Teenager commits suicide on webcam

[Zierro]

Really? How did i misinterpret? Or, what if, maybe, just maybe, I interpreted certain people's reactions to suicide and depression as ignorance regarding the matters? Because maybe you (in general, not just you, though you can take it that way if you really want to be defensive), to put it bluntly, don't know what you're talking about. That, and you're convinced that you do.

 

 

 

So you are you saying respect is demanded? Nah, I don't think so. Yeah, tragedies happen and no one really wants them to, but I have better things to do than morn over someone else's problems. That's just me though. There's 6 billion people on this planet. Insensitive or not, that's still a high number.

 

 

 

I already explained how it was more than just a cry for attention. But feel free to ignore me and continue your ignorant, happy life.

 

 

 

You're just looking for an internet fight, aren't chya? Sorry but if you're going to broadcast your own suicide then that is attention.

 

 

 

And, No, it was everybody's problem, but they chose to ignore it. Once it stared them in the face, they (tried to) shift responsibility to everyone else. Like you are, saying its nobody's fault but his.

 

 

 

Regardless of his health, he is still the one making the choices. You can't just make excuses or else you're creating a slippery slope. "Oh he was beat up by his father so it's not his fault that he is a bully!"

[BlueLancer]

 

Regardless of his health, he is still the one making the choices. You can't just make excuses or else you're creating a slippery slope. "Oh he was beat up by his father so it's not his fault that he is a bully!"

 

 

 

If you have severe behavioral defects that affect you physically, your choices are no longer fully conscious over what you say, think or do.. Take schizophrenia for example

 

 

 

Schizophrenia is a severe and disabling brain disorder characterized by abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction.

 

 

 

Clinical depression is just as bad and alters your behavior & actions

 

 

 

 

Major depressive disorder (also known as major depression, unipolar depression, unipolar disorder, or clinical depression) is a mental disorder typically characterized by a pervasive low mood, low self-esteem, and loss of interest or pleasure in usual activities.

 

 

 

Major depression is often a disabling condition which adversely affects a person's family, work or school life, sleeping and eating habits, and general health. In the United States around 3.4% of people with major depression commit suicide, and up to 60% of all people who commit suicide have depression or another mood disorder.

 

 

 

There is no logical basis to blame a person for his actions when he has next to no control over himself. Courts of law have acknowledged the medical perspective for over a century, in a lot of cases mentally sick convicts are passed on for treatment, not incarceration which just further shuts them down.

 

 

 

Bullying is an entirely different subject. It is an absolutely conscious choice if you have no mental disability. It's a stronger person selecting to abuse a weaker one, which just shows the disgusting personality of the abuser. Countless people who were beaten as a kid or had rough childhoods never become bullies; That's a choice. If the person enjoys bullying intentionally, let's just say he's "sick" in other ways.

[Zierro]

Clinical depression is just as bad and alters your behavior & actions

 

 

 

The whole universe around you is also stimuli that technically alters your behavior and actions. The question is, to prevent a slippery slope, where is that line drawn? In a nutshell, that's basically saying, "They made me do it!"

 

 

 

It is an absolutely conscious choice if you have no mental disability.

 

 

 

I think emotionally scarring experiences can be just as bad and in some cases even worse.

 

 

 

Countless people who were beaten as a kid or had rough childhoods never become bullies

 

 

 

Furthermore, countless people who have clinical depression and other disorders never committed suicide either.

 

 

 

That's a choice.

 

 

 

Suicide isn't a choice?

[Arixe]

It's sad, but it's a part of our society. Anyone can do pretty much anything on the internet nowadays. It is only a matter of time before this starts happening more and more :thumbdown: . Blame society, punish trolls that egg on people to do this stuff.

[RayOxide]

Suicide is a choice.

 

Yet, its also not a choice.

 

 

 

Many/all suicides are pretty much aided with a mental disorder or extreme abuse, but extreme abuse, its possible to not do it, you just dont want to not do it, but with a mental disorder or something along the lines of that, are almost impossible to prevent.

 

It'll happen eventually.

[stan18]

So you are you saying respect is demanded? Nah, I don't think so. Yeah, tragedies happen and no one really wants them to, but I have better things to do than morn over someone else's problems. That's just me though. There's 6 billion people on this planet. Insensitive or not, that's still a high number.

 

 

 

No one asked you to mourn over anybody's problem. No one called you insensitive, either (you brought that up, actually). I did, however, point out the fact that you judge someone in a situation you do not fully (or at all) understand. I'd rather you pay attention to that then put words in my mouth.

