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The only problem for this is that you guys want a logical, error-proof explanation of God, as if He's some sort of computer program or something you see in the sky. However, the entire concept of God is based on faith, which it seems you have no concept of. Logic and faith are two different camps in this case, and near completely unable to be combined.

 

The problem is that you are trying to bring faith to a logical argument. If I have faith there is no god, who's faith is the superior faith? You're free to suppose your own ideas with a lack of logical/rational basis about unexplained phenomena, but to hold them up to be as good or superior to scientific and rational arguments disingenuous and just wrong.

"The only way to avoid packaging the water would be to deliver it to people's homes and places of business through some sort of amazingly intricate and complex series of reservoirs, pumping stations, pipes . . . hey, wait a second.."

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I personally don't dismiss the idea of a Supreme Being (God), but I do have my doubts. I live life as if one does not exist, but there's still something in my head that says 'What if..' so I do worry about the concepts of after life and so forth due to this. I generally believe that when we die, we die, but with a God, that may not be so, so it would be a comforting idea to believe in.

 

 

 

I am a scientificly influenced person though, and since most of the world can be explained through science, it begs the question as to what a God actually did for the world. It's just hard for me to gasp the concept oh a being with science explaining most 'miracles' of God.

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The only problem for this is that you guys want a logical, error-proof explanation of God, as if He's some sort of computer program or something you see in the sky. However, the entire concept of God is based on faith, which it seems you have no concept of. Logic and faith are two different camps in this case, and near completely unable to be combined.

 

The problem is that you are trying to bring faith to a logical argument. If I have faith there is no god, who's faith is the superior faith? You're free to suppose your own ideas with a lack of logical/rational basis about unexplained phenomena, but to hold them up to be as good or superior to scientific and rational arguments disingenuous and just wrong.

 

 

 

Pretty well said =D> Look at my last 5 post on this tread, i keep asking for proof and not "faith" but i'm not getting any proof :?

 

 

 

But look at this if you want to [cabbage] the bible:

 

http://beta.vreel.net/watch_8366.html

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why the [bleep] did he make cancor and aids, why the [bleep] did he get the roof to fall down on a church and kill alot of people. if "god" is real, he would't want to destroy what he made.

 

 

 

As an Atheist, I would avoid making nthose kind of arguments.

 

These kind of weak arguments which question the nature of God will only lead to a form of 'God works in mysterious ways' or some weak possible reason for his actions.

 

Questioning the nature of God gives the religous the upper hand because they are able to invent a theoretical reason (or use a previously invented reason) which cannot be disputed because further reasons, especially self-enforcing (cyclic) reason can be used to 'back up' their point and it'll make them feel awfully smug.

 

 

 

Also questioning the nature of God can accept the possiblity that he exists.

 

 

 

Basically tread carefully when asking those questions it can lead you into awkward situations where you ask such a question and the religous can make an answer of his choice up. They will always have an (invented) answer. It doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

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why the [bleep] did he make cancor and aids, why the [bleep] did he get the roof to fall down on a church and kill alot of people. if "god" is real, he would't want to destroy what he made.

 

 

 

As an Atheist, I would avoid making nthose kind of arguments.

 

These kind of weak arguments which question the nature of God will only lead to a form of 'God works in mysterious ways' or some weak possible reason for his actions.

 

Questioning the nature of God gives the religous the upper hand because they are able to invent a theoretical reason (or use a previously invented reason) which cannot be disputed because further reasons, especially self-enforcing (cyclic) reason can be used to 'back up' their point and it'll make them feel awfully smug.

 

 

 

Also questioning the nature of God can accept the possiblity that he exists.

 

 

 

Basically tread carefully when asking those questions it can lead you into awkward situations where you ask such a question and the religous can make an answer of his choice up. They will always have an (invented) answer. It doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

 

 

 

well if thats there best counter arguement, i can laugh at there ignorance :lol: and my question still stand, and it's a good arguement for that god don't exist or is "good". if you look at my post on this page, i am getting better and better soon i will become god almighty! muhahaha. so evi... i mean good!

My private chat is always ON.

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6 years. 1 dragon CS drop and some barrows, bad luck?

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why the [bleep] did he make cancor and aids, why the [bleep] did he get the roof to fall down on a church and kill alot of people. if "god" is real, he would't want to destroy what he made.

