the morality of DK luring. That's not a useful debate because the morality of DK luring depends on the choice of moral system used as a yardstick, and in practice such a debate always turns into a display of emotion rather than reason. I personally loathe DK luring, but anyone who admits to doing so on forums clearly wants to be spited, so it's a bit useless to do so and isn't a debate.



Ok, now to business. Let's start by examining the usual targets of blame.



Target #1: The "evil" DK lurer. There have been a plethora of reasons for blaming the DK lurer over the years. Sadly, they all fall under falsely accusing them of breaking RS rules, or emotional arguments about morality, so they don't get us anywhere. If the DK lurer makes money and finds it personally morally acceptable, he will do it unless he has a better alternative. In a certain sense you can't blame someone for that, in another sense you can.



Target #2: The "noob" DK'er. Traditionally, DK lurers blame their victims, saying they could have avoided the death if they were more skilled. This latter statement may be true, but the argument as a whole is an equivocation of responsibility with blame. The DKer who could have avoided the death is responsible for his actions, but that doesn't mean that we "blame" him for dying. Blame implies not just responsibility, but responsibility for an act which is wrong.



Well, there's the problem in a nutshell. If blame requires an act which is wrong, and DK luring isn't against the rules and we don't want to debate morals with DK lurers who don't share our moral system, than why do we want to blame someone for DK luring? The answer is simple-- DK luring is bad gameplay. It's unrealistic, it decreases the total enjoyment derived from the game, and it shouldn't be possible to do at all. The lack of realism is definitely the main reason DK luring is so offensive, though. Consider how it starts, by attracting a lvl 303 monster to attack you. In any reasonable analogy to the real world, as long as no on else attacks that monster, it should keep attacking you until one of you dies. Because DK'ing is a poorly designed activity, it's possible to get it to attack other players who do nothing to it, without teleporting out yourself.



Imagine if you could go into barrows, find someone safespotting dharok in the tunnels, and go just give him a push to the side to get him out of the safespot so that he would kill the unsuspecting player he was fighting. Would people bemoan the evil and immoral "dharok-pushers", or would they rightfully blame jagex for this unwanted update? This example is notable in that pushing dharok to the side actually makes sense in terms of realism, although it would negatively impact gameplay. DK luring is a much worse aspect of RS than dharok pushing would be, as it's both unrealistic and bad for gameplay.



My challenge for those who believe DK luring is a good aspect of RS: what other encounters would benefit from being make "lurable", and why?



My challenge for those who agree with me: How should the mechanics of the DK fight be changed to make DK luring impossible? Do you think other lurable monsters will be released in the future or do you think jagex has learned their lesson about encounter design?

#2
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First of all. I'm 100% Against DK luring. I make most of my money from DK'ing myself and have experienced a lot of lurers.



But now on to the point of the topic. I do not think there are any flaws in the mechanics of the DK fight. Yes, Prime hits everyone within 1 square of the player he is actually attacking and Supreme withing 3 squares (I think) but that's a normal thing that makes it harder to fight them. And all high level bosses have that actually, the kalphite queen has multi target attacks, the godwars bosses have it. It's something that makes it harder to fight them and is therefor im my opinion not a flaw in the design, though it is what makes luring possible.

But you have to think of something else, who are the ones getting lured? Right, solo or duo mages, Jagex NEVER designed DKs to be possible to just mage Rex solo. It was meant that teams killed all kings. And not suprisingly, it's nearly imposible to get lured while fighting the 3 kings with a team. Of course, there is nothing wrong with just maging (and I have done a lot of solo trips and absolutely hate it when I meet a lurer then) but the fact that we use the DK's differently then they were designed for makes the luring possible. Actually, the lurers are doing the same thing as the ones that are lured, 'abusing' the DK's. The difference though is that DK mages 'abuse' Rex for his drops and that lurers 'abuse' the DK's for the magers stuff. And that's what I think is wrong, trying to 'pk' players at places where that shouldn't be happening. But Jagex never intended it to be possible. And it isn't possible when the DK's are fought in the way Jagex designed them.



If other lurable monsters will be released? I don't know, seeing godwars Jagex might have indeed learned from the DK's. They made it impossible to use it in any different way then designed (Killing the bosses while being under attack of all 4 monsters in the lair) and thus there is also no possibility in luring there.
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#3
Owned_Nex
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I too think luring should stop, but it is individules who lure. But...pushing into Dh isint the same. In barrows, ur rpayer is drained. You would need to drink a dose, then pop up prayer. You also don't know when its comming. A lurer, you can see him on minimap/"screen" and pop up prayer immeditly. You can also just tele.



Anyways, the only way to stop luring would be to make it not hit nearby targets, but that would make it so much eaiser for teams. I guess to compromise the king would switch targets or soemthing, so it is still dangerous for teams....

