Is God real post your thoughts!

[BlueLancer]

You keep arguing mundane aspects of life that don't even matter. There is only one thing that never dies, and that is ideas. Not power; not money; ideas.

 

 

 

That's quite false, ideas have died and been destroyed very quickly in history if a ruler or a wealthy class decided those ideas work against their own interests.

 

 

 

After all, an idea only exists in an amount of people who know about it. If the Wright brothers were assassinated while inventing the airplane, nobody would have anything to continue their work from. If I right now knew a scheme to stop world hunger 100% foolproof, that idea only exists in my mind. If I die tomorrow, the idea dies.

 

 

 

Or, if Albert Einstein had died before publishing his magnificent theories, facts, ideas about the world... They would've gone with him to the grave.

[insane]

Ok, my turn to ask a question: Why is it that you only see life as meaningful if there is an afterlife and/or a supernatural being who dictates what that meaning is? You don't see the possibility of seeing meaning in living a life of charity, empathy, compassion, friendship, family, art and love? You don't see that we can form meaning ourselves independent of belief in something higher?

 

 

 

Because God is a source of absolute truth and meaning. Nothing in your atheistic viewpoint can give an absolute purpose to things.

 

 

 

Of course. That you can envisage and have faith in something as a source of absolute truth and meaning is uncompelling to me, but IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m happy for you nonetheless. Furthermore, I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t need absolutes to see meaning or purpose in my life. As Satenza has said, meaning comes to each of us individually. Whether you think itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s absolute is irrelevant to the fact that itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s you who garners faith in this concept for your own personal meaning, including the notion of it being absolute making it more meaningful in your eyes.

 

 

 

Meaning "comes" to you? How does meaning "come" to you? No, you "come" to your meaning. You choose it. Making it completely pointless because your "purpose" and "meaning" in life are as fleeting as your hunger or emotion. As soon as something is subjective, it becomes temporary, because opinions and feelings are fickle things. I find an encompassing purpose that is wont to change at any time "uncompelling".

 

 

 

If a bunch of art critics (or indeed anyone and everyone) badmouth a 2 year old girl's picture drawn for her father, does that make it unmeaningful or purposeless? Of course not. ItÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s incredibly meaningful for the father irrespective of any 'absolute' meaning perceived and dictated by others. In the same way, I can form my own meaning and purpose that is incredibly profound to me irrespective of yours or any other theist's views on what constitutes meaning or purpose.

 

 

 

Exactly! The two year old's picture is meaningful because the creator of the picture gives it the meaning. Just like the creator of the universe would give it meaning, if there's no creator, there's no one to give it meaning! That is EXACTLY my point. In you assigning meaning to the universe, you are taking the position of the art critics trying to assign meaning to something they did not create.

[BlueLancer]

If someone is told that his purpose

 

 

 

No one tells you your life purpose, you decide it yourself. Usually some people choose it from the obstacles and growth they've endured.

 

 

 

For example, the father who grew up in a broken home who is battling to raise his 3 kids, eat, work, sleep and die. His life purpose was to raise his kids better than his own father raised him.

Who decided that you decide your own purpose?

 

 

 

That's a western-country illusion... People can only determine their own purposes and interests when they live freely.

 

 

 

I'm quite sure the few million children, boys and girls aged under 10 who had their hands chopped off, forced to kill their parents and become a child soldier or prostitute, didn't choose their purpose in life: To serve another greedy human and die as if your life means nothing.

 

 

 

If you live in a free, democratic country where no war, famine or serious diseases exist, you can possibly determine your profession, your passions, your family size, what you eat, what you do in your spare time... Pretty much anything.

 

 

 

But go to a totalitarian country like North Korea, and ask the citizens do they decide their own purpose and life fate? No, the government assigns them to jobs, they may be forced to harvest fields in masses even if they are highly educated doctors and politicians (let alone poor workers), their entire life from the cradle to the grave is dictated by the people in power.

 

 

 

Can that average North Korean think he has a free will and life when his every step is being carefully watched and everything in his life that matters, is decided by someone else?

[Scorchedrose]

Oh joy, a religious topic, now this always gets fun. Like the at my last family function where my pop-pop (Christian) and uncle (atheist), both of whom get closed minded on the subject, got into a religious debate and my brother and I had to play mediators. But anyways...