 

 

 

As an Atheist, I would avoid making nthose kind of arguments.

 

These kind of weak arguments which question the nature of God will only lead to a form of 'God works in mysterious ways' or some weak possible reason for his actions.

 

Questioning the nature of God gives the religous the upper hand because they are able to invent a theoretical reason (or use a previously invented reason) which cannot be disputed because further reasons, especially self-enforcing (cyclic) reason can be used to 'back up' their point and it'll make them feel awfully smug.

 

 

 

Also questioning the nature of God can accept the possiblity that he exists.

 

 

 

Basically tread carefully when asking those questions it can lead you into awkward situations where you ask such a question and the religous can make an answer of his choice up. They will always have an (invented) answer. It doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

 

 

 

well if thats there best counter arguement, i can laugh at there ignorance :lol: and my question still stand, and it's a good arguement for that god don't exist or is "good". if you look at my post on this page, i am getting better and better soon i will become god almighty! muhahaha. so evi... i mean good!

 

 

 

Their "ignorance"? You mean what they choose to believe?

 

 

 

Looking down on the beliefs of others simply because they aren't yours is "ignorance", no matter what your, or the other persons faith, is. This is a debate, not a flamefest, so it'd be right of you to treat it so, before you make atheists look even worse. :|

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As an Atheist, I would avoid making nthose kind of arguments.

 

These kind of weak arguments which question the nature of God will only lead to a form of 'God works in mysterious ways' or some weak possible reason for his actions.

 

Questioning the nature of God gives the religous the upper hand because they are able to invent a theoretical reason (or use a previously invented reason) which cannot be disputed because further reasons, especially self-enforcing (cyclic) reason can be used to 'back up' their point and it'll make them feel awfully smug.

 

 

 

Also questioning the nature of God can accept the possiblity that he exists.

 

 

 

Basically tread carefully when asking those questions it can lead you into awkward situations where you ask such a question and the religous can make an answer of his choice up. They will always have an (invented) answer. It doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

 

 

 

well if thats there best counter arguement, i can laugh at there ignorance :lol: and my question still stand, and it's a good arguement for that god don't exist or is "good". if you look at my post on this page, i am getting better and better soon i will become god almighty! muhahaha. so evi... i mean good!

 

 

 

Their "ignorance"? You mean what they choose to believe?

 

 

 

Looking down on the beliefs of others simply because they aren't yours is "ignorance", no matter what your, or the other persons faith, is. This is a debate, not a flamefest, so it'd be right of you to treat it so, before you make atheists look even worse. :|

 

 

 

i will laugh a people who use the "god works in mysteries ways" arguement in all debates and dont contributes with new infomation or facts. i am not making atheists looking worse. as i am not an atheists, i never said i was. don't make asumpsions, that will make you look worse ;) and i am not looking down on any religion, as i got over 10 muslims friends and my family is christian. also i am not flaming anyone, i am debating, but so far they have yet to show me any "facts". show me facts or stop talking -.-

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The only problem for this is that you guys want a logical, error-proof explanation of God, as if He's some sort of computer program or something you see in the sky. However, the entire concept of God is based on faith, which it seems you have no concept of. Logic and faith are two different camps in this case, and near completely unable to be combined.

 

The problem is that you are trying to bring faith to a logical argument. If I have faith there is no god, who's faith is the superior faith? You're free to suppose your own ideas with a lack of logical/rational basis about unexplained phenomena, but to hold them up to be as good or superior to scientific and rational arguments disingenuous and just wrong.

 

It's just as much of a problem to bring logic to an argument about faith. Quite the Catch-22, eh? But I'm not one to challenge faith. I'm bringing it up, as the people who're "debating" with me (using that word loosely) don't seem to understand faith at all.

 

 

 

You can't have a scientific argument against God. Nobody can provide evidence against it, according to the general consensus of what evidence is in this thread (which, in my point of view, is impossible. A fact is something indisputable, but anything is disputable).

 

 

 

That video won't load for me, x1992x. All the same, I'm not debating with so-called "experts". I'm debating with you folks. From the description, I'm sure the video will be biased and, frankly, just an arrogant video full of crap.

 

 

 

Having friends doesn't make you any less biased or arrogant. The Muslim faith and tradition is far different from Christianity. I've tried to read the Koran (hard to find an accurate translation, I hardly know any Arabic), and from what I can translate, it and the New Testament are the exact same yet far different, if you catch my drift.

