Pokemon Thread

[Maxingmck]

K ill try it some time i gtg irl

[Lemeja]

 

[Riku3220]

Whoa whoa what? They're switching the colors? [bleep] that I'm getting White. My mistake earlier.

[Alg]

Whoa whoa what? They're switching the colors? [bleep] that I'm getting White. My mistake earlier.

Same unless the white dragon is infinitely more amazing or black version has better exclusives. Then there's hacking for the black dragon :grin:

 

If it's like dragon/ice or something I'd be all over it.

[Riku3220]

Whoa whoa what? They're switching the colors? [bleep] that I'm getting White. My mistake earlier.

Same unless the white dragon is infinitely more amazing or black version has better exclusives. Then there's hacking for the black dragon :grin:

 

If it's like dragon/ice or something I'd be all over it.

It doesn't look very Ice type. It looks more like a Flying type. I'm thinking the black dragon is Dragon/Rock. It'd be pretty sweet.

[Buzzcut3]

Whoa whoa what? They're switching the colors? [bleep] that I'm getting White. My mistake earlier.

Same unless the white dragon is infinitely more amazing or black version has better exclusives. Then there's hacking for the black dragon :grin:

 

If it's like dragon/ice or something I'd be all over it.

It doesn't look very Ice type. It looks more like a Flying type. I'm thinking the black dragon is Dragon/Rock. It'd be pretty sweet.

 

The rumor going around is that it's dragon/electric because of what a voice actress said. I think she was talking about the black one (I think she says the name), but can't be asked checking again.

[Lemeja]

Whoa whoa what? They're switching the colors? [bleep] that I'm getting White. My mistake earlier.

Same unless the white dragon is infinitely more amazing or black version has better exclusives. Then there's hacking for the black dragon :grin:

 

If it's like dragon/ice or something I'd be all over it.

It doesn't look very Ice type. It looks more like a Flying type. I'm thinking the black dragon is Dragon/Rock. It'd be pretty sweet.

 

The rumor going around is that it's dragon/electric because of what a voice actress said. I think she was talking about the black one (I think she says the name), but can't be asked checking again.

 

Yeah, the black one is rumored to be Dragon/Electric. And the names will probably be changed over anyway so I'm not going to bother learning the japanese ones :P

[re4p3r1]

Whoa whoa what? They're switching the colors? [bleep] that I'm getting White. My mistake earlier.

Same unless the white dragon is infinitely more amazing or black version has better exclusives. Then there's hacking for the black dragon :grin:

 

If it's like dragon/ice or something I'd be all over it.

It doesn't look very Ice type. It looks more like a Flying type. I'm thinking the black dragon is Dragon/Rock. It'd be pretty sweet.

 

The rumor going around is that it's dragon/electric because of what a voice actress said. I think she was talking about the black one (I think she says the name), but can't be asked checking again.

 

Yeah, the black one is rumored to be Dragon/Electric. And the names will probably be changed over anyway so I'm not going to bother learning the japanese ones :P

that would be soo epic, i'm getting which every one has the dragon/electric if its true. electric is my favorite type :thumbsup:

[PoorLepRecon]

Whichever version has the black dragon is the one I want.

[Maxingmck]

How should i powerlevel my level 60s to beat red

[anonymous1234]

How should i powerlevel my level 60s to beat red

Hold a lucky egg, and rematch Gym leaders or grind on Mount Silver.

[Zaaps1]

Level 60s should do fine against Red, if I remember correctly from the original games.

[re4p3r1]

i beat red with my monotype electric team and the highest was my lvl 52 electabuzz

[Kill_Life]

Playing SoulSilver and I need ideas for pokemon for my team.

 

So far, I have two pokemon: Scizor and Dragonite.

I'm looking for ideas. The fun ones I came up with all have too many weaknesses imo.

[Maxingmck]

Go infernape - Scizor - Dnite like I did

[Demoli]

So, aparently Salamence is being considered for the Uber department.. all i can say is THANK GOD!

 

OU without latias and mence is just soo muc better, and we can get rid of those ice attacks too!

 

SAtalls are getting mroe common though.

[Zaaps1]

SAtall? Stall?