 

 

 

I feel that there isn't a single correct religion, nor do I feel there is a wrong religion. Do I believe there's a god? Yes, I personally feel that there is some sort of god or gods. Do I think that they care if you believe in them, no. I see god as more of the start of things and doesn't really act beyond that. Kind of like when you start a computer program to process data or something. You start the program, let the computer do it's thing, then when it's done you analyze the data. So, I basically feel that this god creates our soul, sends us on our way, and once we finish our time here

 

we then return to god and are analyzed on what we have done in our time here. After that, we either continue the pattern, move on to a greater plane of existence or even cease to exist all together. Who's to know for sure? What would the fun be if we did know?

 

 

 

So then you might ask, what is the purpose of prayer to some god then if they don't interact with you? I think that through prayer (whatever form) you don't necessarily get any kind of assistance from god, but rather use the energies that exist inside you to influence things. For instance, if you were to pray for someone who was sick and in the hospital. Who knows if your praying for them actually did anything to help their situation? In a case like that it's probably 99.9% that it was the doctors that helped them. There are always those strange cases that make you wonder sometimes though. Yet, in smaller things like praying for a persons luck to be good because they've been going through some hard times and then finding out that after you prayed for them their luck seemed to turn around. I feel that there's a good chance that you some how influenced that, or it could still be just chance. For those atheists out there that don't partake in any kind of ritualized pray, my answer to that is simple. I'm sure if you hear that a loved one has been going through a bit of bad luck, I'm to assume that you wish that things could go better for them and just through the thought of wishing things could be better for them you have done just the same as someone who would perform a ritualized prayer for that person. I feel that each person does the same thing, just in a fashion that suits them best.

 

 

 

On the matter of our purpose and what is this god's purpose for us, perhaps we have no purpose but rather we shape our own purpose through our own personalities and through what happens to us through out our life.

 

edit after seeing above post: As far as places where you really don't have any kind of free will to create your own purpose because someone has chosen your purpose for you. In this case those in power have made it their purpose to decide what the purpose of others will be. To rid them of their free will. So then their purpose is to have the purpose they are given. Then this is where I shall go back to the whole god analyzing what we have done here thing. The actions of the people who had given others their purpose may come back to this existence as someone who may now have to live in a life where their purpose is given to them and the person who was given their purpose may come back and live a life where they can choose their own purpose. Or they simply had no purpose but to be given a purpose, then die, the end.

 

 

 

Wow, this came out a little longer than I thought it would, but if anyone has any questions or comments on this I'll try to get back as soon as possible. Which probably won't be till Monday since I have work in the morning and my work Christmas party to go to afterwards.

[warri0r45]

Ok, my turn to ask a question: Why is it that you only see life as meaningful if there is an afterlife and/or a supernatural being who dictates what that meaning is? You don't see the possibility of seeing meaning in living a life of charity, empathy, compassion, friendship, family, art and love? You don't see that we can form meaning ourselves independent of belief in something higher?

 

 

 

Because God is a source of absolute truth and meaning. Nothing in your atheistic viewpoint can give an absolute purpose to things.

 

 

 

Of course. That you can envisage and have faith in something as a source of absolute truth and meaning is uncompelling to me, but IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m happy for you nonetheless. Furthermore, I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t need absolutes to see meaning or purpose in my life. As Satenza has said, meaning comes to each of us individually. Whether you think itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s absolute is irrelevant to the fact that itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s you who garners faith in this concept for your own personal meaning, including the notion of it being absolute making it more meaningful in your eyes.

 

 

 

(1) Meaning "comes" to you? How does meaning "come" to you? No, you "come" to your meaning. You choose it. Making it completely pointless because your "purpose" and "meaning" in life are as fleeting as your hunger or emotion. As soon as something is subjective, it becomes temporary, because opinions and feelings are fickle things. I find an encompassing purpose that is wont to change at any time "uncompelling".

 

 

 

If a bunch of art critics (or indeed anyone and everyone) badmouth a 2 year old girl's picture drawn for her father, does that make it unmeaningful or purposeless? Of course not. ItÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s incredibly meaningful for the father irrespective of any 'absolute' meaning perceived and dictated by others. In the same way, I can form my own meaning and purpose that is incredibly profound to me irrespective of yours or any other theist's views on what constitutes meaning or purpose.

 

 

 

(2) Exactly! The two year old's picture is meaningful because the creator of the picture gives it the meaning. Just like the creator of the universe would give it meaning, if there's no creator, there's no one to give it meaning! That is EXACTLY my point. In you assigning meaning to the universe, you are taking the position of the art critics trying to assign meaning to something they did not create.

 

(1) And you don't choose your faith? You choose to believe in a universal meaning. Your belief is not objective no matter how much you'd like to think it is or sidestep the fact that it is in actuality a belief you have and a way of making your life have meaning in your own personal way. On the uncompelling point, we're at a difference of opinion. My purpose may very well be changable, but I can choose it for myself and I don't see this as pointless like you do. I'm not going to repeat that I see your view as uncompelling because we'll just end at the same difference of opinion.

