PMods - Purpose or Status?

Troacctid · October 25, 2009

Would you quit this line-by-line [cabbage], guys? You're giving me a headache trying to read this stuff. Seriously.

Anyway:

Er Matt asks:

Hey Mod Paul and Steve,

When recruiting Moderators do you still consider players using your previous guidelines; quality reports, helpful and a secure account. I know these points are also very important in your current recruiting guidelines, but I would just like to know if you still recruit using the "Traditional" way.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

==============================================

We still look at those things - after all we don't want to make persistent rule breakers Mods and we certainly don't want people with weak account security to have additional 'powers' - as it is highly likely that their account could be used to cause damage in the community by a rogue/shared user.

When we look at reports a player has made - we focus entirely on the quality of them - is the intent good? Has a rule been broken? Would this incident have been better dealt with by just adding the problem player to the ignore list - that sort of thing.

We are a bit more lenient about things now though - so in the past we might have instantly dismissed the idea of making someone a Mod because on one of their accounts they broke some minor rule. Today we would look at that situation and say - well that isn't ideal but it was quite a while ago - apart from that incident - what are they like?

Once we are through those 'hurdles' we can look at community involvement - and this is where we make a lot of 'yes' and 'no' decisions.

Cheers,

Steve

This is from this RSOF post.

Hey, if you need any more clarification, why don't you ask in the next Q&A? The one specifically dedicated to Moderator Recruitment is happening at 8pm forum time (4pm Eastern) on November 5. I assume you trust Jagex to give a direct, honest answer to a direct question?

October 25, 2009

Er Matt asks:

Hey Mod Paul and Steve,

When recruiting Moderators do you still consider players using your previous guidelines; quality reports, helpful and a secure account. I know these points are also very important in your current recruiting guidelines, but I would just like to know if you still recruit using the "Traditional" way.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

==============================================

We still look at those things - after all we don't want to make persistent rule breakers Mods and we certainly don't want people with weak account security to have additional 'powers' - as it is highly likely that their account could be used to cause damage in the community by a rogue/shared user.
Couldn't agree more.

When we look at reports a player has made - we focus entirely on the quality of them - is the intent good? Has a rule been broken? Would this incident have been better dealt with by just adding the problem player to the ignore list - that sort of thing.
Absolutley. Sounds like common sense to me. BTW this is written in present tense format.

We are a bit more lenient about things now though - so in the past we might have instantly dismissed the idea of making someone a Mod because on one of their accounts they broke some minor rule. Today we would look at that situation and say - well that isn't ideal but it was quite a while ago - apart from that incident - what are they like?
Very interesting. Notice the part in bold. Looking at the player. We also now know that reporting is not the deciding factor, more about the player and how they are. This has been my point - the player focus ie. community focus. Those who are good, respected and who get out there in the community. No self service, just games players. Spot on!

Once we are through those 'hurdles' we can look at community involvement - and this is where we make a lot of 'yes' and 'no' decisions.

Enough said there.

Cheers,

Steve
This is from this RSOF post.

Hey, if you need any more clarification, why don't you ask in the next Q&A? The one specifically dedicated to Moderator Recruitment is happening at 8pm forum time (4pm Eastern) on November 5. I assume you trust Jagex to give a direct, honest answer to a direct question?
Im assuming you're talking to local_guy, as they've been very direct with things so far. Nice one troacctid, and here's me thinking you were batting for the other side :thumbup:

Erewhon2 · October 25, 2009

Ok if I get this right.....your personal 'gratification' for being a Pmod is being part of the said community....uh huh, so its interesting that you said this earlier on in the thread.
...
This is known as being 'found out', you are blatantly changing what you say to suit the argument you are making at the time.

And yet that quote is from three months ago. During which time it is very possible for me to get back into the community at least a little bit. All it takes is logging in and seeing what's going on.
Which still raises the question of why you wanted to be a Pmod originally (or 3 months ago). Interesting that you have now decided to have something to do with the Pmod community and strangely thats now your reason for wanting the role. :huh:

Now, if most players hate it, what good would the status be? If players hate me for being a mod, then why would I be doing it for the status?
That is not a reasonable response....come on! Use your common sense! Some hate it through jealousy, some fawn over Pmods. And for some people, its having the status of perceived power over others (as has been said by some Pmods on this thread!) and has nothing to do with being hated or not.

I do not represent the pmod community, but I am defending them as a part of them.
By defending them and speaking for Pmods and their role; you are representing them.

The new role for Pmods is seen by many as a positive way forward, empowering and improving the relationships and roles, yet for you.....
Because at that time they had hardly done anything relating to their new role. Remember, that quote was from nearly three months ago, and a lot can change in three months.
But the statements had come out from Jagex then, quoted by Troacctid and Jrhairychest, plus the new application system, so it was clear as to what was expected. And it was a lot different.

And you prefer that old system! Even though Jagex have clearly stated the need to change the way the Pmod system and role functions :shame:
Once again, as of three months ago. Before I had seen anything new for pmods to do. Three months ago is not now.
See above

And finally....

A simple "ty" is not enough for you as it is Jrhairychest or myself.....you want the crown as recognition
Now, why would I want a crown as recognition if a majority of people hates it? That simply doesn't make sense.
I've already answered this, but you haven't answered why a simple "ty" is not enough, it was you who said; if the crown was recognition then so be it.

Nice to see the new role being so flexible. Useful post from Troacctid

October 25, 2009

Local_guy its been very interesting on here to say the least. I think now is a good time to point towards a few things regarding the credibility of what youre saying:

Your evidence

So far your evidence is a few Chat channels and the town crier regarding pmods. I tried the Ad Busters chat and, well, I grew bored of it because no-one spoke a word so after an hour I logged. Whats its purpose? I get the impression by the name is a channel for rooting out web advertisements? If so, how is this 'getting involved in the community'? I dont see anyone getting involved with anything, nor how does a chat channel get people involved exactly? Doing what?

I notice you make many remarks that the crier has not been updated. I'm glad you said that because this might interest you in the red elipse:

Now this is the third time reporting has been mentioned about the old selection process. You've always denied that you were selected this way, instead you were 'monitored'. 3 Pieces of evidence prove that pmods in the old system were selected by reports they made. You claim to have made a handful of reports but I think we can pretty much discount this now. This evidence is indisputable, unless of course, you want to make any more ridiculous claims?

You also make many references to Jagex not telling us the truth, yet you place your trust on TruthScape, which even states Things have changed a great deal in the last year or so, in some ways for the better, and some for the worse. On the plus side, Jagex has a new CEO, and has shown a new spirit of cooperation that I find most welcome; the company has also made structural changes to the game that have made many of the issue sections of TruthScape obsolete. Do you think you'll find the answers you seek there? Are you after someone to tell you its all a conspiracy theory or something?

Now why would anyone be a pmod and state that Jagex arent telling the truth? If it is such an issue for you why bother playing at all? Its a game and you can vote with your wallet and cancel your subscription if you feel this way.

You have also questioned JMod Catalinas integrity as to whether she was telling us the truth. I have continually asked you whether what she said was true:

Really? So, for the record, Mod Catalina does not know what she is talking about? As far as interpretation of argument goes as I've said before do you want truth or want to be loved?
Remember the thing about Mod Mat K claiming that the player did not lose 300m from a bug at MA?

Even in your last post you skipped around this point, not answering the question directly. What am I supposed to conclude? As a pmod dont you think you are embarrassing yourself and your community by making statements then trying not to answer them because you know youve dug a hole for yourself?

Your Status

In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:

If you're not enough without it then you should really re-consider why you do it. You don't need a crown to play RS, help people, report people or even break up arguments unless you're a weak person who has to stand behind a crown to do it. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
True, but the perks that come with it are worth taking it for.

A petty damning statement from yourself. From this I can only assume that youre not able to play RS at all without the crown. You have stated that you will not give up the crown even though you have been given many opportunities to do so. I would have applauded you for it and given you full credit on your principles.

You then stated this in a response to Erewhon2

A simple "ty" is not enough for you as it is Jrhairychest or myself.....you want the crown as recognition
Now, why would I want a crown as recognition if a majority of people hates it? That simply doesn't make sense.

Which pretty much sums things up considering you cant be without it.

You also claim that youve been pmodding under the old system, and are now claiming that you are pmodding in the community, after the Jagex announcement was stated. You said you didnt bother with the old community, yet youve completely changed your focus.

Erewhon 2 was quite right to point this out. In August you wrote:

a_local_guy, on 25 August 2009 - 11:43 PM, said:
I'm as distant from the rest of the mod community as I can be while still being a part of it. That doesn't mean I can't observe a contradiction outside of said community.

It seems as we go along youre changing your story to fit your argument as you go along. Youre tying yourself in knots with these things to try to make your arguments fit the points as they are put forward. It just looks bad on your part.

Your Community

You state you are not representing the pmod community, only yourself. Yet in your last post you said:

By arguing that I'm not in it for the status, I'm proving that I am?
I do not represent the pmod community, but I am defending them as a part of them. And I'm not sure how defending or their purpose them shows how I'm in it for the status.

This contradicts itself. And youve proved more than once youd never give up your status. Up until you made the first such statement I believed you were representing your pmod community and not yourself. You identified yourself as a pmod and posters view you as a pmod. Simple. By posting things against Jagex and their jmods as well as changing your story and denying things that have been evidenced just makes the pmod community look worse not better. I (Cant believe Im saying this!) cant help feeling youve short changed them in your posts.

The more I read of your posts, the more I am glad that Jagex will change things for the better in the pmod community. You have justified their response to the whole issue of changing how they select and who they select.

Alg · October 26, 2009

Which still raises the question of why you wanted to be a Pmod originally (or 3 months ago). Interesting that you have now decided to have something to do with the Pmod community and strangely thats now your reason for wanting the role. :huh:
3 months is a short period of time considering that I've been a pmod for about three years. And for most of that time I was involved with the community.
That is not a reasonable response....come on! Use your common sense! Some hate it through jealousy, some fawn over Pmods. And for some people, its having the status of perceived power over others (as has been said by some Pmods on this thread!) and has nothing to do with being hated or not.
Let's think for a minute, here. If a status symbol is something that people fawn over, where would hate fit in?

By defending them and speaking for Pmods and their role; you are representing them.
And yet, somehow judging several thousand people based on what I alone say...

But the statements had come out from Jagex then, quoted by Troacctid and Jrhairychest, plus the new application system, so it was clear as to what was expected. And it was a lot different.
I have a feeling that it's time for me to break down their article...

And finally....

I've already answered this, but you haven't answered why a simple "ty" is not enough, it was you who said; if the crown was recognition then so be it.
If. If. If.
I never treated the crown as recognition. I treat it as if I have more to do now. If it was meant to be recognition, then that's alright, but I just jumped into what the role was supposed to be when I was modded.

Your evidence
So far your evidence is a few Chat channels and the town crier regarding pmods. I tried the Ad Busters chat and, well, I grew bored of it because no-one spoke a word so after an hour I logged. Whats its purpose? I get the impression by the name is a channel for rooting out web advertisements? If so, how is this 'getting involved in the community'? I dont see anyone getting involved with anything, nor how does a chat channel get people involved exactly? Doing what?
That channel is maybe 2 years old, and was where players and pmods could help each other get rid of RWT advertisers. Both worked together to clean up the community.
The other clan chat and its forum thread, which you seem to have missed, is a mod-run game help chat. Again, probably existed before these changes

I notice you make many remarks that the crier has not been updated. I'm glad you said that because this might interest you in the red elipse:
Now this is the third time reporting has been mentioned about the old selection process. You've always denied that you were selected this way, instead you were 'monitored'. 3 Pieces of evidence prove that pmods in the old system were selected by reports they made. You claim to have made a handful of reports but I think we can pretty much discount this now. This evidence is indisputable, unless of course, you want to make any more ridiculous claims?
Yet you fail to mention the town crier screenshot. And somehow evidence that you once disregarded is now indesputable. The town crier screenshot mentions quality, not quantiy as well, so we can safely say you are wrong in assuming that it was entirely based on quantity.

You also make many references to Jagex not telling us the truth, yet you place your trust on TruthScape, which even states Things have changed a great deal in the last year or so, in some ways for the better, and some for the worse. On the plus side, Jagex has a new CEO, and has shown a new spirit of cooperation that I find most welcome; the company has also made structural changes to the game that have made many of the issue sections of TruthScape obsolete. Do you think you'll find the answers you seek there? Are you after someone to tell you its all a conspiracy theory or something?
The forums remained open after the site was closed, and the issues discussed there are still relevant. Plus, that's what Qeltar says about his site, not what its community says about the issue.

Now why would anyone be a pmod and state that Jagex arent telling the truth? If it is such an issue for you why bother playing at all? Its a game and you can vote with your wallet and cancel your subscription if you feel this way.
Because in the end, does it matter? Jagex was not entirely honest about their mod selection process, which they changed anyway. As I said before it only matters as far as this debate goes.

You have also questioned JMod Catalinas integrity as to whether she was telling us the truth. I have continually asked you whether what she said was true:
<quote>
Even in your last post you skipped around this point, not answering the question directly. What am I supposed to conclude? As a pmod dont you think you are embarrassing yourself and your community by making statements then trying not to answer them because you know youve dug a hole for yourself?
In that case time to dig myself out.
I disagree with your interpretation of it, her post merely repeats the same thing as the article. Which is that they are going to try a new system for moderator selection, because the old one had its limits. .

Your Status
In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:
<again, quote>
A petty damning statement from yourself. From this I can only assume that youre not able to play RS at all without the crown. You have stated that you will not give up the crown even though you have been given many opportunities to do so. I would have applauded you for it and given you full credit on your principles.
You always seem to go towards the extremes. I am able to play the game well without the crown, but that doesn't mean that I don't like the tools and information that come with it.

You then stated this in a response to Erewhon2

Which pretty much sums things up considering you cant be without it.
Or that as a status symbol it is pretty weak. If it was truly the status you believe it is, why do people hate it? The perceived role that accompanies it.

You also claim that youve been pmodding under the old system, and are now claiming that you are pmodding in the community, after the Jagex announcement was stated. You said you didnt bother with the old community, yet youve completely changed your focus.
I was pmodding under the old system in the early days of the new system, because as far as I had heard then the new system was not entirely in effect yet. If I'm pmodding in the new system it's because I now know what that system is. I at that time didn't bother with the community because I didn't have the time to do so. And I returned to it later when I realized that It didn't take much effort to just go from the suggestion threads I was maintaining to it.
Erewhon 2 was quite right to point this out. In August you wrote:

It seems as we go along youre changing your story to fit your argument as you go along. Youre tying yourself in knots with these things to try to make your arguments fit the points as they are put forward. It just looks bad on your part.
Times do change though. Especially since my opinions change when I learn things.

Your Community
You state you are not representing the pmod community, only yourself. Yet in your last post you said:

This contradicts itself. And youve proved more than once youd never give up your status. Up until you made the first such statement I believed you were representing your pmod community and not yourself. You identified yourself as a pmod and posters view you as a pmod. Simple. By posting things against Jagex and their jmods as well as changing your story and denying things that have been evidenced just makes the pmod community look worse not better. I (Cant believe Im saying this!) cant help feeling youve short changed them in your posts.
That's your belief though. I for one always assumed I'd be representing A Local Guy, who is a pmod. Considering I do things differently than you think the rest of the community does that should be further proof that I'm here as an individual. With that in mind though, I do feel like defending the rest of them while I'm here.

The more I read of your posts, the more I am glad that Jagex will change things for the better in the pmod community. You have justified their response to the whole issue of changing how they select and who they select.
Once again, one does not equal all.

