F2P Mage and range underpowered

[Sir_Kurity]

Think 75 mage hits 20's

 

 

 

99 range hits 18's.

 

 

 

Your probably right, but if it wont work with wave spells, and its to weak with blast spells, what more is there to do?

[howbadisbad]

Think 75 mage hits 20's

 

 

 

99 range hits 18's.

 

 

 

Your probably right, but if it wont work with wave spells, and its to weak with blast spells, what more is there to do?

 

 

 

At low levels mage is still dominant.

[Zaaps1]

Think 75 mage hits 20's

 

 

 

99 range hits 18's.

 

 

 

Your probably right, but if it wont work with wave spells, and its to weak with blast spells, what more is there to do?

 

 

 

At low levels mage is still dominant.

 

 

 

There you go. As low as combat in the low 30s, mages can get 59 magic, leading to hitting 16s. That means mages can easily smack 20s by combat 40s. Too much too soon.

 

 

 

The only 2 things mage needs:

 

 

 

1. Snare

 

2. Better defense robes

 

 

 

Those two alone would allow mage to get back into the picture at high levels.

[Youmu]

F2P range is epic. You should change the thread name.

 

 

 

Has no ko.

 

 

 

Yep. It takes me more than 10 seconds just to kill a flesh crawler. :wall:

 

(My point is, Range has the worst EXP/hour.)

[quelmotz]

Think 75 mage hits 20's

 

 

 

99 range hits 18's.

 

 

 

Your probably right, but if it wont work with wave spells, and its to weak with blast spells, what more is there to do?

 

 

 

At low levels mage is still dominant.

 

 

 

There you go. As low as combat in the low 30s, mages can get 59 magic, leading to hitting 16s. That means mages can easily smack 20s by combat 40s. Too much too soon.

 

 

 

The only 2 things mage needs:

 

 

 

1. Snare

 

2. Better defense robes

 

 

 

Those two alone would allow mage to get back into the picture at high levels.

 

 

 

Mage needs a better ko spell at higher levels... and wave isn't really that high, so either we increase the level required to cast wave spells or add some REALLY high level spells that can smack 20+ but not incredibly accurately. Don't tell me this will make mage pwn range, range hits accurate and fast 18s with medium defence, and that is far better than inaccurate 20s and lower defence.

[Youmu]

Y'know what? I think I know the conclusions from what I've tested.

 

 

 

Range: Does not have KO ability (it takes me 20 seconds to kill a minotaur :wall: ) Give them yew bows, and possibly rune arrows.

 

Magic: Very weak at high-levels (firing 16's at longsword speed? =D> ) Give them wave spells, -10% curses, and possibly snare.

 

Melee: Balanced (scimitar is a decent pk/training weapon, and 2h is the perfect "final blow" weapon) Maybe give them boots for the armor set.

 

 

 

Therefore, range and mage SHOULD have a tweak. Range isn't that good, and mage is a HELL underpowered. High-levels especially.

[Sir_Kurity]

Y'know what? I think I know the conclusions from what I've tested.

 

 

 

Range: Does not have KO ability (it takes me 20 seconds to kill a minotaur :wall: ) Give them yew bows, and possibly rune arrows.

 

Magic: Very weak at high-levels (firing 16's at longsword speed? =D> ) Give them wave spells, -10% curses, and possibly snare.

 

Melee: Balanced (scimitar is a decent pk/training weapon, and 2h is the perfect "final blow" weapon) Maybe give them boots for the armor set.

 

 

 

Therefore, range and mage SHOULD have a tweak. Range isn't that good, and mage is a HELL underpowered. High-levels especially.

 

 

 

Giving range yew bow's dosen't solve the KO problem.

 

 

 

It needs a crossbow or something.

 

 

 

Magic: Agreed.

[Zaaps1]

Think 75 mage hits 20's

 

 

 

99 range hits 18's.

 

 

 

Your probably right, but if it wont work with wave spells, and its to weak with blast spells, what more is there to do?

 

 

 

At low levels mage is still dominant.

 

 

 

There you go. As low as combat in the low 30s, mages can get 59 magic, leading to hitting 16s. That means mages can easily smack 20s by combat 40s. Too much too soon.

