F2P Mage and range underpowered

[The_Maddest]

Not when the price isnt even THAT much more than melee. Especially in PVP situations.

Erm, yes it is. Especially when you farcast. And when you don't get a kill it constitutes as a large loss of money.

[Sir_Kurity]

Not in f2p.

 

 

 

Sure, in p2p you can lose up to 2k per cast, but in f2p you never really lose more than 300, and thats pretty small. And, you can lose just as much in melee when you die because you can get pjed and die, as ANY class. Possibly more likely as a meleer because your close up, and will be at lower health when you get pjed, it really depends on the method in which you pk. All in all, pjing is nothing more than a nuisance.

 

 

 

Sure, if your poor, like, really poor, then you won't be able to mage properly, but it even says in the title MAGE IS UNDERPOWERED. And i read the initial post, and it says nothing about the price.

 

 

 

Thus, im not caring about the price.

[The_Maddest]

Not in f2p.

 

 

 

Sure, in p2p you can lose up to 2k per cast, but in f2p you never really lose more than 300, and thats pretty small. And, you can lose just as much in melee when you die because you can get pjed and die, as ANY class. Possibly more likely as a meleer because your close up, and will be at lower health when you get pjed, it really depends on the method in which you pk. All in all, pjing is nothing more than a nuisance.

 

 

 

Sure, if your poor, like, really poor, then you won't be able to mage properly, but it even says in the title MAGE IS UNDERPOWERED. And i read the initial post, and it says nothing about the price.

 

 

 

Thus, im not caring about the price.

Firstly, what level ranges are you talking about? If you're like compfreak and only talk about cbt35- then I have no debate with you.

 

 

 

You do lose more than 300gp, a lot more. Each Fire Blast loses you around 290gp and each bind about 450. Magic doesn't get you KOs in F2P (dunno about P2P) therefore you're trying to run the opponent out of food. Let's presume your opponent has in his inventory:

 

-1 str pot

 

-1 R2H

 

- 26 lobsters

 

Usually they will have a teleport as well, but we're assuming that they die so they don't have a teleport. This means you need to take off 75+26*12 damage = 387. Obviously the hp level will vary a little depending on what levels you're fighting.

 

 

 

This calculation assumes one of around 95-100. Magic has a max hit of 16, and compfreak himself has proved that all hits average out as the mean hit, which is 8. This means that not including fire blast splashes, the the mage uses 387/8 casts = 48.375 (round to 48) which costs around 13-15k.

 

 

 

Now unless the mage wants to get owned, they need to be farcasting. This means one bind per blast. In my experiences binding, even with druidic has a fail rate of around 10%. So this means 48+4.8 binds = 53 (rounded) which costs about 23-25k.

 

 

 

So far the magician loses 36-40k per fight. Add on another 9k for an inventory full of swordfish/pizzas and you get 46-50k lost per fight. This is likely to be even higher because the meleer will take off his armour, increasing failed spell rates. Also, bear in mind you only get loot if the meleer doesn't run/teleport (very unlikely), and you don't get PJ'd during your fight (also very unlikely). Oh and don't forget, most full rune kills only give around 50-60k loot so you'll be working very hard to break even.

 

 

 

In my opinion, yes, cost is a large factor as to whether I choose to PK as a mage or not. Personally I only PvP as a mage during wars/PK Trips with my clan. Here it is used to great effect \

 

 

 

Oh and BTW, I have no experience with any sort of dangerous P2P PvP. As my profile says I'm currently F2P and have been for quite a long while.

[quelmotz]

Appreciate your support The_Maddest.

 

 

 

Anyway, this thread is about f2p so p2p is out of the question.

[compfreak847]

Firstly, what level ranges are you talking about? If you're like compfreak and only talk about cbt35- then I have no debate with you.

 

Why are you continuing to compare mage to level 90-100 when it maxes out at level 35? If you can prove that it is indeed inferior at the 60+ range, good job - you've shown that combat level works, and I fully agree with you. I'll side with any argument against FTP mage at 60+ combat. But if you argue against another level 33-35, mage WILL win - continuing to verify my 'mage maxes out too early' argument. I don't understand what your arguing about.

[Sir_Kurity]

Why do i even bother. Yes i agree, mage sucks at level 100, it needs to max out earlyer, but until it dose, it is superior to melee, and gives range a run for its money as well.

 

 

 

Can anyone tell me a video program so i can make RS videos, when i have the duel with mr meleer (after 59 magic) i want to record it to prove how much i owned him.

[compfreak847]

 

Can anyone tell me a video program so i can make RS videos, when i have the duel with mr meleer (after 59 magic) i want to record it to prove how much i owned him.

 

Try hypercam. You'll end up with a watermark, but it's free and easy to use. I look forward to seeing the 35's duel :lol:

[The_Maddest]

I look forward to seeing the 35's duel :lol:

Check out F2P PvP GE :thumbup:

 

 

 

 

 

continuing to verify my 'mage maxes out too early' argument.