Hope I didn't miss anything... And I figured out multi quote! :razz:

October 26, 2009

Your evidence
So far your evidence is a few Chat channels and the town crier regarding pmods. I tried the Ad Busters chat and, well, I grew bored of it because no-one spoke a word so after an hour I logged. What’s its purpose? I get the impression by the name is a channel for rooting out web advertisements? If so, how is this 'getting involved in the community'? I don’t see anyone getting involved with anything, nor how does a chat channel get people involved exactly? Doing what?
That channel is maybe 2 years old, and was where players and pmods could help each other get rid of RWT advertisers. Both worked together to clean up the community.
The other clan chat and its forum thread, which you seem to have missed, is a mod-run game help chat. Again, probably existed before these changes
This channel is NOT a community thing, its simply a reporting area. Wow that's really getting the community together and doing fun things isn't it? I haven't missed the other 2, I've taken a look and theres nothing there. This is not evidence. You have proven nothing. Where are all the big get-togethers, joining people together to do fun stuff, parties, group stuff such as CW etc.? Anyone can hide behind clan chats. Thats not getting involved, its a lazy cop out.

I notice you make many remarks that the crier has not been updated. I'm glad you said that because this might interest you in the red elipse:
Now this is the third time reporting has been mentioned about the old selection process. You've always denied that you were selected this way, instead you were 'monitored'. 3 Pieces of evidence prove that pmods in the old system were selected by reports they made. You claim to have made a handful of reports but I think we can pretty much discount this now. This evidence is indisputable, unless of course, you want to make any more ridiculous claims?
Yet you fail to mention the town crier screenshot. And somehow evidence that you once disregarded is now indesputable. The town crier screenshot mentions quality, not quantiy as well, so we can safely say you are wrong in assuming that it was entirely based on quantity.
You still have to have a good quantity to be measured on your quality, so nope. Its not me you'll have to convince, its yourself. 3 pieces of 'official' evidence state otherwise so no idea why you're still trying to score the point on the town crier. Do you still wish to make these ridiculous claims or are you going to come into the real world?

You also make many references to Jagex not telling us the truth, yet you place your trust on TruthScape, which even states ‘Things have changed a great deal in the last year or so, in some ways for the better, and some for the worse. On the plus side, Jagex has a new CEO, and has shown a new spirit of cooperation that I find most welcome; the company has also made structural changes to the game that have made many of the issue sections of TruthScape obsolete’. Do you think you'll find the answers you seek there? Are you after someone to tell you its all a conspiracy theory or something?
The forums remained open after the site was closed, and the issues discussed there are still relevant. Plus, that's what Qeltar says about his site, not what its community says about the issue.
So I'm right, its more for those who claim all is bad with RS, but still pay the fee's each month instead of playing another game. Hmmmmm thats logical. You posted on there to try to get a more favourable answer instead of posting on tipit.

Now why would anyone be a pmod and state that Jagex aren’t telling the truth? If it is such an issue for you why bother playing at all? Its a game and you can vote with your wallet and cancel your subscription if you feel this way.
Because in the end, does it matter? Jagex was not entirely honest about their mod selection process, which they changed anyway. As I said before it only matters as far as this debate goes.
Right......so now you admit that in the end, Jagex needed to be a little economical to save themselves. If it was all about the debate, why are you so easily drawn into sites such as truthscape? You complain so much about Jagex its unreal. From your pov, I think its more than just for the debate as you seem to have a lot of issues. So I ask again, if its such a problem, why bother playing? Vote with your wallet.

You have also questioned JMod Catalina’s integrity as to whether she was telling us the truth. I have continually asked you whether what she said was true:
Really? So, for the record, Mod Catalina does not know what she is talking about? As far as interpretation of argument goes as I've said before do you want truth or want to be loved?
Remember the thing about Mod Mat K claiming that the player did not lose 300m from a bug at MA?

Even in your last post you skipped around this point, not answering the question directly. What am I supposed to conclude? As a pmod don’t you think you are embarrassing yourself and your community by making statements then trying not to answer them because you know you’ve dug a hole for yourself?
In that case time to dig myself out.
I disagree with your interpretation of it, her post merely repeats the same thing as the article. Which is that they are going to try a new system for moderator selection, because the old one had its limits. .
If Mod Catalina is repeating the same thing as the article, and Jagex are wrong twice, and is Mod Catalina lying about the issue then? Come on, don't try to evade this.

Your Status
In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:
If you're not enough without it then you should really re-consider why you do it. You don't need a crown to play RS, help people, report people or even break up arguments unless you're a weak person who has to stand behind a crown to do it. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
True, but the perks that come with it are worth taking it for.

A petty damning statement from yourself. From this I can only assume that you’re not able to play RS at all without the crown. You have stated that you will not give up the crown even though you have been given many opportunities to do so. I would have applauded you for it and given you full credit on your principles.
You always seem to go towards the extremes. I am able to play the game well without the crown, but that doesn't mean that I don't like the tools and information that come with it.
No, thats not what you have said above. You agreed with my point as you wanted the 'perks' that go with it. This isn't extreme, this is another case of using your own posts against you. You wrote the answer, not me. Proves the point of why you need the crown. Status.

You then stated this in a response to Erewhon2
A simple "ty" is not enough for you as it is Jrhairychest or myself.....you want the crown as recognition
Now, why would I want a crown as recognition if a majority of people hates it? That simply doesn't make sense.
Which pretty much sums things up considering you can’t be without it.
Or that as a status symbol it is pretty weak. If it was truly the status you believe it is, why do people hate it? The perceived role that accompanies it.
This together with your crown statement above shows that you're not enough without it. A simple 'ty' isn't good enough for you. You need the crown.

You also claim that you’ve been pmodding under the old system, and are now claiming that you are pmodding in the community, after the Jagex announcement was stated. You said you didn’t bother with the old community, yet you’ve completely changed your focus.

Erewhon 2 was quite right to point this out. In August you wrote:
a_local_guy, on 25 August 2009 - 11:43 PM, said:
I'm as distant from the rest of the mod community as I can be while still being a part of it. That doesn't mean I can't observe a contradiction outside of said community.

I was pmodding under the old system in the early days of the new system, because as far as I had heard then the new system was not entirely in effect yet. If I'm pmodding in the new system it's because I now know what that system is. I at that time didn't bother with the community because I didn't have the time to do so. And I returned to it later when I realized that It didn't take much effort to just go from the suggestion threads I was maintaining to it.
You state that you distance yourself from the community, and now you say 'hey its great'. Completely contradictory.

It seems as we go along you’re changing your story to fit your argument as you go along. You’re tying yourself in knots with these things to try to make your arguments fit the points as they are put forward. It just looks bad on your part.
Times do change though. Especially since my opinions change when I learn things.
If this were true then you still wouldn't be trying to defend an old system, and even worse, agree with my statemetns then disagree regarding your need of the crown. See your own posts. You haven't learned anything. If you did you'd realise just how many contradictions you make throughout your posts. Exactly why I like having you here. The more knots you tie, the more your points fall apart. :^_^:

Your Community
You state you are not representing the pmod community, only yourself. Yet in your last post you said:
By arguing that I'm not in it for the status, I'm proving that I am?
I do not represent the pmod community, but I am defending them as a part of them. And I'm not sure how defending or their purpose them shows how I'm in it for the status.
This contradicts itself. And you’ve proved more than once you’d never give up your status. Up until you made the first such statement I believed you were representing your pmod community and not yourself. You identified yourself as a pmod and posters view you as a pmod. Simple. By posting things against Jagex and their jmods as well as changing your story and denying things that have been evidenced just makes the pmod community look worse not better. I (Can’t believe I’m saying this!) can’t help feeling you’ve short changed them in your posts.
That's your belief though. I for one always assumed I'd be representing A Local Guy, who is a pmod. Considering I do things differently than you think the rest of the community does that should be further proof that I'm here as an individual. With that in mind though, I do feel like defending the rest of them while I'm here.
Lmfao. Please feel free to continue posting along this line.

The more I read of your posts, the more I am glad that Jagex will change things for the better in the pmod community. You have justified their response to the whole issue of changing how they select and who they select.
Once again, one does not equal all.
Ditto this.

Hope I didn't miss anything... And I figured out multi quote! :razz:

You didn't miss a thing. You prove my case. Please feel free to change your mind, state things are lies and skirt around points as usual though. Forgot to post this in the last post, but in future don't erase my questions or quotes. I noticed a few posts back 3 went missing in your replies (No suprise!). The Mod Catalina question, the part where you admitted to wanting the perks and the part where yet again I gave the option of demodding. If you're going to play games like that then it just removes any credibility you have left.

Erewhon2 · October 26, 2009

a_local_guy
Posted Today, 01:14 AM
erewhon2, on 25 October 2009 - 02:06 PM, said:
Which still raises the question of why you wanted to be a Pmod originally (or 3 months ago). Interesting that you have now decided to have something to do with the Pmod community and strangely thats now your reason for wanting the role. :huh:
3 months is a short period of time considering that I've been a pmod for about three years. And for most of that time I was involved with the community.

That is not what you said previously! See Jrhairychest's post and my one, you said

I'm as distant from the rest of the mod community as I can be

When I challenged you on that you said:

And yet that quote is from three months ago. During which time it is very possible for me to get back into the community at least a little bit

Therefore according to you, prior to that quote, you were not involved in the community, that has only occured recently!

I see you again changing what you say to fit the argument you are making at the time. I think it is about time you sat down and took a serious look at yourself and all you believe you represent, because its a false image. You need to step outside of your opinions and look at the arguments you are making objectively. You may believe what you say at the time, but you appear to struggle with self reflection and show no evidence of self awareness. You say you are learning, what are you learning? Rules? How to do this or that?

Are you learning anything about self honesty, reflection, moral fibre, acceptance of who and what you are......do you even like yourself? Helping others begins at home (and thats a metaphor by the way), learning to help others without expectations and global recognition is part of self development. Not everyone can achieve it, but then you need to be honest and accept that about yourself. The hardest person to be really honest with, is yourself....I'm not sure you can do it.

Alg · October 27, 2009

Since apparently I can't make the post any smaller...

[hide]

Your evidence
So far your evidence is a few Chat channels and the town crier regarding pmods. I tried the Ad Busters chat and, well, I grew bored of it because no-one spoke a word so after an hour I logged. What’s its purpose? I get the impression by the name is a channel for rooting out web advertisements? If so, how is this 'getting involved in the community'? I don’t see anyone getting involved with anything, nor how does a chat channel get people involved exactly? Doing what?
That channel is maybe 2 years old, and was where players and pmods could help each other get rid of RWT advertisers. Both worked together to clean up the community.
The other clan chat and its forum thread, which you seem to have missed, is a mod-run game help chat. Again, probably existed before these changes
This channel is NOT a community thing, its simply a reporting area. Wow that's really getting the community together and doing fun things isn't it? I haven't missed the other 2, I've taken a look and theres nothing there. This is not evidence. You have proven nothing. Where are all the big get-togethers, joining people together to do fun stuff, parties, group stuff such as CW etc.? Anyone can hide behind clan chats. Thats not getting involved, its a lazy cop out.
Perhaps you could look for yourself then? I'm sure there are a great many individual mods hosting events out there, here and on fansites, in clans, etc. I pointed out the TET several times, because there are a number of pmods in there, and those are the events for this entire fansite. In fact, this stickied RSOF thread should be hard to miss: Quick find code: 42-43-165-58858663. It even links to the other RSOF thread I mentioned.

I notice you make many remarks that the crier has not been updated. I'm glad you said that because this might interest you in the red elipse:
Now this is the third time reporting has been mentioned about the old selection process. You've always denied that you were selected this way, instead you were 'monitored'. 3 Pieces of evidence prove that pmods in the old system were selected by reports they made. You claim to have made a handful of reports but I think we can pretty much discount this now. This evidence is indisputable, unless of course, you want to make any more ridiculous claims?
Yet you fail to mention the town crier screenshot. And somehow evidence that you once disregarded is now indesputable. The town crier screenshot mentions quality, not quantiy as well, so we can safely say you are wrong in assuming that it was entirely based on quantity.
You still have to have a good quantity to be measured on your quality, so nope. Its not me you'll have to convince, its yourself. 3 pieces of 'official' evidence state otherwise so no idea why you're still trying to score the point on the town crier. Do you still wish to make these ridiculous claims or are you going to come into the real world?
What is the town crier if not official evidence? And the stickied thread? In fact the official evidence read, at the surface level, in favor of my argument as well.

You also make many references to Jagex not telling us the truth, yet you place your trust on TruthScape, which even states ‘Things have changed a great deal in the last year or so, in some ways for the better, and some for the worse. On the plus side, Jagex has a new CEO, and has shown a new spirit of cooperation that I find most welcome; the company has also made structural changes to the game that have made many of the issue sections of TruthScape obsolete’. Do you think you'll find the answers you seek there? Are you after someone to tell you its all a conspiracy theory or something?
The forums remained open after the site was closed, and the issues discussed there are still relevant. Plus, that's what Qeltar says about his site, not what its community says about the issue.
So I'm right, its more for those who claim all is bad with RS, but still pay the fee's each month instead of playing another game. Hmmmmm thats logical. You posted on there to try to get a more favourable answer instead of posting on tipit.
Considering that no member of the site other than me is a part of this debate at the moment I'm pretty sure they're unbiased, though. And I am the only one who has posted both here and there. They are completely unrelated to this thread.

Now why would anyone be a pmod and state that Jagex aren’t telling the truth? If it is such an issue for you why bother playing at all? Its a game and you can vote with your wallet and cancel your subscription if you feel this way.
Because in the end, does it matter? Jagex was not entirely honest about their mod selection process, which they changed anyway. As I said before it only matters as far as this debate goes.
Right......so now you admit that in the end, Jagex needed to be a little economical to save themselves. If it was all about the debate, why are you so easily drawn into sites such as truthscape? You complain so much about Jagex its unreal. From your pov, I think its more than just for the debate as you seem to have a lot of issues. So I ask again, if its such a problem, why bother playing? Vote with your wallet.
I've only complained on this thread, really. And it's a nice community, and still has some great gameplay tips.

You have also questioned JMod Catalina’s integrity as to whether she was telling us the truth. I have continually asked you whether what she said was true:
Really? So, for the record, Mod Catalina does not know what she is talking about? As far as interpretation of argument goes as I've said before do you want truth or want to be loved?
Remember the thing about Mod Mat K claiming that the player did not lose 300m from a bug at MA?

Even in your last post you skipped around this point, not answering the question directly. What am I supposed to conclude? As a pmod don’t you think you are embarrassing yourself and your community by making statements then trying not to answer them because you know you’ve dug a hole for yourself?
In that case time to dig myself out.
I disagree with your interpretation of it, her post merely repeats the same thing as the article. Which is that they are going to try a new system for moderator selection, because the old one had its limits. .
If Mod Catalina is repeating the same thing as the article, and Jagex are wrong twice, and is Mod Catalina lying about the issue then? Come on, don't try to evade this.
I could have sworn I answered that on a post I made a few days back... Did you happen to miss it?

Your Status
In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:
If you're not enough without it then you should really re-consider why you do it. You don't need a crown to play RS, help people, report people or even break up arguments unless you're a weak person who has to stand behind a crown to do it. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
True, but the perks that come with it are worth taking it for.

A petty damning statement from yourself. From this I can only assume that you’re not able to play RS at all without the crown. You have stated that you will not give up the crown even though you have been given many opportunities to do so. I would have applauded you for it and given you full credit on your principles.
You always seem to go towards the extremes. I am able to play the game well without the crown, but that doesn't mean that I don't like the tools and information that come with it.
No, thats not what you have said above. You agreed with my point as you wanted the 'perks' that go with it. This isn't extreme, this is another case of using your own posts against you. You wrote the answer, not me. Proves the point of why you need the crown. Status.
It is, however, an extreme to say that because I like some features of the role I can't play the game without them. And to further suggest that because I like those features I am in it for the status.

You then stated this in a response to Erewhon2
A simple "ty" is not enough for you as it is Jrhairychest or myself.....you want the crown as recognition
Now, why would I want a crown as recognition if a majority of people hates it? That simply doesn't make sense.
Which pretty much sums things up considering you can’t be without it.
Or that as a status symbol it is pretty weak. If it was truly the status you believe it is, why do people hate it? The perceived role that accompanies it.
This together with your crown statement above shows that you're not enough without it. A simple 'ty' isn't good enough for you. You need the crown.
That assumes I took the crown as a form of recognition, which is untrue. Would you mind explaining how I can somehow be both fully in it for the status but make no time to actually play the game because I'm busy policing it? Those are a few things you contradicted yourself on...

