Price manipulation: right or wrong?

[Sir_Kurity]

Look, they talk about merchanting clans (price manipulators), and say its not illegal, but discouraged.

 

 

 

Don't delude yourself and think they are talking about legitimate merchanting clans.

[Guest]

 

Your link is not related at all.

 

 

 

Merchanting, whether in clans or not is NOT price manipulation. Enough said. Merchanting is using skill to predict the market, whereas price manipulation is using brute force. Merchants don't affect the market adversely, whereas price manipulation does.

 

 

 

Lmfao. You really don't have a clue do you? You didnt even get to the part which explains it. Sorry, but you really are going to look more of a fool the more you deny it.

 

 

 

Out of that link is your method of brute force:

 

 

 

 

1. Due to the economic principle of "supply and demand", prices tend to rise when a lot of people are buying an item, and fall when a lot of people are selling.

 

 

 

 

 

2. A rich player, or group of rich players, will choose a specific item and buy up a large quantity. This causes the price for that item to start rising.

 

 

 

 

 

3. The leaders tell you that if you buy enough of the same item, the price will keep rising. They say that you should keep buying until they tell you to sell, and everyone will make money because you'll be selling for more than you paid.

 

 

 

 

 

4. Prices will only keep rising as long as there are more people looking to buy than there are items for sale. Once someone starts to sell in large quantities (known as "dumping" the item), the prices will fall ("crash") as the supply/demand imbalance is reversed. Anyone who doesn't react quickly enough will be left holding items that are suddenly worth a lot less than they paid.

 

 

 

 

 

5. Crucially, the crash will almost always be before the "sell date" publicised by the clan leaders. No-one wants to be last to sell as they would be less likely to make their money back. This means that you're essentially having to trust other players with your money. You don't control them and you probably don't even know them, but it just takes one or two of them to lose their nerve and your money evaporates.

 

 

 

Any chance of seeing the rule that says this practice is BANNED?

[Erewhon2]

Your link is not related at all.

 

Merchanting, whether in clans or not is NOT price manipulation. Enough said. Merchanting is using skill to predict the market, whereas price manipulation is using brute force. Merchants don't affect the market adversely, whereas price manipulation does.

 

I thought that was an excellent link and very topical and interesting. :thumbup:

 

And a merchant is a person who buys and sells commodities for profit; a dealer or trader. Which is also what a price manipulator does, the difference is possibly related to the extensive scale, but in the end its all about profit, a dealer or trader is still hoping to push the prices up before they sell and buy low. It's clearly not against the rules and is not of "major concern" to Jagex, however they are going to try and prevent it happening.

 

Look, they talk about merchanting clans (price manipulators), and say its not illegal, but discouraged.

 

 

 

Don't delude yourself and think they are talking about legitimate merchanting clans.

 

Exactly! :thumbup:

[John Halo Chief]

Wrong. It's scamming people since they never dump at the right time. Anyone who is a leader or General of one is just a sad little troll who enjoys ripping people off. I'm looking at YOU, wefightge.

[quelmotz]

I still think it's against the rules, like it or not.

 

 

 

If it's not against any rules, why the hell are they doing any freaking thing about it? If it's harmless and not against the rules in any way, why are they wasting their time fixing it and preventing it from happening?

 

 

 

I don't know why you can't see the flaw in your logic.

[John Halo Chief]

I still think it's against the rules, like it or not.

 

 

 

If it's not against any rules, why the hell are they doing any freaking thing about it? If it's harmless and not against the rules in any way, why are they wasting their time fixing it and preventing it from happening?

 

 

 

I don't know why you can't see the flaw in your logic.

 

Yeah, you're right...except...Andrew made an anti-merch clan. :shame:

[Guest]

I still think it's against the rules, like it or not.

 

 

 

If it's not against any rules, why the hell are they doing any freaking thing about it? If it's harmless and not against the rules in any way, why are they wasting their time fixing it and preventing it from happening?

 

 

 

I don't know why you can't see the flaw in your logic.

 

 

 

I don't have a flaw in my logic. If I did, you would be quoting to me now the rule that says this practice is banned. It isn't and you know it, otherwise it would have been simple to prove me wrong by quoting rules against it.