 

Salamence is not ubers material imo. Sweeper-wise, it's actually pretty fragile. There's quite a lot that can net a OHKO, Bullet Punch off Scizor, for example. When the #1 Pokemon in the tier is your counter, I hardly think you should be an uber. MixMence, while strong, has a lot of good counters if predicted against correctly.

[Alg]

Salamence isn't as unbalanced as Latias.

[Orpheus]

SAtall? Stall?

 

Salamence is not ubers material imo. Sweeper-wise, it's actually pretty fragile. There's quite a lot that can net a OHKO, Bullet Punch off Scizor, for example. When the #1 Pokemon in the tier is your counter, I hardly think you should be an uber. MixMence, while strong, has a lot of good counters if predicted against correctly.

 

I'm going to raise three points here that could argue him for Uber status.

 

1. "Salamence's ability to run many versatile yet equally as effective sets makes it one of the most difficult pokes to switch into in an OU environment."

 

This trait immediately separates him from almost every other OU poke. Upon seeing him, you really can't make a solid guess as to what set it's running. It could be running DD, Mixed, Mixed DD, Scarf, Specs, Band, Physically Bulky, Wish, Specially Bulky, etc. If you switch in the wrong counter, it will probably die. No other poke can pose this kind of threat immediately. Sure, for Lucario, it could run HP Ice to try and catch Gliscor on the switch, or could run a set like Swords Dance / Close Combat / HP Ice / Crunch to beat it's counters, but any good player can see the problems with that set. Scizor might be able to revenge the DD set, for instance, but if it has any form of physical bulk, it can set up on Scizor then sweep you clean. Same applies with switching in Blissey to take a Draco Meteor, but it just boosted with Dragon Dance, and can probably OHKO Blissey right then and there. Salamence's power basically forces teams to run at least one Steel, and that's consistent, since Steel is the only type that walls Dragon. If someone sent out Salamence early, and you haven't revealed a Steel-type yet, they could predict it easily, since they could almost expect you to send in a Steel-type to figure out what set it's running. Let's not forget that Salamence only needs to run Fire Blast and Earthquake to handle what walls Dragon-type attacks, like Bronzong, Skarmory, Heatran, etc. There is no other poke that can pose that kind of threat.

 

2. "Outright beating Salamence requires, for the most part, a Scarf user with a Base Speed higher than 100 or a Priority move."

 

This argument is mainly geared towards the DD set, as it's the only one you absolutely cannot beat without outspeeding it bar locking it into Outrage and revenging, although that destroys the concept of a counter right there. Most offensive teams did use faster Choice Scarf or Priority users, like Scizor, (previously) Latias, and Starmie. The problem with this is that two pokes can remove all three (now two) of them from the game: Magnezone, for trapping and slaying Scizor, and the now-popular Scarf Tyranitar set, which ate Latias and Starmie for breakfast. If you wanted to completely beat Salamence, you'd have to consider every set it runs and run a check to each, which places a very nasty restriction on how your team can be built. This is just unhealthy for the metagame IMO. Sure, you can argue that Scizor has uses outside of revenging Salamence, and it does, but should someone be forced to run something like Scizor JUST because of this factor? For stall teams, after talking to some of the better stall users, most rely on residual damage and locking it into Outrage to KO/phaze it out. Most have said it takes perfect prediction to handle it if in the hands of a good player. An example: Let's suppose that Salamence switches into Skarmory to nab a free Dragon Dance (unknown to the stall player). Salamence could also just cook Skarmory for breakfast with Fire Blast, so usually it's forced to switch. Now Salamence has +1 under his belt, and if the stall user swapped in something other than Swampert, they run the risk of mispredicting. They'd probably switch back to Skarmory to take the Outrage, but it just Danced again. There is no other poke in OU that requires remotely this much precautions.

 

3. The "residual damage" argument: why it's not a reliable way to check Salamence."

 

Before I go indepth here, we can all agree that Stealth Rock is a common battle condition, which is consistent. A player carrying Salamence could easily run a way to prevent or eliminate SR. Teams also place so much emphasis of getting rocks down in the first turn of a match that it isn't difficult to get rid of later unless they run Rotom or another ghost, although any Pursuit user ends that argument right then and there almost. No one can be sure if the opponent is using Salamence or not, so why would they add extra team focus in deciding whether to keep SR up or not? And to add on to this, no team should be FORCED to run a ghost just to prevent SR from getting removed. Sure, you can argue that SR has uses other than Salamence, but for the sake of the argument, that's irrelevant.

