Do you think animals are consciously aware they are living?

[Imalilranger]

its hard to explain but yeah....

 

 

 

And it has been proven that some animals run on instinct alone, but do you think that a goldfish knows its alive?

[Bloodstain]

Most animals (including cats and dogs) are not self aware. So no.

 

 

 

 

 

edit: Some of the animals that we consider to be quite social animals are thought to be self aware (bottle nose dolfins, certain apes, and elephants)

 

 

 

And some interesting stuff

 

 

Self-recognition, once thought to be an ability enjoyed only by select primates, has now been demonstrated in a bird.

 

 

 

The finding has raised questions about part of the brain called the neocortex, something the self-aware magpie does not even possess.

 

 

 

In humans, the ability to recognise oneself in a mirror develops around the age of 18 months and coincides with the first signs of social behaviour. So-called "mirror mark tests", where a mark is placed on the animal in such a way that it can only be observed when it looks at its reflection, have been used to sort the self-aware beasts from the rest.

 

 

 

Of hundreds tested, in addition to humans, only four apes, bottlenose dolphins and Asian elephantsMovie Camera have passed muster.

 

 

 

Helmut Prior at Goethe University in Frankfurt and his colleagues applied a red, yellow or black spot to a place on the necks of five magpies. The stickers could only be seen using a mirror. Then he gave the birds mirrors.

 

Catch a glimpse

 

 

 

The feel of the mark on their necks did not seem to alarm them. But when the birds with coloured neck spots caught a glimpse of themselves, they scratched at their necks - a clear indication that they recognised the image in the mirror as their own. Those who received a black sticker, invisible against the black neck feathers, did not react.

 

 

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... ad_dn14552

 

 

 

If you are interested in this stuff try taking at least intro psychology once you reach college (everyone should do this imo)

[Plugpoint]

"everyone should do this imo" - but not everyone has an interest in it so you'd have people in your class messing around. So maybe not such a great idea :P

 

Anyway, OT: I think they are, it's a bit difficult to explain... I think they sort of do know, because they can feel pain, but at the same time I don't think most animals are aware of death so maybe not.

[The Runar]

Depends on the animal, I think my cat is only aware of food for example :P

[Monk]

To some extent. As plugpoint put it, they are aware of pain, but most aren't aware of death.

[brunokiller]

Aren't we animals ourselves ;)

 

 

 

I think they do, in a lesser degree.

[tintin113]

"everyone should do this imo" - but not everyone has an interest in it so you'd have people in your class messing around. So maybe not such a great idea :P

 

Anyway, OT: I think they are, it's a bit difficult to explain... I think they sort of do know, because they can feel pain, but at the same time I don't think most animals are aware of death so maybe not.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure they are. Death is one of the most fundamentally and universally understood occurances in the natural world...

[Housepig]

"everyone should do this imo" - but not everyone has an interest in it so you'd have people in your class messing around. So maybe not such a great idea :P

 

Anyway, OT: I think they are, it's a bit difficult to explain... I think they sort of do know, because they can feel pain, but at the same time I don't think most animals are aware of death so maybe not.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure they are. Death is one of the most fundamentally and universally understood occurances in the natural world...

 

 

 

But non-sentient animals aren't actualy aware of death, just instinctively afraid of it.

[tintin113]

"everyone should do this imo" - but not everyone has an interest in it so you'd have people in your class messing around. So maybe not such a great idea :P

 

Anyway, OT: I think they are, it's a bit difficult to explain... I think they sort of do know, because they can feel pain, but at the same time I don't think most animals are aware of death so maybe not.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure they are. Death is one of the most fundamentally and universally understood occurances in the natural world...

 

 

 

But non-sentient animals aren't actualy aware of death, just instinctively afraid of it.

 

 

 

Hmm fair point... awareness and fear are different, but then again can you be afraid of something that you're not aware of? (This is different to being scared of something that you don't know about, because in that situation you are aware of what's there, you just know nothing/little about it.) Perhaps - as living organisms that can feel pain - they're scared of pain/great pain rather than being afraid of death? Just a thought... but I'm guessing that animals see death fairly often and so even if they can't communicate their worry to others they'll still know about it.

[Plugpoint]

[hide=]

"everyone should do this imo" - but not everyone has an interest in it so you'd have people in your class messing around. So maybe not such a great idea :P

 

Anyway, OT: I think they are, it's a bit difficult to explain... I think they sort of do know, because they can feel pain, but at the same time I don't think most animals are aware of death so maybe not.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure they are. Death is one of the most fundamentally and universally understood occurances in the natural world...

 

 

 

But non-sentient animals aren't actualy aware of death, just instinctively afraid of it.