 

 

 

The only 2 things mage needs:

 

 

 

1. Snare

 

2. Better defense robes

 

 

 

Those two alone would allow mage to get back into the picture at high levels.

 

 

 

Mage needs a better ko spell at higher levels... and wave isn't really that high, so either we increase the level required to cast wave spells or add some REALLY high level spells that can smack 20+ but not incredibly accurately. Don't tell me this will make mage pwn range, range hits accurate and fast 18s with medium defence, and that is far better than inaccurate 20s and lower defence.

 

 

 

Mage isn't inaccurate. It's very accurate. But unlike range, magic level also translates into magic defense. So if your opponent has a higher mage level than you, will miss more often.

[llamster]

Y'know what? I think I know the conclusions from what I've tested.

 

 

 

Range: Does not have KO ability (it takes me 20 seconds to kill a minotaur :wall: ) Give them yew bows, and possibly rune arrows.

 

Magic: Very weak at high-levels (firing 16's at longsword speed? =D> ) Give them wave spells, -10% curses, and possibly snare.

 

Melee: Balanced (scimitar is a decent pk/training weapon, and 2h is the perfect "final blow" weapon) Maybe give them boots for the armor set.

 

 

 

Therefore, range and mage SHOULD have a tweak. Range isn't that good, and mage is a HELL underpowered. High-levels especially.

 

 

 

Are you kidding? Range is far, far, far, FAR more powerful than melee. I have fought rangers in BH, and they way more on my full addy (150 or so range defense) than I do on their green d'hide plus rune full helm (110 or so slash defense).

 

 

 

Your problem is that you're not range-based. Get your range to 80 and then you'll be screaming about how underpowered melee is.

[Sir_Kurity]

Yea sonic, your melee stats are roughly equivalent to 85 range.

 

 

 

And, you need to be using addy arrows to test the full potential of range.

[Youmu]

Quelmotz is the TC. Of course he has the right to get people off his thread.

 

Howbadisbad, if you don't shut up with your P2P crap, expect Quelmotz to get your posts deleted.

 

I already said, F2P >>>>>>>> P2P in terms of maturity and respect. And they have a better community.

 

 

 

Do NOT reply to this, or else a whole new flame war will just start. I'm looking at you, P2P freaks. :shame:

 

 

 

PROOF that this is true. (With exceptions like Est0rrath)

 

Unfortunately I cannot quote those flamers' fail posts because of the quote limit :wall:

 

(I'm on Quelmotz's side, btw)

 

 

 

On-Topic: I think we already got our facts straight. Range can do with a TINY boost, Mage with a good improvement, and Melee with nothing needed to update at all.

[sadukar123]

Quelmotz is the TC. Of course he has the right to get people off his thread.

 

Howbadisbad, if you don't shut up with your P2P crap, expect Quelmotz to get your posts deleted.

 

I already said, F2P >>>>>>>> P2P in terms of maturity and respect. And they have a better community.

 

 

 

Do NOT reply to this, or else a whole new flame war will just start. I'm looking at you, P2P freaks. :shame:

 

 

 

PROOF that this is true. (With exceptions like Est0rrath)

 

Unfortunately I cannot quote those flamers' fail posts because of the quote limit :wall:

 

(I'm on Quelmotz's side, btw)

 

 

 

On-Topic: I think we already got our facts straight. Range can do with a TINY boost, Mage with a good improvement, and Melee with nothing needed to update at all.

 

That's because they don't HAVE a community.

[Rainy_Day]

Righto, many posts removed. Please discontinue the pointless flame-war, or action will be taken against those who do.

 

 

 

Those involved know who they are, so can they read the rules before they even consider replying; viewtopic.php?f=7&t=794073

[The_Maddest]

Are you kidding? Range is far, far, far, FAR more powerful than melee.

 

Lies. If you're a range pure at low levels/tank at high then you have a distinct advantage, but nothing to the extent that you're saying. This is coming from someone who's played on a maxed ranged tank btw.

[howbadisbad]

Righto, many posts removed. Please discontinue the pointless flame-war, or action will be taken against those who do.

 

 

 

Those involved know who they are, so can they read the rules before they even consider replying; viewtopic.php?f=7&t=794073

 

I am not authorized to read this forum.

 

Fail.

