F2P Mage and range underpowered

[quelmotz]

Snare wouldn't be overpowered if you're pking by yourself. It would only be overpowered in clans. I mean when by yourself, using binding spells would be usually yo gain you extra time to run back, maybe eat, change equipment, then maybe get a extra hit in and that's all. However, in clans, one mage can snare and the snared guy will get barraged with magic and arrows.

[Cacmypants]

I think Jagex should just let F2P have access to buying and using Splitbark from the GE/other players instead of creating a whole new set of robes.

 

 

 

Reason:

 

 

 

Not many member actually USE splitbark anyway, it's pretty much obsolete as soon as you can wear it (the mage bonus blows hard compared to mystic) and once you can wear Ahrims, who needs anything else?! At least Non-members will make some use of it, as it is better than normal robes and more convieniant than the FoG Robes

 

 

 

Here's some stats:

 

 

 

Full Splitbark

 

Requires 40 magic and defense (EASILY achieveable in F2P)

 

Defense Bonuses:

 

Stab +74

 

Slash +59

 

Crush +86

 

Magic Attack:

 

+24 (+49 when with ammy and staff) :thumbup:

 

 

 

Oldschool mage gear :ugeek:

 

Requires NOTHING :roll:

 

Defense Bonuses:

 

Stab +0 :thumbsup:

 

Slash +0 \

 

Crush +0 =D>

 

Magic Attack:

 

+5... (+30 with staff and ammy) :wall:

 

 

 

FoG gear

 

Requires magic 20 and defense 10

 

Defense Bonuses

 

Stab +3

 

Slash +3

 

Crush +3

 

Magic Attack

 

+16 (+41 with staff and ammy)

 

 

 

Comparing Splitbark and FoG gear, we can see than Splitbark is statistically MUCH better, but the FoG are more desirable for training as they can save runes.

 

 

 

And as you can see, it's not a HUGE boost to F2P magic proficiency if Jagex allowed splitbark, it just means they can stand a chance against equivilant meleers LIKE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO.

 

 

 

Plus, I believe it is possible to see the splitbark mage npc in F2P worlds in wizard's tower so it's not a whacked out idea. Its actually a GOOD idea, it means that the price of splitbark will increase significantly due to non-member demand, therefore making it cheaper to obtain through the splitbark npc in wizard's tower (for members only), it breathes some life back into the temple building minigame, giving people an INCENTIVE to actually play it.

 

 

 

All in all, if F2P had access to splitbark, it might actually make the solo mage over level 45 decent. (Besides the fact they would still get PWNT by rangers, but that's a given). At least having splitbark will give F2P accounts a goal concerning robes passed level 20 magic, it will end at 40 magic as does defense and range at the other points of the triangle.

[compfreak847]

That's a good idea, splitbark would be nice for mage attack. I would recommend boosting the required level though, it should be at least 60.

[The_Maddest]

Whoa, 56 slash defence with splitbark? I want some of that \ . The higher magic attack would probably make up for the higher binding ability of druidic robes. This will also screw over all the lower levelled snipers :D

[Cacmypants]

That's a good idea, splitbark would be nice for mage attack. I would recommend boosting the required level though, it should be at least 60.

 

 

 

I personally don't think that splitbark denotes magic level 60 considering infinity robes require magic level 50 and give a whopping +55 magic attack bonus (on it's own).

[compfreak847]

That's a good idea, splitbark would be nice for mage attack. I would recommend boosting the required level though, it should be at least 60.

 

 

 

I personally don't think that splitbark denotes magic level 60 considering infinity robes require magic level 50 and give a whopping +55 magic attack bonus (on it's own).

 

But that's members. Low level FTP mage is way, WAY overpowered as it is.

[quelmotz]

That's a good idea, splitbark would be nice for mage attack. I would recommend boosting the required level though, it should be at least 60.

 

 

 

I personally don't think that splitbark denotes magic level 60 considering infinity robes require magic level 50 and give a whopping +55 magic attack bonus (on it's own).

 

But that's members. Low level FTP mage is way, WAY overpowered as it is.

 

 

 

Assuming the person has 59 mage, 24 Hp and 40 def, he would be combat lvl 44, which is above "low level" pking (as you said, about lvl 35).

 

 

 

There should probably also be something in between (30mage+30def). As far as I know, there's no members mage robes with this req so it should be a new one.

 

 

 

P.S. Give blue skirts a magic bonus and change it into "wizard bottom robes" or something like that.