You also claim that you’ve been pmodding under the old system, and are now claiming that you are pmodding in the community, after the Jagex announcement was stated. You said you didn’t bother with the old community, yet you’ve completely changed your focus.

Erewhon 2 was quite right to point this out. In August you wrote:
a_local_guy, on 25 August 2009 - 11:43 PM, said:
I'm as distant from the rest of the mod community as I can be while still being a part of it. That doesn't mean I can't observe a contradiction outside of said community.

I was pmodding under the old system in the early days of the new system, because as far as I had heard then the new system was not entirely in effect yet. If I'm pmodding in the new system it's because I now know what that system is. I at that time didn't bother with the community because I didn't have the time to do so. And I returned to it later when I realized that It didn't take much effort to just go from the suggestion threads I was maintaining to it.
You state that you distance yourself from the community, and now you say 'hey its great'. Completely contradictory.
No, it isn't. Because I managed to go back to it shortly after making that post. And up until around the time of that post was a part of it.

It seems as we go along you’re changing your story to fit your argument as you go along. You’re tying yourself in knots with these things to try to make your arguments fit the points as they are put forward. It just looks bad on your part.
Times do change though. Especially since my opinions change when I learn things.
If this were true then you still wouldn't be trying to defend an old system, and even worse, agree with my statemetns then disagree regarding your need of the crown. See your own posts. You haven't learned anything. If you did you'd realise just how many contradictions you make throughout your posts. Exactly why I like having you here. The more knots you tie, the more your points fall apart. :^_^:
Ah, but the contradictions are there because of the learning... Had I truly learned nothing I wouldn't be changing what I say, true?

Your Community
You state you are not representing the pmod community, only yourself. Yet in your last post you said:
By arguing that I'm not in it for the status, I'm proving that I am?
I do not represent the pmod community, but I am defending them as a part of them. And I'm not sure how defending or their purpose them shows how I'm in it for the status.
This contradicts itself. And you’ve proved more than once you’d never give up your status. Up until you made the first such statement I believed you were representing your pmod community and not yourself. You identified yourself as a pmod and posters view you as a pmod. Simple. By posting things against Jagex and their jmods as well as changing your story and denying things that have been evidenced just makes the pmod community look worse not better. I (Can’t believe I’m saying this!) can’t help feeling you’ve short changed them in your posts.
That's your belief though. I for one always assumed I'd be representing A Local Guy, who is a pmod. Considering I do things differently than you think the rest of the community does that should be further proof that I'm here as an individual. With that in mind though, I do feel like defending the rest of them while I'm here.
Lmfao. Please feel free to continue posting along this line.
Well I would but there really is nothing to address with your response to it. You may have forgotten to actually build a response there.

The more I read of your posts, the more I am glad that Jagex will change things for the better in the pmod community. You have justified their response to the whole issue of changing how they select and who they select.
Once again, one does not equal all.
Ditto this.
Again...

Hope I didn't miss anything... And I figured out multi quote! :razz:

You didn't miss a thing. You prove my case. Please feel free to change your mind, state things are lies and skirt around points as usual though. Forgot to post this in the last post, but in future don't erase my questions or quotes. I noticed a few posts back 3 went missing in your replies (No suprise!). The Mod Catalina question, the part where you admitted to wanting the perks and the part where yet again I gave the option of demodding. If you're going to play games like that then it just removes any credibility you have left.

But is that anything compared to the entire post that both you and Erewhon2 missed? If I'm not wrong it's post #623 on this thread.

[/hide]

a_local_guy
Posted Today, 01:14 AM
erewhon2, on 25 October 2009 - 02:06 PM, said:
Which still raises the question of why you wanted to be a Pmod originally (or 3 months ago). Interesting that you have now decided to have something to do with the Pmod community and strangely thats now your reason for wanting the role. :huh:
3 months is a short period of time considering that I've been a pmod for about three years. And for most of that time I was involved with the community.
That is not what you said previously! See Jrhairychest's post and my one, you said
I'm as distant from the rest of the mod community as I can be

When I challenged you on that you said:
And yet that quote is from three months ago. During which time it is very possible for me to get back into the community at least a little bit

Therefore according to you, prior to that quote, you were not involved in the community, that has only occured recently!
But after that quote I said at least once that I was involved for a long time before and went back to it after.

I see you again changing what you say to fit the argument you are making at the time. I think it is about time you sat down and took a serious look at yourself and all you believe you represent, because its a false image. You need to step outside of your opinions and look at the arguments you are making objectively. You may believe what you say at the time, but you appear to struggle with self reflection and show no evidence of self awareness. You say you are learning, what are you learning? Rules? How to do this or that?
Are you learning anything about self honesty, reflection, moral fibre, acceptance of who and what you are......do you even like yourself? Helping others begins at home (and thats a metaphor by the way), learning to help others without expectations and global recognition is part of self development. Not everyone can achieve it, but then you need to be honest and accept that about yourself. The hardest person to be really honest with, is yourself....I'm not sure you can do it.
Actually there's always a nagging feeling if you aren't being fully honest with yourself, and that can be pretty hard to miss.
I'd think it's a bit more worrying that you can accuse me of all of these things while you refuse to acknowledge that my point of view may have some validity, at least for this argument. I know full well what I'm saying, why, and the results of it. To accuse me of being dishonest with myself or lacking self-knowledge because I do not follow your views seems far worse than an actual lack of self-knowledge may be.
It's a lot easier to point out the flaws of another person than it is for your own.

There's also http://forum.tip.it/topic/249248-quick-question/

October 27, 2009

Perhaps you could look for yourself then? I'm sure there are a great many individual mods hosting events out there, here and on fansites, in clans, etc. I pointed out the TET several times, because there are a number of pmods in there, and those are the events for this entire fansite. In fact, this stickied RSOF thread should be hard to miss: Quick find code: 42-43-165-58858663. It even links to the other RSOF thread I mentioned.
The chat channels are not 'community' based things, TET and other is not full of RS pmods acting in the community as its a varied mix of players (which I've pointed out many times) so pmods are going to be the minority here, and your sticky, suprise suprise, is dated for MAY THIS YEAR so its a recent thing. Interestingly enough, you havent posted within this sticky either so its not like you've been involved with anything. You cant cover up for pmods not doing anything for the past with recent things.

What is the town crier if not official evidence? And the stickied thread? In fact the official evidence read, at the surface level, in favor of my argument as well.
]Its official evidence alright of a DEAD system that you were selected under, which included your reporting. The thread Ive answered. Nothing in your favour I'm afraid.

Considering that no member of the site other than me is a part of this debate at the moment I'm pretty sure they're unbiased, though. And I am the only one who has posted both here and there. They are completely unrelated to this thread.
It's conspiracy theory central and even the author admits Jagex have improved which he states is one of the reasons he is quitting doing it.
I've only complained on this thread, really. And it's a nice community, and still has some great gameplay tips.
You've complained how badly they do things, what they don't/won't do and how they lie. And which community? The same one you're not a part of...oo sorry you are a part of?

I could have sworn I answered that on a post I made a few days back... Did you happen to miss it?
Until I get a straight answer, not the yada yada yada, I'll ask again. Do you think Mod Catalina was lying? Im enjoying the fact you wont give a straight answer and your previous responses stating well, shes not part of community management are fun.

In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:
If you're not enough without it then you should really re-consider why you do it. You don't need a crown to play RS, help people, report people or even break up arguments unless you're a weak person who has to stand behind a crown to do it. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
True, but the perks that come with it are worth taking it for.
It is, however, an extreme to say that because I like some features of the role I can't play the game without them. And to further suggest that because I like those features I am in it for the status.
This is your answer to my post, remember? Are you going to try to back away from what you've said to change your argument again to fit what you post? Yet another change of story?

That assumes I took the crown as a form of recognition, which is untrue. Would you mind explaining how I can somehow be both fully in it for the status but make no time to actually play the game because I'm busy policing it? Those are a few things you contradicted yourself on...
I dont think so. Your change of heart regarding community etc. Is a new thing. Before that you admitted you didnt want to get involved. When Erewhon2 has constantly asked you Why be a pmod? Youve used the community thing as the excuse. So what about before that when you werent involved? Why be a pmod then?

No, it isn't. Because I managed to go back to it shortly after making that post. And up until around the time of that post was a part of it.
That contradicts itself (again!). You went back to the community after making that post, but up until the time of the post you were in the community too? Duh!

Ah, but the contradictions are there because of the learning... Had I truly learned nothing I wouldn't be changing what I say, true?
In that case, you've learned nothing and the original statement was correct. You're just looking to fit the point on every post and its not working for you. Again, you're looking bad for it.

Well I would but there really is nothing to address with your response to it. You may have forgotten to actually build a response there.
There wasnt a need to, being my point. You're doing a good job of self destruction and embarrassment to your own community by yourself. You dont need my help on that.

But is that anything compared to the entire post that both you and Erewhon2 missed? If I'm not wrong it's post #623 on this thread.
In case you hadn't noticed I responded by using your own posts against you. Even if I put all my evidence to one side, I could have used just your responses in the first place. I'm simply using your own evidence against you. I didnt respond to that particular post and it was time for a round up.

here's also http://forum.tip.it/topic/249248-quick-question/
Interesting, though you should have answered elucin8tor a little more honestly. Ill come in when the times appropriate.

I see you again changing what you say to fit the argument you are making at the time. I think it is about time you sat down and took a serious look at yourself and all you believe you represent, because its a false image. You need to step outside of your opinions and look at the arguments you are making objectively. You may believe what you say at the time, but you appear to struggle with self reflection and show no evidence of self awareness. You say you are learning, what are you learning? Rules? How to do this or that?
Are you learning anything about self honesty, reflection, moral fibre, acceptance of who and what you are......do you even like yourself? Helping others begins at home (and thats a metaphor by the way), learning to help others without expectations and global recognition is part of self development. Not everyone can achieve it, but then you need to be honest and accept that about yourself. The hardest person to be really honest with, is yourself....I'm not sure you can do it.
Actually there's always a nagging feeling if you aren't being fully honest with yourself, and that can be pretty hard to miss.
I'd think it's a bit more worrying that you can accuse me of all of these things while you refuse to acknowledge that my point of view may have some validity, at least for this argument. I know full well what I'm saying, why, and the results of it. To accuse me of being dishonest with myself or lacking self-knowledge because I do not follow your views seems far worse than an actual lack of self-knowledge may be.
It's a lot easier to point out the flaws of another person than it is for your own.

Erewhon2 was spot on in her point. I wouldn't expect you to agree with points made, but the chopping and changing of mind and not being truthful about your true motives to be a pmod doesnt help you at all. You have the front to ask to take your point of view seriously when your own attitude towards any evidence is dismissed as Jagex lies. As time prevails you're looking more and more ridiculous but in the end thats your choice. Even your own evidence is pitiful. I wouldnt say it was Erewhon2 who needed to self-reflect , its yourself.

Personally I know my flaws. Never wanted pmod, would never make a good pmod if I was. I know my limitations. Time for you to realise yours and as Erewhon2 said, be honest with yourself. I know you're pmod for the status. You aren't involved in the community and you don't play the game as a game. You just want to play the plastic policeman. You just want to admit it to yourself.

Under the new system, however, I see no reason why Erewhon2 could not be an effective pmod. She seems understand what the system should be about, including community and the need not to report but to be reasonable. Id say go for it Erewhon2. Lets face it, you cannot do much worse than the previous batch weve had.

stephandr · October 27, 2009

Looking at majority of the posts here have to agree to disagree, seeing friends with there modships and then even couples both being mods and then there sub players being mods also kinda makes you open your eyes a little, but i do certainly agree you dont have to be a mod for helping others or reporting. Most the players come from mixed ages all over, it is directed at all ages not just cetain ones.

Being an adult myself on here and playing over 7 years ive always helped others and got along playing on rs when i am not working, i dont need a silver crown to prove or aim for,but just seems the same topic keeps getting raised all the time regarding mods, and TO nail it to the the point i think they have way more than what they need and to show mods as community based i kinda have to disagree due to seeing bad ones, and to agree by seeing a minority that are good.

Thats my 2p's worth and final say:

All the best and happy gaming.

Alg · October 27, 2009

[hide]

Perhaps you could look for yourself then? I'm sure there are a great many individual mods hosting events out there, here and on fansites, in clans, etc. I pointed out the TET several times, because there are a number of pmods in there, and those are the events for this entire fansite. In fact, this stickied RSOF thread should be hard to miss: Quick find code: 42-43-165-58858663. It even links to the other RSOF thread I mentioned.
The chat channels are not 'community' based things, TET and other is not full of RS pmods acting in the community as its a varied mix of players (which I've pointed out many times) so pmods are going to be the minority here, and your sticky, suprise suprise, is dated for MAY THIS YEAR so its a recent thing. Interestingly enough, you havent posted within this sticky either so its not like you've been involved with anything. You cant cover up for pmods not doing anything for the past with recent things.
However, the Jagex article is from July. So the thread in question is still older than it.
You're more than willing to judge a community based on a handful of individuals, so why then are the mods in the TET not a reflection of it?
What do you want? Event threads from individual mods (Who do not appear as mods on the RSOF) dated before this year (With the way the RSOF works, deleted months ago) that represent the mod community (to say that it is such on the RSOF goes against their rules)? The point you have given is impossible to disprove.
In addition, your evidence is from this summer. If I'm expected to find older evidence, why don't you dig up their stance towards modding from before this change? To keep saying that your July article is proof but disregarding anything recent on my end is a double standard.

What is the town crier if not official evidence? And the stickied thread? In fact the official evidence read, at the surface level, in favor of my argument as well.
]Its official evidence alright of a DEAD system that you were selected under, which included your reporting. The thread Ive answered. Nothing in your favour I'm afraid.
But seeing as you disregard my recent evidence as well I have to wonder if you just hate being wrong.

Considering that no member of the site other than me is a part of this debate at the moment I'm pretty sure they're unbiased, though. And I am the only one who has posted both here and there. They are completely unrelated to this thread.
It's conspiracy theory central and even the author admits Jagex have improved which he states is one of the reasons he is quitting doing it.
Here is his reason:
But being in the middle of a severe economic downturn, I just don't have the luxury of spending hour after hour playing video games and then writing about them just for personal enjoyment. I'm an adult with a mortgage and three kids, and writing is a big part of how I earn my living. I simply cannot afford to spend time writing material and giving it away for free, nor can I devote large amounts of time to revising content that is no longer accurate or timely. Given this, I have determined that it is best for me to just shut the site down and move on.
And if you actually read the site you'll notice that very rarely are their conspiracy theories, but complaints about bugs in game content or disbalanced areas of the game, including solutions to said problems. You can find the same thing on the RSOF and Tip.It's rant sections, but without the guides.
I've only complained on this thread, really. And it's a nice community, and still has some great gameplay tips.
You've complained how badly they do things, what they don't/won't do and how they lie. And which community? The same one you're not a part of...oo sorry you are a part of?
And at the same time I've praised them and offered suggestions to further improve those parts of the game.

I could have sworn I answered that on a post I made a few days back... Did you happen to miss it?
Until I get a straight answer, not the yada yada yada, I'll ask again. Do you think Mod Catalina was lying? Im enjoying the fact you wont give a straight answer and your previous responses stating well, shes not part of community management are fun.
Straight answer:
If she was lying it's in the same way that you admit the company lies to protect their image , so yes. Whether or not that lie is bad is another story.
Funny, I remember saying that months ago... And you scoffed at the idea that Jagex would lie. Now you still scoff at it but admit that they do so to protect their image.