 

 

 

Hmm fair point... awareness and fear are different, but then again can you be afraid of something that you're not aware of? (This is different to being scared of something that you don't know about, because in that situation you are aware of what's there, you just know nothing/little about it.) Perhaps - as living organisms that can feel pain - they're scared of pain/great pain rather than being afraid of death? Just a thought... but I'm guessing that animals see death fairly often and so even if they can't communicate their worry to others they'll still know about it.

[/hide]

 

Think that's it, that they're scared of pain. I think if another animal's died that they just assume it's in a really heavy sleep. But I'm not sure they know that they'll die too at some point.

[Bloodstain]

"everyone should do this imo" - but not everyone has an interest in it so you'd have people in your class messing around. So maybe not such a great idea :P

 

Anyway, OT: I think they are, it's a bit difficult to explain... I think they sort of do know, because they can feel pain, but at the same time I don't think most animals are aware of death so maybe not.

 

 

 

Understanding how your mind and brain work is a really nice thing, and I think it's pretty dang important. It really is interesting stuff too, it's not like biology or anything like that

[Mr_Adam]

I made my dog look at her reflection, and she seemed to avoid it/not care. But she responds to her name.

 

 

 

I also seem to remember a PetCo commercial where the dog checks itself out in the mirror.

[Guest User]

I made my dog look at her reflection, and she seemed to avoid it/not care. But she responds to her name.

 

 

 

I also seem to remember a PetCo commercial where the dog checks itself out in the mirror.

 

Trained to. Which begs pun the question, does the dog not know that they will recieve a treat when they sit or rollover, or atleast expect a treat? Animals learn from their actions, just as humans do. Are they aware that they are living and will die, etc? Maybe, maybe not. But if so, nowhere close to the extent that humans are aware. Is it not great having this huge brain?

[Adam007]

The majority of animals are no different from computers, unfortunately. They're intelligent and their brains are amazingly complicated, but in reality their concept of existence is limited to reacting to whatever stimuli are presented. Yes they can be smart, yes they can appear to show compassion, but what we perceive as personality is really a set of tools animals have adapted to best exploit their environment.

 

 

 

I'm a neuroscience major at Umich. My first biopsych class was pretty depressing. It does turn out animals are more like machines. Input (stimulus) -> output (behavior). There are the exceptions of animals that can recognize themselves in mirrors, but even then it is less intriguing than you'd think it would be. An unrelated example, when dolphins do tricks where they work together and have to communicate with each other for treats, they aren't consciously working together. Their minds work more like logarithms, trying out behavioral combinations until something works and they stick with it.

[dusqi]

The majority of animals are no different from computers, unfortunately. They're intelligent and their brains are amazingly complicated, but in reality their concept of existence is limited to reacting to whatever stimuli are presented.

 

 

 

Agree with this. When I sat in lectures about what animals can and can't do, it's pretty crazy just how stupid they are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think if another animal's died that they just assume it's in a really heavy sleep.

 

 

 

 

That assumes that they knew that the other animal was alive in the first place. I think they do not.

[champion]

I made my dog look at her reflection, and she seemed to avoid it/not care. But she responds to her name.

 

 

 

I also seem to remember a PetCo commercial where the dog checks itself out in the mirror.

 

My dog once saw herself in a mirror and barked loudly; I assume she thought it was another dog (she used to bark at others).

[Range_This11]

See I think they know death as an instinct. My old dog ate rat poison put out by our neighbor (on purpose, and he killed 3 other dogs on our block the same way) and was dying quite rapidly over the course of a week. I had a hockey game in the Twin Cities an hour away and we came home to my dog lying by the door waiting for us. Not 3 minutes after we came back she died with us next to her. It seemed like she knew she was dying and wanted to wait for us. I don't really know if that's true, but it seems she had the instinct of death.

[warren211]

I've always wondered: if a dog hears its name called, does it recognize the name as itself or have them simply become trained that the "name" is a way of calling them? For example, if a dog's name is Max, does he know his name is Max when its owner calls him, or does he simply know that lady saying "Max" wants him to come towards her and acknowledge her?

[runescapeloser22]

Wow, this thread is slightly depressing :(

[Adam007]

I've always wondered: if a dog hears its name called, does it recognize the name as itself or have them simply become trained that the "name" is a way of calling them? For example, if a dog's name is Max, does he know his name is Max when its owner calls him, or does he simply know that lady saying "Max" wants him to come towards her and acknowledge her?

 

If a dog's mind works like a machine, the input would be the dog's name. The output would be (after training) walking over. Since he's being rewarded with affection or treats, it's simply another case of positive reinforcement that eventually becomes habit. The concept of names is way above the cognitive capacity of a dog. Dogs can walk over to a family member if they're trained to when they hear the name, but that's only an association, nothing more.

 

It's kind of funny actually, this came up on digg today and has to do with what we're talking about: http://digg.com/d1tRrT

 

 

 

@rsloser22: Yeah it is, I was pretty disappointed to find this all out, but when you begin studying it and looking at non-human brains and behavior on a scientific level, it gets pretty amazing, just in a different way.

