Russia+S Ossetia+Abkhasia in a war against Georgia

[l0l0lpur32]

Found this video of an interview with the Georgian president:

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbXS9CNVotg

 

 

 

Why is the EU flag there?

[hohto]

According to the president of Georgia it's now a war and not a conflict. Thus I decided to remove the question mark from the title.

 

 

 

edit: If I didn't see wrong, Russia has started to bring T-90s to the warfield. Yesterday saw only oldish t-80s (newer than georgian tanks tho) being there. One reason could be that T-90s were located in 5th guards area near Mongolia and transporting them took few hours longer to come than for the T-80s that were right behind the boarder. I might have mistaken like I said, but so it seemed.

 

 

 

So far the russians have dragged up russian flags to the conquered areas, for example to the police station. This looks pretty much weird if they were fighting for the independence of South Ossetia like some were claiming.

 

 

 

Was pretty funny to watch Russia Today's english broadcast this morning. According to them the western media is black and white. If that's the case, then what's russian media? Totally black? Btw in the same broadcast Shaakasvili was called at least "the beast", "dog" and "parasite of Caucasus". Pretty rough text for even russian media...

[Ginger_Warrior]

Let's look at this simply:

 

 

 

• [*:3c9mgagp]They're not attacking the Georgian capital
   
  [*:3c9mgagp]Given the size of their army, they could frankly annex Georgia in a few weeks if they wanted to. They've sent 150 tanks and a few jets?

 

 

 

That strikes me as a country that's pulling their punches - threatening rather than actually doing, in order to bring as quickly as possible a solution to the table.

[BlueLancer]

Let's look at this simply:

 

 

 

• [*:1ua808ft]They're not attacking the Georgian capital
   
  [*:1ua808ft]Given the size of their army, they could frankly annex Georgia in a few weeks if they wanted to. They've sent 150 tanks and a few jets?

 

 

 

That strikes me as a country that's pulling their punches - threatening rather than actually doing, in order to bring as quickly as possible a solution to the table.

 

 

 

The point of conflict is South Ossetia and to slight degree Abhkhazia who both have declared themselves to be independent from Georgia.

 

 

 

I don't see what motivation Russia would have in attacking the Georgian capital, since they're only giving military support to S-Ossetia to fend off an attack. They don't have any intent of attacking Georgia itself. The attack was a complete surprise, because the Georgian army attacked S-Ossetia's capital at night just a few days ago.

 

 

 

S-Ossetia is only "de jure" a part of Georgia. In reality the ossetians despise georgians, speak russian, have russian passports, pay taxes to Russia, recieve pensions from Russia, use Russian roubles as currency, and have in general nothing to do with Georgia.

[hohto]

• [*:23f75924]They're not attacking the Georgian capital

 
 
 
Abkhasia just joined the front against Georgia. The russian goal at least in my eyes is not to control whole Georgia but to set into into same kind of proxy condition as USSR did for hungary or Poland for example. I'd also like to point out that the war is in the beginning and the bombings of Tbilisi may happen any day or hour.
 
 
 
edit: How ironic, I said days or hours and then few hours later this came up:
 
http://www.newstin.co.uk/tag/uk/73117669
 
 
 

[*:23f75924]Given the size of their army, they could frankly annex Georgia in a few weeks if they wanted to. They've sent 150 tanks and a few jets?

 

 

 

If I'm not mistaken, Russia has already sent more than those 150 t80s. Georgia's soil also isn't as good for tank battles as the deserts in the near east for example, not to mention that Georgia's tank forces are really limited and rather old. For example their best attackive tanks are t-72s which were made in 1970s. By raw power Russia is already a lot stronger than Georgia.

 

 

 

edit:

 

 

 

S-Ossetia is only "de jure" a part of Georgia. In reality the ossetians despise georgians, speak russian, have russian passports, pay taxes to Russia, recieve pensions from Russia, and have in general nothing to do with Georgia.

 

 

 

Russia has given the nationality with really loose standards to many south ossetians within last few months. This is just one way for them to "defend russians" like Medvedev was claiming.

[x1992x]

imo i believe that russia is going to anailate georgia :? but hopefully it gets solved quickly so that will be keine war :D

[magekillr]

Look. I'm not a Putin fan. At all. I'm not a fan of the direction Russia is going in general.

