What is the point of a combat level if it no longer represents your combat ability?

You, sir, win this discussion.

 

It has never really totally represented your combat ability. If you were hiding AGS it was never showed by your combat level, but it greatly effects your ability. If you had agility as stated before it never showed, but it gave you a very good advantage against someone else if you were planning on running. So really never represented their ability in combat from the first place. However, I see that post sides have valid arguments and they are on the opposite sides of the spectrum. It however is important that instead of making a decision because someone is crying about it that Jagex actually looks at the facts and makes a decision not based on majority but on what's right. I think that is what most of us that are against this change are after. I'd hate to see a trend to start that if I whine and spam hard enough that I will get what I want.

 

 

I believe I've addressed this already. If you have the level to wield an AGS, I won't be surprised because "well he's over level 100, he probably has level 75 attack, there is a possibility of me getting hit by an AGS spec". The right to wield AGS has been granted by attack level that affect combat level.

 

And come to think of it, the imbued rings wasn't that good of an example comparable to the new potions as well. Imbued rings, fire cape, amulet of fury, better food, super set etc are all non-level dependant advantage that anyone can choose to invest in for better winning chances against another player with equivalent combat stats (and combat level). The new potions are advantages linked to a level in a skill, much like how you can use AGS at level 75 attack, or use a steel titan at level 99 summon. Only difference is that herblore doesn't contribute to combat level.

 

The extreme magic potion is an extreme example. You can never win another player if both of you have 99 magic, use the same equipment and cast the same spell, even if your combat level implies equal combat prowess, if the other guy can use the potion and you can't.

 

 

You know why Jagex removed those potions? Because they made Summoning add to your combat level in PVP based on whether you have a pouch, but they can't do the same thing with herblore.

Edited October 13, 200916 yr by ravian

^AGS doesn't need 75 strength.

Oh right, scrap that.

I still think the imbued rings are a comparable example because much like these new potions, they require time to acquire and they are hidden to your opponent. Of course these potions give a bigger edge to the one having them than the difference by the rings but it's the same concept. They might not be level dependant but they still require time to get.

I still think the imbued rings are a comparable example because much like these new potions, they require time to acquire and they are hidden to your opponent. Of course these potions give a bigger edge to the one having them than the difference by the rings but it's the same concept. They might not be level dependant but they still require time to get.

 

So are food. If you're using sharks, and lost to someone by a mere margin only to be told later that he was using manta ray, you can't complain that it's unfair because he decided to invest a bit more, you didn't. For rings, it's just a matter of more effort