 

A lot of people also assume that SR is an end all, be all check to Salamence, but that's further from the truth. Someone on this thread enlighten me here, but how is SR stopping Salamence from coming in and firing Draco Meteors or setting up with Dragon Dance? The same applies here to Sandstorm or any other form of residual damage, it's not stopping him from putting holes in teams before being killed. And any arguments for this are negated immediately if Salamence runs Roost. Sure, Salamence runs the risk of getting hit while Roosting, but I could just as easily argue it should Roost when the opponent switches.

 

Long story short, I don't see why or how it's SR weakness is stopping it from setting up or putting holes in a team (You're still going to lose a poke more often that not if you mispredict), some even carry Roost, and removing SR isn't that difficult in today's metagame anyways. One could argue that getting SR back up is easy, but most teams won't have SR outside of the lead position, and with the advent of suicide leads, it's easy to see the problem. And as an addendum, one could argue to carry SR outside of the lead position on something like Swampert, but personal battle experience has shown me it's a lot more difficult to get SR up outside of the lead position because the offensive nature of the metagame won't give you many chances to do so. Most teams also probably don't have a way of blocking Rapid Spin anyways.

 

How does this affect the metagame? It's quite simple. SR is so vital that most teams try to get it up on the first turn, only to get screwed over by a Rapid Spin later. It also restricts team options to using leads like Azelf and Metagross. They're very feasible and decent leads in their own right, but why should a team be forced to try getting SR up?

--

I'd like to make one last point clear: I don't think one trait alone would make him a target for a suspect test, but a combination of all three traits I presented. If you analyze how adverse of an effect it has on the metagame, and the fact that one poke can necessitate such dire preparations for it in both the team building and battling aspects of OU, you really have to question whether or not Salamence should be allowed to stay in the tier or not. Thus, Salamence should be tested.

 

That is all.

[Zaaps1]

SAtall? Stall?

 

Salamence is not ubers material imo. Sweeper-wise, it's actually pretty fragile. There's quite a lot that can net a OHKO, Bullet Punch off Scizor, for example. When the #1 Pokemon in the tier is your counter, I hardly think you should be an uber. MixMence, while strong, has a lot of good counters if predicted against correctly.

 

I'm going to raise three points here that could argue him for Uber status.

 

1. "Salamence's ability to run many versatile yet equally as effective sets makes it one of the most difficult pokes to switch into in an OU environment."

 

This trait immediately separates him from almost every other OU poke. Upon seeing him, you really can't make a solid guess as to what set it's running. It could be running DD, Mixed, Mixed DD, Scarf, Specs, Band, Physically Bulky, Wish, Specially Bulky, etc. If you switch in the wrong counter, it will probably die. No other poke can pose this kind of threat immediately. Sure, for Lucario, it could run HP Ice to try and catch Gliscor on the switch, or could run a set like Swords Dance / Close Combat / HP Ice / Crunch to beat it's counters, but any good player can see the problems with that set. Scizor might be able to revenge the DD set, for instance, but if it has any form of physical bulk, it can set up on Scizor then sweep you clean. Same applies with switching in Blissey to take a Draco Meteor, but it just boosted with Dragon Dance, and can probably OHKO Blissey right then and there. Salamence's power basically forces teams to run at least one Steel, and that's consistent, since Steel is the only type that walls Dragon. If someone sent out Salamence early, and you haven't revealed a Steel-type yet, they could predict it easily, since they could almost expect you to send in a Steel-type to figure out what set it's running. Let's not forget that Salamence only needs to run Fire Blast and Earthquake to handle what walls Dragon-type attacks, like Bronzong, Skarmory, Heatran, etc. There is no other poke that can pose that kind of threat.

 

And Infernape? Jolteon? Gyarados? Jirachi? Rotoms? All of them are extremely versatile and require some sort of check, and are all popular as well. Not AS popular as Salamence, yes, but still very high in usage.

