Price manipulation: right or wrong?

[TheDayRsDied]

If Jagex does not want price manipulation, then they should not have introduced the Grand Exchange.

[Forerunner]

I don't see how it can be right, but then again I don't see how it can be wrong.

 

If somebody has the ability & resources to do it, & nothing is stopping them, they can go full steam ahead. It will have a negative impact on some players, but can also be an advantage to others.

 

I wouldn't call it an 'honest' profit, but in reality, there is no cheating involved (in a sense).

[Parsa]

Price manipulation is only wrong because of the runescape trade limit which doesnt allow people to trade for the price they want, but the manipulated price.

 

 

 

Otherwise i really cannot understand why its wrong, if somebody can outsmart the rest then he should do it. If somebody is too stupid to check prices and graphs on grand exchange db then he deserves to be ripped off.

[Dayking321]

Morally wrong, perhaps. It's a bit like insider trading in real life - "our (shares/coal) is about to fall, SELL!" It's obviously not against the game rules yet.

 

 

 

Merchanting itself doesn't equal price manipulation - one can simply read the graphs, get a feel for supply/demand, and work from there, but when you've got hundreds of players screwing over the rest of us because they can afford to buy out all the (insert commodity here,) THEN we have a problem.

 

 

 

Price manipulation wouldn't be a problem if "fair trade" was removed, and we went back to "free trade," but then we'll have more problems with macro-ers. It's a double-edged sword, I guess (and I would much rather no macroers.)

[txxxt5]

personally im all for it. im not rich but i dont really care how people make money.

 

 

 

For those that do it and figured it out congrats :D you found out how to merch on the g.e.

 

 

 

For those who are against it.. you either probably lost money cause of price manipulation or you just arent smart enough to join them youself. Although there might be a few of you like me that are too afraid to get banned for doing it lol.

 

 

 

For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)

 

 

 

The moral to all of this is if you have high value items like barrows, a gs, or something like that then watch the g.e prices. If you look at the graph you can usually see when a clan is merching it. When that happens wait about a day or 2 and then sell for profit. usually clans rise it for a week and then drop all of them into the g.e.

[fenrir321]

I think it is fine. I myself am in a merchanting clan. To anyone who says it's not fair, I had to work to get the money to merchant. Also, to the person who said guthans was too expensive....i bought my set at 10m. After the ge caused market crash, it is not even worth half of what i paid. Is it not fair that I make a tiny bit of money off of merchanting what lost me so much money? Finally, although we succeed about 3/4 of the time in merchanting, we do fail. We made the money to merch, we use it to merch. All's fair.

 

If you're in a merchanting clan and you're price manipulating on the G.E. (in the process detailed below), you are not endorsing capitalism as you so imply in the post.

 

You are creating a monopoly by damming up the supply so that it's distributing amongst the clan and virtually no one else in the game. By making a hold off on the supply, there is no competition to bring the price down, essentially buying up the competition. That is in no way capitalism.

 

 

 

Of course, if you are NOT doing the above, then you're just economically savy, not price manipulating (as you defend) while also receiving my humble apologies. :

 

 

 

 

 

For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)

 

That's not price manipulation; that's being economically savy.

 

Buy when low and sell when high is not manipulation.

 

Manipulation is buying up all the stock so there's no competition and then waiting for the demand to eventually pile up.

 

Or

 

It is saying on the forums, "Zamorak pages got nerfed in drop rate! They're now more common!" to lower the price.

[quelmotz]

There's nothing wrong with price manipulation. Its just people buying low and selling high. Look at the RL example of property, stock etc. Investors buy stuff at a low price and when the price skyrockets, they sell it off. So? If price manipulation is wrong, a few million people would be in jail now.

 

 

 

And for those jerks who say the people who manipulate the price are jerks who force them to be unable to afford a certain item... too bad then. Its your fault that you didn't buy it earlier. Or just wait until the price comes down again and buy it.

[sadukar123]

There's nothing wrong with price manipulation. Its just people buying low and selling high. Look at the RL example of property, stock etc. Investors buy stuff at a low price and when the price skyrockets, they sell it off. So? If price manipulation is wrong, a few million people would be in jail now.

 

 

 

And for those jerks who say the people who manipulate the price are jerks who force them to be unable to afford a certain item... too bad then. Its your fault that you didn't buy it earlier. Or just wait until the price comes down again and buy it.