 

 

 

(2) Good thing I don't assign meaning to the universe then.

[warri0r45]

(1)You fail to easy what higher purpose is. Purpose beyond death. That is why Atheism is so simple, its only concerned with the here and now. (2) There is no ultimate purpose to life, there is no meaning to our existence.

 

No, there is no universal purpose to our lives and existence- each one is unique. The fact that we all don't have the purpose does not make it impossible for each of us to have individual purposes.

 

(3)You keep arguing mundane aspects of life that don't even matter. (4)There is only one thing that never dies, and that is ideas. Not power; not money; ideas.

 

 

 

(5)I don't understand why you keep arguing the mundane. Atheist believe there is no higher purpose. Face it. It's not my fault your faith is so boring.

 

Well, I'm a boring guy. Sue me.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

(1) And you fail to see that not everyone believes as you do.

 

 

 

(2) There may or may not be an 'ultimate' purpose for life, yet there is personal purpose and meaning. You yourself have such personal purpose and meaning with your very much personal faith in god and the afterlife. That you think it is universal is part of your personal view to see purpose and meaning in the way you do. There is no way you can demonstrably show anyone that what you believe is true, therefore it is at best your personal view, is it not? I reiterate - I can recognise that this is how you personally see yourself as having purpose. Can you recognise the same of me and my view?

 

 

 

(3) That my personal purposes and meanings that I place on my life are mundane or 'don't even matter' is your personal opinion. Again, I simply disagree.

 

 

 

(4) Let me guess, you think an atheists purpose or meaning can only be centered on power or money? Wrong, try again mate.

 

 

 

(5) You don't understand because you fail to see not everyone sees things through your world view. Atheism at it's core is not a belief that there is no higher purpose - it's a lack of belief in god. This still opens the door for the possibility of 'higher' purpose, even if it comes from a Buddhist's Nirvana. Also, atheism is not a faith.

 

 

 

Just to add and/or reiterate, Plectrum fails to realise that those mundane things might not be so mundane to others - those things that he feels 'don't even matter' may mean the world to someone in the here and now. Again, some theist's god-centered view equates god with purpose and eveything else with 'second best' or 'mundane'. That's wholly your view and you need to recognise not everyone sees things this way. Atheism dosen't posit there is no purpose or meaning to our existance - atheists are free to fill thier lives with purpose and meaning wherever they see fit.

 

 

 

The language you use such as 'higher/ultimate purpose' and 'boring/mundane' to justify your view as the only one or best one is typical. I put it to you that my ultimate puropse is to fill this life with purpose and drive to be the best person I can be and this is anything but boring or mundane to me. There's no right or wrong in this argument. You just can't stand that an atheist can have purpose and meaning without your god can you?

 

 

 

Again, Plectrum fails to answer my questions. To reiterate - why do you want this 'higher' purpose? For what reasons?

[insane]

(1) And you don't choose your faith? You choose to believe in a universal meaning. Your belief is not objective no matter how much you'd like to think it is or sidestep the fact that it is in actuality a belief you have and a way of making your life have meaning in your own personal way. On the uncompelling point, we're at a difference of opinion. My purpose may very well be changable, but I can choose it for myself and I don't see this as pointless like you do. I'm not going to repeat that I see your view as uncompelling because we'll just end at the same difference of opinion.

 

 

 

 

I'm just saying, if God exists, then universal meaning and purpose exists. I didn't say that I would be 100% sure that I know what it is.

 

 

 

 

 

(2) Good thing I don't assign meaning to the universe then.

 

 

 

What kind of a response is this? Fine; you, in assigning meaning to your life, are just like the art critics who are trying to assign meaning to something they did not create. You knew exactly what I was getting at (I hope).

[Rebdragon]

I'm just saying, if God exists, then universal meaning and purpose exists. I didn't say that I would be 100% sure that I know what it is.

 

And we're just saying regardless of the existence of universal meaning or the existence of a God, individual meaning can exist. No contradictions of opinion here :P .

[warri0r45]

(1) And you don't choose your faith? You choose to believe in a universal meaning. Your belief is not objective no matter how much you'd like to think it is or sidestep the fact that it is in actuality a belief you have and a way of making your life have meaning in your own personal way. On the uncompelling point, we're at a difference of opinion. My purpose may very well be changable, but I can choose it for myself and I don't see this as pointless like you do. I'm not going to repeat that I see your view as uncompelling because we'll just end at the same difference of opinion.