In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:
If you're not enough without it then you should really re-consider why you do it. You don't need a crown to play RS, help people, report people or even break up arguments unless you're a weak person who has to stand behind a crown to do it. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
True, but the perks that come with it are worth taking it for.
It is, however, an extreme to say that because I like some features of the role I can't play the game without them. And to further suggest that because I like those features I am in it for the status.
This is your answer to my post, remember? Are you going to try to back away from what you've said to change your argument again to fit what you post? Yet another change of story?
How did I change my story here? I just went into more detail about it.

That assumes I took the crown as a form of recognition, which is untrue. Would you mind explaining how I can somehow be both fully in it for the status but make no time to actually play the game because I'm busy policing it? Those are a few things you contradicted yourself on...
I dont think so. Your change of heart regarding community etc. Is a new thing. Before that you admitted you didnt want to get involved. When Erewhon2 has constantly asked you Why be a pmod? Youve used the community thing as the excuse. So what about before that when you werent involved? Why be a pmod then?
At that time.
And why be a pmod? Because it doesn't affect the game negatively. I still used it to help others when I took a break from the community, and the cons of having it were insignificant.

No, it isn't. Because I managed to go back to it shortly after making that post. And up until around the time of that post was a part of it.
That contradicts itself (again!). You went back to the community after making that post, but up until the time of the post you were in the community too? Duh!
Yes. That's not a contradiction. I was in it, I took a break, I went back to it. Not hard, is it? Because I can't explain it any more simply.

Ah, but the contradictions are there because of the learning... Had I truly learned nothing I wouldn't be changing what I say, true?
In that case, you've learned nothing and the original statement was correct. You're just looking to fit the point on every post and its not working for you. Again, you're looking bad for it.
But if I have to change my answer to fit the post it's only because you stopped tolerating the same answers months ago. Plus the questions have changed, and often you called me on a contradiction that wasn't such.

Well I would but there really is nothing to address with your response to it. You may have forgotten to actually build a response there.
There wasnt a need to, being my point. You're doing a good job of self destruction and embarrassment to your own community by yourself. You dont need my help on that.
But you do complain when I ignore a post, even if I give a reason. Your hypocrisy is showing...

But is that anything compared to the entire post that both you and Erewhon2 missed? If I'm not wrong it's post #623 on this thread.
In case you hadn't noticed I responded by using your own posts against you. Even if I put all my evidence to one side, I could have used just your responses in the first place. I'm simply using your own evidence against you. I didnt respond to that particular post and it was time for a round up.
Those responses were relevant? Barely if at all. You didn't answer it, you just dug up posts you could answer and shoved them at me.

here's also http://forum.tip.it/topic/249248-quick-question/
Interesting, though you should have answered elucin8tor a little more honestly. Ill come in when the times appropriate.
If years of education in scientific method and psychology have taught me anything, it's that you try to keep things neutral. And I feel that linking that thread to this debate would compromise that. The question is simply "What do you think of this?"

I see you again changing what you say to fit the argument you are making at the time. I think it is about time you sat down and took a serious look at yourself and all you believe you represent, because its a false image. You need to step outside of your opinions and look at the arguments you are making objectively. You may believe what you say at the time, but you appear to struggle with self reflection and show no evidence of self awareness. You say you are learning, what are you learning? Rules? How to do this or that?
Are you learning anything about self honesty, reflection, moral fibre, acceptance of who and what you are......do you even like yourself? Helping others begins at home (and thats a metaphor by the way), learning to help others without expectations and global recognition is part of self development. Not everyone can achieve it, but then you need to be honest and accept that about yourself. The hardest person to be really honest with, is yourself....I'm not sure you can do it.
Actually there's always a nagging feeling if you aren't being fully honest with yourself, and that can be pretty hard to miss.
I'd think it's a bit more worrying that you can accuse me of all of these things while you refuse to acknowledge that my point of view may have some validity, at least for this argument. I know full well what I'm saying, why, and the results of it. To accuse me of being dishonest with myself or lacking self-knowledge because I do not follow your views seems far worse than an actual lack of self-knowledge may be.
It's a lot easier to point out the flaws of another person than it is for your own.

Erewhon2 was spot on in her point. I wouldn't expect you to agree with points made, but the chopping and changing of mind and not being truthful about your true motives to be a pmod doesnt help you at all. You have the front to ask to take your point of view seriously when your own attitude towards any evidence is dismissed as Jagex lies. As time prevails you're looking more and more ridiculous but in the end thats your choice. Even your own evidence is pitiful. I wouldnt say it was Erewhon2 who needed to self-reflect , its yourself.
To make such an accusation as a suggestion that I could not be honest without agreeing with your perspectives, however...

Personally I know my flaws. Never wanted pmod, would never make a good pmod if I was. I know my limitations. Time for you to realise yours and as Erewhon2 said, be honest with yourself. I know you're pmod for the status. You aren't involved in the community and you don't play the game as a game. You just want to play the plastic policeman. You just want to admit it to yourself.
Here is another contradiction: I play for the status as a plastic policeman, which could be a purpose.

Under the new system, however, I see no reason why Erewhon2 could not be an effective pmod. She seems understand what the system should be about, including community and the need not to report but to be reasonable. Id say go for it Erewhon2. Lets face it, you cannot do much worse than the previous batch weve had.
Hopefully she knows where to register then. Would be interesting to see what she would think after doing so, actually...

[/hide]

Erewhon2 · October 28, 2009

Funny, I remember saying that months ago... And you scoffed at the idea that Jagex would lie. Now you still scoff at it but admit that they do so to protect their image.
As far as I can see, neither Jrhairychest nor myself have accused Jagex of lying, what has been stated is that they have been "diplomatic" (Definition: skilled in dealing with sensitive matters or people), nowhere does that suggest lying.

And why be a pmod? Because it doesn't affect the game negatively. I still used it to help others when I took a break from the community, and the cons of having it were insignificant.
Yeah I can just see Jagex accepting that as an answer! Lmao! Why do you want to be a Pmod? Because it doesn't effect the game negatively :huh: You said you wanted it because of the community and I may have accepted that, except that you dropped out of the community and moved "as far from it as possible", yet retained your modship....why? We've already cleared up that being a helpful player is something that anyone can do, which is why you stated that being part of the community and for recognition was your reason to taking the crown. So why did you not drop your modship? You liked the status and didn't want to lose it. :shame:

But if I have to change my answer to fit the post it's only because you stopped tolerating the same answers months ago. Plus the questions have changed, and often you called me on a contradiction that wasn't such.
Because your answers were unsatisfactory, they did not demonstrate insight or honesty, and that has been evidenced the longer this thread goes on.

But is that anything compared to the entire post that both you and Erewhon2 missed? If I'm not wrong it's post #623 on this thread.
And I did respond to that post, well those elements that hadn't already been answered

If years of education in scientific method and psychology have taught me anything, it's that you try to keep things neutral.
Absolute rubbish, you have no idea what you are talking about! Scientific methodology is about finding evidence to prove a theory, and Phychological methodology is about finding the theory (or theoretical frameworks) to provide the intervention, neither is 'neutral'.

Actually there's always a nagging feeling if you aren't being fully honest with yourself, and that can be pretty hard to miss.
Well either you're not getting that 'nagging feeling' this time, or you are missing it

I'd think it's a bit more worrying that you can accuse me of all of these things while you refuse to acknowledge that my point of view may have some validity, at least for this argument. I know full well what I'm saying, why, and the results of it. To accuse me of being dishonest with myself or lacking self-knowledge because I do not follow your views seems far worse than an actual lack of self-knowledge may be.
It's a lot easier to point out the flaws of another person than it is for your own.
I was prepared to give validity to your arguments on a couple of occasions, but you change them. Or you back down from them and try and come up with something different. For example I thought we had agreed that any player could be 'helpful' and provide support to other players, so being a Pmod was not necessary for that. You wanted to be part of the Pmod community (even though I personally would still consider that as seeking status), I understood that.....but then realised that you had said that you dropped out of that community, therefore that argument lost validity immediately. So we came back full circle.

[Here is another contradiction: I play for the status as a plastic policeman, which could be a purpose.
I would see a 'plastic policeman' as being artificial, and having no purpose....obviously you don't

Hopefully she knows where to register then. Would be interesting to see what she would think after doing so, actually...
You have got to be kidding! Both of you! lol, If I wanted to be a community leader, I would already be doing that.....And I don't need the grief in my leisure time either <_<

Alg · October 28, 2009

Funny, I remember saying that months ago... And you scoffed at the idea that Jagex would lie. Now you still scoff at it but admit that they do so to protect their image.
As far as I can see, neither Jrhairychest nor myself have accused Jagex of lying, what has been stated is that they have been "diplomatic" (Definition: skilled in dealing with sensitive matters or people), nowhere does that suggest lying.
Jrhairychest did call it a white lie regarding the Mod Catia post, and said that it was for the best that they did so. Furthermore he admits that had they openly said that they chose mods mostly on reports it would be more trouble than it was worth. Somehow he then can accuse me of lying when I say that they never said it was about reports...

And why be a pmod? Because it doesn't affect the game negatively. I still used it to help others when I took a break from the community, and the cons of having it were insignificant.
Yeah I can just see Jagex accepting that as an answer! Lmao! Why do you want to be a Pmod? Because it doesn't effect the game negatively :huh: You said you wanted it because of the community and I may have accepted that, except that you dropped out of the community and moved "as far from it as possible", yet retained your modship....why? We've already cleared up that being a helpful player is something that anyone can do, which is why you stated that being part of the community and for recognition was your reason to taking the crown. So why did you not drop your modship? You liked the status and didn't want to lose it. :shame:
But how many times do I have to say that within three months I can get back into it?
This is not a simply black-and-white issue, so if you don't see a purpose it doesn't mean that there is only status left. It simply means you do not see a purpose. I do, and I use it.

But if I have to change my answer to fit the post it's only because you stopped tolerating the same answers months ago. Plus the questions have changed, and often you called me on a contradiction that wasn't such.
Because your answers were unsatisfactory, they did not demonstrate insight or honesty, and that has been evidenced the longer this thread goes on.
So should I have stayed with "unsatisfactory" or dishonest answers, or should I post something different to see what the people I am arguing with agree with? Or should I have just dropped out of this and let you think you convinced me that I'm in it for the status?

But is that anything compared to the entire post that both you and Erewhon2 missed? If I'm not wrong it's post #623 on this thread.
And I did respond to that post, well those elements that hadn't already been answered
The response I saw was filled with quotes from 2-3 months ago that had ignored some vital parts of my post. I admit that the parts that you may have answered weren't the ones I hoped you would.

If years of education in scientific method and psychology have taught me anything, it's that you try to keep things neutral.
Absolute rubbish, you have no idea what you are talking about! Scientific methodology is about finding evidence to prove a theory, and Phychological methodology is about finding the theory (or theoretical frameworks) to provide the intervention, neither is 'neutral'.
But you also try to keep biases out of your evidence, ensuring that your results aren't affected by them.

Actually there's always a nagging feeling if you aren't being fully honest with yourself, and that can be pretty hard to miss.
Well either you're not getting that 'nagging feeling' this time, or you are missing it
Or I'm being fully honest with what I do know, because you both also admit that there are things that you keep from customers, mods included.

I'd think it's a bit more worrying that you can accuse me of all of these things while you refuse to acknowledge that my point of view may have some validity, at least for this argument. I know full well what I'm saying, why, and the results of it. To accuse me of being dishonest with myself or lacking self-knowledge because I do not follow your views seems far worse than an actual lack of self-knowledge may be.
It's a lot easier to point out the flaws of another person than it is for your own.
I was prepared to give validity to your arguments on a couple of occasions, but you change them. Or you back down from them and try and come up with something different. For example I thought we had agreed that any player could be 'helpful' and provide support to other players, so being a Pmod was not necessary for that. You wanted to be part of the Pmod community (even though I personally would still consider that as seeking status), I understood that.....but then realised that you had said that you dropped out of that community, therefore that argument lost validity immediately. So we came back full circle.
Some may have been justified in that it was becoming very circular... Do I say the same thing as the last few posts, to get the same answers, or do I try a different approach.
In other times it's because one of you two asked for a different answer. Several times when I gave my reasons for being a mod you told me they weren't valid, and to come up with something different. When I did, you told me I'm not being consistent. Really, it's a catch-22.

[Here is another contradiction: I play for the status as a plastic policeman, which could be a purpose.
I would see a 'plastic policeman' as being artificial, and having no purpose....obviously you don't
I would have assumed that's why I'm on the purpose side of this.

Hopefully she knows where to register then. Would be interesting to see what she would think after doing so, actually...
You have got to be kidding! Both of you! lol, If I wanted to be a community leader, I would already be doing that.....And I don't need the grief in my leisure time either <_<
Ah well... :razz:

October 29, 2009

However, the Jagex article is from July. So the thread in question is still older than it.
You're more than willing to judge a community based on a handful of individuals, so why then are the mods in the TET not a reflection of it?
What do you want? Event threads from individual mods (Who do not appear as mods on the RSOF) dated before this year (With the way the RSOF works, deleted months ago) that represent the mod community (to say that it is such on the RSOF goes against their rules)? The point you have given is impossible to disprove.
In addition, your evidence is from this summer. If I'm expected to find older evidence, why don't you dig up their stance towards modding from before this change? To keep saying that your July article is proof but disregarding anything recent on my end is a double standard.

The article is new. What happened to all this 'community' work you were all supposed to be doing previously? Have you read the first page? Mod Seven states a 'new and original idea'. So this sort of thing wasn't going on at all before that time. To set up what Jagex had done would take months of planning, so the ball would have been rolling probably before I even created this thread. And worst of all, you've not been involved with it yourself!

Your TET evidence is nil as you've nothing to show me to prove your case. If I'm giving poinst that are impossible to prove, don't try to make claims about this, that and the other then whinge when I say 'back it up'.

But seeing as you disregard my recent evidence as well I have to wonder if you just hate being wrong.
Give me evidence that I can't disregard, not the stuff you think is evidence but can't back up or goes against you.

Here is his reason:
But being in the middle of a severe economic downturn, I just don't have the luxury of spending hour after hour playing video games and then writing about them just for personal enjoyment. I'm an adult with a mortgage and three kids, and writing is a big part of how I earn my living. I simply cannot afford to spend time writing material and giving it away for free, nor can I devote large amounts of time to revising content that is no longer accurate or timely. Given this, I have determined that it is best for me to just shut the site down and move on.
And if you actually read the site you'll notice that very rarely are their conspiracy theories, but complaints about bugs in game content or disbalanced areas of the game, including solutions to said problems. You can find the same thing on the RSOF and Tip.It's rant sections, but without the guides.
So you cannot even admit even he says Jagex have done some good things, which was my point? I've had a good look at the site. This, together with what you think about Jagex, perfectly sums up where you get half your ideas from regarding Jagex being so bad. I love the fact that you cry about them on the one hand, but won't give up your modship or quit the game in the other. Priceless stuff.

And at the same time I've praised them and offered suggestions to further improve those parts of the game.
All thats been evident on this thread are complaints. How many times have I referred to 'biting the hand that feeds you'?. I think theres more to that. I still think you're an angry man with Jagex with the way they've published about reporting first.

If she was lying it's in the same way that you admit the company lies to protect their image , so yes. Whether or not that lie is bad is another story.
Funny, I remember saying that months ago... And you scoffed at the idea that Jagex would lie. Now you still scoff at it but admit that they do so to protect their image.
At last you've stopped the politician act and answered the question. Bravo. The business will come first, no matter what. They will 'white' lie, not to protect their image, but to protect your feelings and their business income. Put yourself in their shoes....wouldn't you? You'd have whinged if they'd have called you crap, but they were very diplomatic.

In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:
If you're not enough without it then you should really re-consider why you do it. You don't need a crown to play RS, help people, report people or even break up arguments unless you're a weak person who has to stand behind a crown to do it. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
True, but the perks that come with it are worth taking it for.
How did I change my story here? I just went into more detail about it.
Then you admit you are too weak to play the game without the crown then, so you need it for recognition. Status symbol.