[Gmesh]

Range needs a bow up to yew for free. Maybe mith xbow...

 

 

 

Mage f2p AND p2p needs an upgrade and to be honest I think they should raise the maxes of all the spells.

 

 

 

Other than that not really.

[compfreak847]

 

 

 

Assuming the person has 59 mage, 24 Hp and 40 def, he would be combat lvl 44, which is above "low level" pking (as you said, about lvl 35).

 

 

 

There should probably also be something in between (30mage+30def). As far as I know, there's no members mage robes with this req so it should be a new one.

 

 

 

P.S. Give blue skirts a magic bonus and change it into "wizard bottom robes" or something like that.

 

Since when did I say low level PKing was exclusively limited to level 35s? IMO low level is anything below straight 92s (midway in terms of XP), and your trying to argue of semantics.

 

 

 

Range needs a bow up to yew for free. Maybe mith xbow...

 

Why would they do that? Range already drastically overpowers melee (the skill its supposed to lose to) at ALL levels.

 

 

 

 

Mage f2p AND p2p needs an upgrade and to be honest I think they should raise the maxes of all the spells.

 

Err, what? FTP mage (until it maxes out) and PTP mage take down ANY other form of combat pathetically easily. PTP mage is a joke, mage rules supreme in ALL types of combat. The other two combat styles don't stand a ghost of a chance. PTP mage could use a drastic nerf.

[Sir_Kurity]

Range needs a bow up to yew for free. Maybe mith xbow...

 

 

 

I'm inclined to agree, not about the yew bow (Not really required) But we need a decent xbow, for ko's etc.

[Cacmypants]

Why would they do that? Range already drastically overpowers melee (the skill its supposed to lose to) at ALL levels.

 

 

 

Well, not really, Even a 99 ranger cant hit me for balls when I'm wearing full torags with a crystal shield, that's with 90 defense.

 

 

 

But Otherwise I agree that range is bs overpowered early on compared to melee, mainly because of speed and accuracy towards mediocre defense levels.

 

 

 

Err, what? FTP mage (until it maxes out) and PTP mage take down ANY other form of combat pathetically easily. PTP mage is a joke, mage rules supreme in ALL types of combat. The other two combat styles don't stand a ghost of a chance. PTP mage could use a drastic nerf.

 

 

 

It's pretty much impossible for mages to solo against a meleer (in dragonhide) or a ranger whom have decent magic levels. Most of the time mages are just there to hold you in place while you get wailed on by godswords from all sides... In other words, a mild annoyance.

 

 

 

FTP mage is just pathetic, you get WORSE as you level up, considering you can hit 8 being a little over combat level 10 when the equivilant melee/rangers are still pokeing 3s. Then suddenly everyone elses HP sky-rockets and you find yourself unable to withstand a drawn out battle with your opponent constantly eating. Thats when before you were taking people out with only a few spells. Now your spells are so slow and prone to missing (if the opponent is smart) that you've become demoted from predator to easy prey.

 

 

 

It's because the robes are just so vulnerable against anything (except maybe magic).

 

 

 

When you see a mage in pvp do you say?:

 

 

 

1. Oh, no a mage, he might cast deadly spells on me, I better run!

 

2. A mage, He's totally dead

 

 

 

Of course, anyone with experience would pick 2. why? because solo mages are not something to be feared, they're pathetic, their robes are literally equivilant to wearing nothing, and if they try to wear a little armor they find themselves splashing 60% of the time AND STILL get cut through because their armor is so inadequet.

 

 

 

This opens up a whole new argument concerning the ability for meleers to wear dragonhide with NO disadvantage.

[compfreak847]

 

It's pretty much impossible for mages to solo against a meleer (in dragonhide) or a ranger whom have decent magic levels. Most of the time mages are just there to hold you in place while you get wailed on by godswords from all sides... In other words, a mild annoyance.

 

Your talking about members, right? In that case, I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about. I have no problem trouncing a meleer or ranger with 99 magic. See the other thread on this, it isn't even an argument.

[Veritas94]

I agree that Magic needs major improvements in F2P. Magic maxes out at level 59 in terms of damage, and this is completely unacceptable.

 

 

 

F2P Magic could use the following:

 

 

 

Better armor that provides defense from melee attacks. Compfreak demonstrated earlier that he is able to attain huge melee defense bonuses while wearing members magical armor, so logically, mages in F2P should be able to attain similar bonuses (Albeit scaled to the F2P level). How about Splitbark Armor? (Someone suggested this earlier).