 

And so say nothing can safely switch into Salamence is an exaggeration, and as I said before, it's actually fairly frail. It dies easy to it's own recoil, Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, etc. Bronzong can take it fairly easily, and Scarfed Heatran can KO it if you switch it in on a good prediction. Mence of any breed absolutely dies to Scizor. Flygon, as well, can take down Salamence with little difficulty. Of course, if it DDs, it becomes a different situation, but if it does DD, bulky attackers like Hippo and Tyranitar shouldn't have too much trouble.

 

Porygon2 can also deal with Salamence pretty well, lowering its attack and OHKO with Ice Beam.

 

Plus, remember that Salamence that run Naive nature are highly suspectable to special attacks.

 

2. "Outright beating Salamence requires, for the most part, a Scarf user with a Base Speed higher than 100 or a Priority move."

 

This argument is mainly geared towards the DD set, as it's the only one you absolutely cannot beat without outspeeding it bar locking it into Outrage and revenging, although that destroys the concept of a counter right there. Most offensive teams did use faster Choice Scarf or Priority users, like Scizor, (previously) Latias, and Starmie. The problem with this is that two pokes can remove all three (now two) of them from the game: Magnezone, for trapping and slaying Scizor, and the now-popular Scarf Tyranitar set, which ate Latias and Starmie for breakfast. If you wanted to completely beat Salamence, you'd have to consider every set it runs and run a check to each, which places a very nasty restriction on how your team can be built. This is just unhealthy for the metagame IMO. Sure, you can argue that Scizor has uses outside of revenging Salamence, and it does, but should someone be forced to run something like Scizor JUST because of this factor? For stall teams, after talking to some of the better stall users, most rely on residual damage and locking it into Outrage to KO/phaze it out. Most have said it takes perfect prediction to handle it if in the hands of a good player. An example: Let's suppose that Salamence switches into Skarmory to nab a free Dragon Dance (unknown to the stall player). Salamence could also just cook Skarmory for breakfast with Fire Blast, so usually it's forced to switch. Now Salamence has +1 under his belt, and if the stall user swapped in something other than Swampert, they run the risk of mispredicting. They'd probably switch back to Skarmory to take the Outrage, but it just Danced again. There is no other poke in OU that requires remotely this much precautions.

 

Yeah, I can't say very much. But what's the argument here? You need a revenge killer to take down a sweeper?

 

3. The "residual damage" argument: why it's not a reliable way to check Salamence."

 

Before I go indepth here, we can all agree that Stealth Rock is a common battle condition, which is consistent. A player carrying Salamence could easily run a way to prevent or eliminate SR. Teams also place so much emphasis of getting rocks down in the first turn of a match that it isn't difficult to get rid of later unless they run Rotom or another ghost, although any Pursuit user ends that argument right then and there almost. No one can be sure if the opponent is using Salamence or not, so why would they add extra team focus in deciding whether to keep SR up or not? And to add on to this, no team should be FORCED to run a ghost just to prevent SR from getting removed. Sure, you can argue that SR has uses other than Salamence, but for the sake of the argument, that's irrelevant.

 

I think it's a valid concern. Spin blockers shouldn't be necessary, however, this is all irrelevant because rapid spinners are rare, and teams that really focus on entry hazards ALWAYS have a Rotom or other ghost. Will-o-Wisp Rotom deals with most Pursuiters that don't have a Lum Berry or doesn't have the same ScarfTar.

 

A lot of people also assume that SR is an end all, be all check to Salamence, but that's further from the truth. Someone on this thread enlighten me here, but how is SR stopping Salamence from coming in and firing Draco Meteors or setting up with Dragon Dance? The same applies here to Sandstorm or any other form of residual damage, it's not stopping him from putting holes in teams before being killed. And any arguments for this are negated immediately if Salamence runs Roost. Sure, Salamence runs the risk of getting hit while Roosting, but I could just as easily argue it should Roost when the opponent switches.

 

Because 25% is a lot, and it allows many Pokemon to KO Salamence that couldn't before. After just two switches, he's down to 50, and sure, you can roost. But isn't that giving your opponent a free switch?