You've said this so much that it's starting to ring in my ears :( . I don't want to have to keep saying the same things over and over again. So I'll move the discussion on a little:

 

Do you have any ideas as to how magic could max out a little later without completely overpowering it? In you answer keep in mind solo and clan PKing, low wilderness and deep, large clans and small clans.

[compfreak847]

 

Check out F2P PvP GE :thumbup:

 

 

Err, what? There isn't many pure mages dueling pure meleers in optimal gear with known stats, outfits, and inventories. It's a 'test it myself' situation.

 

 

 

You've said this so much that it's starting to ring in my ears :( . I don't want to have to keep saying the same things over and over again. So I'll move the discussion on a little:

 

Do you have any ideas as to how magic could max out a little later without completely overpowering it? In you answer keep in mind solo and clan PKing, low wilderness and deep, large clans and small clans.

 

Really, all that's needed are longer binding spells (make a level 75, 10 second binding spell with high accuracy) and more accurate spells. Make a spell set that almost never misses with a positive mage bonus, boost the level required for it in the 80s, and release it in combination with bind and teleblock (already done).

[Sir_Kurity]

I got 38 magic now, and full rc robes (best f2p robes for 1 defense) So, I'm almost ready to duel.

 

 

 

Might as well put up what i need now. Ok, we are going to duel in the duel arena, best out of 3. If there have been 2 fights and its still drawed, the last fight will be in edge wildy PVP worlds (lets make it interesting and say both skulled with 75k)

 

 

 

We are only allowed to use your combat style, in this case, i will use mage, and opponents are only allowed melee, you may use whatever armor you wish.

 

 

 

There is to be no overhead prayers, though you are allowed ultimate strength, super reflexes (etc).

 

 

 

We will have say. 12 pieces of food per fight otherwise it will take to long, so you will need to show me 12 pieces of food (swordfish) and the rest of inventory filled with ashes, potions (or other slot filler) so you cant cheat, I will do the same.

 

 

 

Aside from that, I'm just waiting for a challenger who will accept my turns, i estimate my combat level to be somewhere from 35-40, i will duel anyone within 2 levels of me. Good luck, you are allowed potions.

[compfreak847]

Est0, your training your HP too high. You should be 35 at the max, and if he's getting prayer he'll be a lot lower. Are you going to compare him to a "pure-training-higher" build with rune scimmy, or a "pure-staying-low" with a steel\black?

[Sir_Kurity]

Don't worry, I'm gonna start cursing, super heating to level magic as soon as i get to 28 hp.

 

 

 

Look, i will fight 5 people, all with different builds if possible, to get as varyed results as possible.

[compfreak847]

It's not varied results we want, it's accurate. If a player knows he's going to fight a mage, he can show up in leather if he wants to - but in real fighting, he's going to be in full iron. Keep the outfits what they really are.

[Sir_Kurity]

Lets just say wizard hat, iron platebody, and iron legs.

 

 

 

I haven't seen many low level meleers in dragonhide for a while.

 

 

 

Tell you what compfreak, why don't you make up the rules, and i will go by those.

 

 

 

Duel will be postponed for up to 2 months, ive got other things to do and i cant be bothered leveling magic at the moment.

[The_Maddest]

Really, all that's needed are longer binding spells (make a level 75, 10 second binding spell with high accuracy) and more accurate spells. Make a spell set that almost never misses with a positive mage bonus, boost the level required for it in the 80s, and release it in combination with bind and teleblock (already done).

Now I'm not in a huge clan but I've discussed this sorta thing with them before and they all say that a 10 second holding spell would be hugely overpowering. The guy will be dead before the snare wears off without the chance to tank. Coupled with super high accuracy :ohnoes:

 

 

 

And about those spells that never miss -- Most players of higher combat wear rune all the time while protecting melee anyway meaning that magic already gets most of the hits in multi PvP. And you want to make magic even MORE accurate? Do you want people to have to tank in full d'hide #-o

[compfreak847]

Now I'm not in a huge clan but I've discussed this sorta thing with them before and they all say that a 10 second holding spell would be hugely overpowering. The guy will be dead before the snare wears off without the chance to tank. Coupled with super high accuracy :ohnoes:

 

 

 

And about those spells that never miss -- Most players of higher combat wear rune all the time while protecting melee anyway meaning that magic already gets most of the hits in multi PvP. And you want to make magic even MORE accurate? Do you want people to have to tank in full d'hide #-o

 

Any other suggestions you have on the 'mage is underpowered' thread, besides that any slightly more powerful spells would be insanely overpowered #-o

[LatinII]

Really, all that's needed are longer binding spells (make a level 75, 10 second binding spell with high accuracy) and more accurate spells. Make a spell set that almost never misses with a positive mage bonus, boost the level required for it in the 80s, and release it in combination with bind and teleblock (already done).

