Price manipulation: right or wrong?

[tedbundty]

^ :P

 

 

 

I think it's against the spirit of the game, but not bannable.

 

 

 

All we gotta do is when the item is being merched, all of us non-price manipulators sit still for a week or two, and wait for the price to fall, since when they dump, they sell at min, and if no one buys, then the price will keep going down until it reaches a stable level again. Maybe someone should start an anti-price manipulating clan, just to inform the masses of people which items are being merched and we should stay away from.

 

 

 

 

 

Haha it's funny you say that cuz I'm the leader of a clan who does that, and every item we've done so far has been succesful.

[Guest]

Unless it is specifically against any rules, its right. If Jagex frowns upon this practice so much then they should ban it. If they are saying 'we dont like it but its legal' then it will just continue anyway.

 

 

 

I'm no economist but I do know that if something is too high a price, I won't buy it. I'd rather wait it out.

[sees_all1]

Unless it is specifically against any rules, its right.

 

 

 

this logic fails.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lying to people isn't against the rules, but it isn't right. Many more examples of this IRL, and runescape too.

[Guest]

In the context of the game, its right. Your lying example is also a prime example of game context. No issues with a lie as it is, but put this sort of thing into an item trade it could come under scamming rules or someone telling a lie to get someones password or encouraging to break rules. Price manipulation at this moment is not banned as yet, so its right.

[All_Is_Great]

I don't think all things are black and white, if they aren't wrong, it doesn't neccessarily mean it's right. I mean, it could be a double edged sword. Manipulation will make some people richer, and they will think it's right, but it will really ruin some poorer players and the economy, because of taking advantage of the GE system, so it's wrong.

 

 

 

And lieing has both right and wrong. A right lie would to a lie to help, like to comfort someone, while a wrong lie, like you said can be scamming. Or a wrong lie without personal gain, but still causes the other person a lot of harm/time wasted, can still be considered wrong.

[quelmotz]

There are many things that aren't right that the rules don't cover.

 

 

 

Lying, kill stealing, etc.

 

 

 

It's impossible to say everything is either right or wrong in the rules.

[Owned_Nex]

In the context of the game, its right. Your lying example is also a prime example of game context. No issues with a lie as it is, but put this sort of thing into an item trade it could come under scamming rules or someone telling a lie to get someones password or encouraging to break rules. Price manipulation at this moment is not banned as yet, so its right.

 

You are confusing "right" with "allowed"

[Guest]

The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. If it's wrong it should be banned. It isn't banned so its right. The irony of this is that those who are so against it would not complain if they had items that they sold and profited from it. Nor would they admit to such a thing.

[quelmotz]

The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. If it's wrong it should be banned. It isn't banned so its right. The irony of this is that those who are so against it would not complain if they had items that they sold and profited from it. Nor would they admit to such a thing.

 

 

 

So apparently the title can't be wrong?

 

 

 

Honestly, something being WRONG doesn't mean it needs to be banned. Lying is an obvious example. It is clearly wrong, but it is impossible for Jagex to create a system to identify liars or waste a lot of manpower doing it themselves.

[Sir_Kurity]

If you ask me, price manipulation is fast, easy money, and its because the grand exchange is so easy to manipulate. Why not take the advantage.

 

 

 

Its not against the rules, and even if it was it would never be enforceable.

[quelmotz]

If you ask me, price manipulation is fast, easy money, and its because the grand exchange is so easy to manipulate. Why not take the advantage.

 

 

 

Its not against the rules, and even if it was it would never be enforceable.

 

 

 

You better check with Jagex before you say such things...

 

 

 

The GE is not meant to be manipulated by an organised syndicate. It's supposed to be manipulated by SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

[Sir_Kurity]

IT WOULD NEVER BE ENFORCEABLE.

 

 

 

There will always be private merch clans (not those effed up ones like chessys) that because they dont advertise or anything, would never be caught.

[Guest]

The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. If it's wrong it should be banned. It isn't banned so its right. The irony of this is that those who are so against it would not complain if they had items that they sold and profited from it. Nor would they admit to such a thing.

 

 

 

So apparently the title can't be wrong?

 

 

 

Honestly, something being WRONG doesn't mean it needs to be banned. Lying is an obvious example. It is clearly wrong, but it is impossible for Jagex to create a system to identify liars or waste a lot of manpower doing it themselves.

 

 

 

Junk trading also forces people to pay over the odds for some items too. Is this not the same type of thing to make you pay an over-the-top price? Mod MMG actually condones junk trading as per his statements a while back stating it actually provides a use for those items.

 

 

 

You're telling me you'd never take advantage of such a thing if you just happened to have an item that went to a fairly high price? Leaving out capping, lets say item X is normally worth 5m and you had one. It surges to 8m and you know that's way above the normal price. You wouldn't try to sell it, knowing its price will drop again? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We're all guilty of some form of price manipulation at some time. You've never sold something in the g.e. at the highest price? This affects it. If Jagex hit people with price manipulation bans there would be very few of us left.

