Could a Facist Democracy work?

[1_man_army]

Cuba could have worked if it wasn't for the crippling sanctions that had been put on it.

[Ginger_Warrior]

On paper, Communism sounds great and better than Capitalism, unfortunately in the real world it's never worked out that way.

 

I've never understood why people say this lol.

 

I know, the Soviet Union worked great. Oh...

 

The Soviet Union collapsed because it was the only Communist economy in a world otherwise dominated by Capitalism. Marx is quite clear - Communism has to spread in order to survive, and Stalin didn't spread the revolution.

 

 

 

Also, you should really go back and study the shape Russia was in during 1917 under the Tsars and the Provisional Government. That same country only 25 years later won the biggest land battle in history.

 

 

 

Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the US. It's by no means a total failure, because Fidel altered the definition of Communism to fit around the trade embargo placed on it by the US during the Cold War.

 

 

 

Arrogantly calling Communism a failure might score brownie points with a Capitalist, but it won't get you anywhere in a debate.

[Lenticular_J]

Of course Marxism would work if it was spread across the globe - and if people could actually make it work. It would be utopian, but human fallacies as well as bad timing made it a theoretical awesome, but a practical failure.

 

 

 

Yeah, Russia's been in some pretty crazy [cabbage]. It industrialized itself in under 50 years, right? But at a massive cost of life.

 

 

 

Cuba is probably the best-working true Marxist nation thus far. Its size and leaders' intellect (as well as terrible leaders before, and the rebels being most certainly people-people) help it a lot, though. Still, bad timing (as you said, one of few Marxist nations in a capitalistic world), among other reasons, have made Communism in practice a failure. Also, Cuban life expectancy is a ridiculous thing to bring up in this scenario - something you certainly know. The likelihood of living for another couple of years hasn't exactly stopped people from fleeing the nation however they could.

 

 

 

It isn't necessarily arrogance when it's true. We both disagree with each other, which make our claims seem arrogant to the other, but alas, I'm sure it seems fine in our eyes.

 

 

 

We could debate the theoretical greatness of certain economics forever. It only matters in practice. I, for one, think it would be fantastic if all currency were little golden statues of me. But that wouldn't work particularly well.

[Lenin64]

There is quite a difference between Stalinism and traditional communism.

 

That's what I put in the first post.

 

And is it me or is Lenin overhyped? Otherwise not many people know much about Red Terror :|

 

 

 

I know you put it in the OP but the post above mine (which I was referring to) didn't seem to make a distinction.

 

 

 

In response to your point about Lenin, yes he is somewhat over-hyped, for some people he is close to being god like (ih the irony). Regardless of your political allegiances though, it was a remarkable to bring down such an old-time entrenched system like the Tsarist regime of the Romanov's. He did make a few failures, he was forced into the Brest-Litovsk Pact in order to end Russian involvement in WW1, he didn't deal with food shortages too well (he wasn't helped by having to fight the White Armies) and he was completely blindsided by Stalin's political maneuvering.

 

 

 

The fact that he remains as the symbol of communism however, is more to do with the cult of personality that Stalin helped to create and exploit during his reign as he knew many of the people adored Lenin.

 

He also didn't wait for nearly long enough to start to try and fund what he termed the "World Revolution", thereby severely draining funds.

[Lenticular_J]

Plus it's a cool name.

 

 

 

Just saying, your political ideologies are more likely to be accepted if your name isn't Bob Smithton.

[l0l0lpur32]

On paper, Communism sounds great and better than Capitalism, unfortunately in the real world it's never worked out that way.

 

I've never understood why people say this lol.

 

I know, the Soviet Union worked great. Oh...

 

 

 

East Germany, for sure. No...

 

 

 

China? Uh-uh.

 

 

 

North Korea? We don't know...

 

 

 

Cuba? I'll go look for one of the folks on floating goats.

 

That (the fact nearly... no every communist state has/had to put it very lightly, political repression) wasn't even my point, I've just never understood why people always say it - more specifically, how many actually mean it and can back it up, and aren't just saying it because they heard someone else say it.

[Lenticular_J]

Yeah, I guess there's certainly reason to think that. What with the horrible Commies coming to take away our candy.

[oegly41]

I think this is a little relevant:

 

 

 

tDg211Z9yPU

[warren211]

I think we've established that a Facist democracy is impossible. But I think the OP is not really referring to democracy (people governing) so much as just giving them rights similar to that of the Constitution. In that case, it would only work if the Facist leader happened to not get too power-hungry. But that kind of person is quite hard to come by. To be put in command of a powerful nation where rebellion is easy for you to destroy, who wouldn't take advantage once in a while? You'd have to take a pretty big gamble to put someone in so much power and hope that they won't abuse it.