 

 

 

The "Snare" or "Entangle" spell. 5 seconds (Bind) is a glaringly ineffective duration for a holding spell. By the time a mage backs up to cast a fireblast from a distance, the warrior is practically right on top of him again. Besides, members don't really utilize "Snare" and "Entangle" too much anyway, since they have the so called "god-like" ancient magicks which hit consistent 50+ combos (according to Compfreak), freeze, drain, and lower stats all at the same time. Why bother with silly "Snares" and "Entangles?" The F2P mage brethren, however, could use these spells desperately.

 

 

 

Harder hitting spells or faster casting. Listen, I know some of you might be against this, but consider the following: In members, mages have a means of performing ancient magick combos to finish their opponents off using spell delay mechanics. In F2P, mages DO NOT have a means of finishing their opponent, and neither do rangers. BUT WAIT! Rangers fire arrows very quickly, and can string ranged/rune 2 hander combos efficiently because of their speed. Mages cannot do this because they cast slowly and can't efficiently combine their attacks with a rune 2 hander. Hence, we need to give mages more powerful spells which they can use to K0 people. Fire waves would be a nice start, but they still wouldn't solve the problems of lack of K0 ability. I'll let others ponder a solution to this problem.

[sees_all1]

 

It's pretty much impossible for mages to solo against a meleer (in dragonhide) or a ranger whom have decent magic levels. Most of the time mages are just there to hold you in place while you get wailed on by godswords from all sides... In other words, a mild annoyance.

 

Your talking about members, right? In that case, I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about. I have no problem trouncing a meleer or ranger with 99 magic. See the other thread on this, it isn't even an argument.

 

 

 

Can we keep this discussion on F2P?

 

 

 

I believe that we all agree that the (F2P) combat triangle is off balance.

 

Low levels: Mage > Melee/Range. I haven't pked much with low level Range, but I believe between combat 35-50, Melee > Range, as it should be in all cases.

 

 

 

At combats 40-50, Melee starts to catch up with Mage, because Mage has already maxed out, and meleers with 40 range, 40 attack, and maxed strength (40 to 66) can start to wear d'hide for a some magic defense, while starting to hit about 10-14 with a rune scimitar. They can also have 71 magic without raising their combat, which provides excellent magic defense.

 

 

 

[hide=Higher level combats]At combats 80-100, mage is long gone, and here's where the range tanks come into play. Someone with 80 combat (87 range, 81 hits, 50 defense, 47 prayer) can hit 16's with rapid.

 

Someone with 100 combat (99 range, 96 hits, 90 defense, 51 prayer) can hit 18's with rapid.

 

 

 

Granted, there could be a 100 combat melee with 99 strength, 80 attack, 96 hits, 50 defense, and 51 prayer.

 

Here's the thing take away defense and attack, and the ranger in the long run will average 9's.

 

The melee with average 12-13's.

 

The kicker? Without worrying about attack and defense, the ranger shoots 3 times every time the melee hits 2 times. Meaning that in the same time span, the ranger will average 27, and the melee will average 25.

 

 

 

Further more, in that situation, I've completely neglected defense, and attack. The ranger has a superior defense and a superior attack. Even if the way they determine hits or not was the same for range and melee, the ranger would hit 99 attack versus the melee's 50 defense, and the melee would hit his 80 attack on the ranger's 90 defense.

 

 

 

The way Jagex generates a number for melee is 1 number to determine if there's a hit or not, and 1 number to determine how high. Which means that they're just as likely to splash on 0 as they are 25 and that the average is much lower than 12 or 13.

 

The way a melee hits was confirmed with the "What's wrong Jad, Chicken?" article.

 

(here be speculation) I'd be willing to bet that Jagex only generates 1 number for range, and that's used to determine the hit, and whether it will hit or not. So defense against a high ranger would act as a "filter" - the 0-8's would generally be blocked, but the 9 and above would generally hit. Which would mean that a ranger's average hit would be lowered slightly, but not as much as the melee's.[/hide]

 

[hide=What should be done about this?]-Instead of 2 skills raising total combat for melee, there should only be one, OR the levels gained shouldn't raise the levels faster (mage contributions = range = (attack + strength)).

 

-Random numbers generated for each type of hit should be the same, either 1 number for range, melee, and mage, or 2 numbers.

