F2P Mage and range underpowered

[Frzphnx]

I don't have enough pvp experience to really comment a lot, but I guess I'll throw in a question. F2P Range/Mage are amazing at lower levels, and range definitely so in the mid levels. I remember seeing the sheer awesomeness of a 99 ranger just perhaps a level or two above me (I'm 71 combat, meh) tearing up people left and right. But what happens at the high ends? Like for the lv100+ characters? I generally chill with pvp acquaintances in fally, and anyone I see above lv100 is almost always melee. Since the range tank is designed to be below 100 combat, does it mean that in the end, melee wins at the highest levels of f2p?

[compfreak847]

Obviously, when you get into the very highest 110+ PKing levels range\maeg become seconadry (How many fights do you see where neither opponents have teleports?). However, most melee pures and PKers center around that -100 level, where they can fight into the mid crater and won't have to deal with maxed mains.

[sees_all1]

I don't have enough pvp experience to really comment a lot, but I guess I'll throw in a question. F2P Range/Mage are amazing at lower levels, and range definitely so in the mid levels. I remember seeing the sheer awesomeness of a 99 ranger just perhaps a level or two above me (I'm 71 combat, meh) tearing up people left and right. But what happens at the high ends? Like for the lv100+ characters? I generally chill with pvp acquaintances in fally, and anyone I see above lv100 is almost always melee. Since the range tank is designed to be below 100 combat, does it mean that in the end, melee wins at the highest levels of f2p?

 

 

 

Lets see if I can explain this -

 

The maximum a F2P ranger can hit is 18 on rapid.

 

The maximum a F2P melee can hit is 25 with a rune scimitar, a 32 with a rune 2h.

 

The maximum a F2P mage can hit is 16 with fire blast.

 

 

 

The scimitar and the fireblast of the mage hit with about the same frequency, the ranger hits 1.5 times faster than the others.

 

 

 

The reason a tank is overpowered is because it can max out everything, and not be combat level 126. Translation: A maxed f2p tank can deal the same amount of damage as a maxed f2p meleer in the same amount of time (assuming no armour), while still being ~20 combat levels lower.

 

The reason a f2p mage is underpowered is because it can never hit higher than 16. A f2p mage has a total slash defense of about 30, without damaging its mage abilities. ANY range, or melee will rip through that without pausing.

 

The mage class was designed so that it would hold the opponent at a distance while it got in free hits. This isn't the case - when farcasting in f2p, generally someone else will step in and pj (or even if the other person eats more than once). The other problem is that a f2p mage only has a 5 second bind. This means they can bind the opponent, get in 1 free hit before being attacked again. It doesn't even allowed you to run back a couple paces in that amount of time.

 

 

 

It seems that the standard to compare everything to is melee. If something hits a meleer with high accuracy and even decent damage, its overpowered. Which is why people say "In team situations, f2p mage is wayyyy overpowered." Oh, by the way, its supposed to be able to beat a pure meleer in a 1v1 situation, every time. People just don't get that, they think that all classes should be equal against all other classes, otherwise its overpowered.

[compfreak847]

Why are you comparing level 60 mage to level 150 attack\strength? Compare the max of the 3 classes at level 60 - all FTP needs is a few higher spells.

[quelmotz]

interesting. all f2p needs is a few higher lvl spells??? what about armor???? hitting 20s while the opponent is obliterating you with 30s because of your weak armor??? A possible way of increasing the power and defence of mages will be to make all max damages increase by 2 per new spell, like air strike(max 2), water strike(max 4), etc. Air strike and co. remain the same. That will make the spells max damage be something like this:

 

Air bolt (9)

 

water bolt (10)

 

earth bolt (12)

 

fire bolt (14)

 

Air blast (16)

 

water blast (18)

 

earth blast (20)

 

fire blast (22)

 

 

 

important:the waves will go up in power too for members to balance things out.