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#4
quitthegame
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Actually, the lurers are doing the same thing as the ones that are lured, 'abusing' the DK's. The difference though is that DK mages 'abuse' Rex for his drops and that lurers 'abuse' the DK's for the magers stuff. And that's what I think is wrong, trying to 'pk' players at places where that shouldn't be happening. But Jagex never intended it to be possible. And it isn't possible when the DK's are fought in the way Jagex designed them.




It certainly sounds as if we both agree that the DK fight is flawed, although you think that the biggest flaw is the ability to solo mage them. You hear a lot of people talk about luring whole teams of DKers on the forums, although I certainly see why it's much harder than luring a solo mage.



I've done a large amount of luring in WoW on outdoor bosses, when some other guild would lure mobs into us on our attempt then we would retaliate-- and that was quite often. But that was generally pretty fun, because WoW's death penalty is so minor, it was a pretty social thing. RS's more painful death penalty, has a lot of good effects in terms of making decisions more meaningful and important, and rewarding planning over persistence, has the negative effect of making attempts to take advantage holes in encounter design feel more like exploits and less like harmless fun. If RS had less of a death penalty, then perhaps teams would lure each other as part of a fight for the spot, instead of luring being a vicious attempt to steal items from others. I'm not saying RS's death penalty should be lessened, just that I think the harsh death penalty mandates encounters be carefully designed to prevent such unrealistic and annoying behavior--and if the DK's encounter can't be changed to prevent luring, I would wish that it be made into a minigame to prevent such interference.

#5
Owned_Nex
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Actually, the lurers are doing the same thing as the ones that are lured, 'abusing' the DK's. The difference though is that DK mages 'abuse' Rex for his drops and that lurers 'abuse' the DK's for the magers stuff. And that's what I think is wrong, trying to 'pk' players at places where that shouldn't be happening. But Jagex never intended it to be possible. And it isn't possible when the DK's are fought in the way Jagex designed them.




It certainly sounds as if we both agree that the DK fight is flawed, although you think that the biggest flaw is the ability to solo mage them. You hear a lot of people talk about luring whole teams of DKers on the forums, although I certainly see why it's much harder than luring a solo mage.



I've done a large amount of luring in WoW on outdoor bosses, when some other guild would lure mobs into us on our attempt then we would retaliate-- and that was quite often. But that was generally pretty fun, because WoW's death penalty is so minor, it was a pretty social thing. RS's more painful death penalty, has a lot of good effects in terms of making decisions more meaningful and important, and rewarding planning over persistence, has the negative effect of making attempts to take advantage holes in encounter design feel more like exploits and less like harmless fun. If RS had less of a death penalty, then perhaps teams would lure each other as part of a fight for the spot, instead of luring being a vicious attempt to steal items from others. I'm not saying RS's death penalty should be lessened, just that I think the harsh death penalty mandates encounters be carefully designed to prevent such unrealistic and annoying behavior--and if the DK's encounter can't be changed to prevent luring, I would wish that it be made into a minigame to prevent such interference.




hehe, ganking is really fun. Pulling is just a trick to prevent pulling of adds.



But it is a good point. in World of Warcraft, upon dying, your items damaged(similar to barrows armour/weps), but you silply have to run to your corpse and ressurect. No items lost, so no biggie.

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#6
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hehe, ganking is really fun. Pulling is just a trick to prevent pulling of adds.



But it is a good point. in World of Warcraft, upon dying, your items damaged(similar to barrows armour/weps), but you silply have to run to your corpse and ressurect. No items lost, so no biggie.




Why do we always have to involve WoW into RS?



Ontopic, I also think DK luring should stop.

It is the same like killing another thus it's unfair.

#7
SirHartlar
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No offence but more often than not it is the magers fault, you have to be really unlucky/stupid to die from a lure. For me it is just an annoyance that cuts trips short as opposed to something that will cost me cash in items lost upon death.

#8
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hehe, ganking is really fun. Pulling is just a trick to prevent pulling of adds.



But it is a good point. in World of Warcraft, upon dying, your items damaged(similar to barrows armour/weps), but you silply have to run to your corpse and ressurect. No items lost, so no biggie.




Why do we always have to involve WoW into RS?



Ontopic, I also think DK luring should stop.

It is the same like killing another thus it's unfair.




Please read the other people posts.

Thanks...



Anyways ontopic:



It is pretty hard to get lured, most people who get lured are AFKING, or simply careess of not potting their prayers up. It dosn't take long to put up magic prayer, or simply teleport. Either 1 click or spellbook,youcan get out WAY before it hits. Rex has always been "the weakest ink" due to the fact he can easily be safespotted.The only reason theres not someone camping rex is because of spinalops. This is where people get careless, their pryer is drawined, they dont pot up, and heal off them to stay longer.