 

-Armour on other skill's bonuses should be universal. Wearing D'hide should help melee and mage, be neutral, or hurt both. Same with platebodies, chains, and robes. That way hybriding in one class doesn't give a bigger advantage than hybriding in another.

 

-Mage's max hits should be redetermined with magic level, OR there needs to be new F2P spells that can hit the equivalent Melee/Range damage/second, or both.

 

-Defense should be universal, there is no "magic" defense included in a magic level, but there can be "magic" defense bonuses like there is "range" and "stab/slash/crush" defense bonuses.[/hide]

 

 

 

If you got to here, and read it all, thanks. Please don't debate what I've said here unless you've read it in it's entirety, and understand what I've said. Feel free to ask for clarification. :D glad to have cleared that up.

[Veritas94]

I like your sig and ideas, sees_all1 :thumbsup:

[Sir_Kurity]

-Armour on other skill's bonuses should be universal. Wearing D'hide should help melee and mage, be neutral, or hurt both. Same with platebodies, chains, and robes. That way hybriding in one class doesn't give a bigger advantage than hybriding in another.

 

 

 

I agree with that, I hate how mage can't hybrid armor.

[compfreak847]

Sees all, you are misinformed. Random numbers are generated the same way for range as melee as magic; I've done hit spread charts for all 3, and unless you can come up with dramatic proof that I'm wrong, I'm sticking with them.

 

 

 

Really, the only point remaining from your rant is that high level mage could use a small boost. Make mage max hits scale slightly with levels, and the problem is solved. Next rant, please?

 

 

 

 

I agree with that, I hate how mage can't hybrid armor.

 

If members mage was ever nerfed that badly, I'd go to range as my favorite skill. The ability to hybrid with any weapon is literally the #1 reason mage is so powerful - the armor gives massive bonuses that let you use ANY weapon. I can successfully mage while wielding dragon claws - my opponent can never pray mage, or he'll get smashed with high specs, and he's at my mercy while I pray whatever I want to and farcast away.

[Sir_Kurity]

I think you misunderstood me.

 

 

 

I never said remove the ability to hybrid with every weapon, but to give the ability to hybrid with armor, more effectively.

 

 

 

Anyway, wasent very well thought out, because now that i think about it, it would overpower mage.

[Veritas94]

Sees all, you are misinformed. Random numbers are generated the same way for range as melee as magic; I've done hit spread charts for all 3, and unless you can come up with dramatic proof that I'm wrong, I'm sticking with them.

 

 

 

Really, the only point remaining from your rant is that high level mage could use a small boost. Make mage max hits scale slightly with levels, and the problem is solved. Next rant, please?

 

 

 

 

I agree with that, I hate how mage can't hybrid armor.

 

If members mage was ever nerfed that badly, I'd go to range as my favorite skill. The ability to hybrid with any weapon is literally the #1 reason mage is so powerful - the armor gives massive bonuses that let you use ANY weapon. I can successfully mage while wielding dragon claws - my opponent can never pray mage, or he'll get smashed with high specs, and he's at my mercy while I pray whatever I want to and farcast away.

 

 

 

 

 

I believe the thread concerns F2P magic. :).

 

 

 

So far, you've admitted that magic should recieve:

 

-Boosts to damage

 

-Splitbark armor with higher requirements

 

 

 

We're making progress.

[Sir_Kurity]

I think they should receive godspells.

 

 

 

Without charge of course, that would be way overpowered.

[Cacmypants]

I think they should receive godspells.

 

 

 

Without charge of course, that would be way overpowered.

 

 

 

Theres no way for a non-member to access the arena, and allowing them access... I dont know, it just doesnt seem right. I can't imagine non members being able to fight the chaos elelmental and hell-hounds, of course Jagex could take out these monsters in non-member worlds, but it just seems like a hassle.

 

 

 

 

Your talking about members, right? In that case, I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about. I have no problem trouncing a meleer or ranger with 99 magic. See the other thread on this, it isn't even an argument.

 

 

 

Yeah of course, I have NO IDEA what I'm talking about.

 

 

 

Solo mages suck period, Im not talking about a ranged hybrid, or miasmic spells, they just suck, why?:

 

 

 

- Can be easily countered by wearing cheap [wagon] dragon hide with a adequet (70+) magic level accompanied by protect against magic prayer.

