Is God real post your thoughts!

[tehravenx]

1000th post on this thread? And I don't believe that god is real. No pics no proof :P.

[Lenticular_J]

It seems as though you've met ALL the wrong people, then. Ignorance is something left for your side of the argument, for the most part. Here's a fantastic quote by president George W. Bush from 1987:

 

"No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."

 

The quote suggests that atheist shouldn't be considered patriots, or even citizens of these United States. Now, I'll be fair and say that the quote is given by an ignorant man, and it does not represent the majority of Christians. However, it is written in the bible that the only way to heaven is through the father, Jesus. This means that no atheist can get into heaven, which, by default, means all atheists will burn in hell. I'd say that pretty much every church deems us as "Evil" based off of that.

 

 

 

And of course the church extends it's hand to atheists and agnostics. It's looking for a few extra followers, a little more money, and a few more people to "save". Now, naturallly, it would be a horrible generalization to say that all churches try to convert people for money purposes. I would assume that most people try to convert atheists and agnostics into religious people because they think they are "saving" them. The church does NOT approve of our lifestyles. Athesits, agnostics, homosexuals, and pretty much anyone else who doesn't believe what they believe is living the wrong lifestyle and will surely burn in hell. The church will try to convert you until the day you die.

 

 

 

I'd say that just about every Christian has a misinformed perception of the atheist lifestyle. We lead more wonderful lives than you could even fathom. Why, you might ask? Because we know we don't waste a single second of our only life following a false deity.

 

 

 

It seems as though you dug up a quote from a time where being atheist or agnostic meant most of the country would shun you, not to mention from a man who has shown himself to be less than a genius.

 

 

 

I find it unbelievably ignorant that you're claiming you lead more wonderful lives than a religious person. You act as though every atheist tries to further their and others' lives with science, which is just as false as believing religious people waste their lives with worshiping their God(s).

 

 

 

Have you ever read the Bible? Cover to cover? New or Old Testament? It's not to be taken literally. And if it was, you'd realize Hell is Earth, and that if you're atheist, God will allow you to be right. Nothing will happen when you die. If you have faith in Him, though, you will go to Heaven when you die. I never understood where the notion of the firey Hell came up, in my best interpretations of the New Testament I've found nothing that points to it. Just that God cast Satan and his followers down to Earth, and that we ended up here as well.

 

 

 

Only one church I've ever been in has tried to convert someone, and I have to say, that pastor was not a an to be respected. They've allowed atheists and agnostics in, even if they were disruptive (for the most part, none were. Just a group of kids at one in Arizona).

 

 

 

You seem to believe there's only one sort of church in the world for Christians. Catholic churches may be more prepared to offer a conversion, but I frequent Baptist and Methodist churches (as they're common here in the south), and as said earlier, only one offered a conversion.

[Roseiah]

I used to believe in God very strongly as a child. I went to a Christian School but I was the only one in my family who believed in God. I used to read the bible every night before I went to bed, I could quote passages from it, and I was only 7/8. I believed in God yet I never went to Church. When my little sister was born and a few months old she was to be Christened as a Catholic, so my family had to go to Church for several weeks ever Sunday for some reason. Week after Week of Church and my faith and belief in God died. My faith had always been enjoyable, but going to Church gave me the time to sit and think. After 6 weeks I believed that God didn't exist because of going to Church.

 

 

 

I would love to believe that once we die, there is a heaven and God judges us. I believe in the soul but I believe that one our body dies, that's it. End of. It's like a sleep but with no dreams and no waking up. For example, you go to sleep and you wake up hours later, but it never seems like hours. I believe that once you die, you will go to sleep but never wake up, which I really wish wasn't true.

[NoMoreDead]

[hide=]

It seems as though you've met ALL the wrong people, then. Ignorance is something left for your side of the argument, for the most part. Here's a fantastic quote by president George W. Bush from 1987:

 

"No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."

 

The quote suggests that atheist shouldn't be considered patriots, or even citizens of these United States. Now, I'll be fair and say that the quote is given by an ignorant man, and it does not represent the majority of Christians. However, it is written in the bible that the only way to heaven is through the father, Jesus. This means that no atheist can get into heaven, which, by default, means all atheists will burn in hell. I'd say that pretty much every church deems us as "Evil" based off of that.