At that time.
And why be a pmod? Because it doesn't affect the game negatively. I still used it to help others when I took a break from the community, and the cons of having it were insignificant.
Lmfao. What sort of answer is 'doesnt affect the game negatively'?? Oo I want to be a pmod so I don't affect the game negatively!!!!! :razz:. You couldn't think of an answer, without it being about the status could you? After all you don't need the crown to help others so you have nothing left. Above is your previous answer admitting your weakness without it. Sorry, but your case for it not being about the status is pretty thin.

Yes. That's not a contradiction. I was in it, I took a break, I went back to it. Not hard, is it? Because I can't explain it any more simply.
Very much a contradiction. At no point in the earlier posts did you mention taking a break from the community and judging by your attitude you're not really a 'people' person anyway unless they are fawning at your opinion.

But if I have to change my answer to fit the post it's only because you stopped tolerating the same answers months ago. Plus the questions have changed, and often you called me on a contradiction that wasn't such.
No because you didn't stick to your own scripts.

But you do complain when I ignore a post, even if I give a reason. Your hypocrisy is showing...
What didn't you get about rounding your responses up? I did that because the time was right. There are plenty of posts from Erewhon2 that you blatantly ignored so trying to call me on your post is a ridiculous point.

But is that anything compared to the entire post that both you and Erewhon2 missed? If I'm not wrong it's post #623 on this thread.
In case you hadn't noticed I responded by using your own posts against you. Even if I put all my evidence to one side, I could have used just your responses in the first place. I'm simply using your own evidence against you. I didnt respond to that particular post and it was time for a round up.
Those responses were relevant? Barely if at all. You didn't answer it, you just dug up posts you could answer and shoved them at me.
These are your posts I'm using remember? Considering you say I've 'dug' up a 'few' posts you seem quite compelled to respond much more heavily when I'm pointing out your contradictions. Fantastic!

here's also http://forum.tip.it/topic/249248-quick-question/
Interesting, though you should have answered elucin8tor a little more honestly. Ill come in when the times appropriate.
If years of education in scientific method and psychology have taught me anything, it's that you try to keep things neutral. And I feel that linking that thread to this debate would compromise that. The question is simply "What do you think of this?"

Theres a difference between honesty and neutrality. You could and should have been honest with the poster and not posted dubious comments about why you posted originally on truthscape:
Posting this here was his idea :mrgreen:
or this one from sees_all1 who took the pmod side in this debate posted this:

I'm surprised that they took jrhairchest's question, tbh. Especially seeing what he's had to say on the topic of P-Mods, but I guess there's know way Jagex would know that.

I think the response jr wanted was more along the lines of, "Our Old Pmods only wanted glory from themselves, and were being complete jerkbags, which is why we started taking applications off of wbm."
Certainly not that same response.

Anyhow, I think it means that Jagex is tired of searching for mods, and would rather have resumes.

Unfortunately yours and in particular sees_all1's comments have negated its credibility as a fair post.

October 29, 2009

Looking at majority of the posts here have to agree to disagree, seeing friends with there modships and then even couples both being mods and then there sub players being mods also kinda makes you open your eyes a little, but i do certainly agree you dont have to be a mod for helping others or reporting. Most the players come from mixed ages all over, it is directed at all ages not just cetain ones.

Being an adult myself on here and playing over 7 years ive always helped others and got along playing on rs when i am not working, i dont need a silver crown to prove or aim for,but just seems the same topic keeps getting raised all the time regarding mods, and TO nail it to the the point i think they have way more than what they need and to show mods as community based i kinda have to disagree due to seeing bad ones, and to agree by seeing a minority that are good.

Thats my 2p's worth and final say:
All the best and happy gaming.

Thanks for the post. I actually would agree to disagree but in regards to whats being said by a practising pmod from the old days I'm very happy to continue. I certainly do agree you don't need to be a pmod to do the things being claimed to do in game. In regards to the 'too many pmods' part I would agree but jagex want more. No worries because they will be diluted enough not to notice anyway in time, which will handle the status issue quite nicely. Nice tuppence worth. ;-)

Alg · October 29, 2009

However, the Jagex article is from July. So the thread in question is still older than it.
You're more than willing to judge a community based on a handful of individuals, so why then are the mods in the TET not a reflection of it?
What do you want? Event threads from individual mods (Who do not appear as mods on the RSOF) dated before this year (With the way the RSOF works, deleted months ago) that represent the mod community (to say that it is such on the RSOF goes against their rules)? The point you have given is impossible to disprove.
In addition, your evidence is from this summer. If I'm expected to find older evidence, why don't you dig up their stance towards modding from before this change? To keep saying that your July article is proof but disregarding anything recent on my end is a double standard.
The article is new. What happened to all this 'community' work you were all supposed to be doing previously? Have you read the first page? Mod Seven states a 'new and original idea'. So this sort of thing wasn't going on at all before that time. To set up what Jagex had done would take months of planning, so the ball would have been rolling probably before I even created this thread. And worst of all, you've not been involved with it yourself!
It is a new and original idea for Jagex to go on their official forums to post about Pmod events. It is not new and original for pmods to post their own as individuals.
The thing I've done to get involved with the community was work in one of this site's clan chats, as well as just outright being a member of the community. The join date on this site says I've been doing that for three years. That's what I'm saying. Pmods in the community is not new. Jagex supporting it that openly is. One of the things I said in that post that you didn't directly reply to is that the article is just as much about Jagex as it is mods.

Your TET evidence is nil as you've nothing to show me to prove your case. If I'm giving poinst that are impossible to prove, don't try to make claims about this, that and the other then whinge when I say 'back it up'.
How should I prove that those TET members and chat owners are mods? Screenshot what they say? Though I do like you you completely overlooked the chat one in favor of the TET one that I didn't give as much evidence on.

But seeing as you disregard my recent evidence as well I have to wonder if you just hate being wrong.
Give me evidence that I can't disregard, not the stuff you think is evidence but can't back up or goes against you.
Would be easy but you often disregard it simply by saying "But Jagex says otherwise".

Here is his reason:
But being in the middle of a severe economic downturn, I just don't have the luxury of spending hour after hour playing video games and then writing about them just for personal enjoyment. I'm an adult with a mortgage and three kids, and writing is a big part of how I earn my living. I simply cannot afford to spend time writing material and giving it away for free, nor can I devote large amounts of time to revising content that is no longer accurate or timely. Given this, I have determined that it is best for me to just shut the site down and move on.
And if you actually read the site you'll notice that very rarely are their conspiracy theories, but complaints about bugs in game content or disbalanced areas of the game, including solutions to said problems. You can find the same thing on the RSOF and Tip.It's rant sections, but without the guides.
So you cannot even admit even he says Jagex have done some good things, which was my point? I've had a good look at the site. This, together with what you think about Jagex, perfectly sums up where you get half your ideas from regarding Jagex being so bad. I love the fact that you cry about them on the one hand, but won't give up your modship or quit the game in the other. Priceless stuff.
God forbid that some of those ideas may actually make more sense... I get more parts to the story, the official Jagex optimist one, the thought-out Truthscape one, and the Tip.It one. Then I decide for myself. Which is also part of the reason I keep my modship.

And at the same time I've praised them and offered suggestions to further improve those parts of the game.
All thats been evident on this thread are complaints. How many times have I referred to 'biting the hand that feeds you'?. I think theres more to that. I still think you're an angry man with Jagex with the way they've published about reporting first.
Then explain how I'm taking the same stance that I was before that came out? Purpose over status, that's still my stance. But now I'm beginning to think I'm disagreeing with your interpretation as the Jagex article. Perhaps if you stopped presenting your opinion as Jagex' own words?

If she was lying it's in the same way that you admit the company lies to protect their image , so yes. Whether or not that lie is bad is another story.
Funny, I remember saying that months ago... And you scoffed at the idea that Jagex would lie. Now you still scoff at it but admit that they do so to protect their image.
At last you've stopped the politician act and answered the question. Bravo. The business will come first, no matter what. They will 'white' lie, not to protect their image, but to protect your feelings and their business income. Put yourself in their shoes....wouldn't you? You'd have whinged if they'd have called you crap, but they were very diplomatic.
So you say. I and others seem to have a different view.

In reference to the crown, You posted this answer to my comment in reference to you wanting to keep your crown on p31:
If you're not enough without it then you should really re-consider why you do it. You don't need a crown to play RS, help people, report people or even break up arguments unless you're a weak person who has to stand behind a crown to do it. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.
True, but the perks that come with it are worth taking it for.
How did I change my story here? I just went into more detail about it.
Then you admit you are too weak to play the game without the crown then, so you need it for recognition. Status symbol.
No, not at all. Your words are not mine.
Let's put it this way, and I guarantee that this comparison will not have the effect I want it to have, but can you play the game from a different computer than you uselly use? Yes, easily, maybe even better. But you still use yours. That's the kind of thing I have here. The game is fine without modship, but I'm used to it at this point. And there aren't many cons for keeping it as opposed to getting rid of it.

At that time.
And why be a pmod? Because it doesn't affect the game negatively. I still used it to help others when I took a break from the community, and the cons of having it were insignificant.
Lmfao. What sort of answer is 'doesnt affect the game negatively'?? Oo I want to be a pmod so I don't affect the game negatively!!!!! :razz:. You couldn't think of an answer, without it being about the status could you? After all you don't need the crown to help others so you have nothing left. Above is your previous answer admitting your weakness without it. Sorry, but your case for it not being about the status is pretty thin.
I don't remember admitting it, I remember you admitting it for me. Not the same thing.
It should have been fairly obvious what I meant, but judging by your response I'm guessing you prefer a sarcastic and easy to beat answer than the real one... Which seems to fit with the rest of your posts.

Yes. That's not a contradiction. I was in it, I took a break, I went back to it. Not hard, is it? Because I can't explain it any more simply.
Very much a contradiction. At no point in the earlier posts did you mention taking a break from the community and judging by your attitude you're not really a 'people' person anyway unless they are fawning at your opinion.
I'm not a people person, unless people are fawning over me? What?
The reason I'm not a people person is because I don't like being fawned over. But then, it's much easier to make something up than answer the actual point.

But if I have to change my answer to fit the post it's only because you stopped tolerating the same answers months ago. Plus the questions have changed, and often you called me on a contradiction that wasn't such.
No because you didn't stick to your own scripts.
Improvising is great.

But you do complain when I ignore a post, even if I give a reason. Your hypocrisy is showing...
What didn't you get about rounding your responses up? I did that because the time was right. There are plenty of posts from Erewhon2 that you blatantly ignored so trying to call me on your post is a ridiculous point.
Actually the reason I called you on it is because you spent so much time calling me on missing her posts instead of arguing. It's one thing to miss a post, it's another to do so after yelling at someone else for doing it. And there really is no way for you to deny that you just did that.

But is that anything compared to the entire post that both you and Erewhon2 missed? If I'm not wrong it's post #623 on this thread.
In case you hadn't noticed I responded by using your own posts against you. Even if I put all my evidence to one side, I could have used just your responses in the first place. I'm simply using your own evidence against you. I didn’t respond to that particular post and it was time for a round up.
Those responses were relevant? Barely if at all. You didn't answer it, you just dug up posts you could answer and shoved them at me.
These are your posts I'm using remember? Considering you say I've 'dug' up a 'few' posts you seem quite compelled to respond much more heavily when I'm pointing out your contradictions. Fantastic!
Ah, but that makes you guilty of Quote mining, or if you don't want a wiki answer you can check out the sources that just happen to say the same thing with more words.

here's also http://forum.tip.it/topic/249248-quick-question/
Interesting, though you should have answered elucin8tor a little more honestly. I’ll come in when the time’s appropriate.
If years of education in scientific method and psychology have taught me anything, it's that you try to keep things neutral. And I feel that linking that thread to this debate would compromise that. The question is simply "What do you think of this?"
Theres a difference between honesty and neutrality. You could and should have been honest with the poster and not posted dubious comments about why you posted originally on truthscape:
But as I will say below, I didn't want to post it here because I figured something like that would happen.
Posting this here was his idea :mrgreen:
or this one from sees_all1 who took the pmod side in this debate posted this:

I'm surprised that they took jrhairchest's question, tbh. Especially seeing what he's had to say on the topic of P-Mods, but I guess there's know way Jagex would know that.

I think the response jr wanted was more along the lines of, "Our Old Pmods only wanted glory from themselves, and were being complete jerkbags, which is why we started taking applications off of wbm."
Certainly not that same response.

Anyhow, I think it means that Jagex is tired of searching for mods, and would rather have resumes.

Unfortunately yours and in particular sees_all1's comments have negated its credibility as a fair post.
Which was part of the reason I didn't want to post it here, because people here are probably going to have read this thread. But as I said, it was your idea, so why not actually post where I failed to do so?

This is the longest I've ever spent on a post.

And dear lord it's long. That's why I always deleted used quotes from it before...

November 1, 2009

It is a new and original idea for Jagex to go on their official forums to post about Pmod events. It is not new and original for pmods to post their own as individuals.
The thing I've done to get involved with the community was work in one of this site's clan chats, as well as just outright being a member of the community. The join date on this site says I've been doing that for three years. That's what I'm saying. Pmods in the community is not new. Jagex supporting it that openly is. One of the things I said in that post that you didn't directly reply to is that the article is just as much about Jagex as it is mods.
If what you say is true, youd have stacks of evidence to prove this. Where is your evidence that all this community work was going on? Just because your join date specifies when you joined the forums, this does not prove you were actively doing anything in terms of community work. Evidence please.

How should I prove that those TET members and chat owners are mods? Screenshot what they say? Though I do like you you completely overlooked the chat one in favor of the TET one that I didn't give as much evidence on.
Thats up to you how you prove it. The trouble is we both know there will only be a small % of pmods on TET or indeed anything else as active community members. This doesnt account for the rest and certainly nothing has accounted for any community efforts in days gone by.

Would be easy but you often disregard it simply by saying "But Jagex says otherwise".
There seems to be a lot of you say this but Jagex says that in this debate doesnt there? Doesnt this bring anything to light yet?

So you cannot even admit even he says Jagex have done some good things, which was my point? I've had a good look at the site. This, together with what you think about Jagex, perfectly sums up where you get half your ideas from regarding Jagex being so bad. I love the fact that you cry about them on the one hand, but won't give up your modship or quit the game in the other. Priceless stuff.
God forbid that some of those ideas may actually make more sense... I get more parts to the story, the official Jagex optimist one, the thought-out Truthscape one, and the Tip.It one. Then I decide for myself. Which is also part of the reason I keep my modship.
Dont we all? Any games player first and foremost just plays the game . Anyone looking around for things to complain about Jagex doesnt strike me as a games player, it sounds like they are looking for someone to give them excuses to complain about things instead of just playing the game.

Then explain how I'm taking the same stance that I was before that came out? Purpose over status, that's still my stance. But now I'm beginning to think I'm disagreeing with your interpretation as the Jagex article. Perhaps if you stopped presenting your opinion as Jagex' own words?
Because you wont admit to yourself that its status over purpose? Your stance may not have changed but considering how youve already admitted youre no good without the crown and that you wanted to be a pmod because its not a negative thing to do pretty much sum up your own attitude towards pmod. It not only makes you look bad but it does show youre scraping around looking for ideas as to why you wanted pmod in the first place so we have everything but the truth on the matter.

You can disagree all you want with the Jagex article and my interpretation of it all you want. I know its rattled a lot of cages during this debate, more so because no-one saw it coming or the implications it has regarding future pmods and in particular the selection process of older pmods via reporting. Hence the more denials the better it looks for my case.

So you say. I and others seem to have a different view.
If they thought the old pmods were crap, how would you want them to tell you?