 

 

 

 

(1) I'm just saying, if God exists, then universal meaning and purpose exists. I didn't say that I would be 100% sure that I know what it is.

 

 

 

 

 

(2) Good thing I don't assign meaning to the universe then.

 

 

 

What kind of a response is this? Fine; you, in assigning meaning to your life, are just like the art critics who are trying to assign meaning to something they did not create. You knew exactly what I was getting at (I hope).

 

 

 

(1) Rebdragon adressed this.

 

 

 

(2) How am I like the art critics? They assign some authoratitive meaning on the girls drawing yet to the father it means so much more - it has a personal meaning to him and it came from something his daughter gave him. So there exists the overarching, 'universal' meaning and the personal meaning. Why, exactly, can't I provide meaning for myself?

 

 

 

Edit: presuming your argument refers to something you previously posted about not being able to assign meaning to something more universal/authoritative than you, how would I be more universal or authoritative than myself? Besides, in the example you gave I'm sure the university student could say what the university course means to him personally. This dosen't make what meaning he assigns to it true in a universal sense but it dosen't take away from the fact he assigned his own meaning to it personally.

 

 

 

Likewise in assigning my own meaning and purpose to my life (neglecting that I can't possibly see how I'm more universal or authorative than myself), I'm in no way expecting you to swollow that it's 'universally true', yet merely that I can and do impose my own meaning and purpose in my life. Whether in your opinion this isn't ideal is irrelevant. I've already said I revel in the fact I can form my own purpose and meaning in my life and in my opinion I like it this way.

[wildernessfreelancer]

How can we live without meaning/purpose in life?

 

If you ask a person who believes in God, he/she would say that if you live without purpose or meaning in life, then it's pointless to live in the first place.

 

And that God wouldn't waste His time creating "intelligent life forms" when it will ultimately ridicule His existence based on their "observable evidence".

 

 

 

A person who does not believe in God would say that the meaning of life is to do memorable good deeds on Earth so that you'll die proud feeling that you've "accomplished something."

 

 

 

When in reality you'll just rot in the soil and people will eventually forget about you, like you've never existed. So what happens after you die? If you think that nothing comes after death, then you would savor every moment living on earth. Now tell me honestly, is this what people want? Live once and die forever?

 

 

 

True, God can't be proven by science or logic. When I say "God is eternal" and people scoffed saying that nothing is eternal, because it is out of their logic. Therefore, I don't blame people if they don't believe in God, because it is out of their logic.

 

 

 

The only way to believe in God then is with faith.

 

 

 

In fact, people who believe in God could clearly brush off any argument about God not existing by saying:

 

 

 

"As long as there's a possibility of God's existence, which can neither be proved nor disproved by science, I can continue to believe in Him."

 

 

 

If anyone tries to convince God doesn't exist because it is out of logic, then that person will probably win. That is, of course, if he/she can shatter their faith in Him.

 

 

 

Not all people want to come to terms that we live and die for nothing, because then life would be a waste of time to them. What if we don't live, don't exist? Does that make a difference? If it doesn't, then people will start killing themselves because living on earth is a waste of time. Why not just die already?

[IGoddessI]

You don't get brownie points for writing cool.

[wildernessfreelancer]

Yeah, and you don't get gingerbread-man points for being cynical/sarcastic.

[IGoddessI]

Plectrum, you are quick to ask questions and yet much quicker to avoid everyone elses. Do you not like people focussing their attention towards you?

 

 

 

Which could or could have not been previously "selected" or "foreseen" by God, in order to influence other people

 

 

 

What a great little theory Meol. However, my original purpose was to say that religion doesn't necessarily HAVE to be present in a persons life in order to be considered significant and meaningful. And who says I don't agree with you? I don't think I've ever told anyone which religion I choose to follow, nor should anyone really need to know.

 

 

 

Let's not get side tracked here though, as interesting as your concept is.

 

 

 

Yeah, and you don't get gingerbread-man points for being cynical/sarcastic.

 

 

 

:lol: I lol'd. It's nice to see we have the same sense of humour even though we don't have the same beliefs :wink:

[wildernessfreelancer]

:lol: I lol'd. It's nice to see we have the same sense of humour even though we don't have the same beliefs :wink:

 

 

 

Why, thank you. I really appreciate that. :

[IGoddessI]

It's not my fault your faith is so boring.

 

 

 

I'm fine with the fact that you think my faith is boring, I think yours is boring too. At least we agree on something, right? :wink:

 

 

 

Although a less than informative reply, the only thing I'm disappointed in is your peculiar need to push blame away from yourself in your posts. I don't suppose you rid of your insecurities outside this forum in a similar manner? SayÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâæ within some kind of higher force that promises to take it all away from you?

