Russia+S Ossetia+Abkhasia in a war against Georgia

[Dizzle229]

Why is it that in WWII, when the U.S. was in isolation, everyone hated us because we weren't doing our part. Now that we're actually getting into things, everyone STILL hates us?

[hohto]

And what would be so terrible about Russia becoming a superpower again anyway? I don't think it has that "There can only be One" ideal.

 

 

 

A) Russia already is or at least is close of being a super power. Depends how you measure it, but with this economical growth, size, military and policy it already is acting like one. It doesn't need the forner USSR areas, it is strong enough now and doesn't need big minorities to cause problems.

 

B) I do not accept same kind of international policy as the former ussr had, where current Russia is going to and what USA has been doing since the end of WW2. The case might be different for those who live far enough from Russia but at least I don't want t to see the political pressure they've given to their neightbours for ages.

 

C) The more we have struggles, the unsafer this place is. My country has suffered already enough from the games USA and USSR played and now are suffering from Russia's actions. Same is for every other boarder country, if they even were independed. The secold cold war (Where it looks like we're heading) is a thing we don't want to see.

 

D) Just because we have one, it doesn't mean we should get more or accept the existance of just one.

[Bufoman]

While we're on the subject of human rights, shall we list all the US violations?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006 ... -van_x.htm

 

 

 

Yeah, 'cause it's not like the United States executes [developmentally delayed] people, or holds people indefinitely in overseas prisons without bringing them up on charges....

 

 

 

or executes foreigners without giving them access to their consulate..

 

 

 

Yes the Chinese sure do love their death vans... I almost thought for a moment their you where agreeing with Ginger and put up an article about us doing something.

 

 

 

On another note Georgia has pulled out of South Osseta and is asking for that cease fire again. The Russians claim they have to verify that Georgia has indeed pulled out: http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory. ... 0300090174

 

 

 

Any one want to wager that Russia will continue its bombings in the mean time?

[misterxman]

This is some bad news but what's freaky is that this exact scenario happened in the old Xbox game Ghost Recon. First thing that came to mind when reading this news was the opening cut scenes.

[magekillr]

While we're on the subject of human rights, shall we list all the US violations?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006 ... -van_x.htm

 

 

 

Yeah, 'cause it's not like the United States executes [developmentally delayed] people, or holds people indefinitely in overseas prisons without bringing them up on charges....

 

 

 

or executes foreigners without giving them access to their consulate..

 

 

 

Yes the Chinese sure do love their death vans... I almost thought for a moment their you where agreeing with Ginger and put up an article about us doing something.

 

 

 

On another note Georgia has pulled out of South Osseta and is asking for that cease fire again. The Russians claim they have to verify that Georgia has indeed pulled out: http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory. ... 0300090174

 

 

 

Any one want to wager that Russia will continue its bombings in the mean time?

 

 

 

I was agreeing with Ginger...I was just posting China's Death Patrol first...but the comments afterwards were completely directed at the USA.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Indeed. Even I realise China's record is ten-fold whatever the US's is, however, this doesn't mean the US is innocent by comparison.

[RichieMcD]

Pretty interesting conflict. I don't agree with Georgia attacking South Ossetia with force because it wants to break away, some of the newsclips I've seen so far even show Georgia firing a barrage of rockets / explosives indiscriminately at Tbilisi. I support Russia in helping S.O but not in the way they're doing it, attacking towns and cities 30-360 Kilometers away from the conflict. If anything, I think Russia is using this conflict as a cover to disrupt Georgia transporting Oil / Gas through it.

[hohto]

Pretty interesting conflict. I don't agree with Georgia attacking South Ossetia with force because it wants to break away

 

 

 

South Ossetia has been on the stage of civil war for a while now, mainly due the aid gotten from Russia. There was international peacekeepers for a reason and imo an armed conflict that can't be solved through diplomacy (was tried for over a decade) must be handled in a way or another.

 

 

 

some of the newsclips I've seen so far even show Georgia firing a barrage of rockets / explosives indiscriminately at Tbilisi.

 

 

 

I'd also like to see newsclips of an event that even the russian media hasn't shown. Tbilisi is the capital of Georgia, not a rebellious area.

 

 

 

I support Russia in helping S.O

 

 

 

So you accept first throwing gasoline to the flames (what Russia has been doing in South Ossetia for a while) in another country's soil? First of all they were planting the seeds of an armed conflict in another country's soil, for the second they are now using it to gain benefits which extend far behind Georgia's boarders.