Now I'm not in a huge clan but I've discussed this sorta thing with them before and they all say that a 10 second holding spell would be hugely overpowering. The guy will be dead before the snare wears off without the chance to tank. Coupled with super high accuracy :ohnoes:

 

 

 

And about those spells that never miss -- Most players of higher combat wear rune all the time while protecting melee anyway meaning that magic already gets most of the hits in multi PvP. And you want to make magic even MORE accurate? Do you want people to have to tank in full d'hide #-o

 

 

 

Blast spells are not accurate at all. I usually hit around 7-10 on people wearing full rune armour. I don't hit 16's very often, even though I have the highest magic attack a F2P Mage can have.

 

 

 

And regarding Snare, this is a must if a Mage wants to fight on his own. Bind simply lasts too short. Currently Mages are only usefull in clan wars, for Binding. It can't fight on it's own against people that are 100+ in CB.

[compfreak847]

 

Blast spells are not accurate at all. I usually hit around 7-10 on people wearing full rune armour. I don't hit 16's very often, even though I have the highest magic attack a F2P Mage can have.

 

Why are you listing how high you hit? That has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy. Accuracy is how often you splash. I haven't done a hit spread chart for fire blast yet (barrage, d claws, and AGS have taken priority) but until then vague responses like 'usually hitting 7-10' are completely worthless.

[LatinII]

 

Blast spells are not accurate at all. I usually hit around 7-10 on people wearing full rune armour. I don't hit 16's very often, even though I have the highest magic attack a F2P Mage can have.

 

Why are you listing how high you hit? That has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy. Accuracy is how often you splash. I haven't done a hit spread chart for fire blast yet (barrage, d claws, and AGS have taken priority) but until then vague responses like 'usually hitting 7-10' are completely worthless.

 

 

 

:? Well, mages should hit high on people wearing melee armour, but rarely do I hit 10+. So I can't really call it an accurate spell.

[compfreak847]

 

:? Well, mages should hit high on people wearing melee armour, but rarely do I hit 10+. So I can't really call it an accurate spell.

 

What on earth are you talking about? How often you hit and how high you hit are COMPLETELY separate. How OFTEN you hit is determined by the opponents defence, your magic level, and your magic bonus. That's "accuracy". How HARD you hit is determined by the hit spread for that particular spell, generally clustering around the central portion of the spectrum. At any rate, hit spread charts take 10+ hours to make, so I haven't gotten around to them. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy, so why are you bothering to list how high your hits are?

[LatinII]

 

:? Well, mages should hit high on people wearing melee armour, but rarely do I hit 10+. So I can't really call it an accurate spell.

 

What on earth are you talking about? How often you hit and how high you hit are COMPLETELY separate. How OFTEN you hit is determined by the opponents defence, your magic level, and your magic bonus. That's "accuracy". How HARD you hit is determined by the hit spread for that particular spell, generally clustering around the central portion of the spectrum. At any rate, hit spread charts take 10+ hours to make, so I haven't gotten around to them. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy, so why are you bothering to list how high your hits are?

 

 

 

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean with "generally clustering around the central portion of the spectrum"? English isn't my mother language.

[compfreak847]

 

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean with "generally clustering around the central portion of the spectrum"? English isn't my mother language.

 

It's just a description of the hits ranging from 1-16, I don't have a graph to show you. Basically meaning where most of the hits lie on the spectrum from 1-16; it's called a hit spread chart.

 

 

 

But it has nothing to do with spell accuracy.

[The_Maddest]

Any other suggestions you have on the 'mage is underpowered' thread, besides that any slightly more powerful spells would be insanely overpowered #-o

What the heck did you just say? If you're asking what I think should be added, I'm stumped as to how F2P magic can be balanced, which is why I was asking you.

 

 

 

Accuracy is how often you splash.

And magic has a very high relative accuracy compared to the rune scimitar or adamant arrows.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean with "generally clustering around the central portion of the spectrum"? English isn't my mother language.

I don't have a graph to show you.

It's just a bell shaped curve.

[LatinII]

 

Sorry, but what exactly do you mean with "generally clustering around the central portion of the spectrum"? English isn't my mother language.

 

It's just a description of the hits ranging from 1-16, I don't have a graph to show you. Basically meaning where most of the hits lie on the spectrum from 1-16; it's called a hit spread chart.

 

 

 

But it has nothing to do with spell accuracy.

 

 

 

Oh okay. I never knew it worked like that. I just thought that, because I hit low on people wearing rune armour, while magic is meant to hit hard on people wearing melee armour, the spells were inacurrate. Thanks for explaining.

[compfreak847]

 

Oh okay. I never knew it worked like that. I just thought that, because I hit low on people wearing rune armour, while magic is meant to hit hard on people wearing melee armour, the spells were inacurrate. Thanks for explaining.

 

Glad I could clear it up :P