 

It is because of this that is in the thread I posted as the reason why its difficult to ban outright:

 

 

 

 

We also want to prevent dishonest players from deliberately misleading others into making unwise transactions so that they can profit at the others' expense. Of course, not all players involved in merchanting are out to scam people. However, if someone is giving you buy/sell instructions, it is almost impossible to tell in advance whether they are advising you in good faith, or whether they are actually attempting to mislead you.

 

 

 

 

Proving solicitation would be near impossible. They are fixing it because its more of an annoyance rather than a major concern.

[quelmotz]

I still think it's against the rules, like it or not.

 

 

 

If it's not against any rules, why the hell are they doing any freaking thing about it? If it's harmless and not against the rules in any way, why are they wasting their time fixing it and preventing it from happening?

 

 

 

I don't know why you can't see the flaw in your logic.

 

 

 

I don't have a flaw in my logic. If I did, you would be quoting to me now the rule that says this practice is banned. It isn't and you know it, otherwise it would have been simple to prove me wrong by quoting rules against it.

 

It is because of this that is in the thread I posted as the reason why its difficult to ban outright:

 

 

 

 

We also want to prevent dishonest players from deliberately misleading others into making unwise transactions so that they can profit at the others' expense. Of course, not all players involved in merchanting are out to scam people. However, if someone is giving you buy/sell instructions, it is almost impossible to tell in advance whether they are advising you in good faith, or whether they are actually attempting to mislead you.

 

 

 

 

Proving solicitation would be near impossible. They are fixing it because its more of an annoyance rather than a major concern.

 

 

 

Just because they aren't banning people who manipulate prices DOESN'T mean it isn't against the rules.

 

 

 

They won't fix it if it isn't wrong/illegal. Yes, it might not be a major concern, but there are always plenty of trivial issues that are wrong/illegal.

[Guest]

 

Just because they aren't banning people who manipulate prices DOESN'T mean it isn't against the rules.

 

I keep asking you to prove me wrong. Show me the rules where it says this. You're fixated that its against the rules so prove it.

 

 

 

 

They won't fix it if it isn't wrong/illegal. Yes, it might not be a major concern, but there are always plenty of trivial issues that are wrong/illegal.

 

 

 

I think Jagex know what they are doing. Obviously they dont hold the same POV as you on how wrong it is. I've stated in another post, price manipulation is a bi-product of RWT and huge amounts of scamming being banned. I'd rather temporarily put up with price manipulation considering what we could have had.

[Sir_Kurity]

Its not against the rules.

 

 

 

It may be actively discouraged, and they might make a rule against it if it was easy to prove and there wouldn't be such a backlash.

 

 

 

The fact remains that it isnt against the rules.

[Erewhon2]

I cannot find a single thing that says it is against the rules.

[Owned_Nex]

 

Just because they aren't banning people who manipulate prices DOESN'T mean it isn't against the rules.

 

I keep asking you to prove me wrong. Show me the rules where it says this. You're fixated that its against the rules so prove it.

 

 

 

 

They won't fix it if it isn't wrong/illegal. Yes, it might not be a major concern, but there are always plenty of trivial issues that are wrong/illegal.

 

 

 

I think Jagex know what they are doing. Obviously they dont hold the same POV as you on how wrong it is. I've stated in another post, price manipulation is a bi-product of RWT and huge amounts of scamming being banned. I'd rather temporarily put up with price manipulation considering what we could have had.

 

 

 

In the real world, this practice is prevented by INTERNATIONAL LAW. In the USA, there is a heavy penalty for this practice.

 

 

 

I think the major powers of the Earth's POV> Jagex.

[Championfurydelta123]

Wrong :shame:

[hihihi727]

 

Just because they aren't banning people who manipulate prices DOESN'T mean it isn't against the rules.

 

I keep asking you to prove me wrong. Show me the rules where it says this. You're fixated that its against the rules so prove it.

 

 

 

 

They won't fix it if it isn't wrong/illegal. Yes, it might not be a major concern, but there are always plenty of trivial issues that are wrong/illegal.

 

 

 

I think Jagex know what they are doing. Obviously they dont hold the same POV as you on how wrong it is. I've stated in another post, price manipulation is a bi-product of RWT and huge amounts of scamming being banned. I'd rather temporarily put up with price manipulation considering what we could have had.

 

 

 

In the real world, this practice is prevented by INTERNATIONAL LAW. In the USA, there is a heavy penalty for this practice.