 

 

 

In the end we all want to pay the lowest prices and recieve the highest prices for our stuff. If players weren't so daft as to pay over the odds for things in the first place and had a bit of patience this wouldn't happen.

[All_Is_Great]

The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. If it's wrong it should be banned. It isn't banned so its right. The irony of this is that those who are so against it would not complain if they had items that they sold and profited from it. Nor would they admit to such a thing.

 

 

 

So apparently the title can't be wrong?

 

 

 

Honestly, something being WRONG doesn't mean it needs to be banned. Lying is an obvious example. It is clearly wrong, but it is impossible for Jagex to create a system to identify liars or waste a lot of manpower doing it themselves.

 

 

 

Junk trading also forces people to pay over the odds for some items too. Is this not the same type of thing to make you pay an over-the-top price? Mod MMG actually condones junk trading as per his statements a while back stating it actually provides a use for those items.

 

 

 

You're telling me you'd never take advantage of such a thing if you just happened to have an item that went to a fairly high price? Leaving out capping, lets say item X is normally worth 5m and you had one. It surges to 8m and you know that's way above the normal price. You wouldn't try to sell it, knowing its price will drop again? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We're all guilty of some form of price manipulation at some time. You've never sold something in the g.e. at the highest price? This affects it. If Jagex hit people with price manipulation bans there would be very few of us left.

 

 

 

In the end we all want to pay the lowest prices and recieve the highest prices for our stuff. If players weren't so daft as to pay over the odds for things in the first place and had a bit of patience this wouldn't happen.

 

 

 

One person selling one item because he was following the graph is not price manipulation. It's more like merchanting, knowing when to buy and when to sell. Price manipulation is when an ORGANIZED group buys out the entire stock of an item and doesn't sell it. This will cause people to pay max to buy the item but they still won't be able to buy it, this keeps going in a circle until the group decides to dump the item and make millions of profit, while the people who bought the items lose millions.

 

 

 

^That is like organised crime. Irl, lately, I saw this program on chinese television (im visiting atm), about the prices of steel going up buy $700/ton, then dropping buy $600/ton the next couple of days. The government has already ARRESTED people to do with it, I heard it was a group of four australians.

[quelmotz]

IT WOULD NEVER BE ENFORCEABLE.

 

 

 

There will always be private merch clans (not those effed up ones like chessys) that because they dont advertise or anything, would never be caught.

 

 

 

Heard of computer experts? :roll:

 

 

 

They could enforce it if they want to, it's a matter of time/cost vs results.

 

 

 

The title of this thread is 'right or wrong'. If it's wrong it should be banned. It isn't banned so its right. The irony of this is that those who are so against it would not complain if they had items that they sold and profited from it. Nor would they admit to such a thing.

 

 

 

So apparently the title can't be wrong?

 

 

 

Honestly, something being WRONG doesn't mean it needs to be banned. Lying is an obvious example. It is clearly wrong, but it is impossible for Jagex to create a system to identify liars or waste a lot of manpower doing it themselves.

 

 

 

Junk trading also forces people to pay over the odds for some items too. Is this not the same type of thing to make you pay an over-the-top price? Mod MMG actually condones junk trading as per his statements a while back stating it actually provides a use for those items.

 

 

 

You're telling me you'd never take advantage of such a thing if you just happened to have an item that went to a fairly high price? Leaving out capping, lets say item X is normally worth 5m and you had one. It surges to 8m and you know that's way above the normal price. You wouldn't try to sell it, knowing its price will drop again? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We're all guilty of some form of price manipulation at some time. You've never sold something in the g.e. at the highest price? This affects it. If Jagex hit people with price manipulation bans there would be very few of us left.

 

 

 

In the end we all want to pay the lowest prices and recieve the highest prices for our stuff. If players weren't so daft as to pay over the odds for things in the first place and had a bit of patience this wouldn't happen.

 

 

 

One person selling one item because he was following the graph is not price manipulation. It's more like merchanting, knowing when to buy and when to sell. Price manipulation is when an ORGANIZED group buys out the entire stock of an item and doesn't sell it. This will cause people to pay max to buy the item but they still won't be able to buy it, this keeps going in a circle until the group decides to dump the item and make millions of profit, while the people who bought the items lose millions.

 

 

 

^That is like organised crime. Irl, lately, I saw this program on chinese television (im visiting atm), about the prices of steel going up buy $700/ton, then dropping buy $600/ton the next couple of days. The government has already ARRESTED people to do with it, I heard it was a group of four australians.

 

 

 

Exactly. Jrhairychest apparently mixed up merchanting and price manipulation.

 

 

 

Merchanting is COMPLETELY legal, it's just buy low sell high. Merchants DO NOT influence the market in any way, they just watch out and try to predict the market so they can buy low and sell high for a profit.

 

 

 

Price Manipulation is using sheer force of money buying a product to lower its price. This is illegal, and as allisgreat said, people HAVE BEEN ARRESTED for this kind of stuff. This is unfair for the normal merchants and investors.

[Guest]

Not at all. The points I'm trying to make are:

 

 

 

1) If price manipulation is so bad, and you had items that rocketed because of it, you're telling me you would not take advantage of it? I see you have conveniently overlooked this point. I don't think there is anyone here who wouldn't.

