Torture

[angryjoe]

Frankly, I don't care what happens to Israel as long as they occupy foreign lands not given to them. It's fair game as far as I see, if they take land which isn't theirs.

 

You are such a moron it is pretty unbelievable

[Gmesh]

When the hell is there a poor sod who's innocent?

 

 

 

Ever hear of a POW camp?...

 

 

 

I find your lack of empathy disgusting.

[Robert_de_Sable]

 

It is their land, you uneducated moron. They were attacked just for being there starting right from their independence.

 

 

 

If you believe this, then you sir are the undeucated idiot.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

[RichieMcD]

Frankly, I don't care what happens to Israel as long as they occupy foreign lands not given to them. It's fair game as far as I see, if they take land which isn't theirs.

 

You are such a moron it is pretty unbelievable

 

 

 

How so? I expressed my opinion, they're still occupying some lands taken in the '67 war. Until they return the land, I have no problem seeing them being attacked since they attacked those countries to take it.

 

 

 

Explain why I'm an idiot instead of just making a 1 line post, it's pretty hypocritical calling me a moron if that's all you state in an entire post.

[venomai]

Give me one. I want a good source, too.

 

"Murat Kurnaz spent five years as a detainee in the US military camp at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. He was wrongly identified as an accomplice of the Taliban and recently released."

 

 

 

[1], [2], [3]

 

 

 

Of course, there are many more like Kurnaz.

[RichieMcD]

Give me one. I want a good source, too.

 

"Murat Kurnaz spent five years as a detainee in the US military camp at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. He was wrongly identified as an accomplice of the Taliban and recently released."

 

 

 

[1], [2], [3]

 

 

 

Of course, there are many more like Kurnaz.

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, Mozzam Begg being another, he wrote quite a lot about it in his biography and the events leading up to it.

 

 

 

If you consider a military trial done by US servicemen who are trying him for "terrorism" a fair trial Robert, then you are nothing more than an "uneducated moron" yourself.

[Necrobean]

I hope you get tortured.

 

 

 

That is my opinion. I have no sources for a good reason.

[angryjoe]

Frankly, I don't care what happens to Israel as long as they occupy foreign lands not given to them. It's fair game as far as I see, if they take land which isn't theirs.

 

You are such a moron it is pretty unbelievable

 

 

 

How so? I expressed my opinion, they're still occupying some lands taken in the '67 war. Until they return the land, I have no problem seeing them being attacked since they attacked those countries to take it.

 

 

 

Explain why I'm an idiot instead of just making a 1 line post, it's pretty hypocritical calling me a moron if that's all you state in an entire post.

 

You say it like every [bleep]ing person in Isreal deserves to be attacked...majority of people in Isreal, palestine etc probably don't give two [cabbage]s and just want to live in peace and get on with their lives and you are condoning another country being attack you are an absolute dippy [bleep]. Yes the govt of Israel seems pretty horrible and Israel has done some horrible things but the people that will always lose out in conflicts are the innocent [bleep]ing people that just want to live a normal [bleep]ing life and there are cretins like you saying you dont care what happens to them. Get a [bleep]ing grip you sad little gobby [cabbage][bleep].

[RichieMcD]

Frankly, I don't care what happens to Israel as long as they occupy foreign lands not given to them. It's fair game as far as I see, if they take land which isn't theirs.

 

You are such a moron it is pretty unbelievable

 

 

 

How so? I expressed my opinion, they're still occupying some lands taken in the '67 war. Until they return the land, I have no problem seeing them being attacked since they attacked those countries to take it.

 

 

 

Explain why I'm an idiot instead of just making a 1 line post, it's pretty hypocritical calling me a moron if that's all you state in an entire post.

 

You say it like every [bleep] person in Isreal deserves to be attacked...majority of people in Isreal, palestine etc probably don't give two [cabbage] and just want to live in peace and get on with their lives and you are condoning another country being attack you are an absolute dippy [bleep]. Yes the govt of Israel seems pretty horrible and Israel has done some horrible things but the people that will always lose out in conflicts are the innocent [bleep] people that just want to live a normal [bleep] life and there are cretins like you saying you dont care what happens to them. Get a [bleep] grip you sad little gobby [cabbage].

