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Who is Truly to blame for the War in the Middle East?


foursideking

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Well, perhaps we should take a lesson from the Native Americans. A hostile, foreign populace gets a foothold in your lands, before you know it, your people are being forced into reservations by the new, powerful majority. I can see it happening again, this time with some other group of people taking over different lands; once again in the name of their god, removeing those they see as spiritualy inferior.

 

 

 

It did happen...in Israel.

 

 

 

But we can say with a large degree of certainty - it's all because of the Muslims.

 

 

 

Again, no we can't...it isn't that simple. Western nations, Israel and the various Muslim groups/nations have all contributed to conflict in the area and all have some degree of blame. No group is innocent in it all but nobody is solely responsible either.

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He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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But we can say with a large degree of certainty - it's all because of the Muslims.

 

 

 

Again, no we can't...it isn't that simple. Western nations, Israel and the various Muslim groups/nations have all contributed to conflict in the area and all have some degree of blame. No group is innocent in it all but nobody is solely responsible either.

 

 

 

The neutral smiley was there for a reason. I was being the DA.

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The war in the middle east has been going on for a lot longer than the plane crashing in to building bs. If you really want to know who to blame, go back further in to history and ask how America has always been in there somewhere either supplying the weapons or military funding/training for wars they were supposedly against. Go back and find out why Osama was actually a US ally. I could provide you with the answers but what fun would that be...always question everything. Look at East Timor as an example. America trained the Indonesian troops as well as supplied the weapons and even got the go ahead from the president to slaughter the Timor Lestes. You'll need to look in to the actual classified documents that are now available on the web. Also look in to the other super power Russia and how America was supposed to fight alongside them however stayed afar while the Russians were all shot! Gonna love the replies from the yanks ;)

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The only people who tell you that you can't do something are those who have already given up on their own dreams so feel the need to discourage yours.

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Maybe wondering how we could fix it is the more interesting question. ::'

Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

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World War 1 really screwed things up.

 

 

 

Arabs had been living in Empires since the beginning of (written) time. Literally, like for the past 10,000 years the people there lived in empires ranging from the Babylonians to the Assyrians to the Phoenicians, to the Egyptians, to the Neo-Babylonians, to the Macedonians, to the Romans, Persians, Ottomans, et cetera, et cetera. These people live in tribes and regions of land, belonging to sprawling empires that they pay tax to for security. Everyone is Muslim, everyone is contempt.

 

 

 

There are lots of types of "countries" that can exist. You can have city-states (like Sparta, a city that rules the surrounding area) or nation-states (like France, a set square of land that is under one rule) or empires (like Persia, vast land with a Emperor, but most of the people live a local life within small tribes and such. These tribes of people live in small and oblong regions of land with no real set borders.)

 

 

 

World War one happens and the last empire, the Ottoman Empire, collapses. What do the European nations do? They figure the region should be turned into nation-states like Europe. Okay so we go from these sort of thing:

 

 

 

persian_empire_map.gif

 

 

 

into this

 

 

 

European%20Colonialism%20in%20the%20Middle%20East.png

 

 

 

They literally just sat down, took out a map and a pen, and started drawing boxes. Many borders followed rivers (like Iraq), others followed mountain ranges (Afgan-Pakistan border) and other borders were literally just drawn with a pen and a ruler willy-nilly. Problem, remember the definition of a empire? It has a leader but it mostly made of groups of people and tribes... and these nation-states didn't care about those tribes. So now you had country borders running right through the tribes, groups of 4 million people were now split in half and separated, told to follow the nation-state. There people didn't care about countries, they cared about their Muslim brothers and sects.

 

 

 

A country needs something to unify the people (England has the Queen, the US has the Constitution, Russia has the Rodina (motherland)) Without a unifying aspect the country will not prosper and laws are hard to enforce. Militant tribal leaders have more say then the national government and violence is often the answer. This bears repeating, since the concept of a nation-state was just forced on these people recently, and since the countries are not made of unifying tribes or religious sects, the governments have little control over many of citizens. Many, many citizens follow religious leaders and the Qur'an instead of focusing on "Western Ideals" like nation building or working on "the american dream" of saving money and settling down with their family in a nice peaceful job. These are simply not values for many in the Arab world .