 

 

 

I think the major powers of the Earth's POV> Jagex.

 

 

 

Runescape and real life is a little different in case you haven't noticed. BTW, just because in real life a similar practice is illegal doesn't mean that price manipulation is against Jagex rules, because it isn't

[quelmotz]

They didn't STATE that it is against the rules, but it is, because they're doing something about it, which shows that it is against the rules.

[Erewhon2]

They didn't STATE that it is against the rules, but it is, because they're doing something about it, which shows that it is against the rules.

 

Hmmm....

 

When they decided they would stop people smoking in a bar, it was still legal (withing the rules) until they actually changed the law. A bar could not be prosecuted until that law was passed. Therefore, if there is no rule against it, it is still 'legal' (within the rules) no matter how much it is frowned on, until that said 'rule' is stated.

 

 

 

Having said that, Jagex are not intending to make it against the rules, they are working on preventing it happening in the first place.

 

 

 

Alternatively you come back to personal opinion about the moralities of 'right' and wrong'. But technically it is not 'wrong' to manipulate prices at this point in time.

[Guest]

They didn't STATE that it is against the rules, but it is, because they're doing something about it, which shows that it is against the rules.

 

 

 

This has to be one of the most contradictory posts I have ever seen.

 

 

 

Again, I CHALLENGE YOU to show me the rule. You cannot have something against the rules if you don't state its against the rules. Otherwise how will players know its actually banned? #-o

 

 

 

You've ignored what Jagex have said, their advisory notes and why they cannot directly ban it because they cannot prove solicitation. So to keep denying it is folly on your part. I think somewhere in this you're trying to prove a point just to be right and if you keep telling me this then you believe I will change my mind. I won't

[Sir_Kurity]

They didn't STATE that it is against the rules, but it is, because they're doing something about it, which shows that it is against the rules.

 

 

 

If it was against the rules. I'm sure they would state it.

 

 

 

But its not, its merely annoying, a few people are losing like 10k or something, some people are getting rich... Its not against the rules.

[Youmu]

Wrong. Exploiting the GE to make prices skyrocket for other players is abusing it, and this also causes scams. It's against the rules.

 

 

 

Whoever says "right", means that they support price manipulation, which also means they support abuse, exploits, and scamming. These things are also against the rules, so why would you ever do that? :shame:

 

 

 

Also, as Pantim said, it is also against the rules in REAL LIFE. This gives absolutely zero reason for price manipulation to be right.

[Erewhon2]

Wrong. Exploiting the GE to make prices skyrocket for other players is abusing it, and this also causes scams. It's against the rules.

Oh dear.....here we go again, please see my point below: :wall:

I cannot find a single thing that says it is against the rules.

And Jrhairychest's point......

 

Again' date=' I CHALLENGE YOU to show me the rule. You cannot have something against the rules if you don't state its against the rules.[/quote'] So show me where it states it is against the rules? Otherwise we are back to my metaphor:

When they decided they would stop people smoking in a bar, it was still legal (within the rules) until they actually changed the law. A bar could not be prosecuted until that law was passed. Therefore, if there is no rule against it, it is still 'legal' (within the rules) no matter how much it is frowned on, until that said 'rule' is stated.

And finally, yes there may be moral 'grey' issues about right and wrong, but essentially if it not against the rules, then it is allowed.

[Youmu]

Wrong. Exploiting the GE to make prices skyrocket for other players is abusing it, and this also causes scams. It's against the rules.

Oh dear.....here we go again, please see my point below: :wall:

I cannot find a single thing that says it is against the rules.

And Jrhairychest's point......

 

Again' date=' I CHALLENGE YOU to show me the rule. You cannot have something against the rules if you don't state its against the rules.[/quote'] So show me where it states it is against the rules? Otherwise we are back to my metaphor:

When they decided they would stop people smoking in a bar, it was still legal (within the rules) until they actually changed the law. A bar could not be prosecuted until that law was passed. Therefore, if there is no rule against it, it is still 'legal' (within the rules) no matter how much it is frowned on, until that said 'rule' is stated.

And finally, yes there may be moral 'grey' issues about right and wrong, but essentially if it not against the rules, then it is allowed.

 

Did you actually READ what I put below?