 

Long story short, I don't see why or how it's SR weakness is stopping it from setting up or putting holes in a team (You're still going to lose a poke more often that not if you mispredict), some even carry Roost, and removing SR isn't that difficult in today's metagame anyways. One could argue that getting SR back up is easy, but most teams won't have SR outside of the lead position, and with the advent of suicide leads, it's easy to see the problem. And as an addendum, one could argue to carry SR outside of the lead position on something like Swampert, but personal battle experience has shown me it's a lot more difficult to get SR up outside of the lead position because the offensive nature of the metagame won't give you many chances to do so. Most teams also probably don't have a way of blocking Rapid Spin anyways.

 

It doesn't STOP Salamence, it just LIMITS him.

 

How does this affect the metagame? It's quite simple. SR is so vital that most teams try to get it up on the first turn, only to get screwed over by a Rapid Spin later. It also restricts team options to using leads like Azelf and Metagross. They're very feasible and decent leads in their own right, but why should a team be forced to try getting SR up?

--

I'd like to make one last point clear: I don't think one trait alone would make him a target for a suspect test, but a combination of all three traits I presented. If you analyze how adverse of an effect it has on the metagame, and the fact that one poke can necessitate such dire preparations for it in both the team building and battling aspects of OU, you really have to question whether or not Salamence should be allowed to stay in the tier or not. Thus, Salamence should be tested.

 

That is all.

 

If you look at Garchomp, with amazing typing, high speed, and monstrous attack, as well as powerful Dual-STAB with nearly flawless coverage, it's uber, and even then wasn't uber by an overwealming majority. (I believe it vote was similar to Latias, ~60%). Salamence has none of that. Status conditions of any sort totally ruin it, and it is affected by Thunder Wave. Flying typing isn't very good for Salamence, making it weak to Rock (and neutral to Electric, as mentioned before). Salamence doesn't even have any Flying STAB attacks it can use outside of weak ones or Hidden Power. Garchomp, on the other hand, switches in on Electric attacks of all kinds, RESISTS Rock, and has Earthquake AND Outrage.

 

Salamence hardly measures up to Garchomp, and can hardly be Uber. Salamence really only is a threat to a team if that team is unprepared for it, in which case it's hardly Salamence's fault.

[Orpheus]

SAtall? Stall?

 

Salamence is not ubers material imo. Sweeper-wise, it's actually pretty fragile. There's quite a lot that can net a OHKO, Bullet Punch off Scizor, for example. When the #1 Pokemon in the tier is your counter, I hardly think you should be an uber. MixMence, while strong, has a lot of good counters if predicted against correctly.

 

I'm going to raise three points here that could argue him for Uber status.

 

1. "Salamence's ability to run many versatile yet equally as effective sets makes it one of the most difficult pokes to switch into in an OU environment."

 

This trait immediately separates him from almost every other OU poke. Upon seeing him, you really can't make a solid guess as to what set it's running. It could be running DD, Mixed, Mixed DD, Scarf, Specs, Band, Physically Bulky, Wish, Specially Bulky, etc. If you switch in the wrong counter, it will probably die. No other poke can pose this kind of threat immediately. Sure, for Lucario, it could run HP Ice to try and catch Gliscor on the switch, or could run a set like Swords Dance / Close Combat / HP Ice / Crunch to beat it's counters, but any good player can see the problems with that set. Scizor might be able to revenge the DD set, for instance, but if it has any form of physical bulk, it can set up on Scizor then sweep you clean. Same applies with switching in Blissey to take a Draco Meteor, but it just boosted with Dragon Dance, and can probably OHKO Blissey right then and there. Salamence's power basically forces teams to run at least one Steel, and that's consistent, since Steel is the only type that walls Dragon. If someone sent out Salamence early, and you haven't revealed a Steel-type yet, they could predict it easily, since they could almost expect you to send in a Steel-type to figure out what set it's running. Let's not forget that Salamence only needs to run Fire Blast and Earthquake to handle what walls Dragon-type attacks, like Bronzong, Skarmory, Heatran, etc. There is no other poke that can pose that kind of threat.

 

And Infernape? Jolteon? Gyarados? Jirachi? Rotoms? All of them are extremely versatile and require some sort of check, and are all popular as well. Not AS popular as Salamence, yes, but still very high in usage. (Funny thing, those guys have 100% counters in most cases. Salamence has individual set counters, but doesn't have any across-the-board counters like Infernape or Gyarados.)