 

 

 

and what did respect have to do with anything? where did that come in?

 

 

 

You're just looking for an internet fight, aren't chya? Sorry but if you're going to broadcast your own suicide then that is attention.

 

 

 

please elaborate as to why? you try so hard to press your points, but you continue to not back them up. Why is it a cry for attention and not help?

 

 

 

And no, i'm not looking for an internet fight, i was just trying to spur you into explaining what you meant, i.e. explaining why you think that way.

 

 

 

apparently it didn't work =/

 

 

 

Regardless of his health, he is still the one making the choices. You can't just make excuses or else you're creating a slippery slope. "Oh he was beat up by his father so it's not his fault that he is a bully!"

 

 

 

Whose making excuses besides you? You can't just look at suicide as simply someone just killing themselves. Theres more than that, including the people and events involved. your current mentality, though, tries to ignore that part.

 

 

 

Say someone kills themself. By then i'm pretty sure you're thinking "what a fool for choosing that option"

 

 

 

say you found out he was given three choices: constant, excruciating pain for the rest of his life, a pill that would permanently make him unable to feel (emotionally), or a loaded gun.

 

 

 

Is anything any different?

 

 

 

And in case you didn't notice, i described the options for someone with major depression.

 

 

 

I'll assume that you agree that external factors played a huge role, though, with how you respond vvv later VVV

 

 

 

The whole universe around you is also stimuli that technically alters your behavior and actions. The question is, to prevent a slippery slope, where is that line drawn? In a nutshell, that's basically saying, "They made me do it!"

 

 

 

Heres a little thing about clinical psych for ya. There are points where lines have to be drawn, no doubt, but Clinical depression doesn't need a line. Its like asking a line to be drawn for movement disabilities in someone with no legs, or eyesight disability with a blind person. it is a debilitating that

 

 

 

once you understand that, i would ask that you please do not try to put everything on the same level. little things to affect one's actions; on a small scale, you turn on the lights when it gets dark, on a medium scale, passing someone with highbeams inhibits sight for a very short while, on a large scale, you turn on the lights after being in a dark room, on a huge scale, you are blinded by a grenade.

 

 

 

clinical depression is on the huge scale. i know you want to debate this, but it doesn't need a line drawn.

 

 

 

 

 

I think emotionally scarring experiences can be just as bad and in some cases even worse.

 

 

 

there are three problems with your statement. for one, you start with "i think" regarding an issue (depression) that has been studied and diagnosed for a long, long time.

 

 

 

second, you do not address what it is "worse" than.

 

 

 

worse than what, suicide? or depression?

 

 

 

if you meant depression, than maybe (because i do not know your intent, and maybe you don't either...) you are partially right, because emotionally scarring experiences are common precursors to depression.

 

 

 

but sometimes it is not; depression and other mental illnesses are also genetic

 

 

 

Furthermore, countless people who have clinical depression and other disorders never committed suicide either.

 

 

 

those people who don't become bullies escape their past. those who don't complete suicide are still living with their future. becoming a bully is a conscious choice to an external factor that stops, completeing suicide while depressed is a less painful route to an internal factor that always exists.

 

 

 

just like bluelancer says, bullying =/= suicide

 

 

 

Suicide isn't a choice?

 

 

 

once again, please do not simplify suicide like that. read what i said earlier about making decisions and how a choice isn't just the outcome, but what leads to it.

[foolgool]

It's obviously not entirely their fault. The users somehow found his phone number and address and called the cops at some point. It's still awful, but there really wasn't much they could have done.

[Carl]

It's obviously not entirely their fault. The users somehow found his phone number and address and called the cops at some point. It's still awful, but there really wasn't much they could have done.

 

 

 

Indeed it isn't, from what I've read a few days after it happened, he was going to do it anyway. Making it a live stream however, was simply looking for attention. Nothing anyone could do would stop him, unless they were to call the authorities. Yes, it is quite sad to know this happened infront of 1000's of people, but it was going to happen anyway if he had it all set up.

 

 

 

I read that he had all the pills etc set up, no one could stop him. People said he had threatened to do it before and most thought it was just a joke, which it very well could have been.

 

 

 

I seen some of the video myself, it wasn't very nice. IT's a shame it happened, but video or no video, it was going to happen anyway.

 

 

 

(sorry if I repeated some stuff in my post but my head's all over the place today)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I only saw this topic here just now, thought I'd post.