 

 

 

Add in the details about how the "Jews came and took the land away from our Palestine brothers" and you have a hundred million Arabs who don't care about what the UN thinks or what the United States says (its another nation-state to their eyes). Now toss in the fact that Israel responds to protesters throwing rocks, with Israeli bombs and M-16s and things just get worse. Muslim nation-states declare war on Israel but Israel is armed with the full might of the United States behind it supplying hundreds of billions of dollars in the newest arms and training. Israel, this tiny country with no natural resources, wins the regional war in 1948. Now you have a bunch of really pissed off Arabs who want Israel gone but can't win a war with them, so terrorism spreads as a way to fight back. Since the US supports them the US gets its fair share of hate and attacks on embassies and eventually 9/11.

 

 

 

And the rest is history.

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Well, Americans are not at fault, they just intervened during Operation Desert Storm. But we were fighting for the minority groups. After our job was done, we hadn't killed off all the opposition, and after accomplishing what we wanted accomplished, we left the little groups to fend for themselves, making them hate us more. The only people happy with us was Kuwait because we stopped Iraq from taking over.

 

 

 

So we are partly to blame for the continuing violence, just because we kind of entered the war, assured the minorities it would be okay, and then left immediately after the oil fields in Kuwait were secure, which would lead to more violence. If we had finished the job and not just left, it might be different.

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Well, Americans are not at fault, they just intervened during Operation Desert Storm. But we were fighting for the minority groups. After our job was done, we hadn't killed off all the opposition, and after accomplishing what we wanted accomplished, we left the little groups to fend for themselves, making them hate us more. The only people happy with us was Kuwait because we stopped Iraq from taking over.

 

 

 

So we are partly to blame for the continuing violence, just because we kind of entered the war, assured the minorities it would be okay, and then left immediately after the oil fields in Kuwait were secure, which would lead to more violence. If we had finished the job and not just left, it might be different.

 

Supplying my enemy with the latest tanks, guns, and technology doesn't make you guilty? America has been involved with the Middle East (primarily by backing up Israel) for decades before 9/11 or the Iraqi War of 1991.

 

 

 

If we "finished" the job in Iraq then, the same situation we are in right now would of happened in 1999 instead of 2009.

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Maybe wondering how we could fix it is the more interesting question. ::'

 

Won't happen. As long as there is a Middle East, there will always be fighting.

 

 

 

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=798144

 

Iran is fighting back, maybe we should do something else than watch? I know it might sound like I'm saying we're not doing enough while at the same time rejecting the responsibility, but if Stephen Harper is willing to receive a 14 year old, I'm willing to suggest it.

Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]!

Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL!

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Lots of stuff.

 

 

 

1.) Zionism and anti-semitism in Europe in the late 19th century and beginning of the 20th century.

 

 

 

2.) The end of the Ottoman Empire.

 

 

 

3.) The bias towards Israel in 1948 during the first partitions, whereby the Arabs attacked Israel and lost even more land.

 

 

 

4.) The 6-day war.

 

 

 

5.) Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

 

 

6.) 1953 overthrow of the Iranian democracy by the British who were aided by the US.

 

 

 

7.) Partitions between India and Pakistan from the British empire, and the displacement of peoples in Kashmir.

 

 

 

8.) Funding of the Mujahideen by the Carter admin, which was exponentially escalated by Reagan.

 

 

 

9.) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

 

 

 

10.) The abandonment of the Afghan people by the United States, who left their nation to rubble once the Soviets retreated, offering nothing for infrastucture, education, and health care.

 

 

 

11.) Leaving the Mujahideen armed.

 

 

 

12.) The Iraq War.

 

 

 

13.) The continued bias towards Israel since 1948, which has escalated ever since Reagan by every administration following--including Obama's. However, Obama's balance is much like Carter's, and a breath of fresh air, despite the bias (their our ally, of course there will be bias).