[Imalilranger]

See I think they know death as an instinct. My old dog ate rat poison put out by our neighbor (on purpose, and he killed 3 other dogs on our block the same way) and was dying quite rapidly over the course of a week. I had a hockey game in the Twin Cities an hour away and we came home to my dog lying by the door waiting for us. Not 3 minutes after we came back she died with us next to her. It seemed like she knew she was dying and wanted to wait for us. I don't really know if that's true, but it seems she had the instinct of death.

 

 

 

 

 

wouldnt that be a slow and painfull death and not rapidly? and wtf didnt you take it to the vets if you knew it was dying and it was a WEEK LONG

[Range_This11]

See I think they know death as an instinct. My old dog ate rat poison put out by our neighbor (on purpose, and he killed 3 other dogs on our block the same way) and was dying quite rapidly over the course of a week. I had a hockey game in the Twin Cities an hour away and we came home to my dog lying by the door waiting for us. Not 3 minutes after we came back she died with us next to her. It seemed like she knew she was dying and wanted to wait for us. I don't really know if that's true, but it seems she had the instinct of death.

 

 

 

 

 

wouldnt that be a slow and painfull death and not rapidly? and wtf didnt you take it to the vets if you knew it was dying and it was a WEEK LONG

 

If you know anything about rat poisoning, you'd know the only way to fix it would be a complete blood transfusion. We would have had to have her taken to the University of Minnesota's Animal Clinic and pay thousands of dollars. We didn't know that it was poison until after she died. We just knew she was dying because her back leg started to swell up and she couldn't move very well. Do you really think that we would just let our dog sit in agony and do nothing?

[Bloodstain]

See I think they know death as an instinct. My old dog ate rat poison put out by our neighbor (on purpose, and he killed 3 other dogs on our block the same way) and was dying quite rapidly over the course of a week. I had a hockey game in the Twin Cities an hour away and we came home to my dog lying by the door waiting for us. Not 3 minutes after we came back she died with us next to her. It seemed like she knew she was dying and wanted to wait for us. I don't really know if that's true, but it seems she had the instinct of death.

 

 

 

 

 

wouldnt that be a slow and painfull death and not rapidly? and wtf didnt you take it to the vets if you knew it was dying and it was a WEEK LONG

 

If you know anything about rat poisoning, you'd know the only way to fix it would be a complete blood transfusion. We would have had to have her taken to the University of Minnesota's Animal Clinic and pay thousands of dollars. We didn't know that it was poison until after she died. We just knew she was dying because her back leg started to swell up and she couldn't move very well. Do you really think that we would just let our dog sit in agony and do nothing?

 

 

 

Her back leg was swollen and she couldn't move well. That alone should have been reason to take her to the vet, if i read it right (as in you noticed her leg for a week before she died and she didn't see the vet before she died). In that case, should have taken her to the vet, found out it was poison, either decided to pay for the treatment or put her down. All this doesn't really matter though because what is done is done

 

 

 

 

 

What I am more interested in is did you guys go after the neighbour at all? If it were my dog and I took him to the vet, I would get as much evidence I could and sue the hell out of that bastard. If he left any evidence that is.

[Range_This11]

 

Her back leg was swollen and she couldn't move well. That alone should have been reason to take her to the vet, if i read it right (as in you noticed her leg for a week before she died and she didn't see the vet before she died). In that case, should have taken her to the vet, found out it was poison, either decided to pay for the treatment or put her down. All this doesn't really matter though because what is done is done

 

 

 

 

 

What I am more interested in is did you guys go after the neighbour at all? If it were my dog and I took him to the vet, I would get as much evidence I could and sue the hell out of that bastard. If he left any evidence that is.

 

The vet told us she had ingested it a week prior to her death, we didn't see the swollen leg until probably day 3 or 4. She had also been stung by bees earlier that summer and her front leg had swollen up and went away in a few days. We just thought it was that.

 

 

 

But enough on the story. We all talked to the Humane Society and they said that even though he should be punished for it, he can't be. He put the rat poison at the very edge of his yard where water gathers in a small ditch between properties which was also where our dogs went to drink rain water. Since all the dogs were technically on his property by about a foot and a half, we couldn't do anything. We had a huge article published in our local newspaper about him doing that. People started sending him letters and eventually he just moved out.

[indy500fan]

But enough on the story. We all talked to the Humane Society and they said that even though he should be punished for it, he can't be. He put the rat poison at the very edge of his yard where water gathers in a small ditch between properties which was also where our dogs went to drink rain water. Since all the dogs were technically on his property by about a foot and a half, we couldn't do anything. We had a huge article published in our local newspaper about him doing that. People started sending him letters and eventually he just moved out.

 

 

 

The dogs were on his property? He should have every right to do what is necessary to keep them off. That people sent him letters and complained enough to the point he had to move is the part that troubles me.