 

 

 

2) You can moan about price manipulation clans doing this, and their practices being illegal in rl all you want. In RS its not against the rules, so the RS law is on the side of the price manipulation clans for the time being. Unless Jagex change their tune on it its going to continue whether you like it or not.

 

 

 

3) Merchants affect prices, ableit less heavily. This is done much more in a much more subtle way but they're affecting prices. Its quite ironic because before price manipulation, people were moaning about merch's affecting prices. Now merch's are the good guys? :roll:

 

 

 

4) Junk trading also makes people buy for over the odds, yet Mod MMG loves it. Its like buying a car but the guy in the showroom says 'The cars sale value is £10,000 but you'll have to buy this junk too so I want £12,000'. This would be frowned upon in rl just like your points about price manipulation.

 

 

 

5) Your real problems lie in two things. The G.E. system itself with its fluctuating price system and the desperation of players who panic sell when prices of things crash.

[All_Is_Great]

1) What? overlooked what point? That people will sell items when they rise? Of course they will, but they aren't manipulating the prices, the people buying it are. But if you say "if you don't sell, then they won't buy" but this will be going around in circles, because I'd say "if they don't drive the prices up, I won't sell". It's pointless. Plus, they merch commonly traded items that aren't easily supplied, barrows armour comes to mind (last time I joined chessy's chat to see what they were merching was ahrimtop1700k and torag helm 1500k), so people don't realise that prices are starting to climb after the mass buyout in the beginning. And those clans are the ones who initiate it, so the fault is theirs. My english isn't the most persuasive as it's not my first language but I hope I made my point clear.

 

 

 

2) Ok, that we can really argue with, because it is a fact. But what we're trying to do is make Jagex FIX it, unfourtunately, they never hurry except on stuff that isn't broken :|

 

 

 

3) Merchants don't affect prices, even if they do, its more like a sideways "s" shape, which is what normal markets do, so its fine. But the price manipulators make it a "J" shape, which is totally different, and wrong.

 

 

 

4) Junk trading isn't price manipulation, you understand that right? There's a (somewhat) stable market price for high end items, and most players accept that price. Only because the GE price isn't up that high, that's why they junk trade.

 

 

 

5) Yea, that's why we're debating whether taking advantage of the GE flaw is right or wrong. Also, paniccing when prices crash is pretty normal, I doubt the average player can bare to watch their items drop by the millions and not do a thing. What if the prices never rise back up? OK sure the more you sell for min, the faster it falls, but that's also a problem with the GE, which makes price manipulation possible.

 

 

 

Anyways, I have another example of price manipulation very similar to the GE system, I just CAN"T remember the name of the movie :x (I saw it on an AirCanada flight)

 

 

 

So it starts with this man (I believe his name is Maxwell, but I honesly cannot remember), and he works at Wall ST. He's leading a group of people on the market, and he's telling them "Buy, Buy, BUy", this drives the prices up. At the same time, another company watching the same stock begins to realize the rise, so they too start buying, but they can't catch up with the prices so they fall behind. Then suddenly, after achieving a set price, Maxwell snaps his fingers and says "Sell." One word, and the prices plummet, the other company bought the falling stock and realized they've just been scammed.

 

That's just the beginning though, there's more story later on. Now, if someone could please tell me the name of the movie :pray:

 

Oh, here's what happens after:

 

He goes to the country, where his father? owns a vineyard. He meets a girl, a girl who knew him when they were little, but grew apart, and he falls for her. In the end, he decides not to go back to the city and continues his life peacefully on the yard.

[Guest]

1) What? overlooked what point? That people will sell items when they rise? Of course they will, but they aren't manipulating the prices, the people buying it are. But if you say "if you don't sell, then they won't buy" but this will be going around in circles, because I'd say "if they don't drive the prices up, I won't sell". It's pointless. Plus, they merch commonly traded items that aren't easily supplied, barrows armour comes to mind (last time I joined chessy's chat to see what they were merching was ahrimtop1700k and torag helm 1500k), so people don't realise that prices are starting to climb after the mass buyout in the beginning. And those clans are the ones who initiate it, so the fault is theirs. My english isn't the most persuasive as it's not my first language but I hope I made my point clear.

 

 

 

So you're honestly saying you've never sold anything where the price has been manipulated? You've never profited from it? Would you, if you had that item? I don't think anyone on this thread can't say they honestly wouldn't. Your part 'That people will sell items when they rise? Of course they will, but they aren't manipulating the prices' smacks of double standards. These people are also profiting from it.

 

 

 

 

2) Ok, that we can really argue with, because it is a fact. But what we're trying to do is make Jagex FIX it, unfourtunately, they never hurry except on stuff that isn't broken :|

 

 

 

So it is a G.E fault then.

 

 

 

 

3) Merchants don't affect prices, even if they do, its more like a sideways "s" shape, which is what normal markets do, so its fine. But the price manipulators make it a "J" shape, which is totally different, and wrong.