 

Merchant and Manipulators are DIFFERENT. Not even CLOSE with your analogy. Oh, there are a lot of people jailed for insider trading. :roll:

[txxxt5]

 

For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)

 

That's not price manipulation; that's being economically savy.

 

Buy when low and sell when high is not manipulation.

 

Manipulation is buying up all the stock so there's no competition and then waiting for the demand to eventually pile up.

 

Or

 

It is saying on the forums, "Zamorak pages got nerfed in drop rate! They're now more common!" to lower the price.

 

 

 

no im talking about when that merching clan made the dark bow go up to 1.1m. I was smart enough to buy a couple myself so i could ride the train till it was enough profit for me and sold a day before they dumped the dbows back into the ge.

[fenrir321]

 

For those who have lost money because of it. Thats your fault. When i had my darkbow about a month ago i watched the price of it so i wouldnt loose anything. When it went up i guess i made a profit :)

 

That's not price manipulation; that's being economically savy.

 

Buy when low and sell when high is not manipulation.

 

Manipulation is buying up all the stock so there's no competition and then waiting for the demand to eventually pile up.

 

Or

 

It is saying on the forums, "Zamorak pages got nerfed in drop rate! They're now more common!" to lower the price.

 

 

 

no im talking about when that merching clan made the dark bow go up to 1.1m. I was smart enough to buy a couple myself so i could ride the train till it was enough profit for me and sold a day before they dumped the dbows back into the ge.

 

Well, you didn't manipulate the prices, but they did.

[Gpguy]

I personally think its right...up to a point. For example, someone manipulated balls of wool, whos really going to suffer?

 

 

 

But, it (bleeps) me off when someone (this happend recently) buys out something ive been saving for. I woerked my (donkey) in f2p so i could afford a bandos GS. But no, someone HAD to manipulate it.

 

 

 

So, if it doesn't affect you, then you're Okay with it?

 

 

 

Sadly, the precedent doesn't work like that. The law deals in absolutes and precedents. Otherwise, discrimination is present.

 

 

 

Is there anything ethically right about it? Well, it doesn't help anybody except themselves. People will always defend something which is to their advantage. However Unethical it may be. I mean, why do you think it took us so long to abolish slavery?

[crossedbody]

Wrong. Abusing the game's mechanics in a way that give you an advantage, and bring the other players to a disadvantage is wrong, and everyone who does it should be banned.

 

Like the antifire potion manipulation that is going on right now.

[Youmu]

Wrong. Purposely buying products at such a ridiculously high price is crazy, and there is no point to doing so anyway.

 

Take Fire Tiaras for an example. I saw a GE graph one day and realized the price is rising pretty fast. There is no use to them, other than entering the Fire Altar (which you can just buy the talisman and craft a tiara anyway).

[DragonSam]

Lessee ... I bought a Regeneration Bracelet a few weeks ago for under 300k. I went into the GE last week and someone's saying "Buying Regen Bracelet at top price". I check and top price is 347k. I think to myself "Cool. I can sell now, making 47k, and buy again when it's around 300k again".

 

 

 

So, what happened? I sold, and got my 347k, and made 47k. I thought this buyer was just someone who desperately wanted a Regen Bracelet right that minute, so was willing to offer top price. Imagine my surprise when I see this same player continuing to offer top price after I'd sold my RB. And each time I went into the GE that night there they were, offering top price.

 

 

 

Natch, the price shot through the roof. Have a look at the Jagex chart. Within a couple of days it was up around 450k, and my guess is that the player who bought mine had bought a lot of others in that time. And of course I couldn't buy back at a cheaper price because they simply weren't available at a cheaper price. I'd made 47k but lost my RB.

 

 

 

And then ... the sell off. Anyone who had been eager to buy one had been competing with a bidder saying 'top price' for a week, so if they didn't match that price they'd been missing out. Eventually, the person/people who has been hoarding decides to start selling and they'll be able to sell a few at the highest price to the most desperate. For slightly less they'll sell to the slightly less desperate and so on, so they have to drop the price from that peak point in little steps. They'll still be making a packet as they go, but they'll need to sell quickly and the price will drop like a stone. Again, have a look at the chart if you want to see the effect of price manipulation. Up fast; down fast.

 

 

 

Do I care? Well, I kept an eye on the graphs, so I've bought myself a new RB for 255k. I'm not unhappy about that. Actually I bought a spare at that price because I'm pretty sure there'll be a bounce (have a look at the 20 day average before the [bleep]e). I'll just keep it until the price goes over 300k again, I reckon.

