Consideration about ripping.

[Nadril]

Now this isn't really on topic of use in grunge or abstract sigs, but I have had sigs before that were jsut simple photographs. Obviously, people think that these may be ripped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, I am a member at a free stock image site ( http://www.sxc.hu/ ) that has catagories ranging from 'abstract' photos, to 'landscape' photographs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Among the text on the main page, I found this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Browse through the categories of our huge gallery containing over 100.000 quality stock photos by more than 9.000 users! Need a wallpaper for your desktop? Need a pic for your commercial website design? Looking for inspiration? Have a look around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share your photos with fellow designers! SXC is a friendly community of photography addicts who generously offer their works to the public free of charge. If you have some nice photos that you'd like to share with others, join us!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now certain sites openly allow the use of images, but using images found on Google.com is ripping in my eyes. Unless direct permission is granted, I say they shouldn't be used.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That site is very good. I've been trying to advertise it, just because those images you can use (sometimes even without mentioning the person in the image comment! different people differ on their rules on that site though) But its actualy legal :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, I too have had sigs that seemed like a simple, ripped photo from a site. But realy, it was a stock photo, or as in many cases, many stock photos, that I have edited to my will. Signing up for the site is very easy as well, and its well worth it! Mostly because the photos there are so much higher quality than googled images.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, Tttia, I just read your post on RSC, and i'd use that forums along with this, but i'd probaly just end up going back here :P. I'm still not a huge fan of the atmosphere around there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thing is, with these forums, i think we are kind of in a transition sort of age. Like, a year+ or so ago we had a lot of good things going around, at least we thought we did (as the major figures in the board get better, everyone elses work seems worse from their standpoint) But now, we have had a lot of the major figures in the boards leave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This leaves room for "new" people, a lot which we have already seen poping up and such, mostly with the new pixel artists and we have people getting better. I'm not going to name any names, but people who a year back or so, realy people way back on the old scapeboard have improved so much over here, but still not up to the quality as the "old" major figures. I hope you get what i'm trying to say here. I realy think that if we help out the new batches of artists around here that we could become a better comunity. And realy, one thing we are missing are the good 'ole wallie contests and such.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, if there is anything that can bring a comunity up in quality is a high paying, ubar, contest. Not a sig contest mind you, but something that realy chalanges such people, such as a wallpaper contest, to do their absolute best and then some. Infact, I'd love to host a said contest, but i'm broke :lol: . Either way, a big non-sig contest could realy help everyone around here, plus a lot of realy good works come out of it. even a "Major" sig contest would work *remembers twiceborn's competion, best one their ever was...* Something like that, with a lot of places and a lot of cash, would make the comunity get better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, i've realy broken away from the ripping topic, but if we can bring up the comunity to where ripping isn't necisary, than it wont happen as often :wink:

[tttia]

I think what we really need are contests that get away from rewards in rs money. That is part of the problem. For instance, at rsc they have a competition of the month. It is run by the mods, has a nice theme, has set rules, a set deadline, and they keep an archive of winners. It is fun, and there is absolutely no cash rewards.

[Ryan]

I think what we really need are contests that get away from rewards in rs money. That is part of the problem. For instance, at rsc they have a competition of the month. It is run by the mods, has a nice theme, has set rules, a set deadline, and they keep an archive of winners. It is fun, and there is absolutely no cash rewards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but none of the mods seem to want to do this. I know I have and so have many others suggested that we have competitions and such, but they used to just get buried by all the market posts. I still think it would be rather difficult unless you could have a mod control it so we could make it a stick and it could always be on the front page to see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of the custom title contests seem to be RS related, maybe we could let them give a custom title to the winner of the contest?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I swear there was a huge discussion about stuff we could do for the media board with mods involved and I'm greatful of the splitting of the board, but that's all that happend.