No, not at all. Your words are not mine.
Let's put it this way, and I guarantee that this comparison will not have the effect I want it to have, but can you play the game from a different computer than you uselly use? Yes, easily, maybe even better. But you still use yours. That's the kind of thing I have here. The game is fine without modship, but I'm used to it at this point. And there aren't many cons for keeping it as opposed to getting rid of it.
You said True but the perks were worth it. This means you agreed with my statement and these were YOUR words. You keep it because you like these perks of being a pmod. How else would anyone view such an answer? Keeping hold of your pmod because you are used to it is a ridiculous answer to make along with its not a negative thing..... Are you actually reading your own answers in this debate?

At that time.
And why be a pmod? Because it doesn't affect the game negatively. I still used it to help others when I took a break from the community, and the cons of having it were insignificant.
Lmfao. What sort of answer is 'doesnt affect the game negatively'?? Oo I want to be a pmod so I don't affect the game negatively!!!!! :razz:. You couldn't think of an answer, without it being about the status could you? After all you don't need the crown to help others so you have nothing left. Above is your previous answer admitting your weakness without it. Sorry, but your case for it not being about the status is pretty thin.

I don't remember admitting it, I remember you admitting it for me. Not the same thing.
It should have been fairly obvious what I meant, but judging by your response I'm guessing you prefer a sarcastic and easy to beat answer than the real one... Which seems to fit with the rest of your posts.
Lmao. You make statements and then you say But Jrhairychest said that not me.... Read your own words and responses in this debate. I didnt stand over you and make you type out agreements and comments. You did. Its completely childish to make your sort of statement. Take some responsibility for your own posts instead of blaming me for the answers you put.

I'm not a people person, unless people are fawning over me? What?
The reason I'm not a people person is because I don't like being fawned over. But then, it's much easier to make something up than answer the actual point.
So now youre saying Ive made this up? Lets make it simple You stated that you didnt get involved with your community up until recently where you say now you do. It doesnt take much to work out this was said to make your case more appealing in this debate. You also state above youre not a people person. So why keep the modship unless you want people to know youre a pmod? And why do you want them to know youre a pmod? So they can fawn or be told by the pmod.

Improvising is great.
Yes its very evident youre fond of this practice.

Actually the reason I called you on it is because you spent so much time calling me on missing her posts instead of arguing. It's one thing to miss a post, it's another to do so after yelling at someone else for doing it. And there really is no way for you to deny that you just did that.
Is there a problem with doing a round-up and asking you to answer questions that needed answering? How does my one post equate to your many, or is this your entire case?

These are your posts I'm using remember? Considering you say I've 'dug' up a 'few' posts you seem quite compelled to respond much more heavily when I'm pointing out your contradictions. Fantastic!
Ah, but that makes you guilty of Quote mining, or if you don't want a wiki answer you can check out the sources that just happen to say the same thing with more words.
Awww are you a little upset because your own posts are being used against you? Its called using evidence to support my case. In your case its showing where your story changes to suit and the things you have said yourself and things you say but then deny. Thats just the trouble, Im providing evidence and you arent. Besides, youre complaining a lot in this post about different things quote mining, me making you write your answers under duress, me using sarcasm, asking you to actually prove things with hard evidence and me using Jagex evidence. Lots of complaining but no real facts have you?

But as I will say below, I didn't want to post it here because I figured something like that would happen.
Between yourself and sees_all1 it doesnt do the pmod community any favours without the honesty and the pathetic cheap shot. Silver lining though as it shows the attitudes of pmods and those who follow them. Considering you complain about my attitude its quite amusing that you dont when someone goes in your favour.

Which was part of the reason I didn't want to post it here, because people here are probably going to have read this thread. But as I said, it was your idea, so why not actually post where I failed to do so?
Another Jrhairychest told me to do it...... If you think that youll get the answers you seek by not answering questions honestly and allowing those on your thread to post in that manner, go right ahead. =)
I didnt need to post, but you obviously felt the need to. Now if you were so sure of your original arguments, why go around looking for the answers you seek?

Alg · November 1, 2009

If what you say is true, youd have stacks of evidence to prove this. Where is your evidence that all this community work was going on? Just because your join date specifies when you joined the forums, this does not prove you were actively doing anything in terms of community work. Evidence please.
Ah, so a thread about pmod events dated before your Jagex post is still not evidence? What are you looking for? Proof that every pmod was always involved with the community before this year? It doesn't seem to be enough that pmods have been members of the community for years, doesn't it?
Hang out in any of Tip.It's clan chats for more than an hour. Ask the pmods in there how long they've been members of the community. Of course knowing you you'd ignore them and say that it didn't prove anything or you'd assume they're lying, but...

Thats up to you how you prove it. The trouble is we both know there will only be a small % of pmods on TET or indeed anything else as active community members. This doesnt account for the rest and certainly nothing has accounted for any community efforts in days gone by.
It'd be much easier if RSOF threads lasted more than a month in advance and have no indicator of who's a pmod then. Plus I'm not sure what you'll take, as a small number of pmods working in the community means nothing and most forum rules forbid mentioning large groups of pmods as such.

There seems to be a lot of you say this but Jagex says that in this debate doesnt there? Doesnt this bring anything to light yet?
That I don't have the same opinions as they do?

So you cannot even admit even he says Jagex have done some good things, which was my point? I've had a good look at the site. This, together with what you think about Jagex, perfectly sums up where you get half your ideas from regarding Jagex being so bad. I love the fact that you cry about them on the one hand, but won't give up your modship or quit the game in the other. Priceless stuff.
Yeah, you clearly don't read much of it. Many of the threads are about game help or analysis. Though it should be expected that you'd go with a stereotype in this case.
Yeah, they've done good things, I'm not denying that, I am denying that they haven't made serious mistakes. And considering your fondness for quote mining I shouldn't be surprised that you completely ignore the "and some for the worse".

Dont we all? Any games player first and foremost just plays the game . Anyone looking around for things to complain about Jagex doesnt strike me as a games player, it sounds like they are looking for someone to give them excuses to complain about things instead of just playing the game.
Considering this thread is you complaining about pmods...

Because you wont admit to yourself that its status over purpose? Your stance may not have changed but considering how youve already admitted youre no good without the crown and that you wanted to be a pmod because its not a negative thing to do pretty much sum up your own attitude towards pmod. It not only makes you look bad but it does show youre scraping around looking for ideas as to why you wanted pmod in the first place so we have everything but the truth on the matter.
Casual? I'm not a serious person usually, my casual attitude towards modding should reflect that, and it has shocked quite a few players. Sound like a status seeker?
And the sole reason I have to look is because you would not believe the reasons I had given and so encouraged me to find new ones. I'm just playing along at this point.

You can disagree all you want with the Jagex article and my interpretation of it all you want. I know its rattled a lot of cages during this debate, more so because no-one saw it coming or the implications it has regarding future pmods and in particular the selection process of older pmods via reporting. Hence the more denials the better it looks for my case.
Denying your point of view is not the same as denying the article. And if there are denials towards your analysis it just means that your analysis is not perfect.

If they thought the old pmods were crap, how would you want them to tell you?
A statement about how they want to broaden their search without removing their current team just seems like the opposite way of doing that.

You said True but the perks were worth it. This means you agreed with my statement and these were YOUR words. You keep it because you like these perks of being a pmod. How else would anyone view such an answer? Keeping hold of your pmod because you are used to it is a ridiculous answer to make along with its not a negative thing..... Are you actually reading your own answers in this debate?
Yes, but it seems differently than you are. The perks are worth taking in spite of any harassment the crown might attract? Since it also isn't harming my gameplay so it isn't worth getting rid of? That isn't too absurd, is it?

Lmao. You make statements and then you say But Jrhairychest said that not me.... Read your own words and responses in this debate. I didnt stand over you and make you type out agreements and comments. You did. Its completely childish to make your sort of statement. Take some responsibility for your own posts instead of blaming me for the answers you put.
But I can, in fact, blame you for quote mining to make your case look stronger. I made the posts, you analyse them, I disagree with your analysis. It isn't childish to debate, it is to call me for disagreeing with your analysis.

So now youre saying Ive made this up? Lets make it simple You stated that you didnt get involved with your community up until recently where you say now you do. It doesnt take much to work out this was said to make your case more appealing in this debate. You also state above youre not a people person. So why keep the modship unless you want people to know youre a pmod? And why do you want them to know youre a pmod? So they can fawn or be told by the pmod.
You seem to have missed the many times where I stated that I was a part of the community long before as well. And if I'm not a people person logic would dictate that I don't go around flashing the crown as a status symbol because that would attract attention that I don't want. Therefore I would keep modship because of the role that comes with it, because at the time I could do it without being a people person, and now I can just stay active in the community as I have been, because "community involvement" is a vague term.

Is there a problem with doing a round-up and asking you to answer questions that needed answering? How does my one post equate to your many, or is this your entire case?
But it was not you that came out with those points. It was Erewhon2. All you did was answer my answers to her post.

These are your posts I'm using remember? Considering you say I've 'dug' up a 'few' posts you seem quite compelled to respond much more heavily when I'm pointing out your contradictions. Fantastic!
Once again, quote mining. The act of quoting out of context to add evidence to your point.

Awww are you a little upset because your own posts are being used against you? Its called using evidence to support my case. In your case its showing where your story changes to suit and the things you have said yourself and things you say but then deny. Thats just the trouble, Im providing evidence and you arent. Besides, youre complaining a lot in this post about different things quote mining, me making you write your answers under duress, me using sarcasm, asking you to actually prove things with hard evidence and me using Jagex evidence. Lots of complaining but no real facts have you?
The evidence that supports you ignoring evidence and links continues to grow. If you truly read the link I provided, you would not be claiming that you have as much evidence from my own posts, as they aren't given with any context. This is also supported by your use of the term "Rule with an iron fist" from the Jagex thread as a reference to pmods when in contect Jagex uses the pronoun "We".
Plus I never complained about sarcasm, because I used sarcasm.

Between yourself and sees_all1 it doesnt do the pmod community any favours without the honesty and the pathetic cheap shot. Silver lining though as it shows the attitudes of pmods and those who follow them. Considering you complain about my attitude its quite amusing that you dont when someone goes in your favour.
Cheap shot? Where? I was honest when I said that posting it was your idea, you can look through your own posts to see where you suggested it.
Furthermore, does my "dishonesty" in that thread change any of the answers? No, it only matters because it can give you an easy way to disregard my evidence.

Another Jrhairychest told me to do it...... If you think that youll get the answers you seek by not answering questions honestly and allowing those on your thread to post in that manner, go right ahead. =)
I didnt need to post, but you obviously felt the need to. Now if you were so sure of your original arguments, why go around looking for the answers you seek?
In an earlier post you did say that you would post on that thread though:
"Interesting, though you should have answered elucin8tor a little more honestly. Ill come in when the times appropriate."
I like to call it looking for evidence. It helps to have some since you seem to want so much.

Plus a bit of bonus content:

[hide]

Hello, Im Mod Hohbein. Ive been a member of the RuneScape Community Management team for a few years and, in this blog entry, Im going to talk to you about one of the core areas the Community Management team focus on, which, notoriously, weve always been quite secretive about: no, not coffee to milk ratios; volunteer moderators.
Now, in the past they were very secretive about mods. Remember that.

Most people reading this will think they have a good idea of what a moderator is and what we want from our moderators. They report people, mute people, and generally stop rule breaking in-game and on the forums, right?
Think is the key word here. This is the popular conception of what a moderator does, which spread easily when considering that they were secretive about what they really wanted.

Not quite! Weve changed our focus and, now, instead of focussing mainly on reporting things to us, our moderators are concentrating on getting involved in the community and encouraging other players to do the same. Weve always made it clear that theyre players first, moderators second, and this change in direction will really emphasise that. The RuneScape community is made up of an incredibly creative, vibrant bunch of people who belong to all sorts of sub-communities. Rather than trying to rule these communities with an iron fist, we want to encourage them, and encourage players to join them, and well be doing that with the help of our moderators.
Jagex wants to encourage community growth rather than control it, as they use the pronoun "we" when they mention communities, and they are using their moderators to further this goal. Plus, they state openly that they always seen moderators as "players first, moderators second", and so their change will emphasize their stance in this matter.

Moderators are, of course, still able to escalate dodgy situations straight to us. This combined with their silver crown means that theyre able to deter and help remove rule breakers from the game in a flash, which is unquestionably important. Later in this blog, well talk about growing the mod community, and this is something that will really help reduce the amount of reporting that moderators have to do, allowing them to focus much more on community involvement.
This point is important: They are keeping the rule-based portion of the role in because it's "unquestionably important" to them. This is why throughout the earlier posts I had been saying that not much will change. Mods have been involved with the communities for a long time, but now they have Jagex's approval on it, and there will still be a rule enforcement role.

Going from a team of several thousand moderators whove always been asked to concentrate on reporting things, to a team who focus more on community involvement, is no small task. In doing so, weve looked at two key areas:
You cannot interpret this point in extremes. Concentrating on reporting things can go hand in hand with the "moderators second" portion of their stance, except that the change involves the "players first" section. If this is interpreted in extremes Jagex has contradicted itself in its post, because they say "Players first, Moderators second".

Current mods

Weve been working with our moderator communities to help them step away from the moderating the community approach and towards encouraging greater community involvement. Weve done this by offering re-written guidance, putting much less emphasis on excessive reporting, and making sure our moderators are given all of the support they need via our moderator only forums.
This outlines their change for current moderators.

Naturally, its taken some getting used to after years of fairly rigid reporting procedures, but Im happy to say were getting there thanks to the incredibly adaptable, passionate people we have among our two moderator communities.
And this is why I said I was still using the old role at that time. Because even they admit that it would take getting used to. Plus, they throw in a compliment for their moderator community. Such an unlikely way of saying "You're crap", isn't it?

Future mods

Up until recently, one of the main criteria wed look for when inviting moderators would be how many reports theyve sent and how good those reports were. This had to change as, although weve found some absolutely brilliant players using these criteria in the past, given our new focus, we stand a better chance of finding suitable players if we look more broadly at the RS community. There are so many like-minded players who hook up together and build communities, so it made sense for us to look in those. Weve started to look at clans, fansites, role-players, high-level players (both F2P and member), community minded forum users, regular events organisers and many other communities for the people who have got what it takes to help move our moderating teams in the right direction. Going back to the beginning of this blog entry, I spoke about the creative, vibrant people we have playing RuneScape. These are the people who can help us change the focus of the moderating community, so these are the people well be inviting to help us do just that.
They changed from a reporting-based role to a community based one, so after helping their current team of moderators selected partially on their reports "Key phrase is "one of" when they refer to their main criteria) they will look into community minded players to help with their planned community role.
Yet this thread says nothing to deny that moderators were not involved with communities before, just that they would stand a better chance of integrating with communities by looking to those communities they plan to reach out to for their mods. Which is a big change in Jagex's stance as a whole because previously there was no acknowledgment of communities and currently they are openly supporting them.

By changing who were looking for, we havent forgotten the importance of how were looking for them. Were still looking for players with incredibly secure accounts, players who havent been persistently breaking rules or been horrible to others, and players who have shown absolute dedication to RuneScape and the communities they belong to. To make sure were selecting the best players, every moderator we choose is put through a strict selection process involving five teams here at Jagex, and only those we feel would genuinely make great additions to the team are invited. We really want to make sure this change in focus doesnt have any impact on the quality of the moderators we invite.
Here they outline their other main criteria, which remains unchanged. Note how they describe "players who have shown absolute dedication to RuneScape and the communities they belong to" and their use of "still", meaning that before they also looked at these factors. The change with the communities is that they are looking broader now than their official forums, and to other communities.

After we had established what we were looking for, the next step was to start looking. We recently started a big push on moderator recruitment and were bringing two extra people into the CM team to help us do so. This push will continue for months to come, until weve bolstered our numbers and feel confident that our moderating communities can really have a much more positive impact on the RuneScape community as a whole, both in terms of encouraging involvement in the RS community and in removing rule breakers before they have a chance to do any damage.
This outlines Jagex's changes to accomodate their plans. They grew the section devoted to moderator recruitment as a result of the much broader area in which they are now looking.
Also important is the last sentence: There is still a portion of rule enforcement.