[Cyco_Reborn]

Oh well, what a shame... Slightly less carbon dioxide being produced, I suppose.

[Zierro]

No one asked you to mourn over anybody's problem. No one called you insensitive, either (you brought that up, actually). I did, however, point out the fact that you judge someone in a situation you do not fully (or at all) understand. I'd rather you pay attention to that then put words in my mouth.

 

 

 

You didn't directly say it but you sure implied it with this:

 

 

 

i bet you all feel proud of yourselves right now. who the hell are you to judge the kid's actions? do you think you know what you're talking about, you smug smartasses?

 

 

 

As you can see, you're the one who was trying to speak for us even though you misinterpreted what some of us said. All I said was broadcasting it is a form of attention. And even if he does have an illness I don't see how that invalidates the point I made.

 

 

 

please elaborate as to why? you try so hard to press your points, but you continue to not back them up. Why is it a cry for attention and not help?

 

 

 

Is a cry for help not a form of attention? And I think you're forgetting that he succeeded in killing himself so to me that doesn't really sound like "merely a cry for help". But anyways, most random people on the net don't want to deal with suicidal people so I don't think putting it on the internet is justified method of reaching out for help in the first place. There are so many other better approaches. But I guess since he's not accountable for anything he does then it's okay.. :roll:

 

 

 

Whose making excuses besides you? You can't just look at suicide as simply someone just killing themselves. Theres more than that, including the people and events involved. your current mentality, though, tries to ignore that part.

 

 

 

People saying an action is not wrong if something triggered you to do it, that's who.

 

 

 

Say someone kills themself. By then i'm pretty sure you're thinking "what a fool for choosing that option"

 

 

 

I don't think they're foolish unless their death causes more problems than it fixed (family mourning over death VS terminally ill patients). However I do think it's foolish to say that no blame belongs to the person who committed suicide.

 

 

Heres a little thing about clinical psych for ya. There are points where lines have to be drawn, no doubt, but Clinical depression doesn't need a line. Its like asking a line to be drawn for movement disabilities in someone with no legs, or eyesight disability with a blind person. it is a debilitating that

 

 

 

I don't see Clinical Depression as justification for suicide. Of course it is the reason why he did it but that doesn't mean it's a justification. I still strongly believe that in his circumstance he still did the wrong thing.

 

 

clinical depression is on the huge scale. i know you want to debate this, but it doesn't need a line drawn.

 

 

 

This scale thing is very opinionated though.

 

 

 

for one, you start with "i think" regarding an issue (depression) that has been studied and diagnosed for a long, long time.

 

 

 

Okay, so emotionally scarring experiences don't have a negative effect on someone's emotional well-being...? What point are you trying to make? I said I think some emotionally scarring experiences can be worse than depression. What's wrong with that?

 

 

 

but sometimes it is not; depression and other mental illnesses are also genetic

 

 

 

Does the fact that it is genetic render them worse though?

 

 

 

those people who don't become bullies escape their past. those who don't complete suicide are still living with their future. becoming a bully is a conscious choice to an external factor that stops, completeing suicide while depressed is a less painful route to an internal factor that always exists.

 

 

 

It stops? An emotionally scarring experience does become an internal factor. Ever hear of those cases of child molestation where one act of abuse completely changes the child's mind and messes them up? It can work the same way with a lot of things.

 

 

 

just like bluelancer says, bullying =/= suicide

 

 

 

Yeah, that would be the point in making an analogy. The point I'm making is that you can't always justify an action if something triggered you to do it.

[Kenshinjapan]

The bipolar disorder sounds like crap. Considering the bipolar disorder isn't really understood and is just another illness that doctors haven't yet pinpointed. A bipolar is supposed to drastically change within a short time emotionally, the report shouldn't have even mentioned that he was bipolar considering that that takes away from the story.

 

 

 

If someone's going to plan their suicide and advertise so hundreds will watch, there isn't going to be any changing his mind. You're a fool if you believe that your typed words are going to change the mind of some suicidal teen looking for attention.

[stan18]

Zierro, i'm going to stop trying to talk to you any more. its silly for me to waste time talking to someone who does not read everything I say (even when i take the time to address everything you say), who takes sentences out of paragraphs and puts them in his own context, who tosses red herrings EVERYWHERE, and who puts up an argument without explaining why.