[Nero]

A better fit would be a benevolent dictator. Someone who's fair but unflinching in punishment of law-breaking citizens. The population could also enjoy freedom of speech and freedom of press (in this imaginary country). Unfortunately, we're all human though, and that much power would eventually corrupt anyone.

[Shinjula]

I love the way people say "Comunism doesn't work" - Dudes, nothing works, take a look around at the credit crunch to see the fabulous way in which Capitalism fails.

 

 

 

The point is we are intelligent beings and need to create a system on the fly containing elements of every type of system we can think of and be willing to change freely between modes of operation as the situation demands it.

 

 

 

For example regards the energy crisis, global warming and third world poverty we could really use some socialistic and communistic tools, regards.

[indy500fan]

I love the way people say "Comunism doesn't work" - Dudes, nothing works, take a look around at the credit crunch to see the fabulous way in which Capitalism fails.

 

 

 

The point is we are intelligent beings and need to create a system on the fly containing elements of every type of system we can think of and be willing to change freely between modes of operation as the situation demands it.

 

 

 

For example regards the energy crisis, global warming and third world poverty we could really use some socialistic and communistic tools, regards.

 

 

 

We've never had a truly capitalist country just like there has never been a truly communist country. Blaming the credit crunch on capitalism is just idiocy. One of the main reasons it happened was the government making it easier for the poorer people to get credit that they really shouldn't have received, and that is not capitalism.

[l0l0lpur32]

Of course all economic systems have problems, but a 100% command economy is not the solution.

[Lenticular_J]

Can't really have an extreme on either side...

[BlueLancer]

Fascism demands a police state, which runs counter to a democracy.

 

 

 

On the other hand, communism can exist with democracy, as communism is an economic model rather than a governmental model.

 

 

 

In theory it's also a governmental model just as in China (where the communist party runs everything), but I also agree it doesn't have to somehow contradict democracy.

 

 

 

Don't forget that even in China (or an absolute totalitarian state such as North Korea), the politicians are still, more or less, democratically elected. They don't just spawn into political positions (on the exception of Kim Jong-Il whose legitimacy as a leader of North Korea comes from his father)

 

 

 

It also slightly annoys me when people say "it works good on paper, not in reality" without giving actual reasons. That being said, communist economies can't function in the current world, thus even China has been forced to 'convert' to the capitalistic form of economy.

 

 

 

Communism as an economic model can work if competition, supply & demand all around the world is equal. If there is no incentive to import/export more than necessary, planning-based economy like in the ex. Soviet Union would work just fine (people are out of shoes - stores need 4 million pairs of shoes - order factories to manufacture them).

 

 

 

Profiteering and the desire of industrialists, and eventually of private citizens, to become wealthy easily overrides human welfare though. Why should store X in China be content with buying state-manufactured shoes at $25 a pair, when an independent industrialist from Taiwan will provide them at $22.5 a pair?

[Yomyth105]

the two r complete opposites.

 

 

 

communism sounds great and all but it is a utopia. and utopia's fail because humans are not perfect.

[dragoonson]

the two r complete opposites.

 

 

 

communism sounds great and all but it is a utopia. and utopia's fail because humans are not perfect.

 

 

 

EXACTLY.If no one was an asshat it would work perfectly.Sadly,I play video games and I happen to know asshats exist.

[Randox]

Facism and Democracy are two mutualy exclusive concepts. Democracy, is rule by the people (by majority representation usualy, though in smaller systems more complete representation is possible). A Facist system (ie communist), is a system where you have one ruler with absolute power. You can't have one ruler with absolute power in a system where majority is the rule. What happens when the majoruty disagrees with the dictator? Probably civil war. As I said, the concepts are mutualy exclusive, you can't have both.

[Shinjula]

I love the way people say "Comunism doesn't work" - Dudes, nothing works, take a look around at the credit crunch to see the fabulous way in which Capitalism fails.

 

 

 

The point is we are intelligent beings and need to create a system on the fly containing elements of every type of system we can think of and be willing to change freely between modes of operation as the situation demands it.

 

 

 

For example regards the energy crisis, global warming and third world poverty we could really use some socialistic and communistic tools, regards.

 

 

 

We've never had a truly capitalist country just like there has never been a truly communist country. Blaming the credit crunch on capitalism is just idiocy. One of the main reasons it happened was the government making it easier for the poorer people to get credit that they really shouldn't have received, and that is not capitalism.

 

 

 

Way to miss the point - If we've never had a truly communist country yet people feel free to say "Comunism doesn't work", its entirely reasonable to say "Capitalism doesnt work" despite the lack of a truly capitalist country.

 

 

 

And as for blaming the credit crunch on capitalism, i think its actually reasonable, given it wouldn't have occured in other systems. I'm not at all convinced you are correct in your assessment of the reason behind the crunch, certainly it was bad credit decisions as you describe, but I'm not quite sure where you think the governments influence came in, I can't find anything online which might support that reasoning, but feel free to come back with more information for me.