Its still relatively early days and theres loads of work to be done. We are, however, completely confident that this is a big step in the right direction. Weve always hated the bad press moderators often receive, and this change will not only empower our moderators to let their hair down, have more fun and get more involved with our players, but, over time, itll change the perception players have of moderators altogether.
Their plans for the future include changing the perceptions of moderators from a secretive police force to normal players. Also included is an encouragement for current moderators to get involved.

[/hide]

stonewall337 · November 1, 2009

Status. Most of them I have met are either rude, or useless. There are some good p mods, such as ALG from what I have seen, but mostly it appears to be a status symbol.

November 2, 2009

Ah, so a thread about pmod events dated before your Jagex post is still not evidence? What are you looking for? Proof that every pmod was always involved with the community before this year? It doesn't seem to be enough that pmods have been members of the community for years, doesn't it?
Hang out in any of Tip.It's clan chats for more than an hour. Ask the pmods in there how long they've been members of the community. Of course knowing you you'd ignore them and say that it didn't prove anything or you'd assume they're lying, but...
Your evidence is an idea of one and its recent and according to Jagex a new idea so dont act as if it was a constant thing going on for years. Where is all this you speak of about pmods being involved in the community for years? Their threads would still be active if they posted and it should be regular posting. Where is the rest of this evidence? Its up to you to provide this forum with hard evidence. Trouble is I know you dont have it and this crap about pmods being community members for years is a load of bull. Again, give me the evidence to support your claims. If you cant then dont harp on that you do.

It'd be much easier if RSOF threads lasted more than a month in advance and have no indicator of who's a pmod then. Plus I'm not sure what you'll take, as a small number of pmods working in the community means nothing and most forum rules forbid mentioning large groups of pmods as such.
You know as well as I do pmods havent been engaged in the community. If they were youd be giving me lots of posts about it or other evidence by now. You havent because you dont have any evidence.

That I don't have the same opinions as they do?
They run a multi-million pound business. Id say they know a lot more about things than you do. Thats why they are successful and being involved with a game they and most players love, while you sit there at your computer talking about how bad they are.

Yeah, you clearly don't read much of it. Many of the threads are about game help or analysis. Though it should be expected that you'd go with a stereotype in this case.
Yeah, they've done good things, I'm not denying that, I am denying that they haven't made serious mistakes. And considering your fondness for quote mining I shouldn't be surprised that you completely ignore the "and some for the worse".
I dont need to get involved with those types of websites. Ill stick with playing the game and leave those things to yourself and others who on the one hand complain, but strangely neglect to cancel their memberships. I put you in this bracket. Constantly whinging but wont do anything about it except sit there and complain.

Jagex have made some mistakes. Theyll learn from it and are learning from it (pmod update being a perfect example). I just dont feel the need to sit there and constantly criticise them for it. If I did, Id know it was time to quit and move on to another game.

Considering this thread is you complaining about pmods...
Two things stand out. Newer players who dont report to get status get my thumbs up and if you hadnt noticed yet, Jagex are changing it =)

Because you wont admit to yourself that its status over purpose? Your stance may not have changed but considering how youve already admitted youre no good without the crown and that you wanted to be a pmod because its not a negative thing to do pretty much sum up your own attitude towards pmod. It not only makes you look bad but it does show youre scraping around looking for ideas as to why you wanted pmod in the first place so we have everything but the truth on the matter.
Casual? I'm not a serious person usually, my casual attitude towards modding should reflect that, and it has shocked quite a few players. Sound like a status seeker?
And the sole reason I have to look is because you would not believe the reasons I had given and so encouraged me to find new ones. I'm just playing along at this point.
Sorry but you just completely skipped my last point unless it was something you didnt want to hear. As Erewhon2 pointed out are you sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting cant hear you!!. Oh and pretending to be casual just doesnt wash. If that was the case youd have demoded ages ago to prove it didnt matter. Feel free to play along, Im very happy to have you here.

Denying your point of view is not the same as denying the article. And if there are denials towards your analysis it just means that your analysis is not perfect.
Oh really? I dont see large amounts of pmods denying the article on here except....you. Obviously another case of you seeing what you want to see rather than the truth again.

A statement about how they want to broaden their search without removing their current team just seems like the opposite way of doing that.
Answer the question. If they thought the old pmods were crap, how would you want them to tell you?

Yes, but it seems differently than you are. The perks are worth taking in spite of any harassment the crown might attract? Since it also isn't harming my gameplay so it isn't worth getting rid of? That isn't too absurd, is it?
I said :
You said True but the perks were worth it. This means you agreed with my statement and these were YOUR words. You keep it because you like these perks of being a pmod. How else would anyone view such an answer? Keeping hold of your pmod because you are used to it is a ridiculous answer to make along with its not a negative thing..... Are you actually reading your own answers in this debate?
You havent answered this statement properly. What you said didnt constitute harassment but about going for the crown as it wasnt a negative thing and about your own attitude to being without it. Now youre saying you dont need to get rid of it because it doesnt affect your gameplay. Again we have this skipping around my points by using completely ridiculous statements because if you put down your real reasons wed finally have the truth.

But I can, in fact, blame you for quote mining to make your case look stronger. I made the posts, you analyse them, I disagree with your analysis. It isn't childish to debate, it is to call me for disagreeing with your analysis.
Lmfao. How childish are you? To blame me for using your quotes is blaming me because you wrote the things in the first place then complain when youre called on it. Its also pretty pathetic to state Im not childish you are because youre calling me on things that Ive written then changed my story on. You play the blame game and be all defensive by all means. It just shows your arguments in this debate amount to nothing.

You seem to have missed the many times where I stated that I was a part of the community long before as well. And if I'm not a people person logic would dictate that I don't go around flashing the crown as a status symbol because that would attract attention that I don't want. Therefore I would keep modship because of the role that comes with it, because at the time I could do it without being a people person, and now I can just stay active in the community as I have been, because "community involvement" is a vague term.
No you wasnt. You denied to being a part of any community, then only recently changed your mind. Logic also dictates that if you were so against the attention the crown gave you youd have demodded by now, so to say you didnt want the attention on one hand but then talk about perks and flash it when youre in gunslinger mode doesnt wash.

Lmfao vague term. This gets better. So this is to state that you were a part of a community in your terms i.e. a few friends on your friends list or AD Busters chat. Give me a break, you denied any form of community involvement (stated by yourself) so its not going to go away.

But it was not you that came out with those points. It was Erewhon2. All you did was answer my answers to her post.
Ok Ill do you a deal. Id like you to take up all of Erewhon2s posts that you didnt answer, and answer each of them. Ill then answer yours. Deal?

Once again, quote mining. The act of quoting out of context to add evidence to your point.
Once again, defensive because youve got no argument or evidence.

The evidence that supports you ignoring evidence and links continues to grow. If you truly read the link I provided, you would not be claiming that you have as much evidence from my own posts, as they aren't given with any context. This is also supported by your use of the term "Rule with an iron fist" from the Jagex thread as a reference to pmods when in contect Jagex uses the pronoun "We".
Plus I never complained about sarcasm, because I used sarcasm.
Lmfao. PROVE YOUR EVIDENCE. You cant. You have none. Now I know you cant because youd have proved it long ago if you did. And yes, it bothers you that Jagex arent wanting you to rule with the iron fist anymore doesnt it?

Cheap shot? Where? I was honest when I said that posting it was your idea, you can look through your own posts to see where you suggested it.
Furthermore, does my "dishonesty" in that thread change any of the answers? No, it only matters because it can give you an easy way to disregard my evidence.
sees_all1 was the cheap shot but then do I expect anything else from pmod supporters? You were dishonest as you lied by omission. I aint complaining though. You can show yourselves in the light you see fit so people who read this thread can make up their own minds.

If you can consider that thread to be any evidence Id love to see it, because already theres posts about WBMs and status come up already. Again you're complaining that I disregard your evidence instead of coming up with evidence that I cannot disregard.

I like to call it looking for evidence. It helps to have some since you seem to want so much.
Try getting some. It does wonders for your points in debate. Ill wait until it gets some more posts then Ill see what happens.

Plus a bit of bonus content:

Hello, Im Mod Hohbein. Ive been a member of the RuneScape Community Management team for a few years and, in this blog entry, Im going to talk to you about one of the core areas the Community Management team focus on, which, notoriously, weve always been quite secretive about: no, not coffee to milk ratios; volunteer moderators.
Now, in the past they were very secretive about mods. Remember that.
Agreed

Most people reading this will think they have a good idea of what a moderator is and what we want from our moderators. They report people, mute people, and generally stop rule breaking in-game and on the forums, right?
Think is the key word here. This is the popular conception of what a moderator does, which spread easily when considering that they were secretive about what they really wanted.
Jrhairychest was pretty close to mark before this came out wasnt he? Oh yes, local_guy said he only sent in a handful of reports to get pmod status lmfao.

Not quite! Weve changed our focus and, now, instead of focussing mainly on reporting things to us, our moderators are concentrating on getting involved in the community and encouraging other players to do the same. Weve always made it clear that theyre players first, moderators second, and this change in direction will really emphasise that. The RuneScape community is made up of an incredibly creative, vibrant bunch of people who belong to all sorts of sub-communities. Rather than trying to rule these communities with an iron fist, we want to encourage them, and encourage players to join them, and well be doing that with the help of our moderators.
Jagex wants to encourage community growth rather than control it, as they use the pronoun "we" when they mention communities, and they are using their moderators to further this goal. Plus, they state openly that they always seen moderators as "players first, moderators second", and so their change will emphasize their stance in this matter.
I like the instead of focussing mainly on reporting things to us, our moderators are concentrating on getting involved in the community and encouraging other players to do the same. Something else you chose to deny as many were already involved in the community. It proved nicely what you and other pmods were really up to, with the stuff about your community involvement being complete crap. And I love it when that happens. Oh yes, and they want you to report less. Did we cover that?

Moderators are, of course, still able to escalate dodgy situations straight to us. This combined with their silver crown means that theyre able to deter and help remove rule breakers from the game in a flash, which is unquestionably important. Later in this blog, well talk about growing the mod community, and this is something that will really help reduce the amount of reporting that moderators have to do, allowing them to focus much more on community involvement.
This point is important: They are keeping the rule-based portion of the role in because it's "unquestionably important" to them. This is why throughout the earlier posts I had been saying that not much will change. Mods have been involved with the communities for a long time, but now they have Jagex's approval on it, and there will still be a rule enforcement role.
So you missed the bit that will help reduce the amount of reporting that moderators have to do, allowing them to focus on community involvement. Reports less, more community work. More parties, more CW, more Godwars, less I am the law!. Plus a growing mod community also means less exclusivity so the status becomes less. So that wont bother you or me =).

Going from a team of several thousand moderators whove always been asked to concentrate on reporting things, to a team who focus more on community involvement, is no small task. In doing so, weve looked at two key areas:
You cannot interpret this point in extremes. Concentrating on reporting things can go hand in hand with the "moderators second" portion of their stance, except that the change involves the "players first" section. If this is interpreted in extremes Jagex has contradicted itself in its post, because they say "Players first, Moderators second".
Ill interpret it the way I see it thanks. Youve been asked to concentrate on reporting in your old role and theres no denial of that. Its there in black and white so denying in any further just makes you look worse.
If youd been a player first youd be applying for pmod now via a resume instead of posting on here trying to defend yourself. You reported because you liked it and you wanted the status.

Current mods
Weve been working with our moderator communities to help them step away from the moderating the community approach and towards encouraging greater community involvement. Weve done this by offering re-written guidance, putting much less emphasis on excessive reporting, and making sure our moderators are given all of the support they need via our moderator only forums.
This outlines their change for current moderators.
Less control, less reporting and more getting involved. Its a complete turnaround from what you were doing before

Naturally, its taken some getting used to after years of fairly rigid reporting procedures, but Im happy to say were getting there thanks to the incredibly adaptable, passionate people we have among our two moderator communities.
And this is why I said I was still using the old role at that time. Because even they admit that it would take getting used to. Plus, they throw in a compliment for their moderator community. Such an unlikely way of saying "You're crap", isn't it?
This is one of your change of stories again. Why would you need to get used to a new system if youre already involved in the community? This would be second nature if youre already doing it so what youve said is a pack of lies regarding your community involvement.

If youre changing a system, you dont want to offend your current flock. Notice how its some really nice asskissing, even a little over the top? If I was Jagex, knowing the business Id lose, Id say the same thing. They were spot on in saying that for business reasons alone. Hey, if you dont want to believe it then thats up to you. I get the impression that you do believe some of it because youd have posted yeah Jr whatever but the fact that youre being so defensive about things indicate some doubts.

Future mods

Up until recently, one of the main criteria wed look for when inviting moderators would be how many reports theyve sent and how good those reports were. This had to change as, although weve found some absolutely brilliant players using these criteria in the past, given our new focus, we stand a better chance of finding suitable players if we look more broadly at the RS community. There are so many like-minded players who hook up together and build communities, so it made sense for us to look in those. Weve started to look at clans, fansites, role-players, high-level players (both F2P and member), community minded forum users, regular events organisers and many other communities for the people who have got what it takes to help move our moderating teams in the right direction. Going back to the beginning of this blog entry, I spoke about the creative, vibrant people we have playing RuneScape. These are the people who can help us change the focus of the moderating community, so these are the people well be inviting to help us do just that.
They changed from a reporting-based role to a community based one, so after helping their current team of moderators selected partially on their reports "Key phrase is "one of" when they refer to their main criteria) they will look into community minded players to help with their planned community role.
Yet this thread says nothing to deny that moderators were not involved with communities before, just that they would stand a better chance of integrating with communities by looking to those communities they plan to reach out to for their mods. Which is a big change in Jagex's stance as a whole because previously there was no acknowledgment of communities and currently they are openly supporting them.
We already know you were selected via the reports you sent in. This thread makes no claim that moderators were already involved in communities so if what you say is correct, then they wouldnt need to announce this was the new role and change it from what it was. It doesnt say our pmods were already involved in communities but were changing it anyway.

By changing who were looking for, we havent forgotten the importance of how were looking for them. Were still looking for players with incredibly secure accounts, players who havent been persistently breaking rules or been horrible to others, and players who have shown absolute dedication to RuneScape and the communities they belong to. To make sure were selecting the best players, every moderator we choose is put through a strict selection process involving five teams here at Jagex, and only those we feel would genuinely make great additions to the team are invited. We really want to make sure this change in focus doesnt have any impact on the quality of the moderators we invite.
Here they outline their other main criteria, which remains unchanged. Note how they describe "players who have shown absolute dedication to RuneScape and the communities they belong to" and their use of "still", meaning that before they also looked at these factors. The change with the communities is that they are looking broader now than their official forums, and to other communities.
Notice the first bit By changing who were looking for. Says a lot doesnt it? You dont change who you are looking for if what you have is good enough already. Logical. Obviously what they have is simply not what they want. Perhaps in times gone by this may have been so, but the old pmod is dead. Report hunting is gone and pmods who are actual players, who dont report much and who get involved with other players are now the order of the day.

After we had established what we were looking for, the next step was to start looking. We recently started a big push on moderator recruitment and were bringing two extra people into the CM team to help us do so. This push will continue for months to come, until weve bolstered our numbers and feel confident that our moderating communities can really have a much more positive impact on the RuneScape community as a whole, both in terms of encouraging involvement in the RS community and in removing rule breakers before they have a chance to do any damage.
This outlines Jagex's changes to accomodate their plans. They grew the section devoted to moderator recruitment as a result of the much broader area in which they are now looking.
Also important is the last sentence: There is still a portion of rule enforcement.
I would agree theyd have to. After all to swell the pmod community by thousands theres no other way.

You seem pretty big on the rule enforcement and stated it here a number of times. I get the impression this is something you dont want to let go of. Anyone can enforce rules, but your new approach is community involvement not rule enforcement, so lets make sure we stick by those guidelines shall we? Its not business as usual like it was before.