 

 

 

That being said, we need to stop doing this [developmentally delayed]ed 'RUSSIA BAD! HULK SMASH!' [cabbage] every time Russia is in the news. Several people have said it already, and I'll say it again - this has little to do with Russian aggression. Politicking and influence-peddling, perhaps. But the Georgians are definitely the oppressors on this one - that's why the North Ossetians, whose province is in Russia but who are much more recognized and respected by Moscow than South Ossetia is in Tbilisi, are so [bleep]ing eager to cross the border and help out. The two are historically inseparable, but happen to be divided by a border, one one side of which the Ossetian people are much better treated than on the other side.

[Perakp]

For few months it's been more or less clear to anyone who has paid any attention on Russia that they might attack against Georgia.

 

Who do you believe to have started the conflict? Some sources suggest Georgia started an ethnic cleansing before Russia came in, others that Russia's masterplan is/was to conquer the whole of Georgia.

 

How fast do you think the UN, USA, EU or NATO will come up with something real to force the parties to a ceasefire?

[Lenin64]

imo i believe that russia is going to anailate georgia :? but hopefully it gets solved quickly so that will be keine war :D

 

If they were going to, chances are it would have happened by now. And since they're not attacking the capital, chances are they don't care about destroying the country as a whole.

[hohto]

Who do you believe to have started the conflict? Some sources suggest Georgia started an ethnic cleansing before Russia came in, others that Russia's masterplan is/was to conquer the whole of Georgia.

 

 

 

There's no proof about any cleanings, genocides or who knows what. I've gone through multiple Russian (yea, like it would make any difference to read 10 russian pages instead of 1) and so far there's been no proof of it happening. For the second, Russia has been arming rebel groups in South Ossetia for months, they've had a few month practice right behind the boarder and their verbal thematic towards Georgia changed a lot around the same time Georgia had gotten into talks about NATO. Add that to the loose giving of passports and you got the picture: this war was planned months ago. Of course Russia is trying to justify the war with noble and loyal phrases, there's nothing abnormal in that.

 

 

 

How fast do you think the UN, USA, EU or NATO will come up with something real to force the parties to a ceasefire?

 

 

 

USA's forces won't jump into the fire. Georgia and under 5 million people aren't worth the war against Russia and Russia knows this really well. However at least McCain and Bush have already disagreed with Russia's policy. NATO won't do a thing: first of all Georgia isn't part of it and the risk of WW3 would be far too big. For UN and EU the only things they can do is to judge the war and try to solve it through diplomatics. Seeing how Russia plays a huge part in the economical and sociological field in the middle Europe (for example supplying Germany with a lot of gas, etc) it's almost a 100% sure thing that EU won't even set trade limits to Russia.

 

 

 

If they were going to, chances are it would have happened by now. And since they're not attacking the capital, chances are they don't care about destroying the country as a whole.

 

 

 

According to some sources they have already started bombing the capital. I'm trying to get a better source to it tho.

[magekillr]

Now the trouble with Russia, like the States, is that they have a real problem with restraint. If only they had been intelligent enough to confine the fighting to South Ossetia. Bellicose morons.

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550804.stm

[hohto]

Now the trouble with Russia, like the States, is that they have a real problem with restraint. If only they had been intelligent enough to confine the fighting to South Ossetia.

 

 

 

If their plan had been to "liberate" South Ossetia like they're claiming, that would have happened. Anyone who can think with their own brains can and should come into the conclusion that Russia is there to fight for their own benefits. These benefits are at least:

 

- Giving a clear sign to other boarder countries what's their opinion on NATO.

 

- Securing the thing that has made it possible for Russia to get back into their feed from the economical crash tha happened around 10 years ago: oil.

 

- Showing that they are back in business to USA and ready to act if it's needed.

 

 

 

There's also been discussion if one reason (however not the main) was to increase the oil price. A conflict in an important area causes a jump in the prices and that benefits Russia more than a lot. Note: it's almost a sure thing they considered this side too but we can only speculate did it play any role when they decided to attack.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Name a war in history where a country hasn't fought for its own benefits... :|

[dragoonson]

Name a war in history where a country hasn't fought for its own benefits... :|

 

 

 

The Crusades?Was more for religious purpose,wasn't it?

