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Price manipulation: right or wrong?


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#1
Guest__
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Post your thoughts.



I personally think its right...up to a point. For example, someone manipulated balls of wool, whos really going to suffer?



But, it (bleeps) me off when someone (this happend recently) buys out something ive been saving for. I woerked my (donkey) in f2p so i could afford a bandos GS. But no, someone HAD to manipulate it.

#2
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Right. :twss:



Well i never tried it myself (only because i'm too poor for that) but if someone is smart enough to outsmart the whole runescape community, then why they shouldn't use that for their own gain?
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#3
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Post your thoughts.




Surely in order for this to be a debate, you need to post your view? Because you know, those 3 words equate to spam.



Regardless of this, I shall impart my view on this:



Price Manipulation, simply put, is wrong. Just because the G.E. may be 'flawed' (who defines the flawed 'prices' anyway? Players too scared of change, that's who. But that is for another debate), doesn't mean that players should use things like junk trades or whatever to squeeze the price out of the players too stupid or impatient to go through the system JaGex would prefer us to use. I know some people who bought expensive items are angry at the fact that the G.E. nowhere near matches the price they paid for the item 'back in the day', but tbh times change. If everyone got back exactly what they put in for something, life would never be a dissapointment.



It's also wrong because it only favours who already have the GP to take advantage of it (the rich get richer, anyone?). Why should they be able to control how much profit they make? Surely it should be down to pure and simple supply and demand.

#4
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It's funny how you give a meaningless example to base your defense on (I mean, who really cares about wool? String amulet anyone?). For the record, I oppose price manipulation. Simply put, it means that we have to hear more prognosticators worrying about this economy again.



Also, what if you're trying to buy some commonly used resource, like monkfish? Someone would jack the price up to 600 each, and you'd never pay that. Would that be fair?

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#5
Canineteeth
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Its just wrong.

Let me start by saying - ITS AGAINST THE RULES.





With that covered I'll elaborate my thoughts (hard to do on a Wii). The G.E works on the rule of Supply Vs. Demand. By one person altering the balance, we suffer, G.E doesnt work how it should, and demand owns supply. It IS the rich get richer, which for some ok, like merchants, who merely ride the natural wave which in most cases actually stableize (SP, I know) it.

Price manipulators on the other hand take their 500m dollar Cruise ship and make waves that screw up everything. If monkfish were to be manipulated, it would be the hardest hitting manipulation. Many people use monkfish as a staple food, using it for slayer, lower boss (KBD, Mole, masses), PvP games and such. Then again, its traded so much that its hard for it to be affected.

#6
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I go with right. If someone has the money and the desire to do it, then they are fully within their rights to do it. There's no rule against it, and it's certainly an innovative technique for moneymaking. It's just another way to make cash, albeit at the expense of other players - but when you're in hot competition for a rune rock or a yew tree, are the people who boost their stats using familiars in the wrong? no, absolutely not. In that case you'd say it was a fair advantage and they were using the system the game is based on to their advantage, and good for them for doing it. You might not like it, because you don't get your resources as well, but they certainly aren't doing anything wrong. Price manipulation is the same way - they're not doing anything inherently wrong. Just because someone's unhappy that their guthan's set they were going to buy went up by a mil, doesn't mean the people that made inordinate amounts of money off of said change are wrong.



Hydra: How is it not supply and demand if someone chooses to buy up most of the stock of a certain item? There is supply, and they're demanding it. Isn't that what it's all about, not who is demanding it?



Makoto: If monkfish jacked up to 600 each and people stopped paying, they'd go down again, simple as that. That is basic economics - if nobody wants to buy it for a high price, it'll be sold for a lower one.



Canine: How is it against the rules? Where in the rules does it say you are not allowed to trade on the market? Because that's all they're doing. Also, your example is the same as Makoto's. If something goes up too high, it's not going to sell and therein lies the price manipulator's risk. They have to ride the currents as well and tell exactly when is the correct time to sell off, before the price outweighs what people are willing to pay. If a price goes too high, nobody will buy. If people are still buying, well, obviously the price isn't too high. People can grumble, but they'll still pay.
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#7
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Totally wrong. No need to say more. I'm trying to get full Guthans but some jerks are jacking the price way up! :evil: It's expensive enough already.
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#8
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Canine: How is it against the rules?