 

And so say nothing can safely switch into Salamence is an exaggeration, and as I said before, it's actually fairly frail. It dies easy to it's own recoil, Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, etc. Bronzong can take it fairly easily, and Scarfed Heatran can KO it if you switch it in on a good prediction. Mence of any breed absolutely dies to Scizor. ([cabbage]. A physically bulky variant can set up on the band variants easily, which are overwhelmingly common compared to his other sets) Flygon, as well, can take down Salamence with little difficulty. Of course, if it DDs, it becomes a different situation, but if it does DD, bulky attackers like Hippo and Tyranitar shouldn't have too much trouble.

 

Porygon2 can also deal with Salamence pretty well, lowering its attack and OHKO with Ice Beam. (PORYGON2 DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO SURVIVE A DRACO METEOR UNLESS SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT IS APPLIED, WHERE SOMETHING WILL KILL HIM NEXT TURN)

 

Plus, remember that Salamence that run Naive nature are highly suspectable to special attacks. (THAT FALLS INTO THE ARGUMENT OF REVENGING, AND NOT COUNTERING)

 

2. "Outright beating Salamence requires, for the most part, a Scarf user with a Base Speed higher than 100 or a Priority move."

 

This argument is mainly geared towards the DD set, as it's the only one you absolutely cannot beat without outspeeding it bar locking it into Outrage and revenging, although that destroys the concept of a counter right there. Most offensive teams did use faster Choice Scarf or Priority users, like Scizor, (previously) Latias, and Starmie. The problem with this is that two pokes can remove all three (now two) of them from the game: Magnezone, for trapping and slaying Scizor, and the now-popular Scarf Tyranitar set, which ate Latias and Starmie for breakfast. If you wanted to completely beat Salamence, you'd have to consider every set it runs and run a check to each, which places a very nasty restriction on how your team can be built. This is just unhealthy for the metagame IMO. Sure, you can argue that Scizor has uses outside of revenging Salamence, and it does, but should someone be forced to run something like Scizor JUST because of this factor? For stall teams, after talking to some of the better stall users, most rely on residual damage and locking it into Outrage to KO/phaze it out. Most have said it takes perfect prediction to handle it if in the hands of a good player. An example: Let's suppose that Salamence switches into Skarmory to nab a free Dragon Dance (unknown to the stall player). Salamence could also just cook Skarmory for breakfast with Fire Blast, so usually it's forced to switch. Now Salamence has +1 under his belt, and if the stall user swapped in something other than Swampert, they run the risk of mispredicting. They'd probably switch back to Skarmory to take the Outrage, but it just Danced again. There is no other poke in OU that requires remotely this much precautions.

 

Yeah, I can't say very much. But what's the argument here? You need a revenge killer to take down a sweeper? (No, that Salamence has no reliable counters in 100% of cases like other sweepers)

 

3. The "residual damage" argument: why it's not a reliable way to check Salamence."

 

Before I go indepth here, we can all agree that Stealth Rock is a common battle condition, which is consistent. A player carrying Salamence could easily run a way to prevent or eliminate SR. Teams also place so much emphasis of getting rocks down in the first turn of a match that it isn't difficult to get rid of later unless they run Rotom or another ghost, although any Pursuit user ends that argument right then and there almost. No one can be sure if the opponent is using Salamence or not, so why would they add extra team focus in deciding whether to keep SR up or not? And to add on to this, no team should be FORCED to run a ghost just to prevent SR from getting removed. Sure, you can argue that SR has uses other than Salamence, but for the sake of the argument, that's irrelevant.

 

I think it's a valid concern. Spin blockers shouldn't be necessary, however, this is all irrelevant because rapid spinners are rare, and teams that really focus on entry hazards ALWAYS have a Rotom or other ghost. Will-o-Wisp Rotom deals with most Pursuiters that don't have a Lum Berry or doesn't have the same ScarfTar.

 

A lot of people also assume that SR is an end all, be all check to Salamence, but that's further from the truth. Someone on this thread enlighten me here, but how is SR stopping Salamence from coming in and firing Draco Meteors or setting up with Dragon Dance? The same applies here to Sandstorm or any other form of residual damage, it's not stopping him from putting holes in teams before being killed. And any arguments for this are negated immediately if Salamence runs Roost. Sure, Salamence runs the risk of getting hit while Roosting, but I could just as easily argue it should Roost when the opponent switches.