 

 

 

This post doesn't need a reply, cop it on the chin. I'll leave that and my positive thoughts with you, aside from our differences.

[insane]

And we're just saying regardless of the existence of universal meaning or the existence of a God, individual meaning can exist. No contradictions of opinion here.

 

 

 

Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that I think universal meaning is better :P.

 

 

 

(because it isn't subject to change at will).

 

 

 

Edit: presuming your argument refers to something you previously posted about not being able to assign meaning to something more universal/authoritative than you, how would I be more universal or authoritative than myself?

 

 

 

Lol, nice one. I guess my response would be that a creator of all life on earth would be even more authoritative on your life than you, given the God I believe in.

 

 

 

Likewise in assigning my own meaning and purpose to my life (neglecting that I can't possibly see how I'm more universal or authorative than myself), I'm in no way expecting you to swollow that it's 'universally true', yet merely that I can and do impose my own meaning and purpose in my life. Whether in your opinion this isn't ideal is irrelevant. I've already said I revel in the fact I can form my own purpose and meaning in my life and in my opinion I like it this way.

 

 

 

But why do you revel in that fact, other than the freedom of it? Your ideals and standards for your life and wont to change at your every beck and call! You can devote your life to feeding the hungry, but as soon as that first fat paycheck comes in, you can just change the purpose of your life to accumulating as many material goods as possible. Don't you think that's kind of lame? :P

 

 

 

Oh and thanks for the good response. And sorry about overreacting in my prev. post, it was 1:30am and I had a lot of adrenaline pumping yet from a hockey game I just played :P.

[Plectrum]

You keep arguing mundane aspects of life that don't even matter. There is only one thing that never dies, and that is ideas. Not power; not money; ideas.

 

 

 

(1) That's quite false, ideas have died and been destroyed very quickly in history if a ruler or a wealthy class decided those ideas work against their own interests.

 

 

 

(2)After all, an idea only exists in an amount of people who know about it. If the Wright brothers were assassinated while inventing the airplane, nobody would have anything to continue their work from. If I right now knew a scheme to stop world hunger 100% foolproof, that idea only exists in my mind. If I die tomorrow, the idea dies.

 

 

 

(3)Or, if Albert Einstein had died before publishing his magnificent theories, facts, ideas about the world... They would've gone with him to the grave.

 

 

 

(1) Actually, its quite true. The Roman empire had power, it had money, it had ideas. Which one of those still exists? The Nazi's had power, they had money, they had ideas. Which one of those still exists? William Wilburforce (the guy who wrote the bill to abolish slavery in England.) had power, had money, and had ideas. Which one of those is still around?

 

 

 

(2) Of course, anything dies if it isn't passed on. Ideas that are passed on can never die because they are being passed on.

 

 

 

(3) Refer back to 2.

 

 

 

@:IGoddessI

 

 

 

Sorry I missed your question. I looked back and couldn't find it through all of the posts. What was it?

[Plectrum]

 

 

 

(1) Let me guess, you think an atheists purpose or meaning can only be centered on power or money? Wrong, try again mate.

 

 

 

(2) You don't understand because you fail to see not everyone sees things through your world view. Atheism at it's core is not a belief that there is no higher purpose - it's a lack of belief in god. This still opens the door for the possibility of 'higher' purpose, even if it comes from a Buddhist's Nirvana. Also, atheism is not a faith.

 

 

 

 

 

(3) You just can't stand that an atheist can have purpose and meaning without your god can you?

 

 

 

(4) Again, Plectrum fails to answer my questions. To reiterate - why do you want this 'higher' purpose? For what reasons?

 

 

 

(1) You keep using examples of materialistic things being meaningful and somehow important. Since you and I don't have the same beliefs I can't argue things that are divine to prove my point. So I used a materialistic example, ideas, to prove my point. I never said that Atheist don't have ideas, Atheism is an idea.

 

 

 

(2) You fail to understand there are more details to a belief than the definition of the word. Christian, the word, means "Christ Ones", it doesn't even mention God. You can't argue an entire set of beliefs on one word. Atheism is the base of what Atheists believe. Its not the only thing. Atheists don't believe in universal purpose. Why is it hard to come to grips with this?

 

 

 

(3) No, I just don't understand why you don't understand your own beliefs. But if you do understand them I don't understand why you can't explain them well.

 

 

 

(4) I don't want this higher purpose. People who believe in a God accept that there is a higher purpose.