[warren211]

At the Olympic opening ceremony President Bush had a pretty good chat with Vladimir Putin, and it seemed like a friendly conversation. What he was talking about, we have no idea, but it might have been the issue in Georgia. Either they're still friendly about the issue and we're not geared for Cold War 2 or both of them have really good poker faces when in a heated debate. Whatever the case may be, I really don't like the idea of the US jumping into the fray, regardless of what NATO requires. Russia's the kind of lot you do not want to become enemies with. We managed to stabilize relations for the most part after the Cold War, going back to murky territory will be harder to replace this time around.

[Powman3]

Why is it that in WWII, when the U.S. was in isolation, everyone hated us because we weren't doing our part. Now that we're actually getting into things, everyone STILL hates us?

 

 

 

I know, huh?

 

 

 

It'd be extremely bad to be enemies with Russia again, we don't need another Cold War.

[hohto]

At the Olympic opening ceremony President Bush had a pretty good chat with Vladimir Putin, and it seemed like a friendly conversation. What he was talking about, we have no idea, but it might have been the issue in Georgia. Either they're still friendly about the issue and we're not geared for Cold War 2 or both of them have really good poker faces when in a heated debate. Whatever the case may be, I really don't like the idea of the US jumping into the fray, regardless of what NATO requires. Russia's the kind of lot you do not want to become enemies with.

 

 

 

The prime minister Putin is Bush's personal friend. USA and Russia have had hard times within last few years due many separate reasons (missile shield, Iran, etc) but it hasn't affected too badly to personal relations. Yea most likely they also got into case Georgia but for how far will that reach?

[magekillr]

The US will do nothing, as it should.

 

 

 

Well, at least I hope we don't...anything we touch turns to liquid [cabbage].

 

 

 

If there's one thing other countries need to know about the US, it's that we don't get involved in [cabbage] unless there's a hell of a lot in it for us. Sure, the US may say they're grateful for 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq, but they'll be damned if they see any advantage in it for them to send their own troops to help Georgia. Anyone's mistake is thinking the US makes any foreign intervention altruistically.

 

 

 

Perhaps I'm giving Bush too much credit here, but with Iran on the horizon, and Iraq in the present, I don't think we'll do a damned thing. For once, I agree with the administration: that we shouldn't.

[eggzs]

I don't think the US will send in troops, they already have conflicts on 2 fronts ( Afghanistan, Iraq) that are stretching their resources with Iran possibly on the horizon, even if they do send some troops and the US gets crushed, it will be one more blow to the Bush administration.

[hohto]

If there's one thing other countries need to know about the US, it's that we don't get involved in [cabbage] unless there's a hell of a lot in it for us. Sure, the US may say they're grateful for 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq, but they'll be damned if they see any advantage in it for them to send their own troops to help Georgia. Anyone's mistake is thinking the US makes any foreign intervention altruistically.

 

 

 

 

Only things USA can do is to judge the war (already done) and give minor support to Georgia. Anyone whose IQ is high enough to be able to read should realise really quickly that USA even can't help in the form of an attack: the cost of helping would be a lot bigger than even the worst case scenario in Georgia or boarder countries. It's also been said multiple times in his thread so why to bring it up at page 4 once again?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Although I did find the 'disproportionate' comment by Bush quite strange. I suppose the Iraq War was proportionate to the 9/11 attacks...

 

 

 

I personally cannot see an end to this war unless Georgia concedes South Ossetia, or perhaps even Abkhasia. I wouldn't rule out Georgia becoming something akin to a vassal state of Russia either.

 

 

 

I have sympathy for the refugees whose lives have been turned upside down - war isn't a nice affair - but I've frankly no sympathy for Georgia's government here. South Ossetia is a cocktail that hasn't been defused or properly addressed in 20 years. This situation could have been sorted on the collapse of the Soviet Union, but was never addressed. Added to that the incompetence of the Georgian PM who honestly thought the international community would lend military aid. I'm sorry, that's not Russia's responsibility - it's Georgia's.

 

 

 

It's about as close you can get to asking for a war with Russia without saying as such in explicit words. And the thought of a country as puny as Georgia picking a war with Russia reeks of gross political and strategic incompetence.

 

 

 

I'm hoping for a cease fire as well, and I'm hoping the French FM can persuade the Kremlin to accept the offer on the table, or at least reply to it with a counter-offer to get the ball rolling. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit here and go "Poor Georgia's being picked on by evil Russia".

[hohto]

I personally cannot see an end to this war unless Georgia concedes South Ossetia, or perhaps even Abkhasia.

 

 

 

Georgia, EU and ETYJ have have created one sketch of a possible peace deal they are bringing to Moscow. Georgia is definately in need of a quick peace and it wouldn't be a miracle if they just gave away all the rebellious areas. The discussions are meant to start today with Lavrov and tomorrow with Putin and Medvedev. The "georgian" side is supposed to be the finnish foreignministry Stubb and French Kouchner. It's still unclear (or at least was when I last time checked) will georgian Tkeshelasvili attend. Good thing that the EU has taken a strong role here in order to restore peace.