Well, Jagex moderators Pre-GE were very much against of any attempts to manipulate prices on their forums. That may be it.



I'm personally against it. If a few players to control the GE and crash multiple items, nothing is gained. It panics the rest of the player base, costs many others quite a bit of money, etc.

#9
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Up to a certain point, it's fine. Someone buying x amount of goods, and selling them for a profit is fine. But when a group of people, or an individual with deep pockets buys all the items in-stock from the G/E and manipulates the market, it's not really fair.



I remember reading a couple of days ago about Bandos Godswords, this is just one example, I'm sure there are many :)

#10
funnisam
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the problem is, it isnt just one person who does it. if it was one person then they are a merchant, but often now its just a group of wanna be merchants who decide to buy out an item. jagex have also said they do change it if they see evidence of price manipulation.



i hate it, because i have had over 4 different dfs's and zgs's so far, and have lost money from all of them, i didnt actually buy them for merching though, i actually used them. and i currently have a zgs, but i like it and if it falls to 20m, im still gonna keep it., because i enjoy using it.
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#11
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It's wrong in the sense that people are using it to their own advantage, people that are rich enough to do it, get richer, while everyone else who was working for that item or whatnot, end up getting poorer due to manipulated price increase. But isn't it the same with junk trading? Both aren't fair, but both still happen. It's just one of those things that can't exactly be helped. If it was you profiting millions off items, I'm sure you wouldn't stop either.

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#12
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Might be morally wrong, but that's it imo.



I checked through the rules and at least I don't see (might also be lack of coffee) which rule would it break. Basically people aren't being misled in the same fashion as it was before GE, people are just now affecting to the supply and demand with their own money and materials. In the other words people are doing collective investments in order to benefit from the property they already have. Playing with the markets like that might be immoral from some point of view, but basically it's nothing more than faster version of the main reason why people bought rares before GE: hoping the investment would get a nice interest.



People who can read the paragraphs and know the basic principals of the price structure can quite easily to predict the behaviour on certain items. Personally I've figured out that 5-30m worth items are the best as they are quite easy to "read" with small risk. Note that this "method" ( reading public information from the GE database and then predicting the price on formulas based on civilized belief) does not involve being part of the "inner circle". Only thing you're doing is that you're playing with the markets that the others are trying to manipulate.
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#13
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it isnt actually against the rules, but jagex have said that they try to combat price manipulation. which is a lie, because the price manipulators still do it.
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#14
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Price manipulation is part of the economy just like everything else. Often people are frustrated with money, both inrl and in RS, because they don't understand how to make the system work in their favour. There's people who work for money, and there's people who make money work for them. Most people work for money, work a lot for a little amount of money, then they get frustrated because they can't afford what they want. Then they blame whoever is making money work for them. "Omg I hate investors, they don't waste hours upon hours like me in working for little pay!".



Thing is, the investors aren't to blame, investors understand how the economy work and they make it work in their favour. The investors aren't making you be poor and unhappy, YOU are making YOURSELF poor and unhappy by not knowing how to make the economy work in your favour. The investors can't make you be good at money for you, only YOU can make yourself be good at it. Blaming them for all your problems is nonsense. In a world with no stupid people, everyone would prosper equally because they'd be no one to fall into the traps of the "dark" investors. Investors aren't responsible squat for you picking flax during a month, then your favourite item [bleep]es in price and you can't buy it, and you end up buying something else you didn't really want. They aren't the ones making you do something stupid like fishing lobs or picking flax, you are doing that to yourself. So stop being the victim, stop whining about investors ruining your day and start making money work for you.



You can't make the economy change: Runescape is just like any other capitalist economy. People who don't understand how the economy works have it coming at them, that's basically unavoidable when you're stupid. At the end of the day the stupid masses lose, and the investors win, it's one of those situations in which you either eat, or are eaten. Like I said, in a world with no stupid people, everyone would prosper equally because they'd be no one to fall into the traps of the "dark" investors. Investors are not responsible for the people choosing to remain stupid.



Many many people act like MARTYRS:



They understand whats going on, they have the intelligence to be good at managing money but refuse to exploit the system in their favour because of some misplaced sense of melodrama I don't know what.