 

 

 

Before you tell yourself that i'm the one whose wrong, ill show you where you did these, so maybe, somewhere along the line, you'll learn to be... uh... a little less frustrating

 

 

 

No one asked you to mourn over anybody's problem. No one called you insensitive, either (you brought that up, actually). I did, however, point out the fact that you judge someone in a situation you do not fully (or at all) understand. I'd rather you pay attention to that then put words in my mouth.

 

 

 

You didn't directly say it but you sure implied it with this:

 

 

 

i bet you all feel proud of yourselves right now. who the hell are you to judge the kid's actions? do you think you know what you're talking about, you smug smartasses?

 

 

 

As you can see, you're the one who was trying to speak for us even though you misinterpreted what some of us said. All I said was broadcasting it is a form of attention. And even if he does have an illness I don't see how that invalidates the point I made.

 

 

 

problem one: not reading what i say. I did not imply that you were insensitive. IN FACT, the very next sentence, where i mention that no one called you insensitive, i explained (in bold) why i called you what i did (in italics).

 

 

 

Even had i not put that there, there isn't even a subtle accusation of insensitivity.

 

 

 

however, you say "all i said was broadcasting it is a form of attention". Here, however, is where you imply more than you said. So no, you didn't not just say broadcasting is a form of attention. you said it to express how you believed the action was stupid. Am i right? heres the quote i'm (and you) talking about, just so you completely understand me and how words can imply meaning:

 

 

 

Why would you ever want to broadcast it for the entire world?

 

 

 

For attention... which is almost worthless when you are dead.

 

 

 

And I do agree it is a cry for attention. But that is (a cry for attention) a VERY broad, general term, in a good way, or a bad way (usually a bad way). I disagree, thus, in labeling it as a cry for attention, because it is specifically a cry for help. Merely labeling it a cry for attention (which has a negative context usually) puts everything asking for attention under a negative umbrella.

 

 

 

P.s. you said "And even if he does have an illness I don't see how that invalidates the point I made". that fits in no context of anything i've said, nor do you specify which point was invalidated

 

 

 

Is a cry for help not a form of attention? And I think you're forgetting that he succeeded in killing himself so to me that doesn't really sound like "merely a cry for help". But anyways, most random people on the net don't want to deal with suicidal people so I don't think putting it on the internet is justified method of reaching out for help in the first place. There are so many other better approaches. But I guess since he's not accountable for anything he does then it's okay..

 

 

 

Your first sentence i address (and addressed before) two paragraphs up.

 

 

 

The fact that he succeeded doesn't change the fact that it was a cry for help, its a cry for help whether or not he gets help. How do i know?

 

 

 

1) he brought it to the attention (yes, attention) of multiple people.

 

2) he did not immediately kill himself. Those who want to die will die quick (like i said before). Statistically, men choose fast, quick methods of suicide. He made it slow because he wanted people to help (i feel like i'm repeating myself)

 

 

 

Nobody wants to deal with suicidal people. Not even the people who help them want to, because they'd rather be in a world where they are not needed. My point? Only people who care will try to help. When people go for help, they go to people who are close. I said this before: his community, his life, was on that forum, thats why he went to it for attention

 

 

 

who said hes not accountable for his actions? Not i, i merely said its ignorant to jump and say hes doing it for attention when there are other major external forces influencing his actions. Though, i do agree that its ridiculous to put blame on him (maybe a little. but i guess that varies between people) over an action that he, really, has almost or no control over. Please, please understand severe depression before you make a call.

 

 

 

People saying an action is not wrong if something triggered you to do it, that's who.

 

 

 

phew, good thing thats not me

 

 

 

This scale thing is very opinionated though.

 

 

 

putting arguments without explaining why! even without your reasoning, yes it is opinionated in that it is a socially constructed scale. maybe in a society where everybody is profoundly depressed and 95% of the population completes suicide will the scale (the scale being the significance of depression in suicide) be insignificant. Until then, though, depression, whether you want it or not, is a major factor in suicide.

 

 

 

Okay, so emotionally scarring experiences don't have a negative effect on someone's emotional well-being...? What point are you trying to make? I said I think some emotionally scarring experiences can be worse than depression. What's wrong with that?

 

 

 

my point was that depression and emotionally scarring experiences are more tied then you seem to think, though i guess i was a little too general; emotionally scarring experiences are tied with most psychological disorders

 

 

 

so i was trying to say that emotionally scarring experiences lead to mental disorders. So your statement regarding scarring experiences being worse than depression i don't really see being possible, though that might be because i've never heard of a case like that (almost always the experience leads to a disorder. so, i guess you could say experiences that lead to disorders may be worse than depression because that disorder is worse than depression) if you know a case, though, i'd like to hear.