 

Whoever says "right", means that they support price manipulation, which also means they support abuse, exploits, and scamming. These things are also against the rules, so why would you ever do that? :shame:

 

 

 

Also, as Pantim said, it is also against the rules in REAL LIFE. This gives absolutely zero reason for price manipulation to be right.

 

Please, I don't want to go ahead and start another flame war.

[Erewhon2]

Did you actually READ what I put below?

 

Sonic3190 wrote:

 

Whoever says "right", means that they support price manipulation, which also means they support abuse, exploits, and scamming. These things are also against the rules, so why would you ever do that? :shame:

 

 

 

Also, as Pantim said, it is also against the rules in REAL LIFE. This gives absolutely zero reason for price manipulation to be right.

No one is starting a 'flame war' (whatever that means), but yours is just an opinion that I am disagreeing with. Whether it is right or wrong morally, price manipulation is not against the rules and many people also benefit as well as lose, whether its the new addy or mith you buy, or bandos! :wall: Yes I did read what you put, did you read mine? As Est0rrath states:

 

If it was against the rules. I'm sure they would state it.

 

 

 

But its not, its merely annoying, a few people are losing like 10k or something, some people are getting rich... Its not against the rules.

This is not real life, it is a game, how are people being abused? These are incredibly strong terms for something that is a game and completely out of proportion to the issue. There are clear guidelines from Jagex on dealing with those clans that manipulate prices for anyone that wants to read them.

 

However the point I was making is that it is not stated anywhere that it is against the rules and I have spent time looking! Please note this direct quote from Jagex:

The attempts to price manipulate on the Grand Exchange are annoying but not a massive concern in the grand scheme of things. They are fairly easy to spot heuristically and we already have updates in the works to make it so this sort of thing doesnt work (the price just wont change). Andrew Gower's Answers 03-Sep-2009

It clearly says it is NOT a "massive concern" and all they are doing is trying to prevent it happening, not making it 'against the rules'. Do not equate RS with RL in case you hadn't realised.....it isn't. :shame:

[Youmu]

Did you actually READ what I put below?

 

Sonic3190 wrote:

 

Whoever says "right", means that they support price manipulation, which also means they support abuse, exploits, and scamming. These things are also against the rules, so why would you ever do that? :shame:

 

 

 

Also, as Pantim said, it is also against the rules in REAL LIFE. This gives absolutely zero reason for price manipulation to be right.

No one is starting a 'flame war' (whatever that means), but yours is just an opinion that I am disagreeing with. Whether it is right or wrong morally, price manipulation is not against the rules and many people also benefit as well as lose, whether its the new addy or mith you buy, or bandos! :wall: Yes I did read what you put, did you read mine? As Est0rrath states:

 

If it was against the rules. I'm sure they would state it.

 

 

 

But its not, its merely annoying, a few people are losing like 10k or something, some people are getting rich... Its not against the rules.

This is not real life, it is a game, how are people being abused? These are incredibly strong terms for something that is a game and completely out of proportion to the issue. There are clear guidelines from Jagex on dealing with those clans that manipulate prices for anyone that wants to read them.

 

However the point I was making is that it is not stated anywhere that it is against the rules and I have spent time looking! Please note this direct quote from Jagex:

The attempts to price manipulate on the Grand Exchange are annoying but not a massive concern in the grand scheme of things. They are fairly easy to spot heuristically and we already have updates in the works to make it so this sort of thing doesnt work (the price just wont change). Andrew Gower's Answers 03-Sep-2009

It clearly says it is NOT a "massive concern" and all they are doing is trying to prevent it happening, not making it 'against the rules'. Do not equate RS with RL in case you hadn't realised.....it isn't. :shame:

 

Flame War = Making an argument, while also including insults.

 

 

 

And why did I put price manipulating is against the rules :wall:

 

 

 

I was assuming that it had traits that most definitely make it against the rules, but for some reason three wrongs make a right. #-o

 

 

 

I just think it's wrong, because it involves scamming, abusing, and exploiting. It ruins the game for many people, especially those who frequently buy stuff from the GE. Jagex is most certainly trying to stop it, but why isn't it a massive concern? Why hadn't they say it was against the rules yet? I'm with you on this one, Jagex must sooner or later put price manipulating to a stop, but let's just abuse it for now until they say so. (Sorry for the sarcasm, that's the only way I could argue back with that one.)