 

 

 

I don't have enough pvp experience to really comment a lot, but I guess I'll throw in a question. F2P Range/Mage are amazing at lower levels, and range definitely so in the mid levels. I remember seeing the sheer awesomeness of a 99 ranger just perhaps a level or two above me (I'm 71 combat, meh) tearing up people left and right. But what happens at the high ends? Like for the lv100+ characters? I generally chill with pvp acquaintances in fally, and anyone I see above lv100 is almost always melee. Since the range tank is designed to be below 100 combat, does it mean that in the end, melee wins at the highest levels of f2p?

 

 

 

f2p range amazing at low levels?!?!? It sucks like hell before you get green dhide. unless you mean like 60-70 which isnt low. its lowish mid.

 

f2p range training from lvl 1-40 is one of the most boring and slow activities you can ever experience.(other than mining) After that, its still sort of boring but it gets better.

[compfreak847]

Mage is far more accurate then melee; hybridizing with range armor works very well. FTP range is STILL faster then melee from 1-40. Pray tell what about range makes it 'more boring' then melee, despite being FASTER? Range does very well at ANY level.

[sees_all1]

Why are you comparing level 60 mage to level 150 attack\strength? Compare the max of the 3 classes at level 60 - all FTP needs is a few higher spells.

 

Alright - If mage was able to hit 25 at its current speeds for lvl 99 in F2P, and have a bind for longer than 10 seconds, most everything would be solved.

[quelmotz]

Pray tell me why range training is faster when you have to keep picking up arrows and your max hit barely surpasses 5 before lvl 40(with iron arrows-which is cost effecient)??

 

Unless you are so rich that you can use addy arrows at lvl 30 ranged??

 

 

 

I thought the max hits over. It wont be really fair if mages hit 22s at lvl 59 mage so i decided on this.

 

I think mage shouldn't be restricted to a certain max hit, but all the spells will become more powerful as your mage lvl increases. I mean would a 99 hit 2s with a bronze dagger or a normal bow? no. even with punch he can hit 10s. (even i can hit 8s with my feet)

[pureprayer]

Pray tell me why range training is faster when you have to keep picking up arrows and your max hit barely surpasses 5 before lvl 40(with iron arrows-which is cost effecient)??

 

Unless you are so rich that you can use addy arrows at lvl 30 ranged??

Melee has to eat and it takes only a few seconds to pick up arrows...

 

 

 

Who said you cant use addy arrows at 30 range?

[compfreak847]

 

Pray tell me why range training is faster when you have to keep picking up arrows and your max hit barely surpasses 5 before lvl 40(with iron arrows-which is cost effecient)??

 

Unless you are so rich that you can use addy arrows at lvl 30 ranged??

 

Because melee has 2 skills, and arrows can be picked up with no delay. Perhaps if you had trained it to a decent level you would realize this.

[Sir_Kurity]

Melee requires 2 skills to be trained up.

 

 

 

And range, dosent require you to pick up arrows if your only useing cheap ones like mithril and steel.

[quelmotz]

mithril and steel cheap?!?!? you must be a multi millionaire

 

 

 

And i dont know why jagex wanted melee to have 2 skills to train anyway. Its pointless.

[compfreak847]

Call it pointless, but that's how it is. Range and mage are both faster and cheaper to train then melee.

[Sir_Kurity]

Multi millionare?

 

 

 

It takes ages to use up 1k of arrows, without picking them up, 1k of arrows costs like 28-46k.

 

 

 

10k of arrows, its safe to say i haven't used even 8k arrows from 1-67, cost 280k-460k, significantly less than a million.

 

 

 

20k of arrows, costing slightly less than a million, will mean that if you are stingy and pick up arrows (dosent take that much time) that you will probably end up with a very high level of range.

[sees_all1]

For all of you who believe F2P Mage is under powered after a certain level, PLEASE check out the suggestions I made.

 

A link to it is in my signature.

 

Note that I put considerable effort into it, so GOOD FEEDBACK, CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, and WELL THOUGHT OUT SUGGESTIONS are appreciated. If you explicitly say support, I will add you to the list of supporters.

 

 

 

With my suggestions, I believe 1 part of the F2P triangle will be right back where it should.

 

-sees

[quelmotz]

I have my own suggestion about it in the bugs and suggestions forum. Its called "new high lvl mage spellbook!"

 

 

 

That is a lot of money for a starting out f2per. you mems are so damn rich they couldn't be bothered about such a "small" amount.

[The_Maddest]

It's typical in members because of the accumulator relying on a ranging body, it tends to carry over.

 

 

 

I have used range tanks extensively, making it quite obvious that rune works. It's called tank armor for a reason :roll:

 

 

 

Oh, and cost doesn't matter? Which would you rather PK, 5 250k rune pures or 5 30k range pures? Which would you rather die in? If you go in welfare gear, yes, your going to lose more fights.

The rune full helm/legs combo has been around for a lot longer than you accumulator.

 

 

 

Have you used ranged tanks in F2P though? Providing you don't abuse the combat system and get 99 ranged and 99 defence with around 100 combat, they don't 'own' to the degree you describe. Sure, they last a little longer against melee but both the melee and the ranger hit with about the same frequency (at higher levels). At lower levels tanks get owned by pure rangers.

 

 

 

If you know much about PKing in F2P, then you'll know that full armour fights only have a minuscule chance of resulting in a kill, which is why everyone uses your 'tank melee gear', also known as the only melee gear.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, now we're only talking about mages with exactly 59 magic or under?

 

If the account you're talking about is a mage pure, then yes it is great until around 40 combat where you reach 59 magic. Meleers at that level will hit around 12s with scimitar so magic will hit higher and probably more accurately. Pity the "mage >> melee" principle doesn't work with anything other than magic pures under 40 combat.

 

Glad to see you got the point.

Having done a little research, magic maxes out (59 magic) at around 42-43 combat, at which point meleers often get 40 defence for d'hide chaps and vambs, hit 13-14 with a scimi (and around 16-17 with 2h), and do very well in fights with mages. At this point the combat triangle is NOT 'mage>>melee' even though mage has just got fire blast.

 

 

 

Also, what do you consider a win? Your opponent running from you or keeling over and dying at your feet? The former can just be achieved by flicking on a protection prayer, but the latter isn't achieved by magicians at any level, due to their total lack of a KO.

 

 

 

Again, do you have experience with mage pures? It certainly doesn't sound like it. I have, and the only place I managed to PK with them was low level varrok wildy, and by the time I got to blasts (wind), my PKs didn't make enough money to cover the rune and food costs, and other combat styles started to get lots of kills as well. I didn't even bother PKing in solo because you NEVER get a kill and it is just a waste of resources

 

 

 

 

 

Mage is far more accurate then melee; hybridizing with range armor works very well.

Yes, mage is far more accurate on rune than a scimitar or addy arrows are on rune armour, but the mage is still easily outhit by the meleer because the robes (or d'hide) give very little magic defence.

 

 

 

Range does very well at ANY level.

Except the low levels, where it sucks. Really, the guy has a point, range doesn't stand a chance in the low levels, before around 30-40 ranged due to its accuracy being about the same or less than melee's, and the power being rather low.

 

 

 

I don't have enough pvp experience to really comment a lot, but I guess I'll throw in a question. F2P Range/Mage are amazing at lower levels, and range definitely so in the mid levels. I remember seeing the sheer awesomeness of a 99 ranger just perhaps a level or two above me (I'm 71 combat, meh) tearing up people left and right. But what happens at the high ends? Like for the lv100+ characters? I generally chill with pvp acquaintances in fally, and anyone I see above lv100 is almost always melee. Since the range tank is designed to be below 100 combat, does it mean that in the end, melee wins at the highest levels of f2p?

Well ranged is still used under around 115 combat, but above that, generally speaking, people tend to melee.

[quelmotz]

Thanks the_maddest for your support. :thumbsup:

 

I dont have much experience pking with ranged so i dont know too much about it. But maybe ill edit my first post to range being underpowered at lower levels not all the time.

[Sir_Kurity]

 

Having done a little research, magic maxes out (59 magic) at around 42-43 combat, at which point meleers often get 40 defence for d'hide chaps and vambs, hit 13-14 with a scimi (and around 16-17 with 2h), and do very well in fights with mages. At this point the combat triangle is NOT 'mage>>melee' even though mage has just got fire blast.

 

 

 

 

59 mage is equivalent to 40 attack and 48 strength, assuming you want rune thats just about as good as you can get. Max is 17 with aggressive style strength potion AND ultimate strength. Which requires 31 prayer.

 

 

 

Also, no setup with 40 defense and attack and str equivalent of 59 mage can be level 42.

 

 

 

So assuming Meleer has these stats.

 

40 attack

 

48 str

 

40 def

 

50 hp

 

40 range (d'hide)

 

31 prayer

 

He is level 54.

 

 

 

A mage setup would be

 

59 mage.

 

50 hp.

 

40 defense

 

31 prayer (Why not put them on even ground)

 

Level 51

 

 

 

Meleer hits a max of 13 with longsword, with less accuracy than the mage due to defense level AND mage being accurate. The KO dose 1 hit more than the mages normal hit.

 

 

 

Mage dose constant 16's.

 

 

 

And yes, i have f2p pked, before i went member shortly after the introduction of PVP worlds, i had a similar setup without defense and with 43 prayer, and NO ONE my level could stand a chance except for this one range 2her =S.

[compfreak847]

 

Have you used ranged tanks in F2P though? Providing you don't abuse the combat system and get 99 ranged and 99 defence with around 100 combat, they don't 'own' to the degree you describe. Sure, they last a little longer against melee but both the melee and the ranger hit with about the same frequency (at higher levels). At lower levels tanks get owned by pure rangers.

 

Yep, I have. Curious about this 'abuse of the combat system', I suppose beating meelers is considered 'abuse'? I'll be sure to report the next tank I see.

 

 

 

 

Again, do you have experience with mage pures? It certainly doesn't sound like it. I have, and the only place I managed to PK with them was low level varrok wildy, and by the time I got to blasts (wind), my PKs didn't make enough money to cover the rune and food costs, and other combat styles started to get lots of kills as well. I didn't even bother PKing in solo because you NEVER get a kill and it is just a waste of resources.

 

Yep, I have. I don't think I've ever profited over any long stretch in a 40- PKer using lobsters. The high hits from mage got me considerably more kills then range, though, and the distance attacks were a huge help.

 

 

 

Except the low levels, where it sucks. Really, the guy has a point, range doesn't stand a chance in the low levels, before around 30-40 ranged due to its accuracy being about the same or less than melee's, and the power being rather low.

 

Melee is what, level 20 attack and strength? Really, no one is going to be PKing at level 12 combat. Range does, however, train much faster then melee at any level.

 

 

 

Well ranged is still used under around 115 combat, but above that, generally speaking, people tend to melee.

 

Really? What tipped you off on that, the fact that range maxes out at under 100 combat? This point has been beat into the ground. I'm not talking about where melee maxes out, I'm talking about where RANGE maxes out. A 115 meleer won't even be able to attack most tank rangers.

[The_Maddest]

Having done a little research, magic maxes out (59 magic) at around 42-43 combat, at which point meleers often get 40 defence for d'hide chaps and vambs, hit 13-14 with a scimi (and around 16-17 with 2h), and do very well in fights with mages. At this point the combat triangle is NOT 'mage>>melee' even though mage has just got fire blast.

 

 

 

 

59 mage is equivalent to 40 attack and 48 strength, assuming you want rune thats just about as good as you can get. Max is 17 with aggressive style strength potion AND ultimate strength. Which requires 31 prayer.

 

 

 

Also, no setup with 40 defense and attack and str equivalent of 59 mage can be level 42.

 

 

 

So assuming Meleer has these stats.

 

40 attack

 

48 str

 

40 def

 

50 hp

 

40 range (d'hide)

 

31 prayer

 

He is level 54.

 

 

 

A mage setup would be

 

59 mage.

 

50 hp.

 

40 defense

 

31 prayer (Why not put them on even ground)

 

Level 51

 

 

 

Meleer hits a max of 13 with longsword, with less accuracy than the mage due to defense level AND mage being accurate. The KO dose 1 hit more than the mages normal hit.

 

 

 

Mage dose constant 16's.

 

 

 

And yes, i have f2p pked, before i went member shortly after the introduction of PVP worlds, i had a similar setup without defense and with 43 prayer, and NO ONE my level could stand a chance except for this one range 2her =S.

I'm sorry, I meant 40 ranged for the d'hide. Defence is not needed for chaps and vambs :P

 

 

 

Compfreak talks about 'when mage maxes out' which is without defence and without prayer, which is around 42-43. Melee around that level does hit 13s-14s with scimi and 16s-17s with 2h. Don't bother trying to estimate a hp level, just check pures fighting on PvP worlds and see how hard they hit. Typically they wear d'hide chaps if they have 40 ranged. This means the meleer has high defence against magic, the mager has no defence against melee, the melee hits slightly faster than the mager, with slightly less power and has a KO weapon. Melee may even win at this point.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, I have. Curious about this 'abuse of the combat system', I suppose beating meelers is considered 'abuse'? I'll be sure to report the next tank I see.

If pures are told that they're 'abusing the combat system', then 99 defence 99 ranged tanks sure as hell are. Would you like to expand on how much and at what levels you have PKed on pures, and the same about tanks? Safe PvP does not count.

 

 

 

Yep, I have. I don't think I've ever profited over any long stretch in a 40- PKer using lobsters. The high hits from mage got me considerably more kills then range, though, and the distance attacks were a huge help.

Could you possibly be more vague about what you say? #-o Where did you PK using magic where you could use distance to your advantage? It sure wasn't edgeville, and I've already discussed multi-combat PKing. You wouldn't have been able to get a considerable number of kills PKing in the deep wilderness on your own because low levels don't venture there when not in a team. Also, at what combat level are we talking about here?

 

 

 

Except the low levels, where it sucks. Really, the guy has a point, range doesn't stand a chance in the low levels, before around 30-40 ranged due to its accuracy being about the same or less than melee's, and the power being rather low.

 

Melee is what, level 20 attack and strength? Really, no one is going to be PKing at level 12 combat. Range does, however, train much faster then melee at any level.

What kinda low-level PKer trains attack and strength at the same rate?

 

 

 

Oh, and many people including me have PKed at combats lower than 12. Heck, I started PKing on some of my accounts at level 3. Sure, it wasn't profitable -- pures hardly ever are, but it was fun, and people did get kills.

 

 

 

Really? What tipped you off on that, the fact that range maxes out at under 100 combat? This point has been beat into the ground. I'm not talking about where melee maxes out, I'm talking about where RANGE maxes out. A 115 meleer won't even be able to attack most tank rangers.

What tipped me off was what most of the PKers 115+ on W21 were wearing when fighting :wall: . Most tank rangers? Most tank rangers have combat levels of above 100 because they've trained melee as well. Besides, a 99 defence 99 ranged account will never, ever get kills solo PKing solely because they lack a KO. Sure, they'd win a DM but no one in that low combat range ever fights till the death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look, the topic is named 'F2P Mage and range underpowered'. So far you've said that ranged is not underpowered as long as it has no defence, no prayer and no melee/ranged levels (despite the fact they still suck for a large proportion of that time).

 

You've also said that rangers aren't underpowered if they don't train melee (despite the fact they'll never get a kill when not in a DM).

 

The fact is, in general fights, melee is needed to win! Mages do not own and rangers need a 2H to get a kill.

[compfreak847]

If pures are told that they're 'abusing the combat system', then 99 defence 99 ranged tanks sure as hell are. Would you like to expand on how much and at what levels you have PKed on pures, and the same about tanks? Safe PvP does not count.

 

Show ANY place where I have said that pures are abusing the combat system. Pures are a weak, outdated type of combat style that lose to 'modern' weapons and armor. I have PKed on pures up to 94 range (Level on my old pure before I realized defence tank was the way to go), and tanked from 40-99 defence\60-99 range on a range tank. I treat safe PVP the same way as dangerous, using the same food, inventory, and teleports and counting deaths the same way, but aside from that I also have considerably experience in PVP worlds, bounty hunter, and the old wilderness.

 

 

 

Could you possibly be more vague about what you say? #-o Were did you PK using magic where you could use distance to your advantage? It sure wasn't edgeville, and I've already discussed multi-combat PKing. You wouldn't have been able to get a considerable number of kills PKing in the deep wilderness on your own because low levels don't venture there when not in a team. Also, at what combat level are we talking about here?

 

Wilderness PKing, varying from the castle to level 1 wildy around edge. Against melee I simply dodged a tree if I was being piled or the fight was going bad, then logged. Combat levels ranging from 40-95

 

 

 

What kinda low-level PKer trains attack and strength at the same rate?

 

 

 

Oh, and many people including me have PKed at combats lower than 12. Heck, I started PKing on some of my accounts at level 3. Sure, it wasn't profitable -- pures hardly ever are, but it was fun, and people did get kills.

 

Anyone who plans to train high. The better weapons make attack training just as worthwhile until you hit 40. Very, very few PKers pk at level 12-, so I don't think that's much of an issue. As mentioned before, you obviously won't be profiting.

 

 

 

What tipped me off was what most of the PKers 115+ on W21 were wearing when fighting :wall: . Most tank rangers? Most tank rangers have combat levels of above 100 because they've trained melee as well. Besides, a 99 defence 99 ranged account will never, ever get kills solo PKing solely because they lack a KO. Sure, they'd win a DM but no one in that low combat range ever fights till the death.

 

Because of the BH limit, tank rangers rarely exceed level 100; those who do end up PKing maxed meleers, and obviously losing. Range relies on fast, accurate hits to get a KO; I have gotten many KOes from the speed of a short bow. Melee has too slow of attack for an effective KO; if you watch carefully, you can eat at least 1 piece of food before a 2h comes out.

 

 

 

 

Look, the topic is named 'F2P Mage and range underpowered'. So far you've said that ranged is not underpowered as long as it has no defence, no prayer and no melee/ranged levels (despite the fact they still suck for a large proportion of that time).

 

You've also said that rangers aren't underpowered if they don't train melee (despite the fact they'll never get a kill when not in a DM).

 

The fact is, in general fights, melee is needed to win! Mages do not own and rangers need a 2H to get a kill.

 

Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I said. Range is not underpowered as long as it has high defence and prayer, and melee isn't affecting combat level. Obviously if your trying to fight with a combat stat much lower then your level, like the OPs or yours, you will not do well. It's like trying to melee with 99 range, 100 combat, and level 25 attack and stength :roll:

[Hubs]

 

Really? What tipped you off on that, the fact that range maxes out at under 100 combat? This point has been beat into the ground. I'm not talking about where melee maxes out, I'm talking about where RANGE maxes out. A 115 meleer won't even be able to attack most tank rangers.

 

 

 

Tanks max out at 122 combat in P2P, 109 combat in F2P. A maxed out tank ranger not using summoning will be able to be attacked by 125's.

 

 

 

 

 

Most tank rangers have combat levels of above 100 because they've trained melee as well.

 

Those are known as "Wannabe Tanks" or "Failed Tanks". Just wanted to point that out.

[compfreak847]

 

 

 

Tanks max out at 122 combat in P2P, 109 combat in F2P. A maxed out tank ranger not using summoning will be able to be attacked by 125's.

 

If a tank goes for 99 defence, he will be 101 combat; hence why most tanks stick at slightly below. Check it out in the combat calculator. Summoning has no effect on PVP combat level, so I'm not quite sure where this '122 combat in PTP' is coming from.

[Sir_Kurity]

Your "ko" weapon dose 1 more damage than fire blast.