 

 

 

and the fact that it is genetic may or may not render it worse. it was not meant as an argument, however; merely it was a complement to causes of mental disorders (some people are more susceptible to some disorders, while more resilient to others, and thats genetic)

 

 

 

It stops? An emotionally scarring experience does become an internal factor. Ever hear of those cases of child molestation where one act of abuse completely changes the child's mind and messes them up? It can work the same way with a lot of things.

 

 

 

now thats another red herring. lets look at how the thought progressed. your point, when you brought up the father abusing the child, was that attributing external factors to a decision is making an excuse; the act and its responsibility lies solely on the person who made the decision. am i right? heres your quote:

 

 

 

Regardless of his health, he is still the one making the choices. You can't just make excuses or else you're creating a slippery slope. "Oh he was beat up by his father so it's not his fault that he is a bully!"

 

 

 

then, bluelancer says that bullying, thus, is different from suicide, because bullying IS, largely, a personal decision to be superior to someone. he even says that it is a personal decision when you don't have a mental disability governing your actions! that in mind, normal people's decisions to not be bullys, even with abuse (because they cope with it), makes it a different issue. (when they cannot cope with abuse, it becomes a mental disorder (usually personality disorder))

 

 

 

then i say the difference, thus, is between people who can cope (escape their past) up until it STOPS so they are normal people, and people with mental disorders. thats why bullying =/= suicide

 

 

 

BUT THEN, your statement talks about scarring experiences (and like i said, they usually lead to mental disorders). With that, you do two things. 1) you ignore what we said and drew an argument that did not related to what you said, and 2) your argument contradicts your original point (to make that clear, your point was that attributing external factors to decisions is "[making an] excuse"). you do agree, thus, that factors do have influence over decisions, huh? or are you the one making the "slippery slope"? (because, so far, it seems pretty cut and dry to me)

 

 

 

Okay. i'm done. i'm going to stop responding to you, zierro. hopefully you learned something out of this, i sure didn't. if you really, really, really want a response from me, or if you really want to tell me something, shoot me a pm, i'm not going to read your posts anymore

[stan18]

The bipolar disorder sounds like crap. Considering the bipolar disorder isn't really understood and is just another illness that doctors haven't yet pinpointed. A bipolar is supposed to drastically change within a short time emotionally, the report shouldn't have even mentioned that he was bipolar considering that that takes away from the story.

 

 

 

If someone's going to plan their suicide and advertise so hundreds will watch, there isn't going to be any changing his mind. You're a fool if you believe that your typed words are going to change the mind of some suicidal teen looking for attention.

 

 

 

isn't really understood? where did you get that from? And wow, we haven't pinpointed a lot of diseases yet (how does cancer start), does that make them a load of crap?

 

 

 

what does a bipolar changing poles have to do with anything? he was pretty obviously in the depressive pole. and why did mentioning he was bipolar take away from the article? seems like a lot of people ignored it anyways and jumped to some pretty rash conclusions, so imagine had it not been mentioned.

 

 

 

And your last statement proves that you know nothing about suicide or mental illnesses. i suggest you read whats been said before you stick with that statement

[Nadril]

The bipolar disorder sounds like crap. Considering the bipolar disorder isn't really understood and is just another illness that doctors haven't yet pinpointed. A bipolar is supposed to drastically change within a short time emotionally, the report shouldn't have even mentioned that he was bipolar considering that that takes away from the story.

 

 

 

If someone's going to plan their suicide and advertise so hundreds will watch, there isn't going to be any changing his mind. You're a fool if you believe that your typed words are going to change the mind of some suicidal teen looking for attention.

 

 

 

Maybe you should educate yourself before spouting off crap.

[BlueLancer]

I thought that was pretty damn offensive kenshin, seeing as I have known a bipolar person in real life since childhood, there are also some users on tip.it with BPD, it's absolutely *not* a load of crap.

 

 

 

It's a very specific and unfortunate mental disorder that can lead to suicide in the worst case even if the person seems happy on the outside. The mood swings associated you wouldn't wish on any person, because they are not controllable and will cause huge problems in school/work life.

[Zierro]

Zierro, i'm going to stop trying to talk to you any more. its silly for me to waste time talking to someone who does not read everything I say (even when i take the time to address everything you say), who takes sentences out of paragraphs and puts them in his own context, who tosses red herrings EVERYWHERE, and who puts up an argument without explaining why.