 

 

 

14.) Labeling Iran in the "Axis of Evil."

 

 

 

15.) No Palestinian State with defined borders...after 60 years.

 

 

 

More stuff, but mostly the earlier stuff. Trapical's post was a good explanation, but I worry that people will take it like a lot of Islamophobes and pro-Westerners do: tribalism is the "problem" with the region. Of course it's something to do with it, but it sounds like the same argument against the North American "savages."

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Well, Americans are not at fault, they just intervened during Operation Desert Storm. But we were fighting for the minority groups. After our job was done, we hadn't killed off all the opposition, and after accomplishing what we wanted accomplished, we left the little groups to fend for themselves, making them hate us more. The only people happy with us was Kuwait because we stopped Iraq from taking over.

 

 

 

So we are partly to blame for the continuing violence, just because we kind of entered the war, assured the minorities it would be okay, and then left immediately after the oil fields in Kuwait were secure, which would lead to more violence. If we had finished the job and not just left, it might be different.

 

Supplying my enemy with the latest tanks, guns, and technology doesn't make you guilty? America has been involved with the Middle East (primarily by backing up Israel) for decades before 9/11 or the Iraqi War of 1991.

 

 

 

If we "finished" the job in Iraq then, the same situation we are in right now would of happened in 1999 instead of 2009.

 

 

 

Yes, we did pay for their weapons and such during the Soviet Invasion of the country to get revenge on Russia after putting us through the Cold War.

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Well, Americans are not at fault, they just intervened during Operation Desert Storm. But we were fighting for the minority groups. After our job was done, we hadn't killed off all the opposition, and after accomplishing what we wanted accomplished, we left the little groups to fend for themselves, making them hate us more. The only people happy with us was Kuwait because we stopped Iraq from taking over.

 

 

 

So we are partly to blame for the continuing violence, just because we kind of entered the war, assured the minorities it would be okay, and then left immediately after the oil fields in Kuwait were secure, which would lead to more violence. If we had finished the job and not just left, it might be different.

 

Supplying my enemy with the latest tanks, guns, and technology doesn't make you guilty? America has been involved with the Middle East (primarily by backing up Israel) for decades before 9/11 or the Iraqi War of 1991.

 

 

 

If we "finished" the job in Iraq then, the same situation we are in right now would of happened in 1999 instead of 2009.

 

 

 

Yes, we did pay for their weapons and such during the Soviet Invasion of the country to get revenge on Russia after putting us through the Cold War.

 

 

 

What nation are you referring to? The US provided Saddam with weapons to fight Iran during their war in the 1980's. The Afghans were given weapons and assistance to fight the Russians when they invaded Afghanistan which was during the Cold War (basically a proxy war).

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He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

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revenge on Russia after putting us through the Cold War.

 

Sounds like Sarah Palin. :lol:

 

 

 

Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

Don't argue with him, he's Jewish.

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

Don't argue with him, he's Jewish.

 

 

 

That wasn't funny at all....if anything it's pretty anti-Semitic. :thumbdown:

 

 

 

Nice one anyway adding intelligent debate to the topic. :thumbup:

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Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

 

 

Hasn't this dispute of Islam been dragging on for some time before the United States was even thought of...?

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[hide=]

 

 

 

Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

Don't argue with him, he's Jewish.

[/hide]

 

 

 

That wasn't funny at all....if anything it's pretty anti-Semitic. :thumbdown:

 

 

 

Nice one anyway adding intelligent debate to the topic. :thumbup:

 

 

 

I think what he meant was that the poster would be biased because of that, in the same way that Muslims tend to be biased in favour of the Palestinians. I don't think there was any intentional bigotry going on.

wild_bunch.gif

He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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[hide=]

 

 

 

Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

Don't argue with him, he's Jewish.

[/hide]

 

 

 

That wasn't funny at all....if anything it's pretty anti-Semitic. :thumbdown:

 

 

 

Nice one anyway adding intelligent debate to the topic. :thumbup:

 

 

 

I think what he meant was that the poster would be biased because of that, in the same way that Muslims tend to be biased in favour of the Palestinians. I don't think there was any intentional bigotry going on.