Its still relatively early days and theres loads of work to be done. We are, however, completely confident that this is a big step in the right direction. Weve always hated the bad press moderators often receive, and this change will not only empower our moderators to let their hair down, have more fun and get more involved with our players, but, over time, itll change the perception players have of moderators altogether.
Their plans for the future include changing the perceptions of moderators from a secretive police force to normal players. Also included is an encouragement for current moderators to get involved.
I agree. Instead of policing the community they should serve it. The old pmod way is dead and the game should be much better for it.
Why do current pmods need to be encouraged to get involved when youve said a sizeable portion are doing this anyway?

Alg · November 2, 2009

Your evidence is an idea of one and its recent and according to Jagex a new idea so dont act as if it was a constant thing going on for years. Where is all this you speak of about pmods being involved in the community for years? Their threads would still be active if they posted and it should be regular posting. Where is the rest of this evidence? Its up to you to provide this forum with hard evidence. Trouble is I know you dont have it and this crap about pmods being community members for years is a load of bull. Again, give me the evidence to support your claims. If you cant then dont harp on that you do.
As I have said many times, it is new for Jagex to encourage this. Remember that previously Jagex would not even allow mentions of fansites ingame or in the forums. Pmods as a group could not not advertise themselves as such on any forums, because that happens to be against the rules for most of them. The idea that individuals have been in the community is much more obvious to the point that one can only have not seen them if one was not in said communities.
As for threads, those pertaining to events are usually left to die after the events are over, and the RSOF as a whole is probably the worst place to look for old threads (The last events in the event forum are from two weeks ago. creative gameplay one month, and roleplaying just before September)
Now, if pmods being community members for years is a load of bull, how can you explain how so many have registered on fansites like this for years? What were they doing before? You require me to prove your statement false when you have given no evidence to support it (Specifically this statement). The burden of proof does not leave you forever after you prove one of your statements, you have to continue to prove them as you make them.

You know as well as I do pmods havent been engaged in the community. If they were youd be giving me lots of posts about it or other evidence by now. You havent because you dont have any evidence.
And yet you have provided just as much, if not less to support that pmods haven't been in the community. I gave several examples of pmods being members of the TET (The community event planners, dates back to 2006), running this site's clan chat channels (Especially the HYT chats), generally the community gathering spots and parties. You somehow counter that by asserting that the evidence doesn't count.

They run a multi-million pound business. Id say they know a lot more about things than you do. Thats why they are successful and being involved with a game they and most players love, while you sit there at your computer talking about how bad they are.
Being a multi-million pound business does not make them immune to criticism, nor does it make said criticism hold less weight. Yes, they can be successful, but that doesn't mean that they haven't made mistakes along the way. I, and it seems many others, just feel that we could get a higher quality product for our money.

I dont need to get involved with those types of websites. Ill stick with playing the game and leave those things to yourself and others who on the one hand complain, but strangely neglect to cancel their memberships. I put you in this bracket. Constantly whinging but wont do anything about it except sit there and complain.
Uh, you DO need to get involved wit them before you can make such claims though. As it is you come off as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Which also can apply to the PMod topic. I'm making these claims because I've been one, and so know how they work. Something you cannot claim because you refuse to even listen to them.

Jagex have made some mistakes. Theyll learn from it and are learning from it (pmod update being a perfect example). I just dont feel the need to sit there and constantly criticise them for it. If I did, Id know it was time to quit and move on to another game.
However, the existence of complaints means that the people paying for it feel that they can get a better product rather than just throw it away over a minor defect. You try to get the problem solved before abandoning it.

Two things stand out. Newer players who dont report to get status get my thumbs up and if you hadnt noticed yet, Jagex are changing it =)
Sorry but you just completely skipped my last point unless it was something you didnt want to hear. As Erewhon2 pointed out are you sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting cant hear you!!. Oh and pretending to be casual just doesnt wash. If that was the case youd have demoded ages ago to prove it didnt matter. Feel free to play along, Im very happy to have you here.
Really, why am I posting if you're going to accuse me of lying about each point that you don't agree with?
It'd work better for you if you actually attack the points rather than my alleged personality.

Oh really? I dont see large amounts of pmods denying the article on here except....you. Obviously another case of you seeing what you want to see rather than the truth again.
Being pretty much the only person still defending pmods, you're right... Yet somehow that's not very impressive seeing as there were only a handful of pmods that were on this thread to begin with, fewer of which addressed the article to begin with, usually to address a point of it that actually is on topic.

Answer the question. If they thought the old pmods were crap, how would you want them to tell you?
Through a more drastic change in the system, probably. If the pmods they got before were really that bad, why would they keep them on as their community face? It makes no sense to change the role but keep the people in it that caused the change, especially if the cause was that the people they did get just cared about their status more than other people.
Now if you don't mind, answer this statement:
A statement about how they want to broaden their search without removing their current team just seems like the opposite way of doing that.

I said :
You havent answered this statement properly. What you said didnt constitute harassment but about going for the crown as it wasnt a negative thing and about your own attitude to being without it. Now youre saying you dont need to get rid of it because it doesnt affect your gameplay. Again we have this skipping around my points by using completely ridiculous statements because if you put down your real reasons wed finally have the truth.
But regardless of what my real reasons are, you'd happily renounce them as lies because they don't seem to support your narrow view of pmods.
Lmfao. How childish are you? To blame me for using your quotes is blaming me because you wrote the things in the first place then complain when youre called on it. Its also pretty pathetic to state Im not childish you are because youre calling me on things that Ive written then changed my story on. You play the blame game and be all defensive by all means. It just shows your arguments in this debate amount to nothing.
I'm merely blaming you for using them without proper context. Which is entirely something that you have control over. Yes, I made them, but I did not just make those statements alone, nor did Jagex with the "iron fist" comment. Quoting just the parts that support you without the rest is something that I can blame you for.

No you wasnt. You denied to being a part of any community, then only recently changed your mind. Logic also dictates that if you were so against the attention the crown gave you youd have demodded by now, so to say you didnt want the attention on one hand but then talk about perks and flash it when youre in gunslinger mode doesnt wash.
Now, the part that I never mentioned was that I did consider it several times. I also don't like losing opportunities, and modship was one of those that would have flown away quickly had I done so.
Now, I'm sure I made more comments about the community far earlier, hence one of the flaws with quote mining... You get the ability to make completely baseless statements and as long as nobody cares to actually go back through the thread you're "right".

Lmfao vague term. This gets better. So this is to state that you were a part of a community in your terms i.e. a few friends on your friends list or AD Busters chat. Give me a break, you denied any form of community involvement (stated by yourself) so its not going to go away.
Really? I denied being a part of the moderator community at that time, though as I made the post here it would have been painfully obvious that I was a member of Tip.It then too, as well as Truthscape. And once again, those were not my terms, for I never went that far into detail about what communities I was a part of, those were yours, so once again you're caught blatantly making things up. Good job, you may have hit a record here.

Ok Ill do you a deal. Id like you to take up all of Erewhon2s posts that you didnt answer, and answer each of them. Ill then answer yours. Deal?
Hm, dig back a few months to find several posts so you can make just one that's at the top of the page...? Strangely in your favor, but I'll do what I can if I have time.

Once again, defensive because youve got no argument or evidence.
Then what does it say about you taking the time to attack me instead of my points?

Lmfao. PROVE YOUR EVIDENCE. You cant. You have none. Now I know you cant because youd have proved it long ago if you did. And yes, it bothers you that Jagex arent wanting you to rule with the iron fist anymore doesnt it?
Once again, "iron fist" in that article refers to Jagex, which is why they use "We".
How am I supposed to prove my evidence when you can't even seem to get yours right?

sees_all1 was the cheap shot but then do I expect anything else from pmod supporters? You were dishonest as you lied by omission. I aint complaining though. You can show yourselves in the light you see fit so people who read this thread can make up their own minds.
S/he said
"I think the response jr wanted was more along the lines of, "Our Old Pmods only wanted glory from themselves, and were being complete jerkbags, which is why we started taking applications off of wbm."", which actually is pretty consistent with what you've been saying for howeverlong we've been debating.
Now, couldn't you also call that a white lie that I'm using to benefit myself, or does that only work with million pound companies? I said I was just curious, which I actually am, I wanted to see what people thought, and the fact that it is vaguely related to this debate really isn't important. Quick question, how does me saying that nullify the responses that are clearly the opposite of what you wanted?

If you can consider that thread to be any evidence Id love to see it, because already theres posts about WBMs and status come up already. Again you're complaining that I disregard your evidence instead of coming up with evidence that I cannot disregard.
Disregarding evidence is quite different from disproving evidence. If you disprove a piece of evidence it doesn't count, if you disregard it you just ignored it.

Try getting some. It does wonders for your points in debate. Ill wait until it gets some more posts then Ill see what happens.
Working on it.

Jrhairychest was pretty close to mark before this came out wasnt he? Oh yes, local_guy said he only sent in a handful of reports to get pmod status lmfao.
Which just shows that you thought the popular conception was true, like most people.

I like the instead of focussing mainly on reporting things to us, our moderators are concentrating on getting involved in the community and encouraging other players to do the same. Something else you chose to deny as many were already involved in the community. It proved nicely what you and other pmods were really up to, with the stuff about your community involvement being complete crap. And I love it when that happens. Oh yes, and they want you to report less. Did we cover that?
Now, that contradicts another part of the article, "players first, moderators second". Players are free to get involved with the community, while as moderators they can help enforce the rules.

So you missed the bit that will help reduce the amount of reporting that moderators have to do, allowing them to focus on community involvement. Reports less, more community work. More parties, more CW, more Godwars, less I am the law!. Plus a growing mod community also means less exclusivity so the status becomes less. So that wont bother you or me =).
Good fun, all of it. Hopefully room for DKing too then.

Ill interpret it the way I see it thanks. Youve been asked to concentrate on reporting in your old role and theres no denial of that. Its there in black and white so denying in any further just makes you look worse.
If youd been a player first youd be applying for pmod now via a resume instead of posting on here trying to defend yourself. You reported because you liked it and you wanted the status.
However the evidence I'm using for my denial is on the same piece of evidence. They may have encouraged reporting but they also seem to encourage playing the game. Kind of like what they did for non-mod players, use the report system when you see a rulebreaker, don't go looking for them. And you're partially right that the old role of modding was just an expanded report feature. You probably know reporting though, takes about a minute at most to send one, and what do I do with the rest of my time?

Less control, less reporting and more getting involved. Its a complete turnaround from what you were doing before
Exactly.

This is one of your change of stories again. Why would you need to get used to a new system if youre already involved in the community? This would be second nature if youre already doing it so what youve said is a pack of lies regarding your community involvement.
Was it ever official before? The community involvement was no problem, the reporting bit was, especially since most people didn't know of the change and still called me to mute someone (Which most of the time I didn't).

If youre changing a system, you dont want to offend your current flock. Notice how its some really nice asskissing, even a little over the top? If I was Jagex, knowing the business Id lose, Id say the same thing. They were spot on in saying that for business reasons alone. Hey, if you dont want to believe it then thats up to you. I get the impression that you do believe some of it because youd have posted yeah Jr whatever but the fact that youre being so defensive about things indicate some doubts.
But if this is the exact opposite breed of player that they wanted, the kind that reported people for enjoyment and status, why would they keep them in a role that is now community focused?

We already know you were selected via the reports you sent in. This thread makes no claim that moderators were already involved in communities so if what you say is correct, then they wouldnt need to announce this was the new role and change it from what it was. It doesnt say our pmods were already involved in communities but were changing it anyway.
It does say "We're now acknowledging communities other than the RSOF and our mods are going to help with that" though.

Notice the first bit By changing who were looking for. Says a lot doesnt it? You dont change who you are looking for if what you have is good enough already. Logical. Obviously what they have is simply not what they want. Perhaps in times gone by this may have been so, but the old pmod is dead. Report hunting is gone and pmods who are actual players, who dont report much and who get involved with other players are now the order of the day.
Once again, your last statement contradicts it. Those are the players they already had, who are now their community face? If they were that bad such a thing would be suicidal. Yet they kept the players they found with the flawed system, and so it probaly wasn't as bad as you have been saying.
Though I do agree that it makes sense to look for community minded players for a community role.

You seem pretty big on the rule enforcement and stated it here a number of times. I get the impression this is something you dont want to let go of. Anyone can enforce rules, but your new approach is community involvement not rule enforcement, so lets make sure we stick by those guidelines shall we? Its not business as usual like it was before.[/color]
Three years of that does stick though.

I agree. Instead of policing the community they should serve it. The old pmod way is dead and the game should be much better for it.
Somehow though they kept a part of that way, as there's still a mute feature and still priority reports. I'd assume that they are still going to look partially at reports as they are keeping those features, as it wouldn't be bright to give those to players with no idea how to use them. Do they acknowledge that there are some cases where it's necessary, then?
Why do current pmods need to be encouraged to get involved when youve said a sizeable portion are doing this anyway?
Sizable isn't all. And it could be aimed at players that prefer solo gameplay as well.

November 10, 2009

Local_guy,

Since this debate has raged on its very evident that no matter what sort of evidence is put to you, it is pointless debating with you as you just dont get the fact things change for reasons. These reasons you seem unable to either comprehend or accept (or both). Thats your choice and if you want to take that approach then thats your business. If you need to stick with your crown because youre nothing without it then fine. Your reasons for keeping it were, well, pathetic, and Im being very polite about that as you didnt want to admit the truth. More to yourself I suspect than on here. I've seen no evidence to prove otherwise. Claiming many pmods were doing community stuff without any hard evidence was always going to be fruitless. In all honesty, I knew you couldn't prove it in the end, otherwise you'd have proven it long ago with some hard evidence, facts, figures etc.

To you, things are Jagex's fault because arent doing enough and no matter how they put it you just dont get the fact that they changed things for reasons outlined. If theyd have told you to your face that you were crap, youd still be in denial telling yourself they didnt really mean it. Nothing would have changed if the system had been good. It clearly wasnt so Jagex want new blood as in normal players. They dont want the likes of old pmods any more. Either accept that or continue in a state of what I can only describe as arrogant denial. You may actually have thought youve proven some sort of point when the only things you have proven is that you wont accept the reality of what has gone on or the reasons why you wanted to take pmod in the first place. Maybe what has really rattled your cage is that there are some who look into the why element of things and dared to question some elements that perhaps equate to a lack of confidence in players like yourself who need this badge to prove a point or just exist in the game, and perhaps some areas of real life where maybe some players arent happy being nobodies in real life so being a pmod makes them a something to compensate for it. This, we will never know as very few have enough balls to admit the truth. Im also sorry to say that in my eyes you have embarrassed the pmod community with many of your statements. The good news is that I do feel sorry for the few who do play the game well and try to do a good job.

We will never agree on such issues. Thats a good thing. Have your final say and we can leave it at that.

Alg · November 10, 2009

Final say, then?

Had they really thought the old team was crap, they would not have kept them, as upsetting those players would be far better than having those players as their community face, even with new faces solely for that purpose. It would be suicidal for them to have status seekers who report to further themselves in such a position, especially after all you have claimed that they have said, and that is why I deny your interpretation of their new stance.

Not much more I can say, really.

Erewhon2 · November 11, 2009

Final say, then?
Had they really thought the old team was crap, they would not have kept them, as upsetting those players would be far better than having those players as their community face, even with new faces solely for that purpose. It would be suicidal for them to have status seekers who report to further themselves in such a position, especially after all you have claimed that they have said, and that is why I deny your interpretation of their new stance.

Not much more I can say, really.

You're absolutely right.......there is nothing more you can say. I certainly have tried to get straight answers from you and have given up. So you carry on in your little bubble of self deceit, pretending that you are a Pmod because it doesn't harm the game (????) and that you are part of a non existent community, serving a "higher purpose" in a pretend role for a virtual game in a non existent, pretend world. :huh:

stonewall337 · December 5, 2009

P mods=status. Simple as that. They don't help much, from personal experience.

PMods - Purpose or Status?

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