 

 

 

It's funny cause I can say the same exact things about you. That's why arguments about the people instead of the topic never work. But yeah, you're the one who misinterpreted my first post and took it into your own context just to make yourself look like a hero and a "smug smartass" out of me.

 

 

 

problem one: not reading what i say. I did not imply that you were insensitive. IN FACT, the very next sentence, where i mention that no one called you insensitive, i explained (in bold) why i called you what i did (in italics).

 

 

 

You're saying I am proud of acting like a smug smartass in concerns to suicide. What else is that supposed to mean?

 

 

 

however, you say "all i said was broadcasting it is a form of attention". Here, however, is where you imply more than you said. So no, you didn't not just say broadcasting is a form of attention. you said it to express how you believed the action was stupid. Am i right? heres the quote i'm (and you) talking about, just so you completely understand me and how words can imply meaning:

 

 

 

Okay. You're allowed to say what I implied but I'm not allowed to do the same to you? That's a bit hypocritical, don't you think? Quote me where I said the action is "stupid". I just said it was unjustifiable.

 

 

 

And I do agree it is a cry for attention. But that is (a cry for attention) a VERY broad, general term, in a good way, or a bad way (usually a bad way). I disagree, thus, in labeling it as a cry for attention, because it is specifically a cry for help. Merely labeling it a cry for attention (which has a negative context usually) puts everything asking for attention under a negative umbrella.

 

 

 

So you say it is a cry for attention but it's wrong to label it as a cry for attention... yep, makes loads of sense. :lol: You're the one who gave it the negative context in which you speak of - not me.

 

 

 

P.s. you said "And even if he does have an illness I don't see how that invalidates the point I made". that fits in no context of anything i've said, nor do you specify which point was invalidated

 

 

 

It is reinforcement to the first thing I said in this thread, which you strayed completely away from. Just thought I'd bring it up again.

 

 

 

The fact that he succeeded doesn't change the fact that it was a cry for help, its a cry for help whether or not he gets help. How do i know?

 

 

 

Sounds pretty fishy to me. If he really wanted help there are better alternatives. Now I guess I should accuse you of not reading anything I said since I've already mentioned that before, but that's a really stupid thing to say. ;)

 

 

 

 

1) he brought it to the attention (yes, attention) of multiple people.

 

 

 

Wow, you're agreeing with my first post which you attacked... That makes you look good. :lol:

 

 

2) he did not immediately kill himself. Those who want to die will die quick (like i said before). Statistically, men choose fast, quick methods of suicide. He made it slow because he wanted people to help (i feel like i'm repeating myself)

 

 

 

How much attention can someone have when they kill their self immediately? It's commonsense why he didn't do it right away.

 

 

 

Nobody wants to deal with suicidal people. Not even the people who help them want to, because they'd rather be in a world where they are not needed. My point? Only people who care will try to help. When people go for help, they go to people who are close. I said this before: his community, his life, was on that forum, thats why he went to it for attention

 

 

 

There you go again with the attention thing. Why the hell would you call me a smug smart [wagon] when you're saying the same exact thing?

 

 

 

And anyways not helping doesn't necessarily mean you don't care. Look up the Genovese murder case. I'm sure 30+ people didn't all want her to die.

 

 

 

who said hes not accountable for his actions? Not i, i merely said its ignorant to jump and say hes doing it for attention when there are other major external forces influencing his actions. Though, i do agree that its ridiculous to put blame on him (maybe a little. but i guess that varies between people) over an action that he, really, has almost or no control over. Please, please understand severe depression before you make a call.

 

 

 

Maybe you should be using empathy before you tell others to. I've went through severe depression and I know people very very close to me that went through and still are going through the same exact thing. I think I know exactly what I'm talking about, excluding the genetic factor though.

 

 

phew, good thing thats not me

 

 

 

"How dare you say it was for attention!"

 

 

 

putting arguments without explaining why! even without your reasoning, yes it is opinionated in that it is a socially constructed scale. maybe in a society where everybody is profoundly depressed and 95% of the population completes suicide will the scale (the scale being the significance of depression in suicide) be insignificant. Until then, though, depression, whether you want it or not, is a major factor in suicide.

 

 

 

Why should I have to explain the fact that I disagree with you when it comes to the scale thing? How about you explain that to me.