 

 

 

Yes they do. If they buy/sell in bulk then of course they affect prices. If it wasn't price manipulators, you'd be posting here about merch's affecting the prices instead.

 

 

 

 

4) Junk trading isn't price manipulation, you understand that right? There's a (somewhat) stable market price for high end items, and most players accept that price. Only because the GE price isn't up that high, that's why they junk trade.

 

 

 

 

So what you're saying is that price manipulation is wrong, but forcing players to buy junk to enhance a price is right? Even though both would be illegal in rl, which was the point you were making. Correct? So manipulation is unnacceptable but junk trading is right? Is this not a case of you having double standards?

 

 

 

 

5) Yea, that's why we're debating whether taking advantage of the GE flaw is right or wrong. Also, paniccing when prices crash is pretty normal, I doubt the average player can bare to watch their items drop by the millions and not do a thing. What if the prices never rise back up? OK sure the more you sell for min, the faster it falls, but that's also a problem with the GE, which makes price manipulation possible.

 

 

 

Anyways, I have another example of price manipulation very similar to the GE system, I just CAN"T remember the name of the movie :x (I saw it on an AirCanada flight)

 

 

 

So it starts with this man (I believe his name is Maxwell, but I honesly cannot remember), and he works at Wall ST. He's leading a group of people on the market, and he's telling them "Buy, Buy, BUy", this drives the prices up. At the same time, another company watching the same stock begins to realize the rise, so they too start buying, but they can't catch up with the prices so they fall behind. Then suddenly, after achieving a set price, Maxwell snaps his fingers and says "Sell." One word, and the prices plummet, the other company bought the falling stock and realized they've just been scammed.

 

That's just the beginning though, there's more story later on. Now, if someone could please tell me the name of the movie :pray:

 

Oh, here's what happens after:

 

He goes to the country, where his father? owns a vineyard. He meets a girl, a girl who knew him when they were little, but grew apart, and he falls for her. In the end, he decides not to go back to the city and continues his life peacefully on the yard.

 

 

 

Not sure what film this is, but it sounds similar to the film 'Trading Places' with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd. So technically its a fault with the G.E. and with players themselves. So shouldn't this be a post about the G.E. needing to be fixed? Players will always do what they can get away with.

[All_Is_Great]

[hide=5 separate points]

1) What? overlooked what point? That people will sell items when they rise? Of course they will, but they aren't manipulating the prices, the people buying it are. But if you say "if you don't sell, then they won't buy" but this will be going around in circles, because I'd say "if they don't drive the prices up, I won't sell". It's pointless. Plus, they merch commonly traded items that aren't easily supplied, barrows armour comes to mind (last time I joined chessy's chat to see what they were merching was ahrimtop1700k and torag helm 1500k), so people don't realise that prices are starting to climb after the mass buyout in the beginning. And those clans are the ones who initiate it, so the fault is theirs. My english isn't the most persuasive as it's not my first language but I hope I made my point clear.

 

 

 

So you're honestly saying you've never sold anything where the price has been manipulated? You've never profited from it? Would you, if you had that item? I don't think anyone on this thread can't say they honestly wouldn't. Your part 'That people will sell items when they rise? Of course they will, but they aren't manipulating the prices' smacks of double standards. These people are also profiting from it.

 

 

 

 

2) Ok, that we can really argue with, because it is a fact. But what we're trying to do is make Jagex FIX it, unfourtunately, they never hurry except on stuff that isn't broken :|

 

 

 

So it is a G.E fault then.

 

 

 

 

3) Merchants don't affect prices, even if they do, its more like a sideways "s" shape, which is what normal markets do, so its fine. But the price manipulators make it a "J" shape, which is totally different, and wrong.

 

 

 

Yes they do. If they buy/sell in bulk then of course they affect prices. If it wasn't price manipulators, you'd be posting here about merch's affecting the prices instead.

 

 

 

 

4) Junk trading isn't price manipulation, you understand that right? There's a (somewhat) stable market price for high end items, and most players accept that price. Only because the GE price isn't up that high, that's why they junk trade.

 

 

 

 

So what you're saying is that price manipulation is wrong, but forcing players to buy junk to enhance a price is right? Even though both would be illegal in rl, which was the point you were making. Correct? So manipulation is unnacceptable but junk trading is right? Is this not a case of you having double standards?

 

 

 

 

5) Yea, that's why we're debating whether taking advantage of the GE flaw is right or wrong. Also, paniccing when prices crash is pretty normal, I doubt the average player can bare to watch their items drop by the millions and not do a thing. What if the prices never rise back up? OK sure the more you sell for min, the faster it falls, but that's also a problem with the GE, which makes price manipulation possible.

 

 

 

Anyways, I have another example of price manipulation very similar to the GE system, I just CAN"T remember the name of the movie :x (I saw it on an AirCanada flight)

 

 

 

So it starts with this man (I believe his name is Maxwell, but I honesly cannot remember), and he works at Wall ST. He's leading a group of people on the market, and he's telling them "Buy, Buy, BUy", this drives the prices up. At the same time, another company watching the same stock begins to realize the rise, so they too start buying, but they can't catch up with the prices so they fall behind. Then suddenly, after achieving a set price, Maxwell snaps his fingers and says "Sell." One word, and the prices plummet, the other company bought the falling stock and realized they've just been scammed.