"Omg it's not fair people who work harder should get most money, and people who log in just 5 mins at the GE should get nothing!!! IT'S MORALLY WRONG! ").

It's not morally wrong : thats how the system works. It's either capitalism or communism, so stop whining. And for god sakes, leave the morally wrong for poor little african kids being murdered inrl, just the fact RS is a GAME makes any morally wrong argument mean squat. Nobodys being forced to do anything.

#15
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Price manipulation is part of the economy just like everything else. Often people are frustrated with money, both inrl and in RS, because they don't understand how to make the system work in their favour. There's people who work for money, and there's people who make money work for them. Most people work for money, work a lot for a little amount of money, then they get frustrated because they can't afford what they want. Then they blame whoever is making money work for them. "Omg I hate investors, they don't waste hours upon hours like me in working for little pay!".



Thing is, the investors aren't to blame, investors understand how the economy work and they make it work in their favour. The investors aren't making you be poor and unhappy, YOU are making YOURSELF poor and unhappy by not knowing how to make the economy work in your favour. The investors can't make you be good at money for you, only YOU can make yourself be good at it. Blaming them for all your problems is nonsense. In a world with no stupid people, everyone would prosper equally because they'd be no one to fall into the traps of the "dark" investors. Investors aren't responsible squat for you picking flax during a month, then your favourite item [bleep]es in price and you can't buy it, and you end up buying something else you didn't really want. They aren't the ones making you do something stupid like fishing lobs or picking flax, you are doing that to yourself. So stop being the victim, stop whining about investors ruining your day and start making money work for you.



You can't make the economy change: Runescape is just like any other capitalist economy. People who don't understand how the economy works have it coming at them, that's basically unavoidable when you're stupid. At the end of the day the stupid masses lose, and the investors win, it's one of those situations in which you either eat, or are eaten. Like I said, in a world with no stupid people, everyone would prosper equally because they'd be no one to fall into the traps of the "dark" investors. Investors are not responsible for the people choosing to remain stupid.



Many many people act like MARTYRS:



They understand whats going on, they have the intelligence to be good at managing money but refuse to exploit the system in their favour because of some misplaced sense of melodrama I don't know what.

"Omg it's not fair people who work harder should get most money, and people who log in just 5 mins at the GE should get nothing!!! IT'S MORALLY WRONG! ").

It's not morally wrong : thats how the system works. It's either capitalism or communism, so stop whining. And for god sakes, leave the morally wrong for poor little african kids being murdered inrl, just the fact RS is a GAME makes any morally wrong argument mean squat. Nobodys being forced to do anything.






I guess if you can compare to real world capitalism, so can other people. I think we'll all agree that the US is a capitalist country?



http://en.wikipedia....et_manipulation



Market manipulation is prohibited under Section 9(a)(2)[2] of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, and in Australia under Section s 1041A of the Corporations Act 2001. The Act defines market manipulation as transactions which create an artificial price or maintain an artificial price for a tradable security.




Pools

"Agreements, often written, among a group of traders to delegate authority to a single manager to trade in a specific stock for a specific period of time and then to share in the resulting profits or losses."[3]




Runs

"When a group of traders create activity or rumors in order to drive the price of a security up." An example is the Guinness share-trading fraud of the 1980s. In the US, this activity is usually referred to as painting the tape[4].




Bear raid

"Attempting to push the price of a stock down by heavy selling or short selling."[6]




Sound familiar?





EDIT: SEC- securites exchange commission - http://www.sec.gov/about/laws.shtml


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#16
funnisam
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Price manipulation is part of the economy just like everything else.



Thing is, the investors aren't to blame, investors understand how the economy work and they make it work in their favour. The investors aren't making you be poor and unhappy, YOU are making YOURSELF poor and unhappy by not knowing how to make the economy work in your favour.



You can't make the economy change: Runescape is just like any other capitalist economy. People who don't understand how the economy works have it coming at them, that's basically unavoidable when you're stupid.



Many many people act like MARTYRS:



They understand whats going on, they have the intelligence to be good at managing money but refuse to exploit the system in their favour because of some misplaced sense of melodrama I don't know what.

"Omg it's not fair people who work harder should get most money, and people who log in just 5 mins at the GE should get nothing!!! IT'S MORALLY WRONG! ").

It's not morally wrong : thats how the system works. It's either capitalism or communism, so stop whining. And for god sakes, leave the morally wrong for poor little african kids being murdered inrl, just the fact RS is a GAME makes any morally wrong argument mean squat. Nobodys being forced to do anything.




funny thing is, you yourself now nothing about price manipulation. It takes far more than 5 minutes to manipulate prices, and to sell stock after you have bought it. Also i have spoken to some of the generals from a c i d y's cc, and they agree that price manipulation is F****** up the economy. It is unfortunate that price manipulation is part of the economy and is actually illegal in most countries as it is not just to do such a thing.



A lot of people know how to manipulate a market and dont, because they want other people to enjoy the game, so your argument about it just being a game, also works against you, as this is rs money, worth effectively nothing, that these wanna be merchants feel that they have to have some fake money, that wont get them anywhere in life. In a job interview, will this help you: 'I know all about how markets work, i price manipulated on an online game called runescape, and made loads of gp, i currently have 200m in my bank and full 3rd age melee', say that and you will get laughed out of the interview, and most likely never be able to show your face in public again.



merchanting, is far different to price manipulation. merchants actually had skill in markets, and didnt need 100 other people to help them make money, i refer to such accounts as chessy018 and a c i d y, who merchant(ed) without other people's help. and price manipulation is making the economy change, because things dont simply become unavailable to buy because loads of people decide to buy them. Irl the stock is rarely 'bought out' completely, most usually people have stock indicators to show how soon stock runs out.


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#17
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In a way, you could say that the difference in merchanting and price manipulation is the same as the difference between using a feature and exploiting it.



So far, the consequences of all the price manipulation that has been going on are that they have created havoc and panic from time to time. Just look at the potion prices after the pk update plans were announced. Ranging potions, as naming an example I know, skyrocketed in price from around they're stable 1.4k to 4k over the course of a week or two. A lot of people were panicing in fear that potions would cost too much and be impossible to get which in turn raised the prices even more.



If the stock market was as shaky as Runescape's pricing fluctuations, it would crash... fast.
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#18
funnisam
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but do you remember what happened to the ags at one point? it fell 10m in 3 days, if that is not a crash, i dont know what is.
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#19
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I think that most people haven't got a clue about how easy or hard it is to price manipulate. Selling the items is a real pain. What's more is that there are two ways of price manipulation. One is lieing/implying to buy something, the other one, through the GE is actually buying them, which, due to the system of the GE raises the price. The first one is illegal, as it falls under rule 2, lieing for your own personal gain. The second one is a flaw in the GE system, which is used in a way which is similar to merchanting. (Of course, before the GE there were these kinds of posts on merchanting too.)



And while we're on the subject of real life economy. (Note: I'm having trouble translating some of the terms, as I'm Dutch) There are four production factors: Labour, capital, nature, and leading a company. In RuneScape, 2 out of 4 are already removed, nature, as you can't own anything. (Though some seem to think they own a spawn of ) And leading a company, as you can't have a company. :lol: Labour is the main way of getting your money: Cutting trees, monsterhunting, etc. Now capital in real life consist of bank loans, while in runescape, it is present in two forms: Item loaning, if you've got enough money to buy a godsword, you can ask a rent. And being able to do something more efficient simply because you have enough money. This includes monsterhunting for a small part as well, as with more efficient gear, you'll get more kills. But also price manipulation is under this. But, the only reason why price manipulation is possible is that if you have accumulated enough capital, the fact that you invest in a certain item itself raises the price. How do you think people who can do this got their money? They worked for it.
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#20
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one of the faults in your statement, is that it isnt actually hard to get money anymore. that is why jagex create 'money drain' skills such as construction and summoning, so that people have less money.



any noob can go to god wars dungeon in a group and make money, not hard, and very little effort recquired. Then there was 'onyx merchanting' the ability to use unfair trading made this even easier, as you would pay about 1.5m for the runes, then get crafting assist (or if you have 90 crafting make your own) to make a fury amulet, which would sell for 4.9m. this was still able to be done, albeit with less profit than before, a few weeks ago.



selling bought items is also the hardest part, as the ge limit restricts the amount you can sell.
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