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The only problem for this is that you guys want a logical, error-proof explanation of God, as if He's some sort of computer program or something you see in the sky. However, the entire concept of God is based on faith, which it seems you have no concept of. Logic and faith are two different camps in this case, and near completely unable to be combined.

 

The problem is that you are trying to bring faith to a logical argument. If I have faith there is no god, who's faith is the superior faith? You're free to suppose your own ideas with a lack of logical/rational basis about unexplained phenomena, but to hold them up to be as good or superior to scientific and rational arguments disingenuous and just wrong.

 

It's just as much of a problem to bring logic to an argument about faith. Quite the Catch-22, eh? But I'm not one to challenge faith. I'm bringing it up, as the people who're "debating" with me (using that word loosely) don't seem to understand faith at all.

 

 

 

You can't have a scientific argument against God. Nobody can provide evidence against it, according to the general consensus of what evidence is in this thread (which, in my point of view, is impossible. A fact is something indisputable, but anything is disputable).

 

 

 

That video won't load for me, x1992x. All the same, I'm not debating with so-called "experts". I'm debating with you folks. From the description, I'm sure the video will be biased and, frankly, just an arrogant video full of crap.

 

 

 

Having friends doesn't make you any less biased or arrogant. The Muslim faith and tradition is far different from Christianity. I've tried to read the Koran (hard to find an accurate translation, I hardly know any Arabic), and from what I can translate, it and the New Testament are the exact same yet far different, if you catch my drift.

 

 

 

oh' o just got called arrogant oh' snap. oh' well i gues the arguements is being used up after some time. you should serios watch the video, just get divx then you can watch it as i am right now :lol: i am not arrogant i am just stating facts, you still havent given me any proof -.- :wall: and by knowing muslims i was stating i knew other religions and are not looking down just debating. and getting a translated version is easy. and you can have an scientific arguement against god. just wait till we get the big bang theory 100% proved(its about 97% proven atm).

 

 

 

 

 

show me a freaking poof of god existence

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well if thats there best counter arguement, i can laugh at there ignorance :lol: and my question still stand, and it's a good arguement for that god don't exist or is "good". if you look at my post on this page, i am getting better and better soon i will become god almighty! muhahaha. so evi... i mean good!

 

 

 

Their "ignorance"? You mean what they choose to believe?

 

 

 

Looking down on the beliefs of others simply because they aren't yours is "ignorance", no matter what your, or the other persons faith, is. This is a debate, not a flamefest, so it'd be right of you to treat it so, before you make atheists look even worse. :|

 

 

 

i will laugh a people who use the "god works in mysteries ways" arguement in all debates and dont contributes with new infomation or facts. i am not making atheists looking worse. as i am not an atheists, i never said i was. don't make asumpsions, that will make you look worse ;) and i am not looking down on any religion, as i got over 10 muslims friends and my family is christian. also i am not flaming anyone, i am debating, but so far they have yet to show me any "facts". show me facts or stop talking -.-

 

 

 

Agreed; the Ignorance in this instance is expecting us to believe in your beliefs without presenting any evidence, but yet you try to insist (as an excuse for not having evidence, whether you realise it or not) that faith should be enough to make people believe in God.

 

 

 

Basically it is ignorant to believe that your argument (with no valid evidence) holds as much weight as an argument that has evidence.

 

And it also ignorant to believe that your argument is correct because nothing has disproved it. A common example: no-one has disproved the existance of invisible unicorns, does it mean that they are real?

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You can't have a scientific argument against God. Nobody can provide evidence against it, according to the general consensus of what evidence is in this thread (which, in my point of view, is impossible. A fact is something indisputable, but anything is disputable).

 

This makes any claim of such an argument completely worthless. If something cannot be observed, cannot be tested and cannot be disproved the whole basis of the claim is just baseless speculation and say-so.

"The only way to avoid packaging the water would be to deliver it to people's homes and places of business through some sort of amazingly intricate and complex series of reservoirs, pumping stations, pipes . . . hey, wait a second.."

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I'm not trying to make you believe in God. I'm stating that it's ridiculous you expect "proof" of His existence. What am I supposed to give you, a fossil of Him?

 

 

 

Dark, believe what you want to believe. I'm not stopping you.

