alternatives to justice

[nickeley102]

I dont really want to look up the figures on the percentage of reoffending criminals. But, its pretty clear that the justice system doesnt work, most criminals who are released from prison are back within a year.

 

 

 

So I was wondering, why is this? And what are some alternatives that may be more successful?

 

 

 

In educational assessment theory there is a concept called validity of assessment. Basically it says that each task has a goal and a task is only valid if achieves what it is supposed to. A written driving test is not very productive for instance (if the test is set up to check if people can drive safely) because someone could pass the test and not necessarily have the skills to drive safely. Back to the point, how 'valid' is the justice system when its goals are clearly not being achieved?

 

 

 

Its important to remember that it is called the justice system, not the revenge system, meaning; its goals are harmonious, the idea is to rehabilitate, not to punish. So saying someone deserves something does not fit with the justice systems theoretical underpinnings.

 

 

 

I really like rehabilitative and social justice systems; where you have to help rebuild what you have undone. I think this helps the offender realise why what they did was damaging and unproductive and why its important they dont do it again. Of course this isnt the always going to be the case and some people will redo something and undo repeatedly, I just think something should change

 

 

 

I also think the system should be set up where judges and people in other positions are given more power to make judgement calls regarding how long someone is jailed for and other particulars about how 'justice' is achieved.

[user1991]

Our governments should focus more on rehabilitation than punishment.

 

 

 

If our goal is to have a society where we don't need prisons/laws because nobody kills etc, then rehabilitation is the best way forward.

 

 

 

Punishment is pointless really, it does nothing. If we want a better society then we can't just throw people in a hole to rot, we have to actively try to MAKE it a better society..

[Randox]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

[user1991]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

 

 

 

What good does punishment do?

 

 

 

Instead of torturing prisoners, why don't we try to make them better people?

[ember3579]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

 

 

 

 

 

2 months with only food and water (obtained by a dispenser, not unlike a hamster cage) and no outside contact at all should suffice in that department. However, that's not guaranteed to work. I am a staunch defender of the opinion that in some extreme cases (such as the baby-killer topic already in discussion in off-topic) You shouldn't muck about and just remove them from any chance of escape. Really, in cases such as that, can any human come up with a punishment which fits that particular crime?

[ember3579]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

 

 

 

What good does punishment do?

 

 

 

Instead of torturing prisoners, why don't we try to make them better people?

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry about the double-post, but I just have to respond to this.

 

 

 

While that's a nice sentiment, that doesn't always work. Not all people would be able to do that. Really, there's 4 kinds of people in prison right now. Those who didn't know they messed up, those who did and are repentant, those who don't care about it, and those who take pride from it. The first 2 are viable for your method, as they should be. However, to say that all are viable is naive, and very dangerous. If you try to rehabilitate the last 2 people I said, it will both not work and put people in danger, chiefly because they wouldn't see anything wrong with faking rehabilitation to get out and do what they done again. See the problem?

[J a m e s]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

 

 

 

Solitary confinement is just barbaric. It won't teach them anything at all.

 

 

 

Also, I had no idea the U.S. tortures POW's like that. I find that mildly amusing.

 

 

 

On another note, I think our current justice system works pretty well. Even though I'm about as socially liberal as you can get, I believe rehabilitation is a load of crap. Harsh punishment keeps people from doing things.

 

 

 

P.S. Victim's rights!

[ember3579]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

 

 

 

Solitary confinement is just barbaric. It won't teach them anything at all.

 

 

 

Also, I had no idea the U.S. tortures POW's like that. I find that mildly amusing.

 

 

 

 

 

It will teach them that certain activities are absolutely NOT tolerated. That should be enough. Well, except in the case of people who take pride from their chosen atrocity. Those require a somewhat more permanent reaction.

 

 

 

And yes, some segments of the U.S. military do this to POWs. This is a very sad development, but such is the way of a Republican presidency. -.-

[J a m e s]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

 

 

 

Solitary confinement is just barbaric. It won't teach them anything at all.

 

 

 

Also, I had no idea the U.S. tortures POW's like that. I find that mildly amusing.

 

 

 

 

 

It will teach them that certain activities are absolutely NOT tolerated. That should be enough. Well, except in the case of people who take pride from their chosen atrocity. Those require a somewhat more permanent reaction.

 

 

 

And yes, some segments of the U.S. military do this to POWs. This is a very sad development, but such is the way of a Republican presidency. -.-

 

 

 

What if it drove people so insane that they felt they needed to get revenge for their punishment?

[Laura]

I think the never ending appeal system is the greatest downfall, yet at the same time, what makes it so great. And I think community service should be offered more strongly than what is today.

[user1991]

I say two months solid of solitary confinement for second and first degree murder and pedophielia. This may or may not be cheeper than a 25 year prison term because it will drive them completly insane. So that we all understand, solatary confinement removes your ability to gauge the passing of time. minutes become hours, hours become days, days become weeks, weeks become months and months become many years. I belive this is classified as cruel and unusual punishment if used for more than a couple days, and for good reason. It is quite frankly torture, and I belive that atleast first degree murder and probably pedophilia deserve this form of punishment. For pedophilia, I understand it is probably like being homosexual where you dont really choose (you don't wake up one day and realise you want to [bleep] 12 year old girls). In this case its wrong and just like the rest of the world you should suppress any feelings of this manner you may have.