 

 

 

If this was price manipulation, did it hurt anyone? I guess it would have been financially (in Runescape gold) painful for someone who thought they just couldn't live without a Regen Bracelet, or just didn't check the GE graphs, and paid up to 450k for something which they could have got for 255k a week earlier or later. It was a little frustrating for me to see them going for 450k when 'all I got was 347k' (even though that was almost 50k profit anyway).

 

 

 

But it's a game. They aren't dollars, they're Runescape gold coins. We aren't trading commodities, we're trading magical fish and bracelets which accelerate your hitpoint regain. Huh? This is not reality. However annoying any of the trading practices might be, they're in a game. And we all have the option, as most of us have in real life too, of taking it slow, checking the graphs, 'caveat emptor', don't buy on impulse, don't sell in haste.

 

 

 

Instead of the time I spent watching the graphs and playing the market on Regen bracelets, all to make 47k and buy a cheapie, I could have killed dragons and made probably 300k, or chopped yews, or fished or whatever. The person doing the manipulation could have done the same. They must have risked many millions, and if they'd seriously misjudged they could have lost half of that. It isn't as if there's no risk for the serious price manipulator - they can end up stuck with loads of an item and no buyers.

[Assume Nothing]

Gah, trying to think about it is hard.... I will have to edit this post soon. I say it's wrong, but there needs to be a solution to it, not just everyone agreeing 'oh it's wrong, it's soooo wrong'

[jettrider]

You can't call it right or wrong when it's such a gray area.

 

 

 

First, hoarding is not against the rules, but public manipulation is. So you and your buddies buying out Pharaoh's Sceptres are not breaking any rules, but people standing around or in clan chats or on forums saying "buy this item, it'll go up in price" are breaking the Item Scamming rule.

 

 

 

Also, very few of you actually appear to know how the real price manipulation works. Sitting around in Chessy's or ACIDY's chat is not being in a manipulating clan; that information is public. The real hoarding goes on in private forums and chatrooms with players who are actually rich, not just 10m tagalongs in public clan chats.

 

 

 

Manipulation is not really morally wrong, but for every winner, there is a loser. I am all for careful market watching but with such sudden [bleep]es and falls it's very easy to be unintentionally on the losing end. However, you need to be careful, and if an item is rising, think very carefully about why it is rising before putting an offer in for max. It's quite sad how many people are economically stupid and try to buy and sell at the wrong times. I also dislike how supply can be dried up by so few people and how certain items are at times unbuyable. However, I like to live outside the Grand Exchange, and I care little for the value of the items I use. Anything I need I have in my bank; everything I have, I need. I don't hold things hoping for them to [bleep]e up in value or put them in the Grand Exchange at minimum price. Any drops that I get go in a nice little stack in my bank until they [bleep]e in value.

[CampbellMC]

It can not really be defined as being right or wrong, it just exists. There is no way that this will ever be changed, and it is only people who know how to watch the market and how to predict people who will profit massively. I know that I and many of my friends prefer to merch outside of a clan. There is not that many items that clans can actually influence greatly, because anything with too huge of a supply the market can handle merchants buying it out, even if they are paying in the billions. You can watch certain items (Most common being barrows items, yew/magic seeds, certain potions and a few other high priced items) and see exactly when the normal rise and fall is, then you can buy the items for below medium price, and sure enough the next day a clan will buy them out.

[supercat]

it is wrong because it effects the whole rs econamy and makes people who are already rich even richer

[jettrider]

it is wrong because it effects the whole rs econamy and makes people who are already rich even richer

 

 

 

Apart from the bad spelling, those reasons don't make something wrong.

 

 

 

Every RS update affects the whole economy. Many things change the prices of a lot of items, yet they're not necessarily bad. Almost every update throws a few items into demand, for example, a quest that requires a few specific items to finish.

 

 

 

People who are rich should get richer faster than those who aren't, because if you have more money to invest, you should be able to use more items and therefore make a bigger profit.

 

 

 

Keep in mind I don't think manipulation is right or wrong, but you need to discuss the means of what happens, making vague statements won't help.

[Drakolord7]

I don't like it, and because I'm stubborn you'll never change my opinion. It should be a bannable offense IMO; its bug abuse (abuse the GE's flaws to raise prices) and Item Scamming (People lose GP due to the actions of another player).

[Darkblade20]

I can't help but giggle like some friend's 6 year-old little sister at some of the arguments being tossed on the table in this discussion.