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I'm not trying to make you believe in God. I'm stating that it's ridiculous you expect "proof" of His existence. What am I supposed to give you, a fossil of Him?

 

 

 

Dark, believe what you want to believe. I'm not stopping you.

 

 

 

oh' snap did you just comfirm that he donsen't exist and he only "exist" in you're faith?(and yes something along those lines. or else he can't be real if you got no proof, but you can't get a fossil of him, or else he would be dead. just something that disprove ALL The scientific evidence that he is real. and spit all those sciantics in the face for making fake evidence!)

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well if thats there best counter arguement, i can laugh at there ignorance :lol: and my question still stand, and it's a good arguement for that god don't exist or is "good". if you look at my post on this page, i am getting better and better soon i will become god almighty! muhahaha. so evi... i mean good!

 

 

 

Their "ignorance"? You mean what they choose to believe?

 

 

 

Looking down on the beliefs of others simply because they aren't yours is "ignorance", no matter what your, or the other persons faith, is. This is a debate, not a flamefest, so it'd be right of you to treat it so, before you make atheists look even worse. :|

 

 

 

i will laugh a people who use the "god works in mysteries ways" arguement in all debates and dont contributes with new infomation or facts. i am not making atheists looking worse. as i am not an atheists, i never said i was. don't make asumpsions, that will make you look worse ;) and i am not looking down on any religion, as i got over 10 muslims friends and my family is christian. also i am not flaming anyone, i am debating, but so far they have yet to show me any "facts". show me facts or stop talking -.-

 

 

 

This is a "Is God real or not" debate, easily the most rediculous debate of all time, because there are no facts, for either side. You wanna debate something where there's facts? Don't debate theological matters.

 

 

 

That's great you have friends that practice Islam, and a Christian family. You still don't come off tolerate calling people who believe in God ignorant.

 

 

 

I'm sorry for jumping the gun and simply assuming what your faith is. And out of curisoty, what is you religion/belief?

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Their "ignorance"? You mean what they choose to believe?

 

 

 

Looking down on the beliefs of others simply because they aren't yours is "ignorance", no matter what your, or the other persons faith, is. This is a debate, not a flamefest, so it'd be right of you to treat it so, before you make atheists look even worse. :|

 

 

 

i will laugh a people who use the "god works in mysteries ways" arguement in all debates and dont contributes with new infomation or facts. i am not making atheists looking worse. as i am not an atheists, i never said i was. don't make asumpsions, that will make you look worse ;) and i am not looking down on any religion, as i got over 10 muslims friends and my family is christian. also i am not flaming anyone, i am debating, but so far they have yet to show me any "facts". show me facts or stop talking -.-

 

 

 

This is a "Is God real or not" debate, easily the most rediculous debate of all time, because there are no facts, for either side. You wanna debate something where there's facts? Don't debate theological matters.

 

 

 

That's great you have friends that practice Islam, and a Christian family. You still don't come off tolerate calling people who believe in God ignorant.

 

 

 

I'm sorry for jumping the gun and simply assuming what your faith is. And out of curisoty, what is you religion/belief?

 

 

 

i go no belief im not atheist yet not a chrestion/jew/muslim/other religion

 

 

 

yes this topic is pointless not like we're going to change the world. but it's fun argueing :D

 

 

 

Anyway, you COMPLETLY missunderstood me again ;) the thing about my family and friends is that i don't look down on religous people. the part about ignorant IS FOR THE PEOPLE HERE USING THE "GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS" ALL THE TIME. not at people like len, who can make a decent counter argue :wall:

 

 

 

and 1 time again: i am saying people who cant debate and only use the "god works in myserious ways" arguement all the time. not at religous people

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Then you're an agnostic, I guess.

 

 

 

to sheed some light ontil this i will bring in politic status:

 

i believe in every should share everything. yet you earn what you work for, liberal and communist at the same time, but not in the middle.

 

 

 

the wiki article dont quite show me what agnostic is. so what is the definition you mean by calling me that?

 

 

 

edit: i also questions everything i see. i want to know about everything. i only see logic and i only see faith, i may be one thing i may be anotherthing, i am still finding out. i want an proof in things i see i cant accept things that may be fake.

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It means you believe there's a possibility that there's a God out there, but you aren't sure. It's pretty much the in-between between theism and atheism.