 

 

 

Also I was only saying things that Pantim said, because he made a reasonable point about real life. It most indeed equates to RS, because whether it is in RL or RS, the economy is greatly altered by price manipulation, affecting a lot of people.

 

 

 

I'm sorry if I'm offending you with my arguments, in fact that's the least I want to do. I'm not the guy that calls other people "hypocrite" (looking at you, Quelmotz ), in fact I respect other people's opinions just as I do with my own. Let's just have a friendly debate with this, I don't want it to get too far.

[Guest]

 

Flame War = Making an argument, while also including insults.

 

 

 

And why did I put price manipulating is against the rules :wall:

 

 

 

I was assuming that it had traits that most definitely make it against the rules, but for some reason three wrongs make a right. #-o

 

 

 

At least you were adult to admit you were wrong about it. :thumbup:

 

 

 

 

I just think it's wrong, because it involves scamming, abusing, and exploiting. It ruins the game for many people, especially those who frequently buy stuff from the GE. Jagex is most certainly trying to stop it, but why isn't it a massive concern? Why hadn't they say it was against the rules yet? I'm with you on this one, Jagex must sooner or later put price manipulating to a stop, but let's just abuse it for now until they say so. (Sorry for the sarcasm, that's the only way I could argue back with that one.)

 

 

 

I say its right, because there are no rules saying its wrong. I also say its right because those who are taken in by it for easy money lose out, and much of their cash goes into the pockets of normal players selling their items. If people lose their money because they were that daft to be taken in by it then tough. I don't support scamming or anything else, I just call it poetic justice. The bulk of those price manipulators lose out which is hilarious. Jagex have stated they will stop this function (hopefully). Until that time, I won't change my viewpoint on this.

 

 

 

 

Also I was only saying things that Pantim said, because he made a reasonable point about real life. It most indeed equates to RS, because whether it is in RL or RS, the economy is greatly altered by price manipulation, affecting a lot of people.

 

 

 

I'm sorry if I'm offending you with my arguments, in fact that's the least I want to do. I'm not the guy that calls other people "hypocrite" (looking at you, Quelmotz ), in fact I respect other people's opinions just as I do with my own. Let's just have a friendly debate with this, I don't want it to get too far.

 

 

 

The game isn't real life. Thats the difference. It runs by its own rules and regulations. After all in the game you can weild a sword and kill a man if you want. For obvious reasons you can't do that in RL. I've heard things about the RS 'economy' even though we can be entirely self sufficient without it and get our own stuff, which also doesn't equate to RL. If anything I dealt with was manipulated I'd rather get it myself or wait. No problem, but everyone is different I suppose. :-k

[Erewhon2]

Thanks for the definition Sonic3190 :thumbup:

 

And why did I put price manipulating is against the rules :wall:

 

 

 

I was assuming that it had traits that most definitely make it against the rules, but for some reason three wrongs make a right. #-o

 

 

 

I just think it's wrong, because it involves scamming, abusing, and exploiting. It ruins the game for many people, especially those who frequently buy stuff from the GE. Jagex is most certainly trying to stop it, but why isn't it a massive concern? Why hadn't they say it was against the rules yet? I'm with you on this one, Jagex must sooner or later put price manipulating to a stop, but let's just abuse it for now until they say so. (Sorry for the sarcasm, that's the only way I could argue back with that one.)

 

 

 

Also I was only saying things that Pantim said, because he made a reasonable point about real life. It most indeed equates to RS, because whether it is in RL or RS, the economy is greatly altered by price manipulation, affecting a lot of people.

At least you are trying to reason your way through this, there is clarity on the point as Jrhairychest so aptly put it:

I say its right, because there are no rules saying its wrong. I also say its right because those who are taken in by it for easy money lose out, and much of their cash goes into the pockets of normal players selling their items.

And yes this does not allow for those grey areas around the morality of price manipulation. However I have to say that point was ground to death in earlier posts, with the final conclusion that ultimately the 'right' and 'wrong' of it was down to whether it was against the rules or not (which it isn't). The reason for this being, that unless you completely avoid the GE in all you do on RS, you will inevitably be part of the 'problem' as any player can and will benefit from price increases, or be part of a price crash.

 

 

 

Therefore...play the game, enjoy it and stop taking it so seriously, you can always make more money, remember in RL you can't go out and cut some magic logs to make a few bucks! :thumbsup: