Slayer Sucks

[compfreak847]

 

But is Magic experience still not far more expensive than melee experience, which costs next to nothing and is AFK'able? Bursting lobsters is very fast, but it is also very expensive, though I do agree that the charms are worth it. The fact is that melee experience is still very fast, easy, and profitable.

 

I'm sorry, but your not getting it. Melee is 50k XP per hour. Charms make up for the cost of bursting, and magic is 180k XP per hour. There's really no comparison whatsoever, it's not as if they're 'similar'; mage is 3x as easy to train as melee, and the XP is consequently 3x less valuable.

 

 

 

 

As a side note, Slayer is not normally trained with magic, so an extra 15k experience per hour is quite nice. It really adds up in the long run when going for 99 Slayer.

 

Magic XP is worth much less then melee, as melee is the hardest skill to train. Most, if not all slayer tasks require a healer, BOB, or other summon as much or more then wolpertinger; and with slayer, 92 summoning will only come at the last few slayer levels. You can't just magically throw in 15k XP\h from summoning.

[Obtaurian]

 

But is Magic experience still not far more expensive than melee experience, which costs next to nothing and is AFK'able? Bursting lobsters is very fast, but it is also very expensive, though I do agree that the charms are worth it. The fact is that melee experience is still very fast, easy, and profitable.

 

I'm sorry, but your not getting it. Melee is 50k XP per hour. Charms make up for the cost of bursting, and magic is 180k XP per hour. There's really no comparison whatsoever, it's not as if they're 'similar'; mage is 3x as easy to train as melee, and the XP is consequently 3x less valuable.

 

 

 

 

As a side note, Slayer is not normally trained with magic, so an extra 15k experience per hour is quite nice. It really adds up in the long run when going for 99 Slayer.

 

Magic XP is worth much less then melee, as melee is the hardest skill to train. Most, if not all slayer tasks require a healer, BOB, or other summon as much or more then wolpertinger; and with slayer, 92 summoning will only come at the last few slayer levels. You can't just magically throw in 15k XP\h from summoning.

 

 

 

Melee experience is fast and AFK'able, bursting lobsters is not AFK'able, is potentially dangerous (only with the nine lobster spot, really), and costs a lot of money. The charms do cover a lot of that cost, but in the end you still spend a LOT of money to raise those two skills whereas melee is profitable, relaxing, and you still get decent charms and cash, which you have proven.

 

 

 

You're right, so lets throw in a magical 10k exp/h from a Fire Titan at level 79. Still very much worth it.

 

 

 

I'm still not quite sure how AFK'able, fast, profitable melee experience is harder than expensive, attention intensive magic experience.

[compfreak847]

Expensive? Nope, we already agreed that charms negotiated the cost. So, it boils down to this:

 

50k XP Semi-Afkable (still have to pick up drops etc.)

 

180k XP Non-Afkable

 

 

 

What I find ironic is that you used to argue that slayer's not being AFKable wasn't an issue - after all, weren't we playing the game, not letting it run in the background? Lobsters require far less attention then efficient slaying.

 

 

 

Oh, and you still haven't quite grasped the whole 'can't use fighting familiars 100% of the time' issue. Plus a wolpertinger is around 10k XP\h boost, and a fire titan less then 4k on a fast-kill slayer task. Then again, you've never even tried either summon, so somehow I'm not surprised :roll:

[Obtaurian]

Expensive? Nope, we already agreed that charms negotiated the cost. So, it boils down to this:

 

50k XP Semi-Afkable (still have to pick up drops etc.)

 

180k XP Non-Afkable

 

 

 

What I find ironic is that you used to argue that slayer's not being AFKable wasn't an issue - after all, weren't we playing the game, not letting it run in the background? Lobsters require far less attention then efficient slaying.

 

 

 

Oh, and you still haven't quite grasped the whole 'can't use fighting familiars 100% of the time' issue. Plus a wolpertinger is around 10k XP\h boost, and a fire titan less then 4k on a fast-kill slayer task. Then again, you've never even tried either summon, so somehow I'm not surprised :roll:

 

 

 

Charms help to buffer the cost, but it is still costly.

 

 

 

We're no longer talking about Slayer, we're talking about the cost of magic experience versus melee experience. The Slayer portion of the discussion was in regards to how many skills you can train at once with Slayer. Eight.

 

 

 

A combat familiar is used the majority of the time while slaying if you care at all about speed. A healing familiar should NEVER be used unless it's the only familiar that can be used (abyssal demons). A BOB should only be used if a combat familiar cannot be used (Dark beasts, wyverns).

 

 

 

Where did you get your numbers for the experience rates? I believe it was Kent who came up with the rates I used.

[compfreak847]

Charms don't "help buffer the cost", they "make bursting the most efficient method in Runescape for obtaining charms". See some other threads for the lengthy calculations me and Kent used to finish this. Your trying to say that AFKability makes melee's 1/3rd XP compared to magic "basically the same". By that logic, slayer sucks supremely when compared to AFK zombies.

 

 

 

A combat familiar is a very bad idea at almost all tasks. Here's the only ones it can be reasonably used on:

 

 

 

Bloodveld (Only if your killing mutated bloodvelds, where it will be vastly outshone by your cannon)

 

Dagannoth (These tasks are pathetically short with a cannon. Your summon won't do much of anything)

 

Fire giant (Harder and slower without a healer, not recommended. Ditto for dusties)

 

Kalphite (Short task with a cannon, more difficult without a healer. Low HP and fast kills, combat familiar probably won't make a noticeable difference in XP besides converting much more valuable melee XP to mage. Not recommended.)

 

 

 

Yeah, that's it. I'm coming up with a total of 2 tasks where a combat familiar will really make a difference, and both of them are short cannon tasks. Not quite this magical number you can tack onto the end of your XP rates?

 

 

 

My numbers come from, as usual, extensive testing. And I'm surprised that Kent's numbers are that out of line, he tends to use my or others numbers instead of testing for the XP rates. At any rate, they certainly aren't specifically for slayer monsters.

[Obtaurian]

Charms don't "help buffer the cost", they "make bursting the most efficient method in Runescape for obtaining charms". See some other threads for the lengthy calculations me and Kent used to finish this. Your trying to say that AFKability makes melee's 1/3rd XP compared to magic "basically the same". By that logic, slayer sucks supremely when compared to AFK zombies.

 

 

 

A combat familiar is a very bad idea at almost all tasks. Here's the only ones it can be reasonably used on:

 

 

 

Bloodveld (Only if your killing mutated bloodvelds, where it will be vastly outshone by your cannon)

 

Dagannoth (These tasks are pathetically short with a cannon. Your summon won't do much of anything)

 

Fire giant (Harder and slower without a healer, not recommended. Ditto for dusties)

 

Kalphite (Short task with a cannon, more difficult without a healer. Low HP and fast kills, combat familiar probably won't make a noticeable difference in XP besides converting much more valuable melee XP to mage. Not recommended.)

 

 

 

Yeah, that's it. I'm coming up with a total of 2 tasks where a combat familiar will really make a difference, and both of them are short cannon tasks. Not quite this magical number you can tack onto the end of your XP rates?

 

 

 

My numbers come from, as usual, extensive testing. And I'm surprised that Kent's numbers are that out of line, he tends to use my or others numbers instead of testing for the XP rates. At any rate, they certainly aren't specifically for slayer monsters.

 

 

 

I completely disagree with your views on using combat familiars. Tasks that require extensive healing are rare. Not to mention that healing familiars are rendered completely obsolete with the use of an Enhanced Excalibur. A few pineapple pizzas and HP restore prayer are all you need for most tasks, and that's without the Excalibur. With a combat familiar, you're usually able to kill two monsters in the time it takes your familiar to kill one, and that's with relatively low level familiars!

 

 

 

I'm actually quite surprised that you fail to recognize how utterly useful combat familiars are, even at low levels. Next time you train slayer, calculate the time saved by using a combat familiar. Press the call button the moment a monster hits you, and immediately switch to a different monster. At your summoning level, you should see a massive difference. At mine, I see a very good one.

 

 

 

It has also been shown that CT Dags should be used if you care more about charms than Slayer experience, but that's just personal preference.

 

 

 

I'll have to find those tests on bursting that you mentioned.

[compfreak847]

I'm still waiting for the tasks you believe that combat familiars are so useful at...

[Troacctid]

I'm still waiting for the tasks you believe that combat familiars are so useful at...

 

Oh, well that much is easy. Anything in a multicombat zone. Off the top of my head, black demons, dust devils, aberrant spectres, gargoyles, and fire giants are some examples where I would absolutely use a combat familiar.

 

 

 

In my experience, combat familiars are more valuable than super sets for combat training.

 

 

 

I might go so far as to hypothesize that task or no task, dust devils, with a good enough familiar, may be on par with armoured zombies for melee training, because of their much better charm rate. (Pretty sure we can all mostly agree on how much more valuable summoning xp is compared to melee xp.) Not that I've done any testing...I'm just looking at their high HP, low defense, multicombat location, great droplist, great crimson rate, and how close together the spawns are, and thinking, "Damn, do I wish they were undead."

 

 

 

In fact, I'm confident that even if armoured zombies didn't beat slayer training, dust devils would. (And ironically, they'd also add an incentive to train slayer.)

[compfreak847]

Black demons? Eww, I'll take my unicorn and no prayer any day. Dust devils mentioned earlier, a pain in the behind to do without a healer. Spectres are MUCH better served with a macaw. I can't even imagine garogyles without a unicorn, and using a large combat summon there is a nightmare. Fire giants are another mentioned task, possible but much more of a pain without a healer thanks to their low HP. Dust devils are nowhere near the XP, that 20% boost from salve amy, 200k profit from zombies, and at best mediocre charms gives dust devils a big thumbs down.

[Obtaurian]

Black demons? Eww, I'll take my unicorn and no prayer any day. Dust devils mentioned earlier, a pain in the behind to do without a healer. Spectres are MUCH better served with a macaw. I can't even imagine garogyles without a unicorn, and using a large combat summon there is a nightmare. Fire giants are another mentioned task, possible but much more of a pain without a healer thanks to their low HP. Dust devils are nowhere near the XP, that 20% boost from salve amy, 200k profit from zombies, and at best mediocre charms gives dust devils a big thumbs down.

 

 

 

Black Demons - I'll take my combat familiar and piety for much faster kills.

 

 

 

Dust Devils - Pain in the butt without a healer? How so? It's my opinion that much faster kills with a combat familiar is much less of a pain in the butt.

 

 

 

Spectres - If you're looking for cash, bring a macaw. If you're looking for experience, bring a combat familiar.

 

 

 

Gargoyles - Easy without a healer, especially with an Enhanced Excalibur. I don't see where you're having problems here.

 

 

 

Fire Giants - You can take two giants and have your familiar kill one for you at all times. It's faster.

 

 

 

Your problem is that you choose to slay using slow, inefficient methods, and you try to argue that those are the correct methods.

[Troacctid]

Black demons? Eww, I'll take my unicorn and no prayer any day. Dust devils mentioned earlier, a pain in the behind to do without a healer. Spectres are MUCH better served with a macaw. I can't even imagine garogyles without a unicorn, and using a large combat summon there is a nightmare. Fire giants are another mentioned task, possible but much more of a pain without a healer thanks to their low HP. Dust devils are nowhere near the XP, that 20% boost from salve amy, 200k profit from zombies, and at best mediocre charms gives dust devils a big thumbs down.

 

What can I say? Combat familiars are just that underrated. I can't speak for gargoyles since I don't have the level for them, but I've done fine on fire giants and dust devils without a healer and added probably...eh, maybe 10% faster xp, but I wouldn't quote me on that. The last time I actually measure my bonus xp from a familiar was with a spirit cobra, and it was adding nearly 7k attack xp per pouch.

 

 

 

Just something to chew on. It obviously can't match piety + salve of the zombies, and you don't need to train slayer to use a combat familiar, so it's debatable whether it's important to this comparison. But you shouldn't underestimate an extra set of teeth and claws.

[compfreak847]

Black demons - Never said anything about not using piety, and in the enclosed space your never gonna manuvre a familiar for much of a bonus

 

 

 

Dust devils: "much faster"? You obviously haven't tried any of the summons your talking about. It IS pain in the butt to call your summon several times in every kill

 

 

 

Spectres: Both count in efficiency calculations. 10+ rannars outdo the (MAX) 4-5k XP boost of a combat familiar on these fast, low HP spread out cannoned monsters

 

 

 

Gargoyles: As if a Excalibur could keep up. Even with MY stats that's a joke, unicorn's 21hp\minutes falls behind at times.

 

 

 

Fire giants: Lol, ever tried what your preaching? With the running around and ultra-fast piety kills, you don't have a spare fire giant to hang around and have killed.

[Obtaurian]

Black demons - Never said anything about not using piety, and in the enclosed space your never gonna manuvre a familiar for much of a bonus

 

 

 

Dust devils: "much faster"? You obviously haven't tried any of the summons your talking about. It IS pain in the butt to call your summon several times in every kill

 

 

 

Spectres: Both count in efficiency calculations. 10+ rannars outdo the (MAX) 4-5k XP boost of a combat familiar on these fast, low HP spread out cannoned monsters

 

 

 

Gargoyles: As if a Excalibur could keep up. Even with MY stats that's a joke, unicorn's 21hp\minutes falls behind at times.

 

 

 

Fire giants: Lol, ever tried what your preaching? With the running around and ultra-fast piety kills, you don't have a spare fire giant to hang around and have killed.

 

 

 

Considering that my Slayer level is higher than yours and you've shown me that you're really not very good at Slayer, I can't say I'm shocked with your response.

 

 

 

I suggest you try them out. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

[compfreak847]

Really? I wasn't aware that my slayer level impacted my ability to kill any of the tasks you mentioned. I assume, of course, that you have dozens of hours with the wolpertingers and geyser titans of which you speak, and compared then accurately to your unicorn? 'Cause if not, you really shouldn't be talking about any of them.

[Obtaurian]

Really? I wasn't aware that my slayer level impacted my ability to kill any of the tasks you mentioned. I assume, of course, that you have dozens of hours with the wolpertingers and geyser titans of which you speak, and compared then accurately to your unicorn? 'Cause if not, you really shouldn't be talking about any of them.

 

 

 

Well, I figured that if my experience with Summoning should based on my Summoning level, that your experience with Slayer should be based on your Slayer level.

 

 

 

I jest.

 

 

 

But really, summoning is a great skill, and I suggest you try it out sometime. At your level you'd notice a huge difference in speed during tasks.

[compfreak847]

I have, I've spent dozens of hours with wolpertinger\geyser titan. They are unquestionably inferior to unicorn stallion.

 

 

 

I'm still curious, how much have you tried out any of the above 3 monsters that you mentioned? "Experience" seems to be your main argument now that you've given up on a logical approach, and you seem all too happy to skip around the question of YOUR experience.

[Troacctid]

Really? I wasn't aware that my slayer level impacted my ability to kill any of the tasks you mentioned. I assume, of course, that you have dozens of hours with the wolpertingers and geyser titans of which you speak, and compared then accurately to your unicorn? 'Cause if not, you really shouldn't be talking about any of them.

 

I have two pouches' worth of testing that I wrote down somewhere. It's not much, but it's something, right? *rifles through old data*

 

Karamthulhu Overlord at Dust Devils: 5492 ranged xp

 

Spirit Cobra at Dusties: 6548 attack xp

 

I'm assuming geyser titans and wolpertingers will give more than that, but I can't use them yet, so you'd have to help me out on those. (For reference, if you want xp/hr, the karamthulhu lasts 44 minutes and the spirit cobra lasts 56.)

[compfreak847]

 

I have two pouches' worth of testing that I wrote down somewhere. It's not much, but it's something, right? *rifles through old data

 

Referring to Morningrise, who seems to be quite into the whole "experience" thing.

 

 

 

 

I'm assuming geyser titans and wolpertingers will give more than that, but I can't use them yet, so you'd have to help me out on those. (For reference, if you want xp/hr, the karamthulhu lasts 44 minutes and the spirit cobra lasts 56.)

 

Dust devils are a good spot for a familiar with slower killing speeds, but your lower stats and lack of piety give your summon a leg up. Monsters like Gargoyloes with higher defence and Dagganoths with a cannon see far less XP.

[Obtaurian]

I have, I've spent dozens of hours with wolpertinger\geyser titan. They are unquestionably inferior to unicorn stallion.

 

 

 

I'm still curious, how much have you tried out any of the above 3 monsters that you mentioned? "Experience" seems to be your main argument now that you've given up on a logical approach, and you seem all too happy to skip around the question of YOUR experience.

 

 

 

Sure. As I'm sure you know by now, I'm a lover of Slayer. I also happen to love training it as quickly and efficiently as possible. When Summoning came out, I was excited to get my hands on a Bunyip, and since getting it, I've realized that it's unnecessary. Using pineapple pizzas, rapid heal, and piety, I was already able to burn through tasks without having to bank for food. Throw in a combat familiar and enhanced excalibur, and I never hurt for food while completing tasks at a much faster rate. This does not apply to Terrorbirds, as I usually need a few pineapple pizzas here and there.

 

 

 

When using a combat familiar, always click call as soon as you're attacked, then immediately switch to another monster. The familiar will rarely dance, as it has an easier time attacking the monster that is usually dancing with YOU, trying to hit you. Familiars with ranged and magic attacks have a much easier time, obviously. Small spaces aren't usually a problem, especially with the aforementioned ranged and magic familiars.

 

 

 

This method works for all combat familiars regardless of Summoning level, so I can only assume that a Steel Titan would be much better than the forge regent that I currently use.

 

 

 

I really can't understand how you seem to have such a hard time on tasks. The only truly difficult tasks are Scabarites, which will kill you quickly if your concentration lapses.

 

 

 

I also fail to see how using a healing familiar instead of a combat familiar is faster, especially at your level. Excalibur doesn't take an attack turn, and with it you don't need food (except on tasks that I've mentioned before). I agree with Tro's estimate of about 10% increase in speed.

[compfreak847]

Excalibur won't cover for virtually all of the tasks. Many tasks like black demons are in a very cramped space, and calling a familiar will NOT smoothly engage in combat. Additionally, the fast kills on the tasks you mentioned mean your combat summon isn't going to be able to do much for your tasks.

 

 

 

Oh, and I'm curious where this "10%" number you pulled out of your behind came from. Neither of you have anywhere close to the summon level for the monsters your talking about :|

[Obtaurian]

Excalibur won't cover for virtually all of the tasks. Many tasks like black demons are in a very cramped space, and calling a familiar will NOT smoothly engage in combat. Additionally, the fast kills on the tasks you mentioned mean your combat summon isn't going to be able to do much for your tasks.

 

 

 

Oh, and I'm curious where this "10%" number you pulled out of your behind came from. Neither of you have anywhere close to the summon level for the monsters your talking about :|

 

 

 

Like I said, have the familiar attack a monster that you are NOT attacking. Having your familiar attack the same monster as you is a big no-no, and it'll only ever get one hit in before you get the kill. Also, like I said, the familiar will rarely dance if the monster it's trying to attack is moving, which it will be if you do what I said above.

 

 

 

I did pull it out of my [wagon], but it's a good, rough estimate. Abyssal Demons tasks take me the duration of two bunyips (one of two tasks that I use a bunyip on). I can get through most other tasks with a single pouch.

 

 

 

EDIT: You're right about Excalibur, which is why you sometimes need to supplement it with a little food. Sometimes. Most tasks it fairs just fine.

 

 

 

And, I'm leaving now. I'll be back later.

[compfreak847]

Impossible at many monsters like Demons and Gargoyles. Your arguing a 'rough estimate' (AKA wild guess) verses collected data. Supplementing food is a bad idea when space is at a premium, and I burn through far more then 'a little supplemented food' the tasks mentioned.

[pureprayer]

How many different tasks does dudreal/lapalok assign?

 

 

 

Aberrant spectres

 

Abyssal demon

 

Black demon

 

Black dragon

 

Bloodveld

 

Dagannoth

 

Dust devil

 

Fire giant

 

Gargoyle

 

Gorak

 

Greater demon

 

Hellhound

 

Iron dragon

 

Kalphite

 

Nechryael

 

Scabarites

 

Skeletal Wyvern

 

Spiritual Mage

 

Steel dragon

 

Suqah

 

Warped terrorbird

 

Waterfiend

 

 

 

Say 15k xp/h is true and you can use them on 3 tasks. What about on the 17 other ones? Its all about averages.

[compfreak847]

But it aint true...

[Nomrombom]

Since I'm not going to read 47 pages of this thread, I'm not exactly sure what you guys are talking about, however, I will offer my opinion on your post and this page.

 

 

 

287 (Am I the only person to have read and put that part in my post?)

 

 

 

Anyway, I agree, slayer is horrible. So much time is wasted on bad or hard tasks, or tasks that you simply cannot do, such as if I got mith drags. Doing medium PC with a good clan can easily net 150kxp an hour (including points spent) Plus, if you don't have s really high magic level and haven't done that many quests, you have to WALK to many areas. I have to walk for at least 5 minutes just to get to the chinchompas in the very southern feldip hills. The same is true for many slayer tasks. And half the monsters provide little loot and not much money. Once you get slayer up to 80 and beyond, then you can start pulling in a bit of money with whips and boots and such. But straight up combat is so much better and faster. Yes, slayer is fairly fun, but only once you are at the monsters and killing them.