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If using the excuse that "God works in mysterious ways" isn't acceptable, shouldn't the statement of "Show me physical proof or it's not real" also be unacceptable?

 

 

 

It doesn't seem fair that Christians can't use an excuse when a cheap statement is being said on every page.

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It means you believe there's a possibility that there's a God out there, but you aren't sure. It's pretty much the in-between between theism and atheism.

 

 

 

i don't think i am agnostic then ;) i am a speciel kind off guy :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

at kenshin: meybe but there is FAR more proof for god don't exist then for his existence. also we can bring new things into the debate where christians is nearly restrickted to a 200 year old book that also says that you can sell you daughter :lol: :wall:

 

 

 

yes it's true it does you would know if you read it

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oh' o just got called arrogant oh' snap. oh' well i gues the arguements is being used up after some time. you should serios watch the video, just get divx then you can watch it as i am right now :lol: i am not arrogant i am just stating facts, you still havent given me any proof -.- :wall: and by knowing muslims i was stating i knew other religions and are not looking down just debating. and getting a translated version is easy. and you can have an scientific arguement against god. just wait till we get the big bang theory 100% proved(its about 97% proven atm).

 

 

 

 

 

show me a freaking poof of god existence

 

 

 

There is NO PROOF of an existence of a God(s).

 

 

 

And likewise, there is nothing to disprove the existence of a God either.

 

 

 

See what I'm getting at? A factless debate, which is an oxymoron in itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I'm sorry for having a misunderstanding, I thought you were referring to religious people as ignorant. The "God works in misterious ways" argument is flawed in the way that it is cryptic, but this was already explained.

 

 

 

i don't think i am agnostic then i am a speciel kind off guy

 

 

 

 

 

at kenshin: meybe but there is FAR more proof for god don't exist then for his existence. also we can bring new things into the debate where christians is nearly restrickted to a 200 year old book that also says that you can sell you daughter

 

 

 

That has nothing to do with this topic. This about the existence of a God, not about biblical fallibility/infallibility.

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To all you people bashing the Bible... I'd like to know how much of the Bible you've actually read. And I don't mean going on a website looking up arguments against the Bible that quotes certain parts of it. I mean sitting down with the actual book and reading it.

 

 

 

 

 

Either ALL the Bible is literal, or none of it means anything. That is a fact.

 

 

 

I would argue that it isn't a fact. Many stories and legends are not literally true but have much to offer in the way of morality and general life principles. You saying the Bible is either entirely literal or entirely false is like saying a math textbook is entirely false because of a fictional story it uses to illustrate a true mathematical principle.

 

 

 

You have to understand that certain books are used to illustrate a certain type of truth. Math textbooks reveal truth about math, and the Bible reveals truth about God's character. Just like it's ridiculous to suggest an illustrative story invalidates all of the mathematical principles contained in a math textbook, it is ridiculous to suggest an illustrative story invalidates all of the principles about God's character contained in the Bible.

 

 

 

I agree with you that it remains quite a big leap to suggest that the Bible is either literal or worthless. However there is a point behind that conclusion, but perhaps not one quite that drastic. If the Bible does illustrate certain truths that do remain ambiguous to the reader and interpretation is necessary. It does not under any circumstance invalidate the Bible, it does however appear to me to invalidate all incorrect interpretations of the Bibie, which makes any interpretation quite irrelevant to us if our aim is to find an objective moral law. Unlike the example you gave of a mathematics book using illustration to demonstrate a maths problem, the illustration in the Bible can lead to all sorts of conclusions many of which will share the same credibility.

 

 

 

 

 

The Bible is supposed to be a "rigid moral code" - that cannot be the case if there is interpretation involved. So if being a "rigid moral code" is the Bible's purpose, then it pretty much is worthless.

 

 

 

Christians NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER reply to me on this one.

 

 

 

How can a book detail "objective morality" if it is open for interpretation in ANY WAY. The whole point of objectivity is that they are correct regardless of human existence. If we INTERPRET them, they cannot be objective (unless everyone has the same interpretation. Which they don't.). It is impossible. It's like saying 1+1=3. It just doesn't make any sense. You can't side step it, you can't dance around it, because it makes NO SENSE.

 

 

 

One of two things should be assumed:

 

 

 

1) All of the Bible is correct. There is no interpretation, we are to take things entirely literally all of the time.