 

From what I can see the largest factor behind it was the inevitable bursting of the housing bubble, which is purely a capitalist problem, boom bust is one of the hallmarks of a capitalist society.

 

 

 

However, this is pretty unrelated to what i was saying (although feel free to discuss it more), my point was that so many people always say that Communisms doesnt work, despite the fact that no system has the flexibility to deal with an organically evoled species of creatures with a society of the level of complexity of humans, and in that sense Capitalism doesnt work.

 

 

 

Capitalism has major flaws in it right from the ground up, probably the largest of which being that a Capitalist system has by default a section of society which must be poor. No other system insists on such a section. Now thats a heck of a flaw.

[Mollerz]

the two r complete opposites.

 

 

 

communism sounds great and all but it is a utopia. and utopia's fail because humans are not perfect.

 

 

 

EXACTLY.If no one was an asshat it would work perfectly.Sadly,I play video games and I happen to know asshats exist.

 

 

 

Especially since we play MMORPGs :S And asshat is a cool work :twss:

[megakiller32]

the two r complete opposites.

 

 

 

communism sounds great and all but it is a utopia. and utopia's fail because humans are not perfect.

 

 

 

EXACTLY.If no one was an asshat it would work perfectly.Sadly,I play video games and I happen to know asshats exist.

 

 

 

Especially since we play MMORPGs :S And asshat is a cool work :twss:

 

 

 

IT'S SPELLED WORD YOU ASSHAT!

 

 

 

Don't take that comment seriously :P

[Lenticular_J]

Capitalism has major flaws in it right from the ground up, probably the largest of which being that a Capitalist system has by default a section of society which must be poor. No other system insists on such a section. Now thats a heck of a flaw.

 

Well, if one person is poor in Communism, everyone is. Which means a communist nation has to have some serious wealth and power, or a tiny population (preferably both).

 

 

 

Barbarism counts as an economic system, right? Well, there one section is poor.

 

 

 

Mercantilism ... Iffy, but yes.

 

 

 

Now, if you have a utopia of any system, nobody would be poor, everyone would be happy, and everyone would be equals.

 

 

 

Life don't work like that.

[Shinjula]

Capitalism has major flaws in it right from the ground up, probably the largest of which being that a Capitalist system has by default a section of society which must be poor. No other system insists on such a section. Now thats a heck of a flaw.

 

Well, if one person is poor in Communism, everyone is. Which means a communist nation has to have some serious wealth and power, or a tiny population (preferably both).

 

 

 

The difference is, Communism doesnt *HAVE* to have poor, Capitalism does.

 

 

 

Barbarism counts as an economic system, right? Well, there one section is poor.

 

 

 

In what sense is Barbarism an economic system? There are primitive societies most of them operate with communistic economies within their tribe and either socialist or capitalist (trading freely) outside the tribe, whats a barbaric economic system?

 

 

 

Now, if you have a utopia of any system, nobody would be poor, everyone would be happy, and everyone would be equals.

 

Life don't work like that.

 

A Utopian Capitalist society would/should still have the poor, or if you are defining your utopia to insist that there are no poor, it is impossible to have a Capitalist Utopia (not sure what defines a Utopian Capitalist society), but generally Capitalism is a competing market system, in a competition there are always losers, its kinda a given.

 

The only way not to have the poor in capitalism is to not have the competition, lose the competition and you stop having capitalism.

[l0l0lpur32]

What incentive is there for people to work if everyone receives an equal amount of income? (I'm pretty sure everyone having an equal income was never part of communism/socialism anyway).

[Shinjula]

Equal income isnt a part of socialism at all, Socialism is completely different to communism, in communism, its rarely looked at as equal income, thats essentially what happens, with some provisos, its "Each according to his needs, each according to his abilities". You work for the benefit of the society as a whole,you'd get your housing and food and anything else you need for basic living and then any profit the society makes can then be split amongst every in terms of luxuries.

 

 

 

As for incentives, they aren't as direct as in a capitalist model, greed isnt encouraged, instead a feeling of well being from a job well done, and the knowledge that you are working together and helping your fellow man.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, humans on this planet are terribly greedy and whilst (in my opinion) this is a thing very bad thing and needs to be strongly discouraged (in contrary to the values of most capitalist countries - one of which I happen to be living in) so it currently wont work in the country I'm living in, I believe that evenutally we will evolve in that direction and that the communist society will be what we end up with.

 

 

 

Its probably too much of a stretch for most people to believe that they could find the above incentives enough to want to work, but in my expierence I have met many many people who take such pride in their work, who dedicate themselves to others that it would take only a small change for them to be happy in a communist society. And I'm not talking about highly paid people here but your average joe on the street doing jobs like emptying bin and surfacing roads.