 

 

 

And of course the church extends it's hand to atheists and agnostics. It's looking for a few extra followers, a little more money, and a few more people to "save". Now, naturallly, it would be a horrible generalization to say that all churches try to convert people for money purposes. I would assume that most people try to convert atheists and agnostics into religious people because they think they are "saving" them. The church does NOT approve of our lifestyles. Athesits, agnostics, homosexuals, and pretty much anyone else who doesn't believe what they believe is living the wrong lifestyle and will surely burn in hell. The church will try to convert you until the day you die.

 

 

 

I'd say that just about every Christian has a misinformed perception of the atheist lifestyle. We lead more wonderful lives than you could even fathom. Why, you might ask? Because we know we don't waste a single second of our only life following a false deity.

[/hide]

 

 

 

It seems as though you dug up a quote from a time where being atheist or agnostic meant most of the country would shun you, not to mention from a man who has shown himself to be less than a genius.

 

 

 

 

A quote from 1987 is "Dug up"? This coming from someone who follows 2000 year old texts. I hardly consider a quote spoken 21 years ago to be covered in dirt. Times were not all that different then in terms of atheism vs religion.

 

 

 

 

I find it unbelievably ignorant that you're claiming you lead more wonderful lives than a religious person. You act as though every atheist tries to further their and others' lives with science, which is just as false as believing religious people waste their lives with worshiping their God(s).

 

 

 

 

I literally lmao'ed at this. Don't all religious people worship their god in some way or another? Don't they at least give him a thought once in a while, looking to him for guidance? I do consider it a waste because of what I believe. So, no, it's not "as false as believing religious people waste their lives worshiping their God(s)", because that's what I feel religious people are doing.

 

 

 

I think that we do lead more wonderful lives because our minds are free, and living a life without worrying about tomorrow. We live for today.

 

 

 

Have you ever read the Bible? Cover to cover? New or Old Testament? It's not to be taken literally. And if it was, you'd realize Hell is Earth, and that if you're atheist, God will allow you to be right. Nothing will happen when you die. If you have faith in Him, though, you will go to Heaven when you die. I never understood where the notion of the firey Hell came up, in my best interpretations of the New Testament I've found nothing that points to it. Just that God cast Satan and his followers down to Earth, and that we ended up here as well.

 

 

 

 

NO HELL?! Well you must re-read the bible then, because hell is abundant in the old testament. God and Jesus warn of the fire that awaits sinners and those who do not accept christ.

 

 

 

Only one church I've ever been in has tried to convert someone, and I have to say, that pastor was not a an to be respected. They've allowed atheists and agnostics in, even if they were disruptive (for the most part, none were. Just a group of kids at one in Arizona).

 

 

 

You seem to believe there's only one sort of church in the world for Christians. Catholic churches may be more prepared to offer a conversion, but I frequent Baptist and Methodist churches (as they're common here in the south), and as said earlier, only one offered a conversion

 

 

 

 

All I can say is that I've met plenty (And I won't refer to them as "The majority", and you do) of christians who try to show me "The way of christ". If you cannot recognize this, just ask another atheist, and it is likely that at least once, they've been talked to about the way to live life.

[Lenticular_J]

A quote from 1987 is "Dug up"? This coming from someone who follows 2000 year old texts. I hardly consider a quote spoken 21 years ago to be covered in dirt. Times were not all that different then in terms of atheism vs religion.

 

Yes, they were very different. Even in the 90's, I remember the shock in the news when a prominent person announced atheism. Besides, I don't "follow" the New Testament (whose books were all written under 2,000 years ago), I follow morals that I've derived myself with the help of the New and Old Testaments.

 

 

 

I literally lmao'ed at this. Don't all religious people worship their god in some way or another? Don't they at least give him a thought once in a while, looking to him for guidance? I do consider it a waste because of what I believe. So, no, it's not "as false as believing religious people waste their lives worshiping their God(s)", because that's what I feel religious people are doing.

 

 

 

I think that we do lead more wonderful lives because our minds are free, and living a life without worrying about tomorrow. We live for today.

 

A debate is no place to "lmao".

 

You consider thinking a waste of time? I believe I need say no more.

 

 

 

NO HELL?! Well you must re-read the bible then, because hell is abundant in the old testament. God and Jesus warn of the fire that awaits sinners and those who do not accept christ.

 

You know what's funny? The Old Testament was written before Jesus and his disciples were alive.