 

 

 

Btw there's already a conspiracy theory going on that Georgia would have done this in order to get rid of South Ossetia and Abkhasia. The reason would be that it would be a political suicide to just give them to Russia and NATO countries aren't allowed to have "boarder conflicts". Sounds pretty farfetched though, seeing that Russia definately wouldn't want to take those parts in exchange to get a new NATO country just behind its boarders and the risks for Gerogia are so high that the decicion couldn't have been made by them only.

 

 

 

I wouldn't rule out Georgia becoming something akin to a vassal state of Russia either.

 

 

 

Saakashvili already said today that Russia is aiming to change the goverment of Georgia. The aim of this would naturally be a russophilic goverment and the result you're talking about.

[magekillr]

If there's one thing other countries need to know about the US, it's that we don't get involved in [cabbage] unless there's a hell of a lot in it for us. Sure, the US may say they're grateful for 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq, but they'll be damned if they see any advantage in it for them to send their own troops to help Georgia. Anyone's mistake is thinking the US makes any foreign intervention altruistically.

 

 

 

 

Only things USA can do is to judge the war (already done) and give minor support to Georgia. Anyone whose IQ is high enough to be able to read should realise really quickly that USA even can't help in the form of an attack: the cost of helping would be a lot bigger than even the worst case scenario in Georgia or boarder countries. It's also been said multiple times in his thread so why to bring it up at page 4 once again?

 

 

 

Because you mentioned the relations of the President and PM. I'm sorry I haven't read every post on here, but there are other ways that the US can get involved without direct conflict...plus we have airlifted Georgians to help in the conflict. THAT is getting involved, and we need to stay the [bleep] out.

 

 

 

Notice how we have trade embargoes on Cuba...that's another way we could get involved :roll:

[Flodder450]

Make love-not war :

 

 

 

honestly?

 

why do they still make war?

 

and wht do we need to help one side or another? they can fight it out themselfs? -.-

[hohto]

and wht do we need to help one side or another? they can fight it out themselfs? -.-

 

 

 

Georgia: population in 2004 = 4 661 473

 

Russia: total troops in 2008 = 3,796,100

 

 

 

Without any collective security systems (not always necessary a military) there's no chances smaller nations could have any realistic dreams of peace. There is a reason why markets are being tied together even sometimes at the cost of efficency, why people are giving support (again, not only arms or tropps) to nations like Georgia and so on. The best way to provide peace is to make make the price to high but without a risk of accidents.

[Bufoman]

I wouldnt go as far as to say that we (the US) could not take on the Russians in Georgia. We have ACR's (Armored Cavalry Regiments) that can be quickly deployed and take on entire Russian armored divisions on their own (if only for a limited time). We also have nine aircraft carriers (last time I checked) and I wouldnt be surprised if a task force is on it's way at the time of this writing. But getting involved here may have far reaching consequences, not the least being a hostile Russia. Then again they are not exactly our friends anyways, considering how they intervened for Iran. Why can't we do the same for Georgia?

 

 

 

Also no one here has mentioned the obvious: that Moscow may be testing the water, seeing what they can get away with.

[Nero]

Georgia has been gearing up for this war for some time now. In the past 10 years or so they've increased their military spending from $30m US to $1B US. It's quite obvious that Georgia is the aggressor in this war, though news stories all over the west speak differently; maybe something to do with Georgia being an ally and major oil provider?

 

 

 

I don't have much love for the Russians, but I think what they're doing here is justifiable.

[hohto]

Georgia has been gearing up for this war for some time now. In the past 10 years or so they've increased their military spending from $30m US to $1B US. It's quite obvious that Georgia is the aggressor in this war, though news stories all over the west speak differently; maybe something to do with Georgia being an ally and major oil provider?

 

 

 

Dude? Are you serious? Finland's budget is 2.8 billion and we're ranked 43th on that list. Finland and Georgia got almost the same amount of people and Georgia has had to build their army from pretty much nothing while we don't need to do new investions every year. If you ask me, Georgia's growth has been surprisingly slow and far away from challenging a country that has more everything and for example 45 times bigger budget?

 

 

 

Btw with the 30m usd you'd rank currently to place 143, barely over Togo. Are you claiming that a country that has been on the stage of civil war for over a decade and has a lot of boarder with Russia should stay at that?

[Kaphias]

Looks like there's been a cease-fire.

 

Read here.

[Bufoman]

Looks like the cease fire was short lived: http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory. ... 1181337897

[konzserwas]

There never been a cease-fire. Russia declared (and still does) that they have stopped the war, but actually they're killing civilians out there :wall: