You're generalizing all monogamous relationships as if we're in the dark ages. I know plenty of couples who have been married 20+ years, equally and happily.

If you think marriage sounds like a fantastic idea right now and you can "make it work," then be my guest :P

You're making it sound like any marriage in today's day and age will end up in divorce. Not sure if that's what you are in fact saying, but that's the way you're making it sound.

Not necessarily divorce, just less happiness/freedom in your life and more drama/boredom

I intend to do exactly that. I won't deny that marriage is, in some ways, harder than it used to be, but that doesn't make it not worthwhile.

Out of curiosity-- and this is directed at everybody in this thread-- how many of you hadn't considered any of this before I started posting about it? How many of you thought that long-term traditional monogamy was a great idea and the people who can't "make it work" are just immature and/or uncommitted? How many of you had no idea that there were actually alternatives to traditional monogamy that can still satisfy all of the same needs and make you happy?

 

Most people are told their whole lives that "success" is: go to college, get a job, get married, settle down, have kids, retire. Except success is subjective. While that "path" may have worked for your parents and grandparents, the times have changed since then. Similarly, if you actually do want to follow a process like that, why do you want to follow a process like that? What do you want from it? Is this the only way to get it? Do you only want it because you've been told to want it? These are the kinds of things you need to be asking yourselves, because the path to success is different for everybody. I know a lot of intelligent, mature, hardworking people who have a full-time job, a spouse, and kids, and as a result they're miserable and they don't know why.

 

I really don't care if anybody here agrees or disagrees with what I have to say here. I just want you to understand and consider what you're really getting yourself into before you pursue things like long-term monogamy, because most people don't.

I've thought about it a lot, in fact...and have decided that being polyamorous is the worst of the three possibilities as I see it.

 

I have another question for you. You state that being polyamorous allows you to give in to your "natural" feelings of sexual attraction for multiple partners. Assuming, of course, that those partners do the same as you and take on multiple partners themselves, how to cope with the natural feelings of jealousy that arise when that happens?

Funny you should ask that-- another regular poster on this thread actually PM'd me the same question this morning. Just gonna copy and paste my response:

 

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Jealousy's always going to be there-- it's just part of our obsolete biology. Best thing you can do is just take a deep breath, relax, remind yourself that it's just chemicals in your obsolete brain talking, tell them to shut up, and move on with your life. :)

 

Things that can affect the degree to how jealous you feel are:

• Self-esteem: If you have really high self-esteem and genuinely believe that a girl is "missing out" by choosing someone else over you; as opposed to feeling inferior to other men
  
• Sex perception: If you think sex is just sex and remove all of the ridiculous implications that religion and society have attached to it; as opposed to believing sex and love are the same thing
  
• Exciting Life: If you've got bigger fish to fry such as a huge goal/mission/hobby that you passionately enjoy; as opposed to having a boring life
  
• Abundance: If you have many more alternative sources of social/sexual interaction to keep you "busy" and happy; as opposed to only having one girl as a source of emotional and sexual fulfillment/satisfaction
  
• Meditation: If you can accept things for how they actually are (women being women; your brain being obsolete), even if it is unpleasant to do so, and regardless of your own biases; as opposed to getting caught up in your emotions and clinging to Disney fantasies
  

But to answer your question, yes I remember struggling with jealousy for a few weeks about a year ago when I developed unreciprocated feelings for a long-time platonic friend. But the jealousy went away pretty fast when I addressed the things listed above. If I hear of a girl I care about doing things with another guy, it might sting for a minute or two, but after putting things in perspective it'll quit bothering me and I'll move on... It's hard to feel jealous for very long if you've got all your bases covered.

 

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I think one of the reasons why people dismiss poly is because of the jealousy issue; they think that since poly is "flawed" in that way, then they shouldn't bother trying it. But monogamy is flawed as well-- even more than poly is. However people would rather stick with their terribly-flawed monogamous lifestyle, than switch to the less-flawed poly lifestyle. They'd only switch to poly if it was flawless. But sadly, no such arrangement exists. So they'll stick with monogamy, even though there's a better alternative.

So if that "obsolete biology" can be dismissed so easily, why can't the obsolete biology of being sexually attracted to multiple partners be dismissed just as easily?

I agree with most of what you said in your last two posts. Society has made monogamous relationships extremely hard, and they do often fail. Polyamorous relationships are also hard due to religious societal norms which is why they are not as commonly seen. However, if you want kids, it is easier to be in a mono relationship, but if you don't want a family and don't have an issue with sex with many partners, poly relationships might be a better option. In the end, it just boils down to what you want. You can still avoid this problem entirely by just abstaining from sex. >=D

So if that "obsolete biology" can be dismissed so easily, why can't the obsolete biology of being sexually attracted to multiple partners be dismissed just as easily?

 

Good question!

 

First of all, jealousy and attraction are completely different emotions.

 

Secondly, jealousy is detrimental to my long-term happiness. So I structure my life in such a way that the effects of jealousy are minimal.

 

When it comes to attraction, it's up for debate as to whether or not it's beneficial to your long-term happiness-- I think it mostly depends on context. For example, I personally think it's a good thing because there aren't really any negative consequences for feeling attraction. However, if I was in a monogamous relationship, then I could no longer say that. I discussed this earlier right here.

 

Basically when it comes to our obsolete caveman brains, I do my best to structure my life such that I can maximize the good parts and minimize the shitty parts :) If feeling attraction towards other people is going to cause problems for you, then it's your job to figure out how to deal with that.

 

Good question!

 

First of all, jealousy and attraction are completely different emotions.

 

Sure, but in this instance they're both antiques of our evolutionary need to reproduce.

 

 

Secondly, jealousy is detrimental to my long-term happiness. So I structure my life in such a way that the effects of jealousy are minimal.

 

But what I'm saying is that by being polyamorous you're doing the opposite: structuring your life in such a way that you're more likely to feel jealousy, not less.

 

 

But what I'm saying is that by being polyamorous you're doing the opposite: structuring your life in such a way that you're more likely to feel jealousy, not less.

 

Yes, by being poly I'm more "susceptible" to jealousy. However, by structuring my life in the ways mentioned a few posts back, jealousy's not really a concern for me.

 

Additionally, I'll gladly take jealousy in exchange for the perks of polyamory. A monogamous lifestyle, on the other hand, would require way too many sacrifices which would ultimately be detrimental to my long-term happiness.

 

Also keep in mind that being monogamous doesn't make you immune to jealousy either :P

I've avoided the poly/mono debate for a while now since it's fruitless to argue when every case is different. But I do want to say, to everyone, if people have a hard time already dealing with emotions, jelousy, and drama with mono relationships lasting anywhere from a week to a lifetime, I can't see people handling poly relationships very well neither.

 

Not to say one or the other is impossible, but keep in mind everybody humans are a very ... dumb species when it comes to handling emotions. Which is to say, I do admire Muggi's stress/teaching to handle your emotions, but I cant see poly relationships any more meaningful than single partners.

I had a strange revelation in my sociology class today that is sort of relevant to muggiw's points. I have an assignment that requires me to interview a couple that has lived together is [or was/planning to be] married, where both individuals have out-of-home careers. The idea is to look at gender roles and assignment of responsibility in the relationship, the home ownership, and the bread winning. Thinking about who I would interview I came to the conclusion that literally the only married couple that still lives together that each party has a career that I know personally is my own parents. I realize our economy is rough right now, and divorce rates/single parenthood is high but jesus. I never realized it, but I'm literally the only one of my friends that has that family structure. I had no idea it was so rare.

Yes, by being poly I'm more "susceptible" to jealousy. However, by structuring my life in the ways mentioned a few posts back, jealousy's not really a concern for me.

 

Additionally, I'll gladly take jealousy in exchange for the perks of polyamory. A monogamous lifestyle, on the other hand, would require way too many sacrifices which would ultimately be detrimental to my long-term happiness.

 

Also keep in mind that being monogamous doesn't make you immune to jealousy either :P

Seems like a hell of lot of effort on your part went into thinking this idea through, and maintaining it as a lifestyle. Which is ironic, because one of the reasons you cited before for all this is that with polyamorous relationships there's "less drama/boredom".

 

I think you've got this all the wrong way round. Societal norms aren't either "natural" or "unnatural". The rationale provided for them, perhaps, but the fact that millions and millions of people do the same thing is very much normal, and just because biology might imply otherwise doesn't change that. For most people, monogamous relationships are just what comes naturally, and so perhaps it's just easier for them to cope with a relationship on those terms.

 

You can argue all you want that polyamorous relationships are the way forward, or that they'll make you happier, surely people want to feel comfortable with what they find familiar as well. It's highly subjective and therefore personal to the individuals involved.

Seems like a hell of lot of effort on your part went into thinking this idea through, and maintaining it as a lifestyle. Which is ironic, because one of the reasons you cited before for all this is that with polyamorous relationships there's "less drama/boredom".

 

First: are you implying that it's a bad thing that a lot of thinking went into this on my part? Second: are you implying that a mature/healthy mono relationship doesn't require a lot of effort? Third: what does less drama and boredom have to do with structuring your life in a way to maintain happiness? A wise "work ethic" to me is putting in A LOT of hard work becorehand, and then reaping the benefits afterwards with minimal effort and maintenance; as opposed to the people who put in slightly less work than you-- constantly-- for the rest of their lives because they didn't "max out" their efforts enough to "retire" afterwards. (hope that part makes sense to you. Let me know if you need more clarification)

 

I think you've got this all the wrong way round. Societal norms aren't either "natural" or "unnatural". The rationale provided for them, perhaps, but the fact that millions and millions of people do the same thing is very much normal, and just because biology might imply otherwise doesn't change that. For most people, monogamous relationships are just what comes naturally, and so perhaps it's just easier for them to cope with a relationship on those terms.

I'm replying on my phone right now so I can't provide links for these fallacies, but just because "millions and millions of people" choose monogamy doesn't mean that monogamy is a good idea. Additionally, nature vs. nurture is more or less 50/50. So even if society supports monogamy in every aspect (which it DEFINITELY doesn't do anymore), that's still only HALF pf the equation. As I've said before, monogamy is unnatural within the context of the human species. Within the context of society, sure it's "natural," but that's irrelevant here.

 

And yes, I don't mind people choosing monogamy as a strategy to "cope" with whatever issues are at hand. However, I expect those people to have chosen monogamy after a well-thought-out decision-making process which required them to weigh all of their options. If they STILL insist on monogamy after all that research (like Obfuscator does), then I wish them the best and hope it works out for them. At the same time, however, they don't deserve any sympathy if it all falls apart on them because they knew what they were getting themselves in to.

 

You can argue all you want that polyamorous relationships are the way forward, or that they'll make you happier, surely people want to feel comfortable with what they find familiar as well. It's highly subjective and therefore personal to the individuals involved.

 

Yes, personal tastes are SUBJECTIVE. But divorce statistics are OBJECTIVE, and those are the points I use to support my arguments.

Double

So you think that by chosing to be polyamorous you won't need to put work into your relationships?

 

Sorry to break it to you, but the only retirement to be found where relationships are concerned is to have none at all.

 

I'll also add that it's quite convenient to use divorce statistics to support your argument when no such similar stats exist for the failure rate of polyamorous relationships.

So you think that by chosing to be polyamorous you won't need to put work into your relationships?

 

I'm saying once you dedicate a lot of time to getting your shit together, then poly maintenance will be a lot more "automated" than mono maintenance would be.

 

Sorry to break it to you, but the only retirement to be found where relationships are concerned is to have none at all.

 

Yup.

 

I'll also add that it's quite convenient to use divorce statistics to support your argument when no such similar stats exist for the failure rate of polyamorous relationships.

 

That's because poly people generally understand that no relationship lasts forever. But to be monogamous and to have the same belief would probably be detrimental to your relationship.

I'm saying once you dedicate a lot of time to getting your shit together, then poly maintenance will be a lot more "automated" than mono maintenance would be.

 

Just curious, but have you ever actually been in a somewhat long term polyamorous relationship? And by that I mean actively "dating" multiple people, however you define dating...

 

That's because poly people generally understand that no relationship lasts forever. But to be monogamous and to have the same belief would probably be detrimental to your relationship.

 

No, actually it's because it's difficult to keep official statistics on something that's largely unofficial...seeing as polyamorous people don't get married.

 

Why can't relationships last forever? You will likely maintain a close relationship with family members for your/their entire lives, and you may also have lifelong friends. Why is it so inconveivable that a spousal relationship can also be lifelong?

I was also wondering about the content of any one of your relationships, Muggi, especially once you mentioned jealousy, which seems eminently mono.

 

Also, Obfuscator, you know the only way to find out if it works out or not is to try it right? I'm not saying this debate should end, but arguing to figure out whether poly is for you with such a small pool of examples will probably get you nowhere near the truth.

At the moment, as far as I can tell polyamory isn't what I want; monogamy is. However, if monogamy doesn't work out, then I'll try something else..

I'm saying once you dedicate a lot of time to getting your shit together, then poly maintenance will be a lot more "automated" than mono maintenance would be.

 

Just curious, but have you ever actually been in a somewhat long term polyamorous relationship? And by that I mean actively "dating" multiple people, however you define dating...

 

Well the way it works is-- after dating for several months or so, the girl will probably find someone else, and start dating him exclusively. And I'll wish her the best. But the funny thing is-- several months into that relationship, the girl will return to me and the "cycle" will restart :P

 

Honestly I can't really give you a good answer on that one since I moved to a new city at the beginning of the summer, so I'm in the process of "starting over." Hence, the experimentation with online dating. I'm relatively sure girls will keep "returning" to me for a very long time, as long as I keep doing what I've been doing.

 

I'll try keeping track of my poly stuff once I can get the ball rolling after cracking the code to online dating lol

 

Also keep in mind, like I said before, there are different "degrees" of poly. From strictly one night stands, to friends with benefits only, to having a serious girlfriend without promising exclusivity.

 

That's because poly people generally understand that no relationship lasts forever. But to be monogamous and to have the same belief would probably be detrimental to your relationship.

 

No, actually it's because it's difficult to keep official statistics on something that's largely unofficial...seeing as polyamorous people don't get married.

 

So what statistics are you interested in tracking, then? Let me know and I'll try and keep a record of my own in the future.

 

There's a few guys out there who've been keeping track of all of their poly "stats," and basically a poly "relationship" will last anywhere from a few months to a few years, and then the girl will "move on" to another guy, and then 90% of the time she'll return back to the poly guy to start a "new" relationship.

 

Why can't relationships last forever? You will likely maintain a close relationship with family members for your/their entire lives, and you may also have lifelong friends. Why is it so inconveivable that a spousal relationship can also be lifelong?

 

Ties with platonic friends and family don't involve romantic love or sex.

 

 

Also, out of curiosity, why do you want monogamy still? Is a lot of it coming from your belief that it's more "worthwhile" since it's more difficult and "consistently" long-term? And, (I'll understand if you don't want to answer this) why did you and your girlfriend break up after 5ish years?

 

So what statistics are you interested in tracking, then? Let me know and I'll try and keep a record of my own in the future.

 

There's a few guys out there who've been keeping track of all of their poly "stats," and basically a poly "relationship" will last anywhere from a few months to a few years, and then the girl will "move on" to another guy, and then 90% of the time she'll return back to the poly guy to start a "new" relationship.

 

Well, the success rate of polyamorous relationships....of course that's difficult to qualify because it's not always about long term commitment.

 

 

Ties with platonic friends and family don't involve romantic love or sex.

 

So sex ruins relationships?

 

Also, out of curiosity, why do you want monogamy still? Is a lot of it coming from your belief that it's more "worthwhile" since it's more difficult and "consistently" long-term? And, (I'll understand if you don't want to answer this) why did you and your girlfriend break up after 5ish years?

 

I want to be monogamous for several reasons.

 

Firstly, I don't believe sex will make me happy. It never did before and I don't see why it will in the future. As a result, I'm not concerned with sleeping around or being "polyamorous" because having sex with one person will be more than enough for me.

 

Secondly, I want to have kids. I believe the benefits of children living in a traditional family are enormous - studying statistics from jail membership to high school graduation make it plainly obvious that children with a present mother and father are much more likely to be stable, successful adults and enjoy stable, successful relationships of their own. This is either impossible or next to so in a polyamorous relationship as you've previously admitted.

 

This is simplified, but I broke up with my girlfriend because I agree with your opinion that monogamy is extremely difficult. It took me a long time to realize, but I decided she was not someone who was capable of making me happy over a lifelong relationship. There are certain qualities I think someone who wants to have a successful marriage should possess, and, in short, I realized she didn't possess them.