[Godslayer]

Shall we stage a revolt and draw meaningfull artwork in their directions? :lol:

[jabraulter]

I think what we really need are contests that get away from rewards in rs money. That is part of the problem. For instance, at rsc they have a competition of the month. It is run by the mods, has a nice theme, has set rules, a set deadline, and they keep an archive of winners. It is fun, and there is absolutely no cash rewards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ever heard of http://www.Worth1000.com ? It is a website that holds photoshop contests from photo-manipulation to corporate logo design. I think if we were to hold a contest, we should hold it 'through Worth1000.' Let me explain:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Corporate contests on the site include a real life cash prize ranging from $150-300 dollars. The objective is usually to create an ORIGINAL company logo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not only would we be competing against Worth1000 competitors, but also those who enter from Tip It. The person on Tip It who ranks the highest when the winner(s) are announced on the site (worth1000) wins. It may sound weird...let me try again

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's say I host the competition. I go to http://www.Worth1000.com and find a corporate company logo design contest. I post the guidelines here on Tip It and whoever wants to enter enters (keep in mind when i say enter, i mean you have to sign up on the site and enter it into the site competition). Whoever from Tip It gets the best score from the Worth1000 and company judges wins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The website has specific plagarism rules so anyone who rips will be DQed. I think it would be very fun just to see what some people come up with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We could also do this with the photo-manip contests, but the only prize is credits on the Worth1000 site.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- - - - -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Understand? :roll: :? :D

[Ryan]

Shall we stage a revolt and draw meaningfull artwork in their directions? :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First we need to flood the media market and yell at the people who put "renders" in their sigs.

[Greatsilverwyrm]

There are a couple problems with cracking down on this..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. The sheer number of posts-

 

 

 

It's very difficult to go through every post, and look at things and decide which ones violate any rules we have etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. The ambiguity of things.. It's hard, if you start cracking down on things, to not crack down on other things. If we start cracking down on game renders, we'd have to crack down on anime stuff, brushes, etc, then the workload just shoots up..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, if somone links us to a post where somone is ripping, and you can give us proof, we can definitely go about giving that person the treatment they deserve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I know this should go up in post somewhere, but, I'll put it here..

 

 

 

Within the copywright laws, there's a section on fair and appropriate use or whatever. Generally when people use game renders/anime whatever, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't created.. and there's where the ambiguity comes in..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will, however, speak to the admins again about running contests. Seeing how well it's working on other forums may be an incentive. :)

[Ryan]

There are a couple problems with cracking down on this..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. The sheer number of posts-

 

 

 

It's very difficult to go through every post, and look at things and decide which ones violate any rules we have etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. The ambiguity of things.. It's hard, if you start cracking down on things, to not crack down on other things. If we start cracking down on game renders, we'd have to crack down on anime stuff, brushes, etc, then the workload just shoots up..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, if somone links us to a post where somone is ripping, and you can give us proof, we can definitely go about giving that person the treatment they deserve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I know this should go up in post somewhere, but, I'll put it here..

 

 

 

Within the copywright laws, there's a section on fair and appropriate use or whatever. Generally when people use game renders/anime whatever, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't created.. and there's where the ambiguity comes in..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will, however, speak to the admins again about running contests. Seeing how well it's working on other forums may be an incentive. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks GSW. I see your point, I just wish we could do something. And I hope all goes well with the admins :).

[theforbiddenlight]

The issue is not only making money off of it, but doing something that is ILLEGAL in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

your mistaken my friend, its only illegal if they take credit for making the render and or for making real life money off it..

[The_Jeppoz]

Well, how about you give a reference (not sure it's the right word) to the image you used so every1 can see if it's free to use ? More or less how it works on Deviant Art when some1 uses stock photos, if you get what i mean.

[theforbiddenlight]

the images i use arn't free to use, i pay to use them on gamewallpapers and if i link you it will ask you to log in my name and im not giving out my use ad pass there

[Greatsilverwyrm]

the images i use arn't free to use, i pay to use them on gamewallpapers and if i link you it will ask you to log in my name and im not giving out my use ad pass there

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because you pay them doesn't mean they have legal right to give you legal right to something they don't have legal right to..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I beleive gamewallpapers.com is a site where you can download wallpapers to use on your desktop? I don't think it's intended as a stocks site. . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, you are the one that's mistaken. Unless you specifically give credit to whoever did whatever, and sometimes not even then, you don't have legal right to do anything with the image other than look at it and modify it for your own use. Sometimes not even the latter.

[Mercifull]

Generally most signatures that are made ARE for personal use.

 

 

 

I think this is a stupid rule that you are thinking about implementing.

 

 

 

If a signature is using a wallpaper or a premade pic and simply adding text then thats cheating but not ripping so much. This happens on every forum in the wod so why do ppl here get in a hissy fit about it. Fair enouh if sombody nicks a signature someone else made or uses a render and passes it off as their own then that should be punished. But people use stock images all the time, its hard to police whats a copywrited image and whats not. You cant just ban all signatures except pixel thats just lame.