 

That's just the beginning though, there's more story later on. Now, if someone could please tell me the name of the movie :pray:

 

Oh, here's what happens after:

 

He goes to the country, where his father? owns a vineyard. He meets a girl, a girl who knew him when they were little, but grew apart, and he falls for her. In the end, he decides not to go back to the city and continues his life peacefully on the yard.

 

 

 

Not sure what film this is, but it sounds similar to the film 'Trading Places' with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd. So technically its a fault with the G.E. and with players themselves. So shouldn't this be a post about the G.E. needing to be fixed? Players will always do what they can get away with.

[/hide]

 

 

 

1. Can you tell me how your edition of price manipulation works? Here's mine, clan x decides to buy out guthan platebodies. They put in hordes of offers on max. When they buy all of the current g platebodies on the market, the rest of the demand will force the price up. This will catch the attention or your average player, and they will in turn sell their platebodies. Then the stock runs out again, until more people sell. This continues in a cycle until the clan decides to dump. This is when the item crashes, but many people will have offers on the GE for G platebodies and they will buy theirs. The price drop is because supply > demand, but eventually, the clan sells all of their items and the item stablelizes again. I have sold stuff when they were beginning their rise, but that doesnt mean I manipulated the market. The CLAN that decided to mass buy the item manipulated the market, people who sell their items due to price rise didn't. They cant really be called victims, but its more like following a trend.

 

 

 

2. No, it's Jagex's fault, because they created the GE. How can the GE be faulted? It isn't alive, its being controlled by Jagex. It's like saying "its not our fault that the earth is warming every year, its the CO2's fault for clogging up our atmosphere". But in reality, its our human's fault, because we produce WAY too much CO2 every year. I know it's probably not the best example, but it made sense to me, hopefully to you as well.

 

 

 

3. You fail at reading -.- . I said merchants affect prices in a sideways "s" shape. Which is absolutely normal. A sideways "s" is what a normal stock would look like too. Price manipulators on the other hand, causes a very sharp rise to the item, like a "J". You see? It almost goes up vertically. And what's this about me posting here about merch's affecting the price? That has nothing to do with this thread. But for the record, I don't care about a merch affecting the price, because it is very small, like I said, a sideways "s".

 

 

 

4. Junk trading and price manipulation is totally different. Junk trading is because the GE price DOESN"T MATCH the market value, while price manipulating is making the price of a fairly stable item rise steeply due to false demand. Junk trading doesn't have anything to do with price manipulation. And I can't think of any ideas for junk trading. The only "junk trading" in rl is when a shop sells A + B for lets say $230 dollars. With item A being a commonly used thing like a microwave. But the shop is trying to get rid of item B, say a unicycle? (I don't know many shops that sell microwaves AND unicycles but w/e). So they put them together in a deal. Much like the Buy one get one 1/2 off thing.

 

 

 

5. Yes it is a fault with the GE, but we're debating whether or not taking advantage of this fault is right or wrong. It's not about fixing the GE (although that would be very nice). I said "its a problem with the GE, which makes price manipulation possible" in response to your statement about players paniccing. If you read my entire answer to question 5, i'm sure you'd understand, instead of just reading the last sentence and mistaking my point.

 

 

 

My point is price manipulation is wrong.

[Guest]

 

1. Can you tell me how your edition of price manipulation works? Here's mine, clan x decides to buy out guthan platebodies. They put in hordes of offers on max. When they buy all of the current g platebodies on the market, the rest of the demand will force the price up. This will catch the attention or your average player, and they will in turn sell their platebodies. Then the stock runs out again, until more people sell. This continues in a cycle until the clan decides to dump. This is when the item crashes, but many people will have offers on the GE for G platebodies and they will buy theirs. The price drop is because supply > demand, but eventually, the clan sells all of their items and the item stablelizes again. I have sold stuff when they were beginning their rise, but that doesnt mean I manipulated the market. The CLAN that decided to mass buy the item manipulated the market, people who sell their items due to price rise didn't. They cant really be called victims, but its more like following a trend.

 

 

 

 

Three points stand out here -

 

 

 

'This will catch the attention or your average player, and they will in turn sell their platebodies'. So players realise the price is going up and so sell. The average player wants to make a profit so they jump on. Directly or indirectly their own 'wants' contribute to this rise.

 

 

 

'I have sold stuff when they were beginning their rise, but that doesnt mean I manipulated the market' - You contribute to it. What, you 'accidentally' contributed to these rises? If you knew the prices were going up, you decided to sell, then you knowingly contributed to manipulating the market. What makes you any different or any less guilty than those you oppose?

 

 

 

'The CLAN that decided to mass buy the item manipulated the market, people who sell their items due to price rise didn't.' - So the average player wasn't guilty of wanting to make a profit? Are you more peeved that the average player made a small profit and the clan makes a large one?