 

 

 

my point was that depression and emotionally scarring experiences are more tied then you seem to think, though i guess i was a little too general; emotionally scarring experiences are tied with most psychological disorders

 

 

 

I know that there are different levels of depression and emotional scars. That was my point in the first place. I didn't say emotional damage is always worse - just that in some cases it can be worse than depression.

 

 

 

so i was trying to say that emotionally scarring experiences lead to mental disorders. So your statement regarding scarring experiences being worse than depression i don't really see being possible, though that might be because i've never heard of a case like that (almost always the experience leads to a disorder. so, i guess you could say experiences that lead to disorders may be worse than depression because that disorder is worse than depression) if you know a case, though, i'd like to hear.

 

 

 

Look up Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. You'll find everything you need with just that example alone.

 

 

 

then i say the difference, thus, is between people who can cope (escape their past) up until it STOPS so they are normal people, and people with mental disorders. thats why bullying =/= suicide

 

 

 

Biggest double standard ever. Is suicide not a personal decision? Is Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder not a mental disability? Is it not possible to cope with suicidal thoughts?

 

 

 

 

And wow, we haven't pinpointed a lot of diseases yet (how does cancer start), does that make them a load of crap?

 

 

 

Here is another double standard. Cancer =/= Bipolar. Bipolarity is a mental disorder not a physical disease. He was talking about pinpointing psychology which is impossible at the present.

 

 

 

BUT THEN, your statement talks about scarring experiences (and like i said, they usually lead to mental disorders). With that, you do two things. 1) you ignore what we said and drew an argument that did not related to what you said, and 2) your argument contradicts your original point (to make that clear, your point was that attributing external factors to decisions is "[making an] excuse"). you do agree, thus, that factors do have influence over decisions, huh? or are you the one making the "slippery slope"? (because, so far, it seems pretty cut and dry to me)

 

 

 

Contradictory? No you completely misunderstand. My argument was used as a way of showing you how it's a double standard. I said that it's not right to always put the blame on other factors because then we could just say any bad action is justifiable as long as something caused you to do it - and I used bullying as an example.

 

 

 

Okay. i'm done. i'm going to stop responding to you, zierro. hopefully you learned something out of this, i sure didn't. if you really, really, really want a response from me, or if you really want to tell me something, shoot me a pm, i'm not going to read your posts anymore

 

 

 

You didn't learn anything? How open-minded of you. We should debate more often. :)

 

 

 

PS: What's up with not wanting to read my posts anymore? You're making it sound like you're scared.

[stan18]

i lied. i read your post. this is my last official post, i just want to make things clear

 

 

 

1) i stated in my second sentence exactly why i want to stop reading/responding to you. its just too frustrating when you don't respond to me, even when i take my time to address every single one of your arguments directly and in full, only to have your response completely misinterpret what i say. no, not misinterpret. someone would misinterpret when he or she reads something and doesn't get the right idea. i wouldn't call even call what you do misreading, because you don't even read what i say. how do i know? your responses seem to always take just a snippet of something i say (or not even a snippet. sometimes, you completely ignore things) and draw an argument and or conclusion that had been addressed a few lines later.

 

 

 

quick example: the second sentence of my previous response to you addressed why i wouldn't respond anymore. you missed that (and i assume the rest of what i said), and drew your conclusion in your p.s.

 

 

 

quick example two: your response to my "problem one:" quote (ironically). like i said, the very next sentence explained my accusation. I even bolded and italicized my specific quotes! what else do you want? i never said you are proud of acting like a smug smartass in concern to suicide (there was a completely separate sentence between those two completely different accusations!!!!!! (emphasis on completely different. somehow i think you'll miss that point) how much more separate do you want them to be?) And what does being called proud (especially in the context i put it in (hint: i said "proud of [yourself]")) directly connect to being insensitive (directly connect, because you made a connection between the two)?

 

 

 

2) you still refuse to explain what you say. this isn't just for me and you, though. if you're going to make an accusation, argument, or conclusion over something that someone (i.e. me) said, at least have the courtesy of explaining why (alongside addressing everything that that person says)

 

 

 

And no, i did not learn anything from trying to explain to you. open mindedness isn't about taking in everything the other person says, its about acknowledging (as opposed to denying or ignoring) everything they say. i was MORE than open minded. I addressed EVERYTHING you said, but what can i learn if you don't address/understand what i say back? its like talking to someone who responds with different topics. or talking to someone that doesn't speak english

 

 

 

anyways, this is really the last time im responding. i have to study for finals and i won't be checking tipit until after im done; of which this thread isn't going to be the first thing i check. if you really want me to see something, like i said, pm me; ill get an email notification. if not, then, well, enjoy the conclusions you make from this post, and i hope you someday learn to better communicate your points (that was not an insult, either).