 

 

 

If the law really gave a toss about ppl using pictures in sigs then places like b3ta.com which is all photomanipulation would be sued for thousands.

[Ryan]

Generally most signatures that are made ARE for personal use.

 

 

 

I think this is a stupid rule that you are thinking about implementing.

 

 

 

If a signature is using a wallpaper or a premade pic and simply adding text then thats cheating but not ripping so much. This happens on every forum in the wod so why do ppl here get in a hissy fit about it. Fair enouh if sombody nicks a signature someone else made or uses a render and passes it off as their own then that should be punished. But people use stock images all the time, its hard to police whats a copywrited image and whats not. You cant just ban all signatures except pixel thats just lame.

 

 

 

If the law really gave a toss about ppl using pictures in sigs then places like b3ta.com which is all photomanipulation would be sued for thousands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Merc, it seems that you still don't understand. "All the other forums in the world" don't have a way for you to profit off of the sigs. Besides, how is it any different from me going onto DeviantArt stealing someone's 3d model they spent hours making and just sticking it in my sig. Everyone would scream rip and I'd probably apologize and then get banned. The work belongs to someone else and I see it fine if they use it personally or give the sigs away for free. It might just be "RS money", but you coudl turn around and sell this money for RL money. Make about 20 mil off sigs and then make like 200 bucks on ebay.

[Mercifull]

Mmm i guess so. But this was always going to happen with the greed of all sig makers driving prices up. Means that people are looking for a quick buck and will shove a google image in a sig and add some text just to get a bit of money.

 

 

 

Perhaps more prizeless competitions are needed to boost effort by people. and also sig makers need to stop asking for so much money so that the noobs rippers dont see it as a quick way of getting rich.

[axeraider70]

yeah, i think prizeless comps such as duels or something would be good. it was really fun when i dueled fire.

[Nadril]

 

the images i use arn't free to use, i pay to use them on gamewallpapers and if i link you it will ask you to log in my name and im not giving out my use ad pass there

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because you pay them doesn't mean they have legal right to give you legal right to something they don't have legal right to..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I beleive gamewallpapers.com is a site where you can download wallpapers to use on your desktop? I don't think it's intended as a stocks site. . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, you are the one that's mistaken. Unless you specifically give credit to whoever did whatever, and sometimes not even then, you don't have legal right to do anything with the image other than look at it and modify it for your own use. Sometimes not even the latter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remember someone quite a few months ago, DRUM, used that "gamewallpapers.com" site. He said he paid for it, blablabla. However, when I chalanged him to a sig battle and he ripped an image that ironicly was the wallpaper i was using well, he was just a plain old ripper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, lets look at the name of the site. http://www.gamewallpapers.com. Notice what I bolded. It isn't intended for using as a stock site.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Merc: I have no problem with real stock photos. Stuff from the stock section of deviantart or stuff from stock.xching I am perfectly fine with. However, it would be nice that if someone did use a stock photo, they could link it under the sig, or perhaps have a link in the sig (so you click to see the origonal stock on the site). It could help, but would be tough to mod/check, especialy for when you use like 5-6 stocks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, "every other forums does it" Well, like ryan said, not every other forum has a way of making money. You can't not-count rs money as Real cash, because of E-Bay. However, I'm going to add that just because other sites do it doesn't mean its right :P.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, I'd love to see these competions. I've been needing something to do, since I don't play runescape anymore I have no need for wining a competion, plus I usualy get beat out by some grunge sig with a "cool" stolen picture :( :) :x .

[Ryan]

Mmm i guess so. But this was always going to happen with the greed of all sig makers driving prices up. Means that people are looking for a quick buck and will shove a google image in a sig and add some text just to get a bit of money.

 

 

 

Perhaps more prizeless competitions are needed to boost effort by people. and also sig makers need to stop asking for so much money so that the noobs rippers dont see it as a quick way of getting rich.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't the RS economy more to blame for this? In one week rares are gaining millions? I think the main problem is the game this site is based on. I don't even go to the media market if I can help it since I don't like RS, it just doesn't help that these sigs are then used throughout the rest of the forum and you find out people paid for them.

[tttia]

You will never convince sig makers who have a market for them that they should reduce prices. And yes, the rares market and the complete failure of any real money sinks has made rs cash-flush. For a while this seemed to bother Jajex...not anymore though apparently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I think we all acknowledge that the real problem is that everyone wants to make sigs to make money. As a result sigs are the only thing that get any run on this board.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But this is the media DISCUSSION board. Not the DO YOU THINK I CAN MAKE MONEY OFF OF THIS LAME PIXEL SIG board. WE need have those posts moved. In fact, it would be nice if the media discussion board discussed MEDIA, not sigs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But again, those who are obsessed with sigs are not going to suddently not be obsessed with them. So the only way to counter this is to GET MORE people obsessed with actual art. Flood the noob s ig makers with real work. But that requires us all to make a commitment to it. And in the past we have not shown that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think all in all we might as well just admit that this is a sig making board. It is the history of it, and will probably be the future of it. The only options I see are:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Moderate the first 5 posts that someone makes in the media section, and if it is terribly lousy send them a pm informing them--technical pain, and a man-power nightmare...but the better boards do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Make a rule that all sig discussion goes in the media market board...since really, that is where all the sigs are sold, etc. Rid the whole discussion board of sigs. Limit it only to discussion of art or media in general. This seems unlikely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. everyone who doesn't play rs anymore makes an effort to do work other than sigs, to post it often.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4. This has been debated for a long time, and the new media markt board more or less shows the stand that Tip has taken, but the other option is to ban making sigs for money entirely. As it is it is arules violation of Jagex' policy. we got permission finally from them to use images in sigs from the game, but we never did get permission to sell out of game items for rs cash

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now having said all this, the truth is that the vast majority of people here like sigs, like making money off of them, and think we are old crotchety whiners. So the only ones that even look halfway plausible are number 2 and number 3. Especially number 2 because we don't need permission to do it. Post lots of good non-sig art. inspire others to do the same.

[Godslayer]

Perhaps a sub cateory or user group for serious artists? Leave everyone else to discuss sigs here?

[Nadril]

Perhaps a sub cateory or user group for serious artists? Leave everyone else to discuss sigs here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know a lot of the artists on here have discussed such a board. The problem was, was basicly the origonal DAG and the group after that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was a great idea and all, but... well, not much went on there. I was in the second group as an aprentice, but realy, you couldn't get many comments there. Also, there was the let down of not getting in or not having some people get in. Also, there was the problem of, who gets in? It would be some tough decisions. If we let everyone in, it would just become "another" Media discussion board. If we had a set requirement, then we would have a lot of un-happy people. Either way , it wouldn't realy work out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, It would be good to have a sig/sig sales board and a actual forums for larger pieces and such. However, first we need to actualy have people doing larger works. To tell the truth, we realy haven't had much at all as far as large works go, like Tttia said, we are all to blame. If we want the boards to be better we all need to work together.

[Altkill]

 

Perhaps a sub cateory or user group for serious artists? Leave everyone else to discuss sigs here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know a lot of the artists on here have discussed such a board. The problem was, was basicly the origonal DAG and the group after that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was a great idea and all, but... well, not much went on there. I was in the second group as an aprentice, but realy, you couldn't get many comments there. Also, there was the let down of not getting in or not having some people get in. Also, there was the problem of, who gets in? It would be some tough decisions. If we let everyone in, it would just become "another" Media discussion board. If we had a set requirement, then we would have a lot of un-happy people. Either way , it wouldn't realy work out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, It would be good to have a sig/sig sales board and a actual forums for larger pieces and such. However, first we need to actualy have people doing larger works. To tell the truth, we realy haven't had much at all as far as large works go, like Tttia said, we are all to blame. If we want the boards to be better we all need to work together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Art is about expressing yourself, taking 2 seconds on a cut and paste job and making a couple of hundred thoushand is only expressing greed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the idea Slayer, I think a group of the more experience artisits (you, Quer, TJ, etc should get together and contact Admin, they may le you set it up, if you have a group of more experienced people only granting acces to those who tak art seriously and don't ju want money wil b granted to have access on the board, these people (experience ones) will have moderator privilages on that board only, and so are still treated as normal postrs, and still comb the normal mdia board looking for those serious artisits, eithe you gran them acces or you a password system (granted access sounds better to me).