 

 

 

Yes, because we all know that you just love jumping to Robert's defence. :roll:

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[hide=]
[hide=]

 

 

 

Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

Don't argue with him, he's Jewish.

 

 

 

That wasn't funny at all....if anything it's pretty anti-Semitic. :thumbdown:

 

 

 

Nice one anyway adding intelligent debate to the topic. :thumbup:

 

 

 

I think what he meant was that the poster would be biased because of that, in the same way that Muslims tend to be biased in favour of the Palestinians. I don't think there was any intentional bigotry going on.

[/hide]

 

 

 

Yes, because we all know that you just love jumping to Robert's defence. :roll:

 

 

 

Fair comment considering what has been said in the past. I didn't say I agreed with what the poster said (that you can't argue with him because he's jewish), I just don't think it was meant in the way it was taken. Believe it or not I didn't actually pay much attention to who it was referring to. Look, I don't want a running flame war with anyone, I've said I was offended by his views on the other issue but I'm not going to drag that around (and I didn't intentionally do it here). If I think the guy is right over something or if I agree with him on something I've no problem with saying so. Again, we've had our clash on that one issue, and yes I went off the handle as I was offended, but I have no intention of bashing Robert over it in every thread for the sake of it (and I didn't here). The matter isn't one I'm going to dwell on like a child because 1 - it's futile and 2 - I have better things to do.

wild_bunch.gif

He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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It's interesting Yemen claimed to have arrested a man who they claimed was an Al Qaeda financier a few days back and today a number of foreign hostages have been killed in Yemen. If those people were killed by Al Qaeda (which the news states is likely) then it suggests that they've been rattled by that arrest.

 

 

 

 

 

[hide=]

I kid I kid, 1MA, just pointing out what needs to be. Nothing against you or anyone else, just making some lulz.

 

 

 

I value your opinions just as much as any other user on these forums.

 

 

 

No problem but I wanted to clarify anyway, I don't want to have pitched battles with anyone over multiple threads. I hate going this far off topic.[/hide]

wild_bunch.gif

He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

Don't argue with him, he's Jewish.

 

 

 

That wasn't funny at all....if anything it's pretty anti-Semitic. :thumbdown:

 

 

 

Nice one anyway adding intelligent debate to the topic. :thumbup:

 

I don't mind at all. Don't worry, it's a misunderstanding.

 

I was saying our Gods are absolutely nothing alike. I do totally back Israel, though, and no, the Israelis/Jews aren't to blame. They were invaded almost immediately after (legally) declaring independence.

[English translation needed]

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[hide=]

 

 

 

Their god is basically the same exact one, they call him by a different name.

 

:lol: Trust me, that's not the case.

 

 

 

I agree though, it is the extremist/fundamentalist Muslim movement that has caused all this.

 

 

 

So it's all down to Islam while America is scot free? Rather biased view, both sides are quite to blame.

 

Don't argue with him, he's Jewish.

 

 

 

That wasn't funny at all....if anything it's pretty anti-Semitic. :thumbdown:

 

 

 

Nice one anyway adding intelligent debate to the topic. :thumbup:

 

I don't mind at all. Don't worry, it's a misunderstanding.

 

I was saying our Gods are absolutely nothing alike. I do totally back Israel, though, and no, the Israelis/Jews aren't to blame. They were invaded almost immediately after (legally) declaring independence.

[/hide]

 

 

 

I think it largely depends on who was in charge of arranging the whole lets give the jews a country program. Although it seemed like a good gesture to give israel the holy land, its obvious this wasn't thought through properly. Looking online, Israel is a little bigger then the state of new jersey; point being its quite reasonable to assume america and canada could have given up area around oregon/washington/canadian province thats over there. While I hate to come close to justifying acts against israel, its creation was functionally an invasion of middle eastern lands. While fault of the islamic community increases as we move away from israel being new, at the beginning it was more of a western fault that caused a large amount of the current problems.

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the only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed.

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