 

 

 

 

2. No, it's Jagex's fault, because they created the GE. How can the GE be faulted? It isn't alive, its being controlled by Jagex. It's like saying "its not our fault that the earth is warming every year, its the CO2's fault for clogging up our atmosphere". But in reality, its our human's fault, because we produce WAY too much CO2 every year. I know it's probably not the best example, but it made sense to me, hopefully to you as well.

 

 

 

 

So whose fault is it? Jagex? The manipulation clans? Average players'? Merchants?

 

 

 

 

3. You fail at reading -.- . I said merchants affect prices in a sideways "s" shape. Which is absolutely normal. A sideways "s" is what a normal stock would look like too. Price manipulators on the other hand, causes a very sharp rise to the item, like a "J". You see? It almost goes up vertically. And what's this about me posting here about merch's affecting the price? That has nothing to do with this thread. But for the record, I don't care about a merch affecting the price, because it is very small, like I said, a sideways "s".

 

 

 

 

I don't fail at reading, I just look at the points for what they are.

 

My point is that before manipulation, merch's tended to control prices. Merchants used to be complained about all the time for doing this, but now it seems to be the manipulators. Yet the only significant difference is sharp rise for manipulators compared to a slower rises from merchants. Either way both manipulate the price for their own ends but you're unhappy that the rise is so sharp. If the manipulators were not doing this, you'd find someone else to complain about i.e. the merch's.

 

 

 

 

4. Junk trading and price manipulation is totally different. Junk trading is because the GE price DOESN"T MATCH the market value, while price manipulating is making the price of a fairly stable item rise steeply due to false demand. Junk trading doesn't have anything to do with price manipulation. And I can't think of any ideas for junk trading. The only "junk trading" in rl is when a shop sells A + B for lets say $230 dollars. With item A being a commonly used thing like a microwave. But the shop is trying to get rid of item B, say a unicycle? (I don't know many shops that sell microwaves AND unicycles but w/e). So they put them together in a deal. Much like the Buy one get one 1/2 off thing.

 

 

 

 

You have been complaining about manipulators controlling G.E. prices buts its ok to force players to buy junk along with a trade? This is a form of price manipulation in itself. If I want certain items I'm forced to buy x amount of junk for an item that should cost a lesser price. If I'm going by your rules I should be paying a market price and not be manipulated into paying for more.......you get it now? Oh and in RL, would you buy a microwave and feel forced to buy a unicycle? No you would report it to the authorities.

 

 

 

The point I made is that in RL junk trades and price maniplation are BOTH illegal yet you think junk trading is ok.

 

 

 

 

5. Yes it is a fault with the GE, but we're debating whether or not taking advantage of this fault is right or wrong. It's not about fixing the GE (although that would be very nice). I said "its a problem with the GE, which makes price manipulation possible" in response to your statement about players paniccing. If you read my entire answer to question 5, i'm sure you'd understand, instead of just reading the last sentence and mistaking my point.

 

 

 

My point is price manipulation is wrong.

 

 

 

Is this really a flaw, or a clever bunch of players who understood how the thing worked, got together and made it work for their own ends? They take risks with their own cash because if their plans don't work they can end up losing more than they make. Personally I prefer skilling.

 

 

 

Oh......and its not against any rules as yet, so until that time its a banned practice then its right.

[All_Is_Great]

Jrhairy, you say you read, but sometimes, you still have problems interpreting my points. (I hope my english isn't THAT bad, or else I'll never graduate :? )

 

 

 

First of all, I'd like to address the differences between merch and a price manipulating clan.

 

 

 

A merch is a single individual, who buys stuff at low, then sells at medium-high. AKA item flipping. Sometimes, this doesn't even change prices! Say for example, a while ago, I bought 2 zamorak shields at 23k below med price. Then 4 hours later, I sold both for med. The price didn't change once during this time. Even if the prices do change, its very little, and is not considered price manipulation.

 

 

 

Price manipulation is when a clan creates false demand by putting in thousands of offers for a single item at max GE price. This causes the price to rise, which is a manipulation. If you can't understand the difference and think each person merching for themselves is price manipulating, then this debate can't go any further. One last time, by price manipulation, we mean the ORGANISED clans that have plans on when to buy and when to sell the item.

 

 

 

Also, how hard is it to differ between a sideways "s" and a "J". I thought the examples I gave were pretty clear. A normal stock acts like a sideways "s" with little rises and falls each day (maybe with an overall gain/loss in a period of 3 months), but still relatively stable day by day. A "J" is when an item skyrockets in a very short period of time, and this doesn't happen with a normal economy.

 

 

 

1. Can you tell me how your edition of price manipulation works? Here's mine, clan x decides to buy out guthan platebodies. They put in hordes of offers on max. When they buy all of the current g platebodies on the market, the rest of the demand will force the price up. This will catch the attention or your average player, and they will in turn sell their platebodies. Then the stock runs out again, until more people sell. This continues in a cycle until the clan decides to dump. This is when the item crashes, but many people will have offers on the GE for G platebodies and they will buy theirs. The price drop is because supply > demand, but eventually, the clan sells all of their items and the item stablelizes again. I have sold stuff when they were beginning their rise, but that doesnt mean I manipulated the market. The CLAN that decided to mass buy the item manipulated the market, people who sell their items due to price rise didn't. They cant really be called victims, but its more like following a trend.