 

 

 

All I can say is that I've met plenty (And I won't refer to them as "The majority", and you do) of christians who try to show me "The way of christ". If you cannot recognize this, just ask another atheist, and it is likely that at least once, they've been talked to about the way to live life.

 

I can't debate on people you've met. But you seem to have a double standard, as here you are, debating about how "free" atheists live their lives compared to us lowly religious people.

[NoMoreDead]

Yes, they were very different. Even in the 90's, I remember the shock in the news when a prominent person announced atheism. Besides, I don't "follow" the New Testament (whose books were all written under 2,000 years ago), I follow morals that I've derived myself with the help of the New and Old Testaments.

 

 

Hello. This is reality. We need to talk.

 

 

 

If Barrack Obama came out today and said he was atheist, the whole election would change. Not much has changed.

 

 

 

 

A debate is no place to "lmao".

 

You consider thinking a waste of time? I believe I need say no more.

 

 

 

 

Well, I don't really see what that proved, other than the fact that you have no rebuttal, and are completely without an answer.

 

 

 

You know what's funny? The Old Testament was written before Jesus and his disciples were alive.

 

 

 

 

Well, here goes your argument:

 

"The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament, where hell is typically described using the Greek word Tartarus or the Hebrew word Gehenna. Hell is the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed, reserved for those who refuse by their own free choice to believe and be converted from sin, even to the end of their lives."

 

 

 

As it turns out, I was 100% wrong. The Old Testament DOESN'T mention hell, whereas the new speaks of it countless times. Woah, you really messed up on that one. Sure seems like you don't really know about what you believe in. Somehow, it doesn't even surprise me.

 

 

 

I can't debate on people you've met. But you seem to have a double standard, as here you are, debating about how "free" atheists live their lives compared to us lowly religious people.

 

 

 

Double Standard? Where? Show me an example of my "Double Standard".

[Cabbage_Boii]

Yes i beleive there is a huge man in the sky that watches over us and makes sure NOTHING goes wrong. like no war. no illness's circle of life my derrier kids. No i dun beleive some big man lives in clouds and watched me sleep at night. Sorry :|

[doomy]

I do not believe in a god of any sort, although I change my opinions about it alot....

 

I kinda believe that we all live some form of set life, and we live through everybodies lives to gain experience before heading off to some new world. Sounds kinda crap but I think about it alot...

 

 

 

I do sometimes think about there being a Heaven and a God of some sort, but I just can't believe it as much as what I said before.

 

 

 

But mostly I believe that I can wait and find out one day :P

[Zierro]

Yes i beleive there is a huge man in the sky that watches over us and makes sure NOTHING goes wrong. like no war. no illness's circle of life my derrier kids. No i dun beleive some big man lives in clouds and watched me sleep at night. Sorry :|

 

 

 

So if there was a God, he would have to be obligated to make the world into some sort of problem-free place?

[Lenticular_J]

Hello. This is reality. We need to talk.

 

 

 

If Barrack Obama came out today and said he was atheist, the whole election would change. Not much has changed.

 

That's what I was saying...?

 

 

 

Well, I don't really see what that proved, other than the fact that you have no rebuttal, and are completely without an answer.

 

You're right, I don't have a rebuttal. How can I have one to your believing thinking about something is stupid?

 

 

 

Well, here goes your argument:

 

"The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament, where hell is typically described using the Greek word Tartarus or the Hebrew word Gehenna. Hell is the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed, reserved for those who refuse by their own free choice to believe and be converted from sin, even to the end of their lives."

 

 

 

As it turns out, I was 100% wrong. The Old Testament DOESN'T mention hell, whereas the new speaks of it countless times. Woah, you really messed up on that one. Sure seems like you don't really know about what you believe in. Somehow, it doesn't even surprise me.

 

I know, the New Testament mentions Hell as where Lucifer and his fellow Fallen Angels were cast by God. And in the Bible, it states that due to Satan using our base human instincts of curiosity against Eve, she ate the forbidden apple and it was destined that they and all their offspring would live in Hell with Satan - Earth.

 

 

 

Is that a quote from Wikipedia? Eh, I wouldn't quote Wikipedia in a debate. Its sources, yes, but not its articles.

 

 

 

Double Standard? Where? Show me an example of my "Double Standard".