[gonpost]

 

 

 

(1) Let me guess, you think an atheists purpose or meaning can only be centered on power or money? Wrong, try again mate.

 

 

 

(2) You don't understand because you fail to see not everyone sees things through your world view. Atheism at it's core is not a belief that there is no higher purpose - it's a lack of belief in god. This still opens the door for the possibility of 'higher' purpose, even if it comes from a Buddhist's Nirvana. Also, atheism is not a faith.

 

 

 

 

 

(3) You just can't stand that an atheist can have purpose and meaning without your god can you?

 

 

 

(4) Again, Plectrum fails to answer my questions. To reiterate - why do you want this 'higher' purpose? For what reasons?

 

 

 

(1) You keep using examples of materialistic things being meaningful and somehow important. Since you and I don't have the same beliefs I can't argue things that are divine to prove my point. So I used a materialistic example, ideas, to prove my point. I never said that Atheist don't have ideas, Atheism is an idea.

 

 

 

(2) You fail to understand there are more details to a belief than the definition of the word. Christian, the word, means "Christ Ones", it doesn't even mention God. You can't argue an entire set of beliefs on one word. Atheism is the base of what Atheists believe. Its not the only thing. Atheists don't believe in universal purpose. Why is it hard to come to grips with this?

 

 

 

(3) No, I just don't understand why you don't understand your own beliefs. But if you do understand them I don't understand why you can't explain them well.

 

 

 

(4) I don't want this higher purpose. People who believe in a God accept that there is a higher purpose.

 

 

 

1. You seem to like "ideas". An athiest could very well live for the spread of an idea (think of the forms of economy and governments throughout history). That's not material.

 

 

 

2. Athiesm doesn't form any base to any beliefs whatsoever, other than the base that there is no god. One athiest could have entirely different convictions than another, and their only common conviction would be that there is no god.

 

 

 

I'd agree when you say athiests don't believe in a universal purpose. A PARTICULAR athiest may believe that there is a universal purpose, but athiests as a whole do not believe in a higher purpose together. After all, athiesm isn't a system with followers. It's merely a disbelief in god...nothing more.

 

 

 

The word "christian" does mean "follower of christ" (or "christ's ones" is close enough as you said). However, it does imply god because according to christianity, christ is god. I might be wrong in assuming this for you, though, because I don't know what type of christian you are.

 

 

 

3. He does explain them well. Quite frankly, you two are thinking from fundamentally different sides. Hence you are having trouble understanding each other...the difficulty in communication is as much his problem as it is yours. Using definitives like "you fail to understand" is not a good way to debate. You should say "I think..." or "Perhaps", because you two clearly aren't on common ground. Your fundamental viewpoints are different, so it's hard to understand each other. Be friendly! :)

 

 

 

4. Yes, people who believe in god do accept that there is a "higher purpose". They believe it.

 

 

 

Athiests simply say that your "higher purpose" probably doesn't exist (ie god).

 

 

 

It's not a matter of athiests coming into the light and accepting that there is a higher purpose of or related to god. They simply see no compelling reason to believe in that purpose, and so they choose their own.

[Plectrum]

 

 

 

1. You seem to like "ideas". An athiest could very well live for the spread of an idea (think of the forms of economy and governments throughout history). That's not material.

 

 

 

2. Athiesm doesn't form any base to any beliefs whatsoever, other than the base that there is no god. One athiest could have entirely different convictions than another, and their only common conviction would be that there is no god.

 

 

 

I'd agree when you say athiests don't believe in a universal purpose. A PARTICULAR athiest may believe that there is a universal purpose, but athiests as a whole do not believe in a higher purpose together. After all, athiesm isn't a system with followers. It's merely a disbelief in god...nothing more.

 

 

 

The word "christian" does mean "follower of christ" (or "christ's ones" is close enough as you said). However, it does imply god because according to christianity, christ is god. I might be wrong in assuming this for you, though, because I don't know what type of christian you are.

 

 

 

3. He does explain them well. Quite frankly, you two are thinking from fundamentally different sides. Hence you are having trouble understanding each other...the difficulty in communication is as much his problem as it is yours. Using definitives like "you fail to understand" is not a good way to debate. You should say "I think..." or "Perhaps", because you two clearly aren't on common ground. Your fundamental viewpoints are different, so it's hard to understand each other. Be friendly! :)

 

 

 

4. Yes, people who believe in god do accept that there is a "higher purpose". They believe it.

 

 

 

Athiests simply say that your "higher purpose" probably doesn't exist (ie god).

 

 

 

It's not a matter of athiests coming into the light and accepting that there is a higher purpose of or related to god. They simply see no compelling reason to believe in that purpose, and so they choose their own.