 

- Is EXTREMELY prone to getting pjed with standard binding tactics

 

- Can't take a hit (even with protect from melee on)

 

 

 

And as for "I have no problem trouncing a meleer or ranger with 99 magic" - what do you want us to do, tell you how "awesome" you are? I think your failing to assume the "meleers" your refering to may not have excellent defense or magic levels, thus making them pushovers with your maxed range and mage. If their defense was over 90 and they were wearing a full set of PROPER defensive gear, I guarentee they would be no easy target with range alone - thus you would interchange between magic to win, correct? Of course I am.

 

 

 

Keep in mind we're going off general rule, not how great an example you are, not everyone has your stats.

[Sir_Kurity]

- Can be easily countered by wearing cheap [wagon] dragon hide with a adequet (70+) magic level accompanied by protect against magic prayer.

 

- Is EXTREMELY prone to getting pjed with standard binding tactics

 

- Can't take a hit (even with protect from melee on)

 

 

 

1) Technically your hybriding with dragonhide, so why can't i hybrid with range/melee.

 

2) Don't fight in crowded areas, and also, this has little to do with magics actual STRENGTH, as opposed to annoyances.

 

3) Cant take a hit? I don't get it, ive found with 45 defence and protect from melee i can take many hits, and even if i couldn't i can just burst, and run away.

 

 

 

Also assuming compfreak pks in PVP worlds, everyone he fights HAS to have a high defense level other wise they wouldn't be able to attack him.

[sees_all1]

Sees all, you are misinformed. Random numbers are generated the same way for range as melee as magic; I've done hit spread charts for all 3, and unless you can come up with dramatic proof that I'm wrong, I'm sticking with them.

 

You don't know that, unless you know the inner workings of the game. I can also tell you they may be generated the same way, but they might not be used the same way.

 

 

 

Jagex told us that for melee, a number is generated for the hit (between 0 and max), and a number is generated for the attack (compared with the defense, if the number is higher than the defense, you don't splash).

 

 

 

However, they did not tell us how hits are determined for range or magic. Is there one number generated for accuracy, and another for the hit? That wouldn't make much sense, because there is only one skill involved with range/magic. Also, where does your defense for magic come from? Does it come in the form of your magic level, or defense level?

 

 

 

I also doubt you've tested every F2P setup, and even if you had, you may have misinterpreted your own data. I know you've had "1000's of hours of PVP", but how much of that was F2P, testing Fire Blast or Rune Scimitars?

 

 

 

Oh, and that last part with speculation didn't matter too much, because I already showed without it that Range>Melee from 80-100 combat.

[compfreak847]

 

However, they did not tell us how hits are determined for range or magic. Is there one number generated for accuracy, and another for the hit? That wouldn't make much sense, because there is only one skill involved with range/magic. Also, where does your defense for magic come from? Does it come in the form of your magic level, or defense level?

 

 

 

What the hell are you talking about? The hits for ALL weapons, spells, ammunition, and monsters show the same pattern - you have a certain chance of hitting, and once you hit, a hit is calculated based on your max and 0. That's how it has ALWAYS been, and now your trying to pull a random guess out of your behind and twist it into a reason why mage is inferior? Get real, show some evidence or drop it. Accuracy is a percentage, average hit is close to the average between the max and 0 for EVERY combat style. And yes, I have tested fire blast and various FTP weapons (R2H, Rune Scimmy) - they were all exactly identical, just like EVERY type of weapon in the game, and I saw no reason to test the rest of them.

[sees_all1]

 

What the hell are you talking about? The hits for ALL weapons, spells, ammunition, and monsters show the same pattern - you have a certain chance of hitting, and once you hit, a hit is calculated based on your max and 0. That's how it has ALWAYS been, and now your trying to pull a random guess out of your behind and twist it into a reason why mage is inferior? Get real, show some evidence or drop it. Accuracy is a percentage, average hit is close to the average between the max and 0 for EVERY combat style. And yes, I have tested fire blast and various FTP weapons (R2H, Rune Scimmy) - they were all exactly identical, just like EVERY type of weapon in the game, and I saw no reason to test the rest of them.

 

 

 

Well, in my own defense, I did explicitly state that it was pure speculation.

 

I also gave other reasons why the combat triangle isn't balanced, including damage per unit time.

 

 

 

When I have free time, I will set up some controlled tests, and post my results, something I haven't seen you do here.

 

Figure that 1k-10k hits with various attack, defense, range, and magic combinations should shed some light on this idea. It should give a small enough standard error for a t-test or a chi-squared test.