 

Because 25% is a lot, and it allows many Pokemon to KO Salamence that couldn't before. After just two switches, he's down to 50, and sure, you can roost. But isn't that giving your opponent a free switch? (Salamence is decidedly average in terms of bulk, and doesn't plan on surviving for extremely long. He only needs a turn or two to start leaving holes in teams.)

 

Long story short, I don't see why or how it's SR weakness is stopping it from setting up or putting holes in a team (You're still going to lose a poke more often that not if you mispredict), some even carry Roost, and removing SR isn't that difficult in today's metagame anyways. One could argue that getting SR back up is easy, but most teams won't have SR outside of the lead position, and with the advent of suicide leads, it's easy to see the problem. And as an addendum, one could argue to carry SR outside of the lead position on something like Swampert, but personal battle experience has shown me it's a lot more difficult to get SR up outside of the lead position because the offensive nature of the metagame won't give you many chances to do so. Most teams also probably don't have a way of blocking Rapid Spin anyways.

 

It doesn't STOP Salamence, it just LIMITS him. (Still isn't stopping him from doing his job.)

 

How does this affect the metagame? It's quite simple. SR is so vital that most teams try to get it up on the first turn, only to get screwed over by a Rapid Spin later. It also restricts team options to using leads like Azelf and Metagross. They're very feasible and decent leads in their own right, but why should a team be forced to try getting SR up?

--

I'd like to make one last point clear: I don't think one trait alone would make him a target for a suspect test, but a combination of all three traits I presented. If you analyze how adverse of an effect it has on the metagame, and the fact that one poke can necessitate such dire preparations for it in both the team building and battling aspects of OU, you really have to question whether or not Salamence should be allowed to stay in the tier or not. Thus, Salamence should be tested.

 

That is all.

 

If you look at Garchomp, with amazing typing, high speed, and monstrous attack, as well as powerful Dual-STAB with nearly flawless coverage, it's uber, and even then wasn't uber by an overwealming majority. (I believe it vote was similar to Latias, ~60%). Salamence has none of that. Status conditions of any sort totally ruin it, and it is affected by Thunder Wave. Flying typing isn't very good for Salamence, making it weak to Rock (and neutral to Electric, as mentioned before). Salamence doesn't even have any Flying STAB attacks it can use outside of weak ones or Hidden Power. Garchomp, on the other hand, switches in on Electric attacks of all kinds, RESISTS Rock, and has Earthquake AND Outrage.

 

Salamence hardly measures up to Garchomp, and can hardly be Uber. Salamence really only is a threat to a team if that team is unprepared for it, in which case it's hardly Salamence's fault.

 

You're comparing Garchomp to Salamence. Garchomp could actually set up on his counters reliably and KO at least one poke before going down(Hint: He actually had solid counters). His trolly 102 Base Speed guaranteed that he didn't need much investment in Speed to do his job. And he was so ridiculous that most teams became Garchomp Garchomp-counter, Garchomp-counter-counter, etc. Salamence is just absurd anyways now that he lost one of his better checks. Yache Berry ensured he could guarantee one kill a game.

 

I'll just sum my arguments up in one sentence: Salamence has no solid counters (this means not relying on revenging, but being able to switch in with little risk to itself and pose immediate threat to that poke, which no pokes can say that with 100% certainty in terms of Salamence, compared to say, Lucario and Gliscor.) and is very difficult to manage until you learn the set it's running. Sure Porygon2 can stop the DD set cold, but he can't survive a Draco Meteor. And sure Bronzong can go toe-to-toe with Salamence somewhat, but by running Levitate, he risks a 2HKO from Fire Blast (running Heatproof to catch some sweepers off guard? 2HKO at worst with or without boosted Earthquake.), whereas Bronzong can only do the same after SR with Gyro Ball. He can also explode, but that costs a poke. I used to use CB Scizor to check Salamence, then a physically defensive variant set up on it with Dragon Dance and Roost and swept my team clean, because I was not prepared for it at all. Hell, I even use Salamence and I can guarantee a KO or leave holes in a team for another sweeper to clean up almost every match.