 

 

 

2.) The Bible is open for interpretation, but it does not contain said "objective moral truths" because it is open for interpretation. So the Bible is not infallible, or coherent. None of the Bible is "God's will" because we have interpreted it and we cannot be sure that it is the correct interpretation.

 

Hey.

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It means you believe there's a possibility that there's a God out there, but you aren't sure. It's pretty much the in-between between theism and atheism.

 

 

 

i don't think i am agnostic then ;) i am a speciel kind off guy :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

at kenshin: meybe but there is FAR more proof for god don't exist then for his existence. also we can bring new things into the debate where christians is nearly restrickted to a 200 year old book that also says that you can sell you daughter :lol: :wall:

 

 

 

yes it's true it does you would know if you read it

 

 

 

Don't accuse me of never reading the bible -.- .

 

 

 

Just because that is how society worked in that day (and country), does that make it wrong? Trading a person for their own benefit shouldn't be looked at as a bad thing.

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The Bible is supposed to be a "rigid moral code" - that cannot be the case if there is interpretation involved. So if being a "rigid moral code" is the Bible's purpose, then it pretty much is worthless.

 

 

 

Christians NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER reply to me on this one.

 

 

 

How can a book detail "objective morality" if it is open for interpretation in ANY WAY. The whole point of objectivity is that they are correct regardless of human existence. If we INTERPRET them, they cannot be objective (unless everyone has the same interpretation. Which they don't.). It is impossible. It's like saying 1+1=3. It just doesn't make any sense. You can't side step it, you can't dance around it, because it makes NO SENSE.

 

 

 

One of two things should be assumed:

 

 

 

1) All of the Bible is correct. There is no interpretation, we are to take things entirely literally all of the time.

 

 

 

2.) The Bible is open for interpretation, but it does not contain said "objective moral truths" because it is open for interpretation. So the Bible is not infallible, or coherent. None of the Bible is "God's will" because we have interpreted it and we cannot be sure that it is the correct interpretation.

 

 

 

 

And

 

 

 

3.) The Bible is an aproximately 2,000 year old document that has been passed down orally for centuries and translated into hundreds of languages, and has therefore been been tampered with by human interference, putting in things that were not in the original document, or even taking things out.

 

 

 

Which does tie into #2 very nicely.

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oh' o just got called arrogant oh' snap. oh' well i gues the arguements is being used up after some time. you should serios watch the video, just get divx then you can watch it as i am right now :lol: i am not arrogant i am just stating facts, you still havent given me any proof -.- :wall: and by knowing muslims i was stating i knew other religions and are not looking down just debating. and getting a translated version is easy. and you can have an scientific arguement against god. just wait till we get the big bang theory 100% proved(its about 97% proven atm).

 

 

 

 

 

show me a freaking poof of god existence

 

 

 

There is NO PROOF of an existence of a God(s).

 

 

 

And likewise, there is nothing to disprove the existence of a God either.

 

 

 

See what I'm getting at? A factless debate, which is an oxymoron in itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I'm sorry for having a misunderstanding, I thought you were referring to religious people as ignorant. The "God works in misterious ways" argument is flawed in the way that it is cryptic, but this was already explained.

 

 

 

no problem that happens when english is not you're first language. we went off topic relax we're back ontopic again -.-

 

 

If I can't ask for proof, then I must pose a question to you. Why do you believe in something that has no evidence to back it up?

 

 

 

Scientific evidence that refutes claims made in the bible:

 

-Evolution (Speciation)

 

-The Big Bang

 

-Carbon Dating

 

 

 

Claims made by the bible which have been proven inaccurate:

 

-Earth is ~6000 years old

 

-God created man

 

-The was a massive worldwide flood

 

 

 

Evidence for the bible:

 

-....

 

^^

 

nomoredead

 

 

 

truenoob is here :D now it's going to become interesting :P

 

 

 

@ kenshin

 

omfg i can't believe you said that slave trading is alright if you do it for you're own reason. what the hell is that kind of mentality. that's like saying it's okay to shoot someone if you stand in you're way of succes. and no i did't accuse you of not reading the bible. some people here got a problem reading propely(aleast my post)

 

 

 

gotta say this: if you believe it was a good thing even back, then there is something serios wrong with you -.-

My private chat is always ON.

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6 years. 1 dragon CS drop and some barrows, bad luck?

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