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#9
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the dkers fault for being [developmentally delayed]ed enough to die

#10
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the dkers fault for being [developmentally delayed] enough to die


Says the dk lurer.



Dk luring is wrong imo. It's for people without enough skill to do the Dking them selves.

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#11
Owned_Nex
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the dkers fault for being [developmentally delayed] enough to die




Since youve obviously never actully DKed, you dont know how annoying it is even if you dont die. It basically forces you to tele(u get p pots which will run out)

or go up, and spend alot of supplies owning the supreme and prime again

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#12
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I just sent a query about DK luring and the response said that yes, DK luring is reportable (unfortunately I cannot show you a picture).



In my opinion I find DK lurers' to be the scum of Runescape. I understand that runescape need a "risk" in some aspects in the game, but if I want a risk I'd rather that Jagex have an intention for doing so instead of having some [insert age] running around trying to kill me because hes "bored". Honestly, if that person finds enjoyment out of causing someone to have pain or in this case disrupt them from playing, they should move on to other games made purely of fighting or shooting.



My idea to help prevent DK luring is to maybe have a warning be brought up when someone other than a person (in your friends list\chat) enters the lair? Something along the lines of letting us know that you are in trouble.



Though I could write many paragraphs sharing my opinion and past experiences, I would rather not make my view so emotional.

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#13
Owned_Nex
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I just sent a query about DK luring and the response said that yes, DK luring is reportable (unfortunately I cannot show you a picture).



In my opinion I find DK lurers' to be the scum of Runescape. I understand that runescape need a "risk" in some aspects in the game, but if I want a risk I'd rather that Jagex have an intention for doing so instead of having some [insert age] running around trying to kill me because hes "bored". Honestly, if that person finds enjoyment out of causing someone to have pain or in this case disrupt them from playing, they should move on to other games made purely of fighting or shooting.



My idea to help prevent DK luring is to maybe have a warning be brought up when someone other than a person (in your friends list\chat) enters the lair? Something along the lines of letting us know that you are in trouble.



Though I could write many paragraphs sharing my opinion and past experiences, I would rather not make my view so emotional.




+1 To that!



I much rather get killed by a monster then get a noob to lure him to me

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#14
quitthegame
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I just sent a query about DK luring and the response said that yes, DK luring is reportable (unfortunately I cannot show you a picture).




That's certainly an interesting fact, and I'm not doubting it, but queries to Jagex are notorious for getting wrong answers. I personally have seen many queries to Jagex about DK luring, most of them said luring is illegal and then referenced rule 2, which specifically mentions "luring players into the wilderness". The obvious implication is that customer support workers getting paid 5 quid an hour don't know that DK's aren't in the wilderness. *shrugs*



The fact of the matter is that the rules don't prohibit DK luring explicitly, and I've never seen a respected Jmod post in the forum about it being illegal, so I'm going to continue believing it is legal until I get better evidence than some minimum-wage flunkies' attempt to obscure the obvious. I've certainly never heard of anyone ever getting a blackmark for it, not that people don't get spurious blackmarks but that's at least relevant information to know.

#15
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the dkers fault for being [developmentally delayed] enough to die


Says the dk lurer.



Dk luring is wrong imo. It's for people without enough skill to do the Dking them selves.




So.. what exactly is 'DK luring'? i know it has something to do with dag kings..

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#16
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As long as you're paying attention and know what you're doing, dk luring is easy to avoid.

#17
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So.. what exactly is 'DK luring'? i know it has something to do with dag kings..




Simply put, bringing one monster who hits high to an unsuspecting person killing another king. This results in a death or disruption of the trip which means teleporting, or a hilarious moment because the lurer has range prayer on.
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#18
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#19
Owned_Nex
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So.. what exactly is 'DK luring'? i know it has something to do with dag kings..




Simply put, bringing one monster who hits high to an unsuspecting person killing another king. This results in a death or disruption of the trip which means teleporting, or a hilarious moment because the lurer has range prayer on.




To add to that:



The Prime(mager) hits in a 3x3 square around the "target"(like a multi-target ancinet spell)



The lurer pulls him to the Rex Camper, causing the Prime to hit him. Now the camper has to put up magic prayer ebfore s/he dies. Or teleport. This causes the Prime to wonder into the area of the camper, usually the Supreme too. This forces soloers to teleport, and teams to go up the ladder and restrt or teleport

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#20
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Ok, I might just be a noobish F2Per but this Dk luring thin sounds completely cheap and annoying. If I were ever fighting any hard monster, I wouldn't want some guy just brining another monster to start att me. That would so annoy me!!
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