 

You state how you hate people pushing their faith, but here we both are, pushing for our own beliefs. I would apologize for pushing my faith at you, but your rudeness has offended me.

[NoMoreDead]

 

That's what I was saying...?

 

 

 

 

WRONG. You were saying that atheists were persecuted more heavily "Back then", whereas in reality, not much has changed.

 

 

 

 

You're right, I don't have a rebuttal. How can I have one to your believing thinking about something is stupid?

 

 

 

Don't they at least give him a thought once in a while, looking to him for guidance? I do consider it a waste because of what I believe. So, no, it's not "as false as believing religious people waste their lives worshiping their God(s)", because that's what I feel religious people are doing.

 

 

 

I think that we do lead more wonderful lives because our minds are free, and living a life without worrying about tomorrow. We live for today.

 

 

 

 

Rebuttal required.

 

 

 

 

I know, the New Testament mentions Hell as where Lucifer and his fellow Fallen Angels were cast by God. And in the Bible, it states that due to Satan using our base human instincts of curiosity against Eve, she ate the forbidden apple and it was destined that they and all their offspring would live in Hell with Satan - Earth.

 

 

 

Is that a quote from Wikipedia? Eh, I wouldn't quote Wikipedia in a debate. Its sources, yes, but not its articles.

 

 

 

 

WRONG.

 

"Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22, quoting Jesus)

 

 

 

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")

 

 

 

Two passages from the New Testament. Countless others avaliable here: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

You state how you hate people pushing their faith, but here we both are, pushing for our own beliefs. I would apologize for pushing my faith at you, but your rudeness has offended me.

 

 

 

I hate when people push their beliefs on me. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone, and neither are you. I am not trying to convert you, and you haven't tried to convert me.

[Cup Lion]

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")

 

Just mentioning that this verse is purely emphasizing that fact that, if something causes you to sin, get rid of it or do something about it. It isn't meant to be taken literally.

 

 

 

Don't go cutting off your hands, people. :D

[Lenticular_J]

WRONG. You were saying that atheists were persecuted more heavily "Back then", whereas in reality, not much has changed.

 

I guess I just don't understand what you're saying. We kinda of agreed, now you're saying wrong...?

 

 

 

 

Don't they at least give him a thought once in a while, looking to him for guidance? I do consider it a waste because of what I believe. So, no, it's not "as false as believing religious people waste their lives worshiping their God(s)", because that's what I feel religious people are doing.

 

 

 

I think that we do lead more wonderful lives because our minds are free, and living a life without worrying about tomorrow. We live for today.

 

 

So atheism makes you live a worry-free lifestyle, apparently? Yeah, that's pretty false.

 

 

 

WRONG.

 

"Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22, quoting Jesus)

 

 

 

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")

 

 

 

Two passages from the New Testament. Countless others avaliable here: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm

 

I've perused that site, and don't like it. It isn't biased, it just seems so cookie-cutter.

 

 

 

I suppose I could have phrased it better, so I apologize. In the Bible, Lucifer and the other Fallen Angels were cast to Earth. And I believe they were aflame, I can't find my New Testament. But Hell is a lack of God, and a presence of the fires of Satan's being - and, sin. That's how I've interpreted it, but I don't believe in a firey Hell like that, whereas others in my religion do. As said, the Bible is not to be taken literally. That's been said many times. It's not a rigorous book of guidelines, it's a book to read and make your own moral guidelines for yourself, with the help of God. That was the point of Jesus' teachings, he wanted people to live good, moral lives, helping others to better the world.

[NoMoreDead]

 

I guess I just don't understand what you're saying. We kinda of agreed, now you're saying wrong...?

 

 

You said that times were different in 1987. I said absolutely not. We were never in agreement.

 

 

 

 

So atheism makes you live a worry-free lifestyle, apparently? Yeah, that's pretty false.

 

 

Remember this?:

 

 

We live for today.

 

 

That doesn't mean we live a completely care-free lifestyle. It means we live only for today, without worrying what tomorrow might hold (at least I do). Religious people MUST worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow might bring judgement.

 

 

 

 

I've perused that site, and don't like it. It isn't biased, it just seems so cookie-cutter.