 

 

 

Calm down, no reason to make a show of yourself.

 

 

 

I would never wish for an innocent civilian to be hurt, I don't say it like every person in Israel deserves to be attacked. I'd never condone an Israeli or a Palestinian citizen being hurt, but I could never care for what happens to a member of the IDF. As far as I'm concerned, the IDF are scum and nothing more, Hamas are the same though. It's not Israel citizens who are causing the most hate or conflict in occupied zones, it's the IDF.

 

 

 

I'll try to be more clear next time if it stops you getting so easily worked up. "Get a grip", rather hypocritical though, by your response I wouldn't be surprised if you're shedding a couple of tears right now. It's the internet, stop taking it so seriously.

[Robert_de_Sable]

Everyone in Israel has to serve in the IDF. It's not a choice.

[angryjoe]

[

 

Calm down, no reason to make a show of yourself.

 

 

 

I would never wish for an innocent civilian to be hurt, I don't say it like every person in Israel deserves to be attacked. I'd never condone an Israeli or a Palestinian citizen being hurt, but I could never care for what happens to a member of the IDF. As far as I'm concerned, the IDF are scum and nothing more, Hamas are the same though. It's not Israel citizens who are causing the most hate or conflict in occupied zones, it's the IDF.

 

 

 

I'll try to be more clear next time if it stops you getting so easily worked up. "Get a grip", rather hypocritical though, by your response I wouldn't be surprised if you're shedding a couple of tears right now. It's the internet, stop taking it so seriously.

 

Well when you say you don't care what happens to Israel, it kind of insinuates the country as a whole. You should have said the IDF in the first place. But still, the majority of people in the IDF are probably just normal blokes that are doing a job that is reasonably well paid and are trying to provide for a family and following their orders.

 

 

 

Stop taking the internet so seriously? Ffs, does someone have to post a completely calm response everytime a cretin like you makes such an ignorant statement? Read most of my posts, hardly any are serious tbh, but you are such a [bleep]ing dimwit that I felt I had to say something. The thing is, most of the moronic people on here I can just ignore because while they are stupid, they don't have the same absurd sense of self-superiority that you appear to have.

 

 

 

I hope you feel special. :thumbup:

[Bloodstain]

Ugh, there was a topic about this on zybez by some uninformed teenager who thought torture is some sort of magical way to get information and that every at gitmo is a terrorist. So I'm going to copy and paste a lot

 

 

 

 

 

5% of Gitmo detainees are actually caught by the USA

 

 

 

86% are turned in by an Afghan or Pakistani citizen for a reward. Seems like a good way to get rid of enemies and profit too.

 

 

 

Youngest detainee: 13

 

oldest: 98

 

 

 

Number of Trials completed under Military Commissions: 2

 

 

 

Pair that with the thing about people turning "terrorists" in for enough money to feed their entire village and family for the rest of their lives, and you have a lot of innocent people

 

 

 

http://www.closegitmo.com/

 

 

 

I also found a study that shows raport building is more effective that torture, but I haven't read through all of it yet. Here's the link if anyone's interested

 

 

 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h4q565424126068h

 

 

 

Plus this one where you can actually give people false memories

 

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/...sts-598003.html

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and this one

 

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8112802242.html

 

 

 

I know the counter-argument well -- that we need the rough stuff for the truly hard cases, such as battle-hardened core leaders of al-Qaeda, not just run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents. But that's not always true: We turned several hard cases, including some foreign fighters, by using our new techniques. A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate."

 

 

 

And the fact that anyone you're torturing WILL eventually give you information you want regardless if they are terrorists or not, just to stop the torture

 

[hide=]

 

 

 

[/hide]

 

Looky there, USA using methods they condemn other countries of! Man, USA sure is awesome, those terrorists are awful people who like to use torture! Wait a sec...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://hoosierinva.blogspot.com/2009/04 ... ss-of.html

 

 

 

As you can see, no evidence that torture actually works, and that rapport building is much more effective.