[magekillr]

I wouldn't quite paint the Russians as benevolent liberators here, that's not what I'm doing- this has more to do with Russian national pride than with real desire on the part of everyday Russians to liberate oppressed minorities, I think - but the sentiment stands.

 

 

 

Like in any culture, there's a lot not to like in Russian culture. Some of it is fairly glaring. I get savaged on this board all the time for [cabbage]-talking the States and the culture we've spawned - to me, it's the most offensive ever to emerge on earth. I mean, really. The depth of my disgust with what we perceive to be our common national culture cannot be plumbed. All cultures have ups and downs.

 

 

 

That doesn't mean, as you say, that you get to overlook the great things that even the most aesthetically displeasing (to your mind) cultures have wrought.

 

 

 

Hell, look at Rome! I mean, believe me, I know - those people were savages. Animals. Like the worst of the US and Russia paternalistic Great Britain and Somalia all rolled into one. But we deify them!

 

 

 

It's all a matter of perspective, but we should try to be circumspect.

 

 

 

Like I said, and as you know, I'm no fan of Putin. But that doesn't mean I get to abandon rational situational analysis when it comes to Russia.

[hohto]

Name a war in history where a country hasn't fought for its own benefits... :|

 

 

 

Exactly. We can forget the talks about "liberating" certain areas of Georgia: it's not even close of being the main reason why russians are there.

 

 

 

Btw. Georgia pulled their athletes back from Beijing.There's been speculation should Russia be put out too due breaking ekekheria.

 

 

 

edit: Georgia decided to keep their atheletes in China.

[anonymous1234]

yeah, I thought that the Olympics were created to promote peace, and were a time where city-states in Greece would forget their differences to play sports and other activities. Russia kinda violated that, but I don't know much about what's going on so I'm prepared to be brutally corrected :roll:

[Satenza]

According to the Georgian President, Russia has been attacking zones completley out of the way of the conflict as well as targeting pipe lines. It would appear to me that anyone claiming this is about a liberation of South Ossetia is reading only into the pretext of this situation. Georgia has already said they will demilitarize South Ossetia the moment Russia ceases their attacks on Gerogia. Lets hope the diplomats on the way there can establish a ceasefire between both parties and that eventually there will be a withdrawal of troops.

[Bufoman]

This is indeed lousy news. I do not know which side is to blame here... probably both, but if the reports of Russian aggression into Georgian territory and the bombing of their cities is true, then it is the Russians who have crossed the line here and started a full scale war. I read one article that said Georgian websites are down due to cyber attack; sure enough I can't get them up. I think we need to consider sending the marine expeditionary force to Georgia to get the intelligence we need about exactly what is happening their, and keep the Russians from overrunning the country. Naturally we should not take any aggressive action against the Russians until we have the full picture... something like Desert Shield. Of course that's up to our leaders, but we really shouldnt let the Russians get away with taking Georgia out- not if we have interests over their.

 

 

 

The Georgian military is to say the least dwarfed by the Russians. I heard Georgias president offered a cease fire yesterday I believe, but Russia is saying they never got it. The Russians do have a track record as masters of propaganda, one might say they can start a war and make it look like the other country's fault.

[9Fade1]

On the Light hearted side the current situation reminds me of this scene from Family guy

 

 

 

 

 

Chris - South Ossetia

 

Kyle - Georgia

 

Peter - Russia

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkEdt-S0nmE&feature=related

[Lenin64]

And what would be so terrible about Russia becoming a superpower again anyway? I don't think it has that "There can only be One" ideal.

[Bufoman]

And what would be so terrible about Russia becoming a superpower again anyway? I don't think it has that "There can only be One" ideal.

 

 

 

Well need we go down the list of human rights violations of the Russian Federation, and the former USSR? If you disagree with the government over their you end up in a gulag, or worse. That and it would not exactly be good for my country (the United States of America) to have an old adversary restored to its former glory.

[Ginger_Warrior]

While we're on the subject of human rights, shall we list all the US violations?

[magekillr]

While we're on the subject of human rights, shall we list all the US violations?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006 ... -van_x.htm

 

 

 

Yeah, 'cause it's not like the United States executes [developmentally delayed]ed people, or holds people indefinitely in overseas prisons without bringing them up on charges....

 

 

 

or executes foreigners without giving them access to their consulate..

[Grievous]

I heard about that yeah- my friend on another forum is really freaked out about it.