 

 

 

I suppose I could have phrased it better, so I apologize. In the Bible, Lucifer and the other Fallen Angels were cast to Earth. And I believe they were aflame, I can't find my New Testament. But Hell is a lack of God, and a presence of the fires of Satan's being - and, sin. That's how I've interpreted it, but I don't believe in a firey Hell like that, whereas others in my religion do. As said, the Bible is not to be taken literally. That's been said many times. It's not a rigorous book of guidelines, it's a book to read and make your own moral guidelines for yourself, with the help of God. That was the point of Jesus' teachings, he wanted people to live good, moral lives, helping others to better the world.

 

 

 

I still don't understand where people get that the bible isn't to be taken literally. Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely for taking moral's out of the bible and not taking the stories literally, mostly because the stories are outrageous and totally unbelieveable. However, if the bible/OT/NT weren't to be taken literally, then what texts are the religion to be based off of? Hell, "Believers.org" says:

 

 

 

"The Bible is a Divine Revelation. In the Bible we find out what God wants mankind to know about Himself and His plan.

 

 

 

The Bible is the only written revelation of God to man."

 

 

 

Again, I agree with your viewpoint that the bible isn't to be taken literally, but that's because I'm atheist. It's hard for me to think that if a text was written by god himself (So the story of the bible goes), then wouldn't you want to follow it?

[monkeyboo2]

 

 

 

Remember this?:

 

 

We live for today.

 

 

That doesn't mean we live a completely care-free lifestyle. It means we live only for today, without worrying what tomorrow might hold (at least I do). Religious people MUST worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow might bring judgement.

 

 

 

 

I'm an Atheist and I worry about tomorrow (which i'll assume is interchangable with consequences), but I don't have to worry about God judging me; the law is the one that judges, and I don't want to spend my one, only and therefore valuable mortal life in Prison.

 

 

 

Personally I think in that sense; we're more or less the same except we have different 'Judges'. I just (for afore mentioned reasons) don't believe that your judger exists which makes the rules very easy to bend and change under his name (if you get one what I mean).

 

And the law is just another way of judging which I think stands up better because all laws are democratically decided (in the US and UK), instead of made up by the Pope/Church to suit their purposes.

 

 

 

 

Monkey, where were you able to find a Christian church or school that made atheists out as evil? In every church I've ever been in, including a Jewish (I forgot the word), they encouraged atheists and agnostics to look into their faith, and make sure they will enjoy the path they choose. Then again, a lot of these churches were in the Southern and Western parts of the country. Yes, we're a lot more tolerant then you think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hide=]

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

 

 

 

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

 

 

 

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

 

 

 

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

 

 

 

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

 

 

 

Dont associate with non-Christians. Dont receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

 

 

 

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

 

 

 

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

 

 

 

Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

 

 

 

Christians are of God; everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

 

 

 

The non-Christian is a deceiver and an anti-Christ 2 John 1:7

 

 

 

Anyone who doesnt share Pauls beliefs has an evil heart. Hebrews 3:12

 

 

 

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

 

 

 

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

 

 

 

[/hide]

 

I think those cover Atheists and suggest that Christians are morally superior. You may say that they are taken out of context or misinterpreted but those seem pretty clear cut to me. Many people do take the bible to be the word of God and will believe this. The bible is studied in school and preached in Church.

 

 

 

Admittedly, we have come some way from the Church and Bible promoted campaign of 'Burn the Heretics' so lets find some more recent examples to show that Atheists are taught to be Evil other than in direct quotes from the bible.

 

 

 

Some more recent examples:

 

 

 

Perfect A Sermen from Rev. Peter Faass at Easter 2007.

 

 

 

Yet that statement paints all religious faiths in their various expressions with the same broad brush of intolerance- reasonable for making the atheists argument - but not truthful to reality. I can concur with the observation that historically the intolerance exhibited by various professed religious people has caused much evil in the world. Yet professed atheists like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao and their adherents have been equally as culpable in wreaking havoc on humanity. At least Christians - in all their sinfulness - are called to repentance and amendment of life. What are atheists called too?

 

 

 

It also seems disingenuous to disregard the fact that when people of faith are true to the call of an all loving God, they have brought about extraordinary good and holiness in the world.

 

 

 

Ultimately todays atheists see people of faith as being duped; as victims of a bad joke. Its that you poor dumb sap look that I receive from some people when I tell them I am priest.

 

 

 

 

A sugar coated version of Atheists are evil.