[llamster]

Quelmotz is the TC. Of course he has the right to get people off his thread.

 

Howbadisbad, if you don't shut up with your P2P crap, expect Quelmotz to get your posts deleted.

 

I already said, F2P >>>>>>>> P2P in terms of maturity and respect. And they have a better community.

 

 

 

Do NOT reply to this, or else a whole new flame war will just start. I'm looking at you, P2P freaks. :shame:

 

 

 

PROOF that this is true. (With exceptions like Est0rrath)

 

Unfortunately I cannot quote those flamers' fail posts because of the quote limit :wall:

 

(I'm on Quelmotz's side, btw)

 

 

 

On-Topic: I think we already got our facts straight. Range can do with a TINY boost, Mage with a good improvement, and Melee with nothing needed to update at all.

 

 

 

NO. Range needs to be nerfed. Mage should have better high level content.

 

 

 

Are you kidding? Range is far, far, far, FAR more powerful than melee.

 

Lies. If you're a range pure at low levels/tank at high then you have a distinct advantage, but nothing to the extent that you're saying. This is coming from someone who's played on a maxed ranged tank btw.

 

 

 

It's a very significant difference in my experience. Admittedly I usually use addy instead of rune when Pking, but that's just another thing going against melee; full rune costs a lot more than tank ranging gear.

[quelmotz]

Ok. To summarise what we've been saying--

 

 

 

Range- Sucks at low levels, average at medium levels, totally destroys the other two styles at high levels.

 

 

 

Melee- Not too good at low levels, average at medium levels, better than mage but worse than range at high levels, but the top-notch levels melee rules.

 

 

 

Mage- Destroys at low levels, not really good at medium levels, incredibly crappy at high levels, dies even to melee.

 

 

 

See a problem yet? Range is constantly improving in power, melee is more or less at the same level, but mage becomes weaker at higher levels!! Then what do you train mage for then? To die a worse death?

[Zaaps1]

Ok. To summarise what we've been saying--

 

 

 

Range- Sucks at low levels, average at medium levels, totally destroys the other two styles at high levels.

 

 

 

Melee- Not too good at low levels, average at medium levels, better than mage but worse than range at high levels, but the top-notch levels melee rules.

 

 

 

Mage- Destroys at low levels, not really good at medium levels, incredibly crappy at high levels, dies even to melee.

 

 

 

See a problem yet? Range is constantly improving in power, melee is more or less at the same level, but mage becomes weaker at higher levels!! Then what do you train mage for then? To die a worse death?

 

 

 

How do you recommend changing this without giving mage even more power at lower levels? That's one of my big concerns. If you just give mage wave spells, then mage will just get stronger at low levels. All you'd do is delay when mage sucks by 10 levels.

[Youmu]

Maybe Range should not have the "Rapid" option? That's all I can think of to balance ranged.

 

They should replace "Rapid" to "Hard-fire", which hits higher numbers than "Accurate" does but less accurate. It's basically like the ranger's "Strength" training.

 

"Accurate" should be more accurate than this "Hard-fire", but hits lower numbers.

 

"Long-ranged" should fire even further than before. And keep the current Ranged + Defence XP training.

 

 

 

So, what I mean is to replace "Rapid", to prevent so much fast hits, to that thing I have mentioned above. THEN we can consider yew bows/rune arrows.

[Rainy_Day]

Righto, many posts removed. Please discontinue the pointless flame-war, or action will be taken against those who do.

 

 

 

Those involved know who they are, so can they read the rules before they even consider replying; viewtopic.php?f=7&t=794073

 

I am not authorized to read this forum.

 

Fail.

 

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=480329 #-o

[Zaaps1]

Maybe Range should not have the "Rapid" option? That's all I can think of to balance ranged.

 

They should replace "Rapid" to "Hard-fire", which hits higher numbers than "Accurate" does but less accurate. It's basically like the ranger's "Strength" training.

 

"Accurate" should be more accurate than this "Hard-fire", but hits lower numbers.

 

"Long-ranged" should fire even further than before. And keep the current Ranged + Defence XP training.

 

 

 

So, what I mean is to replace "Rapid", to prevent so much fast hits, to that thing I have mentioned above. THEN we can consider yew bows/rune arrows.

 

 

 

The whole point of range is to hit fast hits. Tbh I think range and melee are equal. Melee just gets power slower than ranged does, that's why ranged dominates at first. I think you all are stretching when melee gets stronger than ranged. Really, after 60-70 combat range loses its advantage. So if anything, you'd need to lower how much it hits, not its speed.

 

 

 

If you're trying to balance out the combat triangle at all levels, then you have a lot of work ahead of you. The best idea to to just get mage a small boost. That's the one I can see happening, not a total revamp of the combat system.

[The_Maddest]

Are you kidding? Range is far, far, far, FAR more powerful than melee.

 

Lies. If you're a range pure at low levels/tank at high then you have a distinct advantage, but nothing to the extent that you're saying. This is coming from someone who's played on a maxed ranged tank btw.

 

 

 

It's a very significant difference in my experience. Admittedly I usually use addy instead of rune when Pking, but that's just another thing going against melee; full rune costs a lot more than tank ranging gear.

Firstly, why the hell are you using addy armour? You have the levels for rune then use it. You wouldn't use an addy weapon, so why addy armour?

 

 

 

Secondly, cost isn't a factor - we're on about EFFECTIVNESS. Compfreak mentioned cost as well, not too sure why when we're on about underpowered-ness.

 

 

 

Finally, can I ask if that is your main account? It is extremely low levelled and definitely not a PKer. So if you're talking from first hand experiences, it's really no surprise that you get annihilated by ranged.

[llamster]

Losing 200k+ in F2P is very painful. Compfreak's argument was that the effectiveness of mage outweighed the cost, he did not say that effectiveness absolutely triumphs cost. Cost here is a very valid argument; a meleer with full rune risks full rune and a rune scimitar, around 200k. A ranger risks full green dragon hide and a rune full helm as well as some addy arrows, around 40k. If they're not using a rune 2h then they only lose the d'hide.

 

 

 

Yes it is my main. I have fought other meleers wearing addy or rune and for the most part they were matching my damage per second. But against rangers wearing, as I pointed out, very low defense equipment, it was just total domination.

 

 

 

I wouldn't consider my own experiences to be a very reliable, but just ask around. Many more experienced PKers (including compfreak) will tell you that range destroys melee except at very high combat levels. Besides you don't need personal experience to tell that range beats melee; at my level I could have close to 90 range if my melee stats were lower.

 

 

 

Really, after 60-70 combat range loses its advantage. So if anything, you'd need to lower how much it hits, not its speed.

 

 

 

 

Absurd. A 1 def 99 range pure is at least 70, never mind prayer or defense.

[quelmotz]

Ok. To summarise what we've been saying--

 

 

 

Range- Sucks at low levels, average at medium levels, totally destroys the other two styles at high levels.

 

 

 

Melee- Not too good at low levels, average at medium levels, better than mage but worse than range at high levels, but the top-notch levels melee rules.

 

 

 

Mage- Destroys at low levels, not really good at medium levels, incredibly crappy at high levels, dies even to melee.

 

 

 

See a problem yet? Range is constantly improving in power, melee is more or less at the same level, but mage becomes weaker at higher levels!! Then what do you train mage for then? To die a worse death?

 

 

 

How do you recommend changing this without giving mage even more power at lower levels? That's one of my big concerns. If you just give mage wave spells, then mage will just get stronger at low levels. All you'd do is delay when mage sucks by 10 levels.

 

 

 

I'd say, give f2p mage some spells that are equal/slightly more powerful than the wave spells, but they are of a higher level, maybe lvl 75 or so to lvl 90 or so. This will reward those who train mage to high levels, without making it overpowered at low levels. Also, give them snare, and maybe some better armor (don't tell me RC robes for god's sake. I don't see range or melee needing 50 crafting or smithing respectively to wear certain armor). Which fits sees_all's contemporary spellbook and quest almost perfectly except that that spellbook might be a bit "fluffy" with some teleports, skill boosting spells and other stuff.

[llamster]

You can still be at a very low combat level even with an extremely high mage level. I think that mage should be given wave spells, but it should require a staff that has an attack and strength requirement, maybe 40 or 50. They should also be given splitbark armor but that should require 40 defense and maybe 60 mage.