[Zierro]

I addressed everything you said too. Stop making excuses as to why you're not making direct responses to my arguments. That's a really lame way of avoiding an actual argument. Instead of answering all the questions I put forth, you repeat yourself and label your own logic as the "right" one even though I can do the exact same thing. That's a cop-out of a true debate.

 

 

 

If you want to rip on my debating skills then that's completely fine - it doesn't hurt that much when it's coming from someone like you. ;) You lied twice by saying you wont' respond to me cause I disagree with you, and how you said you didn't learn anything.

 

 

 

i stated in my second sentence exactly why i want to stop reading/responding to you. its just too frustrating when you don't respond to me, even when i take my time to address every single one of your arguments directly and in full, only to have your response completely misinterpret what i say.

 

 

 

How about a little more intelligent rationale and a little less conceited flamage? All you are doing is the noobish: "I did everything perfectly and everything you did was flawed!"

 

 

 

And no, i did not learn anything from trying to explain to you. open mindedness isn't about taking in everything the other person says, its about acknowledging (as opposed to denying or ignoring) everything they say. i was MORE than open minded. I addressed EVERYTHING you said, but what can i learn if you don't address/understand what i say back? its like talking to someone who responds with different topics. or talking to someone that doesn't speak english

 

 

 

Are you honestly going to sit there and deny the existence of PTSD??? You told me to enlighten you about it, I did, and you are saying you haven't learned anything and that I'm the one not addressing the topic...? Whoa buddy, that backfired on you big time.

[Serpent Eye]

[hide=OP > He Said, She Said]Everyone seems to be selfishly concentrating on the fact that their words were misinterpreted by someone else.

 

 

 

It's irrelevant.

 

 

 

Someone died and a family is forever broken and you're bickering amongst yourselves.[/hide]

 

 

 

It's terribly sad to hear this.

 

 

 

What makes people interested in viewing that sort of stuff..?

[purfishx]

[hide=OP > He Said, She Said]Everyone seems to be selfishly concentrating on the fact that their words were misinterpreted by someone else.

 

 

 

It's irrelevant.

 

 

 

Someone died and a family is forever broken and you're bickering amongst yourselves.[/hide]

 

 

 

It's terribly sad to hear this.

 

 

 

What makes people interested in viewing that sort of stuff..?

 

 

 

What do you want us us to do? Practice reincarnation and bring him back from the dead? Call the family's home and say how sorry we are? Or just flood the rest of this thread with "Omg thats so sad! :cry: :cry: "

 

 

 

Flame if you must, but honestly, wtf do you want us to do? This is a thread made for discussion and that is what those two are doing, they just got a little side tracked. :roll:

[Gravy]

What the hell?

 

People made jokes whilst watching?

 

 

 

What the hell.

[purfishx]

What the hell?

 

People made jokes whilst watching?

 

 

 

What the hell.

 

 

 

Grow up you naive person. The world isn't all rainbows and butterflies believe it or not.

[Zierro]

Flame if you must, but honestly, wtf do you want us to do? This is a thread made for discussion and that is what those two are doing, they just got a little side tracked.

 

 

 

Exactly. If you honestly expect this thread to be just a huge wall of, "Aww that's sad," then maybe think again. That's forcing strangers to be sympathetic.

[Serpent Eye]

Flame if you must, but honestly, wtf do you want us to do? This is a thread made for discussion and that is what those two are doing, they just got a little side tracked.

 

 

 

Exactly. If you honestly expect this thread to be just a huge wall of, "Aww that's sad," then maybe think again. That's forcing strangers to be sympathetic.

 

 

 

There's a difference between discussing something, and having a huge, epic failure argument. They weren't discussing the original topic, as far as I could tell. They were only concerned over, "No, I said this" - "No... what I meant was this... not that..." - "See Paragraph 2, subsection A, line 34... you misquoted me, see."

 

 

 

It was far beyond discussing the OT.

 

 

 

And I certaintly don't expect anyone to feign sympathy. What I meant was, the bickering was slightly pointless when compared to the tragedy at hand. If you're going to discuss something, don't get crazy sidetracked.

 

 

 

(And not to drag up old news... I just had forgotten that I had posted in this, and checked to see if anyone quoted me :? )

[Flodder450]

lets just shut the hell up about not-reading other peoples arguments!

 

jeez.......... -.-