 

Garchomp used to be fairly counterable by Vaporeon, Swampert, etc, until it started running Yache Berry and actually set up on it's counters or KO'd them. And Garchomp generally didn't run mixed sets, so it was fairly feasible to wall it physically before someone suggested running a Yache Berry. Everything you mentioned regarding killing Salamence, like scarftran, Tyranitar, etc. is a check. They can pose a threat once in, but can't make a 100% safe switch.) It's not like Lucario, who most expect it to be a SD variant, and can react accordingly. In terms of sweeping or wallbreaking, there's nothing that poses quite the threat that Salamence does. And the argument of usage, when you were referring to Infernape, Jolteon, etc, doesn't quite hold up. Scizor is more often used, and yet he's easy to manage. He has a lot of hard counters in Zapdos, Rotom, Magnezone, and Heatran as examples (although the latter two are reliable checks)

 

Long story short: There's nothing that's quite as murderous as Salamence in nature. One could argue that it keeps stall in check fairly well, but Salamence isn't needed to break stall either.

[Zaaps1]

Hmm, I'm much too tired to reply to each point there, sorry you had to type all that out. :(

 

I still see nothing wrong with Salamence. Yes, ok, it has no 100% counters. But then again, I don't really see it taking down a team all by itself. In most competitive games I play, it's a very short-but-sweet/sweep (:P) time-bomb. It makes a difference, yes, but it's not like anything else couldn't. Salamence's playstyle is Heavy-Offense-esque. It's not really a bulky Pokemon that sticks around. By design, Salamence comes in, has fun, then crashes. It's no Blissey or Skarmory.

 

Yeah, DDMence can take care of almost everything. But that's pretty much what a Dragon Dance sweeper is. Just look at Tyranitar or Gyarados.

 

Plus, do not forget that Salamence can neither switch moves nor switch out once locked into Outrage. What I would do is send in Outrage bait (Kingdra, Flygon, Swampert, etc) then switch to a steel who could either set up or easily take out Salamence. Take my Heatran in my team I posted. When a Salamence rages, I switch in Heatran, set up rocks, then explode. Free Stealth Rock for me, and his Salamence is dead and gone. SD + Roost Scizor functions well in this role too.

[Orpheus]

Hmm, I'm much too tired to reply to each point there, sorry you had to type all that out. :(

 

I still see nothing wrong with Salamence. Yes, ok, it has no 100% counters. But then again, I don't really see it taking down a team all by itself. In most competitive games I play, it's a very short-but-sweet/sweep (:P) time-bomb. It makes a difference, yes, but it's not like anything else couldn't. Salamence's playstyle is Heavy-Offense-esque. It's not really a bulky Pokemon that sticks around. By design, Salamence comes in, has fun, then crashes. It's no Blissey or Skarmory.

 

Yeah, DDMence can take care of almost everything. But that's pretty much what a Dragon Dance sweeper is. Just look at Tyranitar or Gyarados.

 

Plus, do not forget that Salamence can neither switch moves nor switch out once locked into Outrage. What I would do is send in Outrage bait (Kingdra, Flygon, Swampert, etc) then switch to a steel who could either set up or easily take out Salamence. Take my Heatran in my team I posted. When a Salamence rages, I switch in Heatran, set up rocks, then explode. Free Stealth Rock for me, and his Salamence is dead and gone.

 

As one last point I want to make, I personally don't sweep entire teams with it, but the holes he leaves generally are bad enough to where something else like Gyarados, Lucario, etc. could come in and clean up. I'm just a bit on-the-fence regarding him being Uber, because I haven't played against mence much with stall teams to form a solid opinion regarding the stall side. That last statement regarding baiting out Outrage generally falls into prediction, which is just more risky when mence first comes out is all.

[Zaaps1]

Stall teams typically have status and phazing. Status will ruin any Salamence, phazing will ruin non-boosting ones. After all, all Blissy has to do is survive 1 attack to paralyze it.

[Maxingmck]

Zaaps

 

Which Pokemon would make a best party

 

Clericnite

Infernape

Scizor

Garchomp

Bellyzard

Ninjask

Lucario

Starmie

TTar

Magmortar

Guardevior/Gallade