Will Russia ever be accepted a'la Germany

[nickeley102]

Yes, yes, my apologies, in light of recent events I have decided to make another political/foreign policy/history based thread

 

 

 

WWII was pretty horrendous, the most destructive event the world has seen, this was lead largely by German Fascism and its leader Hitler. But nowadays Germany, Japan and Bulgaria are still acceptable holiday destinations

 

 

 

My discussion point is this: can Russia, following the Cold War (which ended in the late 80's/early 90's) ever recover in the minds of the western world the way Germany did

 

 

 

At the moment I dont think this has been achieved, and the iron curtain (and paranoia surrounding communism) still exists to an extent

 

 

 

Is it that the threat of mutually assured destruction still exists? Was it the ideological nature of the Cold War? Is it too soon to have an opinion on this? Will it just take longer because the Cold War lasted longer?

 

 

 

Admittedly I am from New Zealand and am largely removed from these events apart from what is written, so point out mistakes

 

 

 

or we could just keep talking about eating glass

[megakiller32]

Russia is a strange culture, not quite western but not quite eastern.

 

 

 

And because of the sheer size of the Russian Federation, it just gives people the impression as if they're up to something with all that land... Putin isn't exactly friendly to the larger countries, and Russia in general are extremely secretive compared to the UK for example.

 

Also, communism seems like a bigger threat than facism because communism is still used in many countries. Finally, Russia sold Nuclear Arms to Iran.

[Da_Latios]

There's not many known attractions in Russia, so it won't be a popular destination for a few decades when they start building some big [bleep]ing thing.

[Dizzle229]

There's not many known attractions in Russia, so it won't be a popular destination for a few decades when they start building some big [bleep] thing.

 

 

 

But don't Americans go to Chernobyl with cameras all the time?

[Randox]

I think Russia and the rest of the world will eventualy get over it. I don't think my generation 1990 will be the ones to do it though. I don't think until the generation of 2000 hits young adults will you see the western powers start to trust Russia again. Russia is a big mystery. They fought against Germany in WWII, but they didn't exactly fight with the allied powers either. Now that is not entirely their fault, it is partialy their location. The fact that Russia was able to Repel Germany while France was completly occupied is unerving, even though I don't think anyone regards France as a super power in the legue of the USA or Russia. As far as I know, Germany is also no longer a dictatorship. Russia is. Before Russia can ever recover and be trusted by the wetern powers, they need to become democratic.

 

 

 

Democracies have good reason for trusting other democracies when you consider that no democratic nation has ever attacked another democratic nation (maybe if you go back to the time of the greeks, but that is largely irrelevent to the disscussion).

[Deiophobus]

There's not many known attractions in Russia, so it won't be a popular destination for a few decades when they start building some big [bleep] thing.

 

 

 

But don't Americans go to Chernobyl with cameras all the time?

 

 

 

No I don't think so, and that's in Ukraine. And Randox, Russia isn't a dictatorship..

[Dizzle229]

I thought Ukraine was a part of Russia, not it's own country?

[Deiophobus]

I thought Ukraine was a part of Russia, not it's own country?

 

 

 

It's been independent since 1991.

[Dizzle229]

So it was Russian land at the time of the accident, but now it's Ukraine's headache?

 

 

 

Also, how did Ukraine become independent from Russia without a HUGE conflict?

[Deiophobus]

So it was Russian land at the time of the accident, but now it's Ukraine's headache?

 

 

 

Also, how did Ukraine become independent from Russia without a HUGE conflict?

 

 

 

I think you need to learn about the U.S.S.R., and its fall. :P

[Dizzle229]

So it was Russian land at the time of the accident, but now it's Ukraine's headache?

 

 

 

Also, how did Ukraine become independent from Russia without a HUGE conflict?

 

 

 

I think you need to learn about the U.S.S.R., and its fall. :P

 

 

 

 

 

I know that the Soviet Union basically destroyed itself from the inside out after the Cold War, but I didn't know they lost any land. Much less a MASSIVE piece of land.

[Lenin64]

So it was Russian land at the time of the accident, but now it's Ukraine's headache?

 

 

 

Also, how did Ukraine become independent from Russia without a HUGE conflict?

 

Fat Jesus, woman. Have you no sense of history? Ukraine, along with Kazhakstan and a bunch of other countries, including most of Eastern Europe, were all part of the USSR (though I don't believe eastern bloc countries were technically part of the Union), and once it broke apart, everything went back to pre-Soviet. Ukraine became independent, Kazhakstan, all those.

 

 

 

As for the Generation of 2000 thing; I don't know about that. Maybe because of where I was at the time-ROTC-but any mention of Communism, period, at all, came up with stuff like, "damn Commies", and some more colorful stuff. So maybe their children will be more fine with it, since the parents of this generation actually grew up with the Cold War, but I don't know. Hopefully.

[Lenticular_J]

I'm pretty sure just about the entire Eastern Bloc was considered USSR.

 

 

 

And actually, Russia is visited. A lot. The Cold War paranoia was actually over when the whole thing ended, believe it or not. Apart from nutcases or stereotypes, people just consider Russia another country here in the US.

[1_man_army]

The problem with Russia now is the people's perception of democracy and who that gives the power to.