 

 

 

(1) I'm not sure what you are talking about. When I am referring to ideas I am referring to the beliefs of both the belief in God and the disbelief in God. They are both ideas. Since ideas can be materialistic I am trying to find common ground between Atheism and Theism. By saying that you don't believe in a higher purpose you are saying that some ideas can't be true. Which is true in some cases. But looking at the evidence of spirituality in human psyche (the feeling of there being something greater than our selves, theism), these ideas of God are real ideas. Therefore making the divine conceivable.

 

 

 

Though this doesn't prove the divine, it does make common ground between Atheism and Theism.

 

 

 

(2) In this statement you said that Atheism doesn't have any base of beliefs other than disbelief. Meaning that there is no belief in purpose or meaning. We are here for nothing. Which brings me back to my main point. If we weren't meant to have purpose why would we discover this? It would be like discovering that there is darkness in a world without light. Darkness would be a word with out meaning.

 

 

 

(3) I agree that is why I brought up the point about ideas.

 

 

 

(4) You contradicted yourself. You said that Atheist don't have a base of beliefs beside the disbelief in God. Then you went on to say that Atheist don't believe in higher purpose. This is why I brought up point three. A lot of people on this forum are not explaining there side very well. Mainly regarding the argument that Atheism does not have a base of beliefs.

[warri0r45]

And we're just saying regardless of the existence of universal meaning or the existence of a God, individual meaning can exist. No contradictions of opinion here.

 

 

 

Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that I think universal meaning is better :P.

 

 

 

(because it isn't subject to change at will).

 

 

 

Edit: presuming your argument refers to something you previously posted about not being able to assign meaning to something more universal/authoritative than you, how would I be more universal or authoritative than myself?

 

 

 

Lol, nice one. I guess my response would be that a creator of all life on earth would be even more authoritative on your life than you, given the God I believe in.

 

 

 

Likewise in assigning my own meaning and purpose to my life (neglecting that I can't possibly see how I'm more universal or authorative than myself), I'm in no way expecting you to swollow that it's 'universally true', yet merely that I can and do impose my own meaning and purpose in my life. Whether in your opinion this isn't ideal is irrelevant. I've already said I revel in the fact I can form my own purpose and meaning in my life and in my opinion I like it this way.

 

 

 

But why do you revel in that fact, other than the freedom of it? Your ideals and standards for your life and wont to change at your every beck and call! You can devote your life to feeding the hungry, but as soon as that first fat paycheck comes in, you can just change the purpose of your life to accumulating as many material goods as possible. Don't you think that's kind of lame? :P

 

 

 

Oh and thanks for the good response. And sorry about overreacting in my prev. post, it was 1:30am and I had a lot of adrenaline pumping yet from a hockey game I just played :P.

 

 

 

Ahk looks like it's all good. :)

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm not debating that my personal views on my own meaning/purpose are universal or anything out there like that, I'm just saying that I can have them. As I say, your opinion that a universal meaning is better than one I can form for myself (and that as a result is very meaningful and specific to my drive in life) is just one I don't share. I can accept that we see this point differently. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) Let me guess, you think an atheists purpose or meaning can only be centered on power or money? Wrong, try again mate.

 

 

 

(2) You don't understand because you fail to see not everyone sees things through your world view. Atheism at it's core is not a belief that there is no higher purpose - it's a lack of belief in god. This still opens the door for the possibility of 'higher' purpose, even if it comes from a Buddhist's Nirvana. Also, atheism is not a faith.

 

 

 

 

 

(3) You just can't stand that an atheist can have purpose and meaning without your god can you?

 

 

 

(4) Again, Plectrum fails to answer my questions. To reiterate - why do you want this 'higher' purpose? For what reasons?

 

 

 

(1) You keep using examples of materialistic things being meaningful and somehow important. Since you and I don't have the same beliefs I can't argue things that are divine to prove my point. So I used a materialistic example, ideas, to prove my point. I never said that Atheist don't have ideas, Atheism is an idea.

 

 

 

(2) You fail to understand there are more details to a belief than the definition of the word. Christian, the word, means "Christ Ones", it doesn't even mention God. You can't argue an entire set of beliefs on one word. Atheism is the base of what Atheists believe. Its not the only thing. Atheists don't believe in universal purpose. Why is it hard to come to grips with this?

 

 

 

(3) No, I just don't understand why you don't understand your own beliefs. But if you do understand them I don't understand why you can't explain them well.

 

 

 

(4) I don't want this higher purpose. People who believe in a God accept that there is a higher purpose.