 

 

 

Can you tell me what your version of price manipulation is? Otherwise it is difficult to talk to you about the people who sell items on the rise.

 

You're accusing these players of contributing to price manipulation, saying if they don't sell, there won't be manipulation. But we know that's not possible, as people will sell their stuff if they see it's price increase. Some people hold onto it longer than others for more profit, but that's beside the point. The "want" you use to accuse average players is quite weak. I have to admit that everyone wants profit, but these people are not the one INITIATING the price manipulation. They aren't even those 10m tag alongs in Chessy's or ACID's clan chat. They are simply people who own one or two pieces of equipment that are being merched. The clans INITIATING the price manipulation is the ones at fault, not the ones who simply sell a couple items for a little more than they bought it for. You follow?

 

 

 

Finally, junk trading. It seems we differ on what we think is junk trading as well. so i'm going to give you my version again.

 

 

 

Let's say Item A is worth 10m on the GE, but it's real value decided by players is at 25m. Then players are going to use 15m junk to even the trade. A junk trade happens when both people know it's market value and the junk isn't forced upon either player. The item itself isn't going to be sold/bought on the GE for 10m. However, there will be offers on the GE in hope for a lucky buy off of an unknowing customer, still, over time, the price on the GE will match the market price, and that's when people will start trading the item on the GE.

 

 

 

So, junk trading is NOTHING like price manipulation.

 

 

 

As for junk trading in the real world, the junk isn't usually forced either. The microwave example was poor, but here's a better one. Many shops in China use this to lure costumers (its not illegal, but it's still wrong so don't fall for it).

 

 

 

The shop will say "if you spend 1000 on certain appliances in our store, you can get 300 credit!" But those 300 credit can only be spent on items that aren't useful. But if you spend, say, 900, then you'll very easily be lured to spending another 100 for the 300 credit, thinking you get 300 back, but in reality, its just 300 of useless crap. So in the end, you spend 100 extra.

 

 

 

Don't use this as an arguement saying "in rl its wrong but in rs its right?" or crap like that, becaue junk trading in rl and rs and COMPLETELY different (one if not forced, and both parties agree; while the other can be called a scam), while price manipulation in both are the same.

[Guest]

Allisgreat - First of all your English is absolutely fine. Your comprehension of facts isnt. I know exactly what price manipulation, merchanting and junk trading is. You dont answer my points properly which is why youre struggling with this. Actually listen and comprehend what is being said here:

 

 

 

You said 'I have sold stuff when they were beginning their rise, but that doesnt mean I manipulated the market'. Youre doing EXACTLY THAT when you do this. Youre contributing to this rise. You look and go oo, item x is going up so Ill sell. This line The clans INITIATING the price manipulation is the ones at fault, not the ones who simply sell a couple items for a little more than they bought it for. Excuse me? You have the nerve to blame a clan, even though youre quite happy to take a profit from it when the item is on the rise. On the one hand youre cursing them, on the other youre taking a sly swipe of profit from what that clan is doing. Thats why most if not all people cant argue with this point as theyve probably done it at some point or another. Oh and RS is an artificial economy so dont treat it like a real one.

 

 

 

Try answering this question properly as youve skirted around it Have you sold anything where the price has been manipulated, and therefore made a profit from it?

 

 

 

Your idea of merching is very small scale to what Im talking about. Proper merches dont deal in a few items like a few zammy shields and a helm. They mostly deal in bulks and/or rares. Dealing in bulk often manipulates the price. They may buy low one day then sell high the next. This also affects price and is another form of PRICE MANIPULATION. Granted its slower, but still manipulation. A merch has the same ideal of a manipulator Profit. Why do you think Jagex has not banned price manipulation? If it was as clear cut as you say it is it would have been banned a long time ago. Many of the merchants would probably end up banned too.

 

 

 

My use of junk trading was to illustrate a few points. In RL it would be illegal to force consumers to buy other stuff to make an item up to x price to artificially enhance its value, particularly if this stuff was junk. So you condone junk trades but not manipulation which is very contradictory. Youre very quick yourself to jump on the IRL point with your previous example.

 

 

 

Im going to be very honest with you. The more I hear the more get the feeling that its sour grapes on your part. Youre peeved at the fact that other people are making decent money within the game and maybe youre not. Maybe you should skill up a bit more so your skills become more profitable, merch on a bigger scale, do some slayer orno Id better not say join a clan.

[MattR]

I cant stand manipulators. It angers me when I save up for something that I really want, then once I have the money for it, its 2x as much. Or if I buy an item that is being manipulated, the the next day its 5m cheaper. -.-

 

 

 

I think that manipulation should be against the rules, much like how it is against the law in real life.