 

Of course most churches nowadays would never get away with blatantly saying outtright that Atheists are evil, but they will make suggestions that they are morally challenged such as this sermon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

G2g post them later

[Lenticular_J]

That's a very good point, Monkey, apart from the Pope/church idea. While the Catholic Church does do some things many people (even its members) find a bit off, the Pope has much less power than you'd think.

 

 

 

NoMore, some people believe that the Bible is to be followed so rigorously. I simply don't, and neither do a good number of people.

 

 

 

Believers.org is probably one of the groups that believe that.

 

The only texts I've found as being said to have been completely written by the Lord Himself were the Commandments. Although in the Old Testament, it could be construed as God having told Moses them.

[monkeyboo2]

That's a very good point, Monkey, apart from the Pope/church idea. While the Catholic Church does do some things many people (even its members) find a bit off, the Pope has much less power than you'd think.

 

 

 

 

Well, after the Pope announced the new 'sins' (or atleast he went through with it); I think my point is valid that the Church can make rules 'on Gods behalf' to suit their own purposes. The new sins seem like a blatent attempt to slow scientific knowledge. And i'm sure we all know that scientific knowledge has disproved areas of religion in the past (such as age of Earth and other Bible stories) and it seems to me like the Catholic Church wants to limit its damage to their religion (which is their motive; with the 'Divine Inspiration' and large Christian Network being their Means)

 

 

 

Anyway Lenticular; its nice debating with you. You make good arguments (in general) and you accept losses when you need to :).

 

 

 

Can't say the same for Mageman though; he seems to have gone quiet after my butchering post on Morallity and Christian Perceptions of Atheists on page 50.

[user1991]

Wait wait wait...

 

 

 

"It's not meant to be taken literally" (The bible) - Lenticular J

 

 

 

So.. that means it's meant to be interpreted? That would kinda imply that you give it your own meaning. How can it also be a rigid moral code as so many Christians profess it to be? In fact, how can it even be the word of God? Well, I suppose it could but, if it isn't meant to be taken literally, then one can simply choose how to interpret it... which in turn means you can choose your beliefs and preach them as the "word of God"?

 

 

 

Excuse me one second but this is what I've been trying to argue for pages and pages. It's either a rigid moral code as well as literal or NOT a rigid moral code as well as interpretive. It can't be both. It's actually impossible for it to be both. Unless every single person on Earth has exactly the same interpretation. Which they don't.

 

 

 

And don't say "Oh but only some parts are open for interpretation" - cause they aren't. Christians side step anything they don't agree with. You know that part where Jesus tells the wealthy man to sell everything he owns and give it to the poor, well Christians actually argue that Jesus infact meant "spiritually poor" and therefore they use it as justification to preach. If he meant that, the whole topic of the "wealthy man" wouldn't have been included - unless the author was trying to mislead you - but when I actually think about it, they probably were.

[warri0r45]

I would have thought that the word of god would be divinely simple and wouldn't need interpretation, let alone the need to get a tertiary education to interpret it.

[Lenticular_J]

Wait wait wait...

 

 

 

"It's not meant to be taken literally" (The bible) - Lenticular J

 

 

 

So.. that means it's meant to be interpreted? That would kinda imply that you give it your own meaning. How can it also be a rigid moral code as so many Christians profess it to be? In fact, how can it even be the word of God? Well, I suppose it could but, if it isn't meant to be taken literally, then one can simply choose how to interpret it... which in turn means you can choose your beliefs and preach them as the "word of God"?

 

 

 

Excuse me one second but this is what I've been trying to argue for pages and pages. It's either a rigid moral code as well as literal or NOT a rigid moral code as well as interpretive. It can't be both. It's actually impossible for it to be both. Unless every single person on Earth has exactly the same interpretation. Which they don't.

 

 

 

And don't say "Oh but only some parts are open for interpretation" - cause they aren't. Christians side step anything they don't agree with. You know that part where Jesus tells the wealthy man to sell everything he owns and give it to the poor, well Christians actually argue that Jesus infact meant "spiritually poor" and therefore they use it as justification to preach. If he meant that, the whole topic of the "wealthy man" wouldn't have been included - unless the author was trying to mislead you - but when I actually think about it, they probably were.

 

It depends on your belief system. I don't take it literally, many people close to me don't, and it seems a lot of people here on the forums don't. Some people do.