 

 

 

(1) I've listed some things that are meaningful to me twice in this thread. Not even one of them I can think of was materialistic. I'm not going to bother looking back to get the exact list right, you can do that yourself if you care to actually see what I see as meaningful to me in my life.

 

 

 

(2) Christianity involves more than a lack of belief in one notion. Atheism is a lack of belief in god and anything else isn't atheism. Atheists can add in thier own views to form their worldview. But I think I've stressed this point enough. Yes, atheists most likely won't believe in a universal or divine purpose. My Buddhism example was a possible way to demonstrate the exception to the rule.

 

 

 

Of course, all this is totally secondary to the fact that atheists can and do form their own personal meaning and purposes in their lives.

 

 

 

(3) So we atheists can have a meaning or purpose without your god? You totally brushed past the point. I tried my best to explain my points. If you're genuine in your complaint then show me something (as in quote it) which you can not understand. Your overarching and ambiguous complaint isn't moving me.

 

 

 

(4) And what is it that you like about having this higher purpose? Actually don't worry. To be honest I'm getting tired of trying to rehash a dead point that went nowhere in the first place.

[gonpost]

(2) In this statement you said that Atheism doesn't have any base of beliefs other than disbelief. Meaning that there is no belief in purpose or meaning. We are here for nothing.

 

 

 

Not quite. The first sentence you said should be continued to "beliefs other than disbelief in a god". Your second sentence is not entirely true. There can still be purpose and meaning without a god.

 

 

 

You went on to say "we are here for nothing", as the logical conclusion of your previous two sentences. I would like to add in that that is nihilism, and nihilism is not the logical conclusion of athiesm. I can understand why you would reject nihilism, because it truly offers nothing for humanity (other than a case of depression :)).

 

 

 

If you had said "we are here for no inherent purpose", that would probably lean towards existentialism...they believe that we humans must create our own purpose in life.

 

 

 

Both a thiest and an athiest could be an existentialist. The former believing that god left humanity on his own in the universe to find its own purpose or meaning for existing, and the latter believing that humanity is simply here (no reason necessarily required, although he/she may or may not believe in one), and must find his own purpose in life.

 

 

 

If we weren't meant to have purpose why would we discover this? It would be like discovering that there is darkness in a world without light. Darkness would be a word with out meaning.

 

 

 

We've *thought* of many things, plectrum. Just because we have conceived of something does not necessarily require that that something exists.

 

 

 

Also, you said "if were weren't meant to have purpose". How could you know for certain humanity was even meant to have an inherent purpose? Meant to have a purpose by who, god? An athiest would beg to differ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(4) You contradicted yourself. You said that Atheist don't have a base of beliefs beside the disbelief in God. Then you went on to say that Atheist don't believe in higher purpose. This is why I brought up point three. A lot of people on this forum are not explaining there side very well. Mainly regarding the argument that Atheism does not have a base of beliefs.

 

 

 

Careful, plectrum.

 

 

 

"You contradicted yourself. You said that Atheist don't have a base of beliefs beside the disbelief in God. "

 

 

 

Absolutely true.

 

 

 

"Then you went on to say that Atheist don't believe in higher purpose."

 

 

 

Some might. Buddhism is technically athiestic in that there is no god. However, they believe in a higher purpose.

 

 

 

Many athiests, however, do not believe in a "higher" purpose after life.

 

 

 

Others may hold hope that there is something after death, but say that they do not know what that something is.

[Plectrum]

 

"You contradicted yourself. You said that Atheist don't have a base of beliefs beside the disbelief in God. "

 

 

 

Absolutely true.

 

 

 

 

I rest my case.

 

 

 

Do you have anything to say about my other two points?

[Satenza]

What do you mean you rest your case? Why did you take two points out of context and think you have explained away his points? What game are you playing.

[gonpost]

 

"You contradicted yourself. You said that Atheist don't have a base of beliefs beside the disbelief in God. "

 

 

 

Absolutely true.

 

 

 

 

I rest my case.

 

 

 

Do you have anything to say about my other two points?

 

 

 

Plectrum, I was trying to be nice.

 

 

 

You've just come off as a complete [wagon]. You took something WAY out of context. The "absolutely true' was OBVIOUSLY referring to the second sentence. I added in the first sentence so that I wouldn't be leaving your words out.

 

 

 

I left out the other two points because you basically agreed with me, which shows progress.

 

 

 

Don't you have anything to say about my last post other than that smart [wagon] remark?

 

 

 

You just lost all your credibility pulling that maneuver. I'd be glad to talk to you again once you've grown up a little (seriously). But for now, there's no reasoning with you. Until then, good luck in life to you.