 

 

 

Let me start by pointing out the misdirection of this entire argument. Nothing is being "manipulated" here. The GE serves a defined purpose, with it's own limitations and functions. What these so-called "merchant clans" are simply doing, is apply the existing GE functions in a way which serves to create a profit. As many people have stated, it amounts to something close to capitalism. No, the word that's flying over everyone's head is called exploitation. Generally, there are laws in place which essentially abolish the existence of exploitative practices. Where we fall short, though, is that Runescape is a game. There is no state, no government, and the established free-market has full rights to operate in it's purest form. This is simply purist capitalism, where merchant clans, a private business essentially, are free to control trade in an attempt to profit: Which defines capitalism. By all means strive for Jagex to radify some sort of "eSherman Act", but you have to understand, the GE is not flawed, the game's mechanics are fine, you cannot complain. What is happening here, is an realistic marketing strategy, is being applied to an unrealistic game.

 

 

 

As for everyone who keeps citing "The rich get richer." People are not born rich. Wealth does not come from a genie's lamp, or from a fruit-bearing tree. In order to become rich, a foundation has to be laid. People becomes rich, because they've worked hard to do so, and they amass even more wealth, because of the hard work they put in to get to where they currently are. There's no one to blame but yourself for any financial shortcomings. Any dingbat with eyes can discern a particular flow in the market, and merchant clans take advantage of their ocular endowments, grasp the reigns of the horse, and take the throne for themselves. This is how the medieval era took place, and people who couldn't handle it, normally died off. Simply put, try harder.

[mmmcannibalism]

I can't help but giggle like some friend's 6 year-old little sister at some of the arguments being tossed on the table in this discussion.

 

 

 

Let me start by pointing out the misdirection of this entire argument. Nothing is being "manipulated" here. The GE serves a defined purpose, with it's own limitations and functions. What these so-called "merchant clans" are simply doing, is apply the existing GE functions in a way which serves to create a profit. As many people have stated, it amounts to something close to capitalism. No, the word that's flying over everyone's head is called exploitation. Generally, there are laws in place which essentially abolish the existence of exploitative practices. Where we fall short, though, is that Runescape is a game. There is no state, no government, and the established free-market has full rights to operate in it's purest form. This is simply purist capitalism, where merchant clans, a private business essentially, are free to control trade in an attempt to profit: Which defines capitalism. By all means strive for Jagex to radify some sort of "eSherman Act", but you have to understand, the GE is not flawed, the game's mechanics are fine, you cannot complain. What is happening here, is an realistic marketing strategy, is being applied to an unrealistic game.

 

 

 

As for everyone who keeps citing "The rich get richer." People are not born rich. Wealth does not come from a genie's lamp, or from a fruit-bearing tree. In order to become rich, a foundation has to be laid. People becomes rich, because they've worked hard to do so, and they amass even more wealth, because of the hard work they put in to get to where they currently are. There's no one to blame but yourself for any financial shortcomings. Any dingbat with eyes can discern a particular flow in the market, and merchant clans take advantage of their ocular endowments, grasp the reigns of the horse, and take the throne for themselves. This is how the medieval era took place, and people who couldn't handle it, normally died off. Simply put, try harder.

 

 

 

Im not entirely sure of your opinion, but I do have to say that was quite an amazing post; especially the references to some actual economic regulations.

[quelmotz]

If I'm not wrong, there's a difference between price manipulation and merchant-ing.

 

 

 

Merchant-ing is using strategy and skills of predicting the economy as accurately as possible to buy low and sell high. IMO, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with this, and I'm sure many people will agree with me. Merchant-ing needs skill. Such that not any man on the street will know how to do it.

 

 

 

Price manipulators use large amounts of money to change prices. They usually work in clans/large groups. I don't think its right, but it shouldn't be a bannable offence either. I mean, if they're willing to waste money to do pointless things like this... :roll:

 

 

 

You have to state what you mean - price manipulation or merchant-ing. I know your title is "price manipulation", but there are hints of merchant-ing in your posts.

[tedbundty]

It's wrong, but not against the rules.

 

 

 

Just like Thieving and Pking.

[All_Is_Great]

^ :P

 

 

 

I think it's against the spirit of the game, but not bannable.

 

 

 

All we gotta do is when the item is being merched, all of us non-price manipulators sit still for a week or two, and wait for the price to fall, since when they dump, they sell at min, and if no one buys, then the price will keep going down until it reaches a stable level again. Maybe someone should start an anti-price manipulating clan, just to inform the masses of people which items are being merched and we should stay away from.