 

 

 

Is your life ruled completely by any of Darwin's theories? Scientific Method? No, I'm sure it isn't, because I'm not going to try and guess what you believe. It's sheer ignorance to believe everyone believes the same thing. I don't mean to take this personally, but I really hate debating with you, True.

[user1991]

Wait wait wait...

 

 

 

"It's not meant to be taken literally" (The bible) - Lenticular J

 

 

 

So.. that means it's meant to be interpreted? That would kinda imply that you give it your own meaning. How can it also be a rigid moral code as so many Christians profess it to be? In fact, how can it even be the word of God? Well, I suppose it could but, if it isn't meant to be taken literally, then one can simply choose how to interpret it... which in turn means you can choose your beliefs and preach them as the "word of God"?

 

 

 

Excuse me one second but this is what I've been trying to argue for pages and pages. It's either a rigid moral code as well as literal or NOT a rigid moral code as well as interpretive. It can't be both. It's actually impossible for it to be both. Unless every single person on Earth has exactly the same interpretation. Which they don't.

 

 

 

And don't say "Oh but only some parts are open for interpretation" - cause they aren't. Christians side step anything they don't agree with. You know that part where Jesus tells the wealthy man to sell everything he owns and give it to the poor, well Christians actually argue that Jesus infact meant "spiritually poor" and therefore they use it as justification to preach. If he meant that, the whole topic of the "wealthy man" wouldn't have been included - unless the author was trying to mislead you - but when I actually think about it, they probably were.

 

It depends on your belief system. I don't take it literally, many people close to me don't, and it seems a lot of people here on the forums don't. Some people do.

 

 

 

Is your life ruled completely by any of Darwin's theories? Scientific Method? No, I'm sure it isn't, because I'm not going to try and guess what you believe. It's sheer ignorance to believe everyone believes the same thing. I don't mean to take this personally, but I really hate debating with you, True.

 

 

 

It just gets to me.

 

 

 

Stem cell research, homosexuality, drugs, guns, war - Christians all have a different opinions on them. That's the entire point. Of course I'm not saying that they believe the same thing. That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. If the Bible was a "rigid moral code" then it wouldn't be open for human interpretation. The entire reason for there being different view points are because the Bible is open for interpretation. So when a Christian tries to legislate something because "it says so in the Bible" - they're trying to subject the public to their will, under the guise of it being the will of a Supreme being.

 

 

 

Whilst I'm aware you don't all have the same opinions, the idea of a book that details a "coherent, objective morality" that is STILL open for interpretation BLOWS MY MIND. It isn't possible. It's actually IMPOSSIBLE. It doesnt make any sense, it defies the laws of logic and reason. You just seem to want to discard anything I say because it challenges your religion. You can't explain to me HOW the Bible can be a moral code or HOW it can detail "objective morality" when said objective morality is open for interpretation. Of course my life isn't "ruled by Darwin's theories or the scientific method." I don't pretend that they're the word of God. I don't think they teach me objective morality either. Your argument here doesn't make any sense.

 

 

 

Either ALL the Bible is literal, or none of it means anything. That is a fact. If you decide which parts to ignore/take note of, thats simply what you've done. Decided. This isn't open for debate. It's a logical statement. Something cannot be considered a "rigid moral code" if you can simply decide which parts of said morality you believe in. It isn't a code. It's a catalogue. There is no "objectivity" involved. In fact, I think objectivity is just a BS concept that humans made up to make us feel like we actually mean something. Faith, God, Jesus, Yahweh, WHATEVER - put it aside a second. The concept of "objective morality" can only be a system of actual objective morality if the book in which it is supposed to be contained has a 100% definitive meaning. If it is open for interpretation in any way, shape or form, then you're simply cherry picking what you want to believe and telling everyone else that this is what God wants.

 

 

 

The only people who can actually say that it contains said "objective moral code" are the people who believe every single word. Which is impossible, considering it contains so many contradictions. This is why, ultimately, I think the Bible means nothing at all. Either you're choosing what you want to believe and telling everyone it's what God believes, or you believe the entire thing which in turn means you believe multiple, contradictory ideologies, which again in turn means you have to choose between one of them. It doesn't make any sense.....

[Zierro]

I would have thought that the word of god would be divinely simple and wouldn't need interpretation, let alone the need to get a tertiary education to interpret it.

 

 

 

I agree. We don't really need a whole book to tell us, "Follow Jesus's ways and the world will be a better place." The whole point of Christianity can fit on a T-shirt.

 

 

 

Why do we even need the extra stuff? Why can't the Bible be a small book that just tells us about the ways of Jesus (How to be a Perfect Person for Dummies). All that extra hubbub about heaven and hell and the word of God just leads to confusion, arguments, and ultimately leads to the rejection of the Christian ideal - to follow Jesus's ways.

 

 

 

I'm not a Christian and I still go by the golden rule. I don't go to church. I don't read the Bible. I don't pray. I don't because none of that ends with a rewarding tangible result, but following the golden rule always does, whether God is real or not.

[user1991]

I would have thought that the word of god would be divinely simple and wouldn't need interpretation, let alone the need to get a tertiary education to interpret it.

 

 

 

I agree. We don't really need a whole book to tell us, "Follow Jesus's ways and the world will be a better place." The whole point of Christianity can fit on a T-shirt.

 

 

 

Why do we even need the extra stuff? Why can't the Bible be a small book that just tells us about the ways of Jesus (How to be a Perfect Person for Dummies). All that extra hubbub about heaven and hell and the word of God just leads to confusion, arguments, and ultimately leads to the rejection of the Christian ideal - to follow Jesus's ways.

 

 

 

I'm not a Christian and I still go by the golden rule. I don't go to church. I don't read the Bible. I don't pray. I don't because none of that ends with a rewarding tangible result, but following the golden rule always does, whether God is real or not.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

But all the bs about homosexuality, objective morality, BLEGH is annoying. Especially because it isn't just atheists who take not of it - it's not as if Christians are simply following the golden rule and we're pointing out all this other irrelevent stuff. A lot of them do actually believe that BS.

 

 

 

Even smart ones, like Sly_Wizard, who is obviously a really intelligent guy. It just blows my mind when he talks about the Bible being "coherent, infallible, and forming a coherent world view" whilst still acknowledging that it is open for interpretation. I mean, that really doesn't make any sense. And a lot of Christians do everything BUT follow Jesus.

[Lenticular_J]

I would have thought that the word of god would be divinely simple and wouldn't need interpretation, let alone the need to get a tertiary education to interpret it.

 

 

 

I agree. We don't really need a whole book to tell us, "Follow Jesus's ways and the world will be a better place." The whole point of Christianity can fit on a T-shirt.

 

 

 

Why do we even need the extra stuff? Why can't the Bible be a small book that just tells us about the ways of Jesus (How to be a Perfect Person for Dummies). All that extra hubbub about heaven and hell and the word of God just leads to confusion, arguments, and ultimately leads to the rejection of the Christian ideal - to follow Jesus's ways.

 

 

 

I'm not a Christian and I still go by the golden rule. I don't go to church. I don't read the Bible. I don't pray. I don't because none of that ends with a rewarding tangible result, but following the golden rule always does, whether God is real or not.

 

I actually have the same opinion, although I am Christian, do pray, and occasionally go to church. I find going to any religious event usually quite fun.

 

 

 

I just like to try and be a theologician. I know that probably isn't the actual term. So I'll say it's a combination of someone who studies theology and a magician.

[monkeyboo2]

I would have thought that the word of god would be divinely simple and wouldn't need interpretation, let alone the need to get a tertiary education to interpret it.

 

 

 

I agree. We don't really need a whole book to tell us, "Follow Jesus's ways and the world will be a better place." The whole point of Christianity can fit on a T-shirt.

 

 

 

Why do we even need the extra stuff? Why can't the Bible be a small book that just tells us about the ways of Jesus (How to be a Perfect Person for Dummies).

 

 

 

Go to Page 50 for my post on how being Christian does not make you 'Perfect'.

 

(from Monkeyboo2)

 

 

 

I'm not a Christian and I still go by the golden rule. I don't go to church. I don't read the Bible. I don't pray. I don't because none of that ends with a rewarding tangible result, but following the golden rule always does, whether God is real or not.

 

 

 

Basically the Golden Rule is common sense; and a generally good rule. There is room for improvement on it.

 

Wouldn't it be so much better if it was:

 

Treat Others as THEY would like to be Treated.

 

 

 

If this was in place; not only would gays have their rights, but Atheists like me wouldn't have Christians trying to convert me if I pass by a church amongst other obvious benefits.