[All_Is_Great]

Allisgreat - First of all your English is absolutely fine. Your comprehension of facts isnt. I know exactly what price manipulation, merchanting and junk trading is. You dont answer my points properly which is why youre struggling with this. Actually listen and comprehend what is being said here:

 

 

 

You said 'I have sold stuff when they were beginning their rise, but that doesnt mean I manipulated the market'. Youre doing EXACTLY THAT when you do this. Youre contributing to this rise. You look and go oo, item x is going up so Ill sell. This line The clans INITIATING the price manipulation is the ones at fault, not the ones who simply sell a couple items for a little more than they bought it for. Excuse me? You have the nerve to blame a clan, even though youre quite happy to take a profit from it when the item is on the rise. On the one hand youre cursing them, on the other youre taking a sly swipe of profit from what that clan is doing. Thats why most if not all people cant argue with this point as theyve probably done it at some point or another. Oh and RS is an artificial economy so dont treat it like a real one.

 

 

 

Try answering this question properly as youve skirted around it Have you sold anything where the price has been manipulated, and therefore made a profit from it?

 

 

 

Your idea of merching is very small scale to what Im talking about. Proper merches dont deal in a few items like a few zammy shields and a helm. They mostly deal in bulks and/or rares. Dealing in bulk often manipulates the price. They may buy low one day then sell high the next. This also affects price and is another form of PRICE MANIPULATION. Granted its slower, but still manipulation. A merch has the same ideal of a manipulator Profit. Why do you think Jagex has not banned price manipulation? If it was as clear cut as you say it is it would have been banned a long time ago. Many of the merchants would probably end up banned too.

 

 

 

My use of junk trading was to illustrate a few points. In RL it would be illegal to force consumers to buy other stuff to make an item up to x price to artificially enhance its value, particularly if this stuff was junk. So you condone junk trades but not manipulation which is very contradictory. Youre very quick yourself to jump on the IRL point with your previous example.

 

 

 

Im going to be very honest with you. The more I hear the more get the feeling that its sour grapes on your part. Youre peeved at the fact that other people are making decent money within the game and maybe youre not. Maybe you should skill up a bit more so your skills become more profitable, merch on a bigger scale, do some slayer orno Id better not say join a clan.

 

 

 

To answer your question, yes, I have sold my whip when they rose. I sold at 2.3 or something, and it rose all the way to 3m. But your saying by selling my whip, I manipulated the market? I don't think so.

 

 

 

And I am not "quite happy to make profit while blaming a clan". You only think that because you think that by selling my item, I had manipulated the price. I didn't manipulate the price. One person selling the item isn't going to manipulate the price.

 

 

 

Do you know what makes the price on the GE go up? When demand > supply. The clans are creating FALSE demand, that is WAY larger than any supply from people selling items 1 by 1. That is why the price goes UP. If I didn't sell my item, the price would still go UP. Do you understand that part? Oh and RS's economy is very much like a real one.

 

 

 

The merchants you talk about must have hundreds of millions of gp to be able to manipulate a market by themselves. Most of the time, that isn't even enough, so they team up with other people with hundreds of millions and merch together. I would indeed consider this manipulation, but the merchants I'm talking about are people who flip around 20 rune sets perday, which doesn't manipulate the price one bit.

 

 

 

My example of IRL "junk" trading isn't against the law. It is a way to advertise, like "buy one get one 1/2 off". Saying that makes the person want to buy another, while they may not even need another item, so in the end, they THINK they save 1/2 off, but instead they are paying an extra 1/2. However, that isn't against the law. While on the other hand, price manipulation IS. People get arrested. So you accusing me of being contradictory doesn't make any sense.

 

 

 

And, no, it's not sour grapes on my part. I'm trying to debate a point, and since you keep brining up "you sell your item for profit too, so your part of manipulation" I have to argue that.

 

 

 

The main problem of you arguements is that you don't know what causes price manipulation. You think individuals selling a couple items on the rise is considered manipulation, and you think merchants are manipulators :roll: .

[Raiderej]

I lol'd when someone compared RS economy and US economy and compared both to capitalism, which neither are anymore. Free trade: no centralized control? I really missed those days.

 

 

 

For this RS price manipulation, the market controls supply and demand.

 

 

 

Pretend we're back in the old days with no price limits. This is perfectly fine. These buyouts are essentially temporary monopolies on certain items. While you might think this sucks, it's legit, because it's their money, their property. What happens is the demand increase and the price goes up to a point, where people just refuse to pay and find cheaper alternatives. The item then loses its value and someone can undercut the set price.

 

 

 

Fast forward to now. Oh cool trade limits (price ceilings and floors), an automated system that doesn't reflect the real market, and initial centralized control (great can't even escape fascism in RS). Now if you want something that's worth more than the system says, you have to wait for the system to catch up, enter the black market and take 'junk', or wait for some unwise player to sell. Likewise, if something is worth less than the system says, (which everyone hates) you have to either pay more, wait for it to come down, or the item becomes 'junk.'

 

 

 

So to answer, no, you can freely buy what you want if the other freely sells it. Supply and demand will always be around, and the same sheep who complained pre-fascism will complain post-fascism because fascism never solves anything. Learn about value, boycotts, and alternative sources.