[Bloodstain]

And because the OP on zybez was a moron I did research for his side of the argument

 

 

"As many as 36 former Guantánamo detainees have taken part in violent acts against Western targets after their release, a Defense Intelligence Agency report said. Their violent acts raise the question of whether the men should have been released, but also whether their detention radicalized them."

 

 

 

In both his suicide tape and the chat room transcript, Mr. Ajmi describes the Americans desecration of the Koran and maltreatment of detainees, in what appears to have been an attempt to prod fellow Muslims to action. He said that detainees were beaten, given drugs and used for experiments.

 

 

 

The Americans delighted in insulting our prayer and Islam and they insulted the Koran and threw it in dirty places, he said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The American militarys account of the reasons for Mr. Ajmis detention and his behavior at Guantánamo depict a defiant, often silent prisoner, but there is no suggestion in available documents that he was involved with Al Qaeda at that time.

 

 

 

so the question here is, did the torture push him to become a suicide bomber in order to get back at the Americans and to encourage others to do so?

 

 

 

Another question: If you were taken by Al Qaeda and they tortured you, and then you were released or rescued or what ever, would you want to kill them? If USA tried the rapport building instead of torturing them, would this man have done what he did?

 

 

 

http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2008 ... 40407.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and being against torture doesn't mean that real terrorists shouldn't go unpunished, or that suspected terrorists shouldn't be investigated

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS: I have yet to see any evidence that torture is the most effective way of getting information

[RichieMcD]

[hide=quote]

[

 

Calm down, no reason to make a show of yourself.

 

 

 

I would never wish for an innocent civilian to be hurt, I don't say it like every person in Israel deserves to be attacked. I'd never condone an Israeli or a Palestinian citizen being hurt, but I could never care for what happens to a member of the IDF. As far as I'm concerned, the IDF are scum and nothing more, Hamas are the same though. It's not Israel citizens who are causing the most hate or conflict in occupied zones, it's the IDF.

 

 

 

I'll try to be more clear next time if it stops you getting so easily worked up. "Get a grip", rather hypocritical though, by your response I wouldn't be surprised if you're shedding a couple of tears right now. It's the internet, stop taking it so seriously.

[/hide]

 

Well when you say you don't care what happens to Israel, it kind of insinuates the country as a whole. You should have said the IDF in the first place. But still, the majority of people in the IDF are probably just normal blokes that are doing a job that is reasonably well paid and are trying to provide for a family and following their orders.

 

 

 

Stop taking the internet so seriously? Ffs, does someone have to post a completely calm response everytime a cretin like you makes such an ignorant statement? Read most of my posts, hardly any are serious tbh, but you are such a [bleep] dimwit that I felt I had to say something. The thing is, most of the moronic people on here I can just ignore because while they are stupid, they don't have the same absurd sense of self-superiority that you appear to have.

 

 

 

I hope you feel special. :thumbup:

 

 

 

I make one out-of-line post so I'm here-on a "[bleep]ing dimwit" and a "moron"? Damn, I'd hate to see the conclusions you jump to in real life, I don't have an air of self-superiority, I don't see any post by myself where I claim to be or portray me being above everyone else. Might as well PM me your next response, we've already spammed this thread enough.

 

 

 

Bloodstain, torture quite often isn't even reliable evidence. As shown throughout Roman times up until when torture stopped, a lot of "confessions" were simply nothing more than lies told so the torture would stop.

 

 

 

Apparently because of torture, a plot to destroy the largest building in Western America was uncovered, but is there any credible evidence other than the tortured person's confession? If I was a judge, I certainly wouldn't hold the confession of a tortured person in a high regard.

[Range_This11]

I hope you get tortured.

 

 

 

That is my opinion. I have no sources for a good reason.

 

I'm surprised no one quoted this yet, but I think it's absolutely hilarious. :thumbup:

 

 

 

I suspect Canada of terrorism. Robert, let's whisk you away to beautiful Guantanamo Bay.

 

 

 

And to the burden of proof dilemma, the burden lies on whoever disagrees with the opening post.