 

 

 

There is also varriants on solitary. One invoves the normal scoope but with an audio twist. A really loud and annoying sound (like country western). A really loud song makes it near immpossible to think. Reportedly teh only counter for a song you truly hate is to have extremly loud and animated conversations with yourself. Should you lose concentration on the conversation, you will be lost to a hopeless depression of self pittly. If you like the song it is not effective at all. They do this to muslim POW's right now, and to be ethical the prison gaurds all get to listen too. How does this work? The prion warden really likes mettalican and nevana, and the muslims cant stand it (its like country western and/or rap to various other people).

 

 

 

Solitary confinement is just barbaric. It won't teach them anything at all.

 

 

 

Also, I had no idea the U.S. tortures POW's like that. I find that mildly amusing.

 

 

 

On another note, I think our current justice system works pretty well. Even though I'm about as socially liberal as you can get, I believe rehabilitation is a load of crap. Harsh punishment keeps people from doing things.

 

 

 

P.S. Victim's rights!

 

 

 

In the long term rehabilitation is better than punishment.

 

 

 

Sure, harsher punishments stops people from doing things but people still do them and it will continue this way ad infinitum.

 

 

 

As said previously, if our goal is a society where we do not need laws because people DON'T murder etc (probably not going to happen, maybe with transhumanism, but its a good goal nonetheless), then punishment for the sake of punishment does nothing.

[Dizzle229]

What? We don't torture POW's. That goes directly against the constitution. There were some CIA agents who tortured captured terrorists, but they weren't supposed to be doing that and they have been dealt with. Even still:

 

 

 

1. Terrorists deserve to be tortured, though that doesn't mean we should, so we don't.

 

2. Technically they're not POW's because we're not fighting a government, and technically we're not even really at war, since Congress never declared war, George Bush just thinks he's a king.

 

3. Terrorists are devoted to their cause, they aren't likely to give information.

 

 

 

Here's a more personal view though. The idea behind not torturing and executing prisoners is that if we don't hurt their's, they won't hurt ours. But terrorists don't care, they kill our prisoners all the time. Why should they be treated any better?

 

 

 

 

 

OT: For more domestic situations, yes, here should be more of a focus on rehabilitation. However, murder should be a life sentence.

[BlueLancer]

What? We don't torture POW's. That goes directly against the constitution. There were some CIA agents who tortured captured terrorists, but they weren't supposed to be doing that and they have been dealt with. Even still:

 

 

 

1. Terrorists deserve to be tortured, though that doesn't mean we should, so we don't.

 

2. Technically they're not POW's because we're not fighting a government, and technically we're not even really at war, since Congress never declared war, George Bush just thinks he's a king.

 

3. Terrorists are devoted to their cause, they aren't likely to give information.

 

 

 

 

For a second it sounded like trolling but maybe you really haven't heard about Abu Ghraib or U.S. detention centers around the world... Have a read. The torture of POW hasn't been just approved by CIA agents, it has support all the way from Bush's administration.

 

 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitic ... d=4635175&

 

 

 

 

These top advisers signed off on how the CIA would interrogate top al Qaeda suspects -- whether they would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding

 

 

 

The advisers were members of the National Security Council's Principals Committee, a select group of senior officials who met frequently to advise President Bush on issues of national security policy.

 

 

 

As far as I remember, sleep deprivation and simulated drowning is considered inhumane, unusual & cruel punishment, or torture by the Third Geneva Convention and UN convention against torture which the US has signed:

 

 

 

Articles 13-16: Prisoners of war must be treated humanely without without any adverse discrimination and their medical needs must be met.

 

 

 

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him... information or a confession, punishing him for an act he... has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him.

[Dizzle229]

The Bush administration is a lesser power than the Constitutuion, they had no right.

[Utopianflame]

BlueLancer the traditional way around the Geneva conventions is to declare the people you plan on torturing "Unlawful enemy combatants" so they dont count as POW's. Still violates the UN charter against torture of course but since when has the Bush adminstration cared for the UN.

[Skull]

Put a bullet in their brain. Cheap and effective. Only costs as much as a bullet and there's no chance of them doing it again.

[Nero]

Put a bullet in their brain. Cheap and effective. Only costs as much as a bullet and there's no chance of them doing it again.

 

Holy [cabbage]! The Nazis did build a time machine! Btw man, I hate to say it, but you guys lose the war.

[Dizzle229]

What war? Congress never declared war, because there was no government to declare war on, and even if there was, Congress did not approve. Osama needs to be captured and killed, but he's not in Iraq.

[Iamdan]

I thing one of the biggest problems is that after a conviction, you can't get a half decent job. imo many people would want to start a new life but can't.

[Lenticular_J]

Let it be more accessible to juries.

[angryjoe]

We need Dexter Morgan. 8-)

[Kenshinjapan]

Do we need a new topic every time an episode of Taboo comes out?