 

 

 

After USSR fell and split, Russia went through social and economic turmoil, it lost much of it's territory, the economy was destroyed, there was lawlessness and the state industries were being sold off for nothing compared to their real value (look at Sibneft). That left Russia in a horrible state, they had gone from the world's 2nd largest power to a running joke during the Yeltsin years and this hurt Russian pride. Those years created a link for them between democracy and the mess their nation became. That's why they responded so well to Putin, he was perceived to be a strongman who reminded them of past glories who could recapture Russian pride on the world stage, his KGB past helped create that image. That need to build up Russian pride has been a big part of why Russia has acted in the ways it has on the world stage, it's their way of saying "we're back and we'll do what we want."

 

 

 

Until the Russian people embrace the concept of democracy and don't associate it with the weak rule and madness of the Yeltsin years they won't come into the international fold, too many still want to see Russia having the massive sphere of influence that it once had. That can't/won't happen until the Putin clique and his puppet are removed in my opinion.

 

 

 

That being said Germany isn't a good comparison, there are very different issues at hand in relation to Germany.

[RichieMcD]

The simple fact is Russia just isn't that nice to visit, the landscape isn't amazing in most regions, the people are cold and not the most welcoming and the climate is terrible for tourism.

 

 

 

Germany has a huge amount to offer, welcoming country, famous beers, amazing scenery along the Rhine valley, huge amount of WW2 sites and climate isn't to bad.

 

Japan is incredibly welcoming, amazing scenery in certain regions, a great culture and heritage to it and many sites to visit.

 

Bulgaria is quite like a poorer version of Germany with a better climate and more Mediterranean climate / landscape less the WW2 sites.

 

 

 

When you think of culture or "wow I'd like to visit there" does Russia really ever pop in to mind? It's very unique country, but not really in a great way.

[Denismage]

What's with all the Putin-ing? Putin is not the president, Medvedev is.

 

 

 

A lot of Americans (for the sake of simplicity, I don't know where they were from when they talked to me with a strong American type accent) visit Moscow, even in winter. Saying the landscape isn't amazing is plain ignorant, there are absolutely wild places in Russia, with wild animals and a lot of mosquitoes.

[RichieMcD]

What's with all the Putin-ing? Putin is not the president, Medvedev is.

 

 

 

A lot of Americans (for the sake of simplicity, I don't know where they were from when they talked to me with a strong American type accent) visit Moscow, even in winter. Saying the landscape isn't amazing is plain ignorant, there are absolutely wild places in Russia, with wild animals and a lot of mosquitoes.

 

 

 

Yes there are some amazing places but there is in every country, I've heard the eastern remote area is amazing but hard to get to, making it less suspectable to tourism. Every country has it's amazing landscape area, Ireland = Connemara, Britain = The White Cliffs of Dover, France = The Alps, Germany = The Rhine valley, Japan = Mt. Fuji.

 

 

 

Sorry Denis but other than seeing Siberia, there is nothing I can think of that hugely appeals to me about Russia.

[Lenticular_J]

That's like saying "Other than seeing all of Northern and Western Canada, that nation does not appeal to me."

[1_man_army]

What's with all the Putin-ing? Putin is not the president, Medvedev is.

 

 

 

 

Medvedev is a puppet for Putin (try saying that drunk). The only reason Putin still isn't officially still President is because of the two term rule, so how else would he keep real power?

[RichieMcD]

That's like saying "Other than seeing all of Northern and Western Canada, that nation does not appeal to me."

 

 

 

Yes it exactly is. What is the point in visiting a country if it doesn't appeal to you? I'd like to see Siberia, but I wouldn't go to Russia really for anything else.

 

 

 

Would you come to Ireland just to see the Connemara region without anything else appealing to you? I doubt it, you'd most likely come due to many different aspects such as the warm welcome, amazing scenery on the west coast, heritage and culture etc.

[Deiophobus]

I would love to visit Russia. My favorite landscape is pine forests, and I love the cold.

[Skull]

I've always wanted to go to Russia. And Ireland. Not just for the drinking either.

[nickeley102]

I would love to visit Russia. My favorite landscape is pine forests, and I love the cold.

 

the landscape is cool, and so are the huge strange palaces

 

 

 

i think maps can be deceiving about the size of russia though

 

I'm pretty sure just about the entire Eastern Bloc was considered USSR.

 

 

 

And actually, Russia is visited. A lot. The Cold War paranoia was actually over when the whole thing ended, believe it or not. Apart from nutcases or stereotypes, people just consider Russia another country here in the US.

 

werent they just part of the soviet union? the amount of name changes surrounding the area make it confusing

 

 

 

Are you from the north east? i may be completely off track here, and generalising, but Borat the movie, seemed to me to attract attention to a side of america that many people in the blue states werent aware of. a significantly large portionm at that

 

 

 

there are still people talking about another civil war resulting from a black president, these same people may also hold anti-semitic views and have an underlying hate for commies. while others are not aware of these views existing, let alone being large enough to be a problem

 

 

 

be aware that people who are part of the internet forum culture are much more likely to be formally educated, have access to a computer and be liberal and left-wing

 

 

 

there are a lot of old, southern people who do not agree (sorry, another huge generalisation)

[OldJoe]

I don't think many see Russia as a country to go on holiday, most people just prefer a country such as Italy or France.

 

A city i would like to visit, because it has some very interesting sites, is Moscow. And of course, with such a vast country... There are many amazing sites in nature. The Kola Peninsula as an example, great for fishing (altho it's been damaged by pollution). You also have the Ural Mountains... Siberia... And many other sites.

[Lenticular_J]

there are a lot of old, southern people who do not agree (sorry, another huge generalisation)

 

Nope, I hail from Texas. Yeap.

 

 

 

And there really isn't that much craziness surrounding all that.