[assassin_696]

Bloodstain raises a good point, namely what are you trying to achieve with the torture? The jury is out as to how effective it is at getting information and yet your tone of voice seems to imply that you'd do it just to make 'em squeal, and all that pathetic macho crap. Terrorists are deplorable, no one is denying that. But once you start hammering their fingers just to see them scream what does that make you? A better human being?

 

 

 

No government should have the ability to torture, not only because you cannot guarantee that the man is guilty but also because you can't call yourself a civilised country one moment and then torture someone the next. It's too dangerous a power to give governments.

[Faitality]

Is this another of your social experiments, or are we meant to take you seriously this time?

[mmmcannibalism]

The main problem I see is that we throw a giant umbrella over everything and call it torture

 

 

 

any medieval stuff should of course be entirely illegal, things like waterboarding are a giant debate but lets be clear waterboarding

 

 

 

what annoys me is the idea that we shouldnt do anything besides asking polite questions, I see nothing wrong for instance with playing heavy metal to induce some sleep deprivation if there is valuble information that could be gained without causing permenant harm.

[venomai]

The main problem I see is that we throw a giant umbrella over everything and call it torture

 

 

 

any medieval stuff should of course be entirely illegal, things like waterboarding are a giant debate but lets be clear waterboarding

 

 

 

what annoys me is the idea that we shouldnt do anything besides asking polite questions, I see nothing wrong for instance with playing heavy metal to induce some sleep deprivation if there is valuble information that could be gained without causing permenant harm.

 

Torture of any kind has the potential to cause permanent psychological harm, and all techniques discussed inflict suffering and pain on the victim.

 

 

 

Sensory deprivation, albeit less physical, is no less barbaric and traumatizing than electric shock, waterboarding or other interrogation techniques.

 

 

 

If you aren't sure on why all of these techniques are considered "torture," read on...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

[Bloodstain]

The main problem I see is that we throw a giant umbrella over everything and call it torture

 

 

 

any medieval stuff should of course be entirely illegal, things like waterboarding are a giant debate but lets be clear waterboarding

 

 

 

what annoys me is the idea that we shouldnt do anything besides asking polite questions, I see nothing wrong for instance with playing heavy metal to induce some sleep deprivation if there is valuble information that could be gained without causing permenant harm.

 

 

 

I'm still awaiting hard empirical proof that torture is anywhere near effective at doing anything aside from getting fake confessions . Rapport building is effective, I've given you evidence for it.

[Lenin64]

Ask John McCain what he thinks of torture.

 

Well of course if you ask a guy who was tortured he'll say it's bad. That's kind of the point, they're not supposed to enjoy it.

[Giordano]

I'm all for torturing the terrorists behind 9/11 or murders or rapists, etc. But just because they're a suspect doesn't mean they're confirmed terrorists. Once we can prove they were guilty, fire away.

[mmmcannibalism]

I'm still awaiting hard empirical proof that torture is anywhere near effective at doing anything aside from getting fake confessions . Rapport building is effective, I've given you evidence for it.

 

 

 

well the Us wont release the documents that show evidence gained from torture, were too busy apologizing for waterboarding.(hate to bring something this political but its accurate)

 

 

 

More related, if non torture related methods are proven as more effective then of course we should abandon methods that are more objectionable if they arent better.

[Powman3]

We can solve problems without violence (sometimes).

 

 

 

It is not necessary to stoop to one's level to force information out of them.

[Bloodstain]

I'm still awaiting hard empirical proof that torture is anywhere near effective at doing anything aside from getting fake confessions . Rapport building is effective, I've given you evidence for it.

 

 

 

well the Us wont release the documents that show evidence gained from torture, were too busy apologizing for waterboarding.(hate to bring something this political but its accurate)

 

 

 

More related, if non torture related methods are proven as more effective then of course we should abandon methods that are more objectionable if they arent better.

 

 

 

If torture was effective it would be universally effective and there would already be lots of evidence and studies proving it to be effective, which there are none. But hey, USA USA USA! Git dem terrists good