[Quer_Skulll]

 

 

Perhaps a sub cateory or user group for serious artists? Leave everyone else to discuss sigs here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know a lot of the artists on here have discussed such a board. The problem was, was basicly the origonal DAG and the group after that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was a great idea and all, but... well, not much went on there. I was in the second group as an aprentice, but realy, you couldn't get many comments there. Also, there was the let down of not getting in or not having some people get in. Also, there was the problem of, who gets in? It would be some tough decisions. If we let everyone in, it would just become "another" Media discussion board. If we had a set requirement, then we would have a lot of un-happy people. Either way , it wouldn't realy work out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, It would be good to have a sig/sig sales board and a actual forums for larger pieces and such. However, first we need to actualy have people doing larger works. To tell the truth, we realy haven't had much at all as far as large works go, like Tttia said, we are all to blame. If we want the boards to be better we all need to work together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Art is about expressing yourself, taking 2 seconds on a cut and paste job and making a couple of hundred thoushand is only expressing greed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the idea Slayer, I think a group of the more experience artisits (you, Quer, TJ, etc should get together and contact Admin, they may le you set it up, if you have a group of more experienced people only granting acces to those who tak art seriously and don't ju want money wil b granted to have access on the board, these people (experience ones) will have moderator privilages on that board only, and so are still treated as normal postrs, and still comb the normal mdia board looking for those serious artisits, eithe you gran them acces or you a password system (granted access sounds better to me).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

we already tried that.. reply was %pixelers already have to much on these boards.. which was true.

 

 

 

but other art-groups would be cool, wont include me but..

[tttia]

I don't think I would endorse another closed-door group. As nadril said we already tried that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I wouldn't mind a sub forum where no sig related topics were allowed. I just don't know that there would be sufficient interest to merit it. You don't really have to screen people for talent. You simply have a place where sigs cannot be discussed. That way clear out 90 percent of the topics such as

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

a. how do you make sigs?

 

 

 

b. what program do you use to make sigs?

 

 

 

c. first pixel sig

 

 

 

d. Frist ever sig

 

 

 

e. Rate my sig

 

 

 

f. Do you think these sigs are worth money?

 

 

 

g. who is the best/worst/biggest trash talking sig maker?

 

 

 

h. pixel sig practice...pixel linework practice...pixel sig tutorial (not that you can't have larger pixel works, you can but most of these topics are not like that).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You get the idea. I think a sub forum, open to all, but with strict rules of NO SIG discussion would be great. But do the folks who run theboards see a need for it? Do the artists here see a need for it? I don't know that.

[Ryan]

You will never convince sig makers who have a market for them that they should reduce prices. And yes, the rares market and the complete failure of any real money sinks has made rs cash-flush. For a while this seemed to bother Jajex...not anymore though apparently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I think we all acknowledge that the real problem is that everyone wants to make sigs to make money. As a result sigs are the only thing that get any run on this board.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But this is the media DISCUSSION board. Not the DO YOU THINK I CAN MAKE MONEY OFF OF THIS LAME PIXEL SIG board. WE need have those posts moved. In fact, it would be nice if the media discussion board discussed MEDIA, not sigs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But again, those who are obsessed with sigs are not going to suddently not be obsessed with them. So the only way to counter this is to GET MORE people obsessed with actual art. Flood the noob s ig makers with real work. But that requires us all to make a commitment to it. And in the past we have not shown that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think all in all we might as well just admit that this is a sig making board. It is the history of it, and will probably be the future of it. The only options I see are:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Moderate the first 5 posts that someone makes in the media section, and if it is terribly lousy send them a pm informing them--technical pain, and a man-power nightmare...but the better boards do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Make a rule that all sig discussion goes in the media market board...since really, that is where all the sigs are sold, etc. Rid the whole discussion board of sigs. Limit it only to discussion of art or media in general. This seems unlikely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. everyone who doesn't play rs anymore makes an effort to do work other than sigs, to post it often.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4. This has been debated for a long time, and the new media markt board more or less shows the stand that Tip has taken, but the other option is to ban making sigs for money entirely. As it is it is arules violation of Jagex' policy. we got permission finally from them to use images in sigs from the game, but we never did get permission to sell out of game items for rs cash

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now having said all this, the truth is that the vast majority of people here like sigs, like making money off of them, and think we are old crotchety whiners. So the only ones that even look halfway plausible are number 2 and number 3. Especially number 2 because we don't need permission to do it. Post lots of good non-sig art. inspire others to do the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's deja vu though. Your rules sound great, but we have enough trouble with people posting in wrong sections as it is I doubt it can be properly implemented.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the trying a new board, we did that once and I just can't find a new home. dA is too big and somethingleet is mainly really experienced artists. I just feel out of place there. We need a small enough board to where we can fit in, but it needs some activity already. So many of us are inactive that starting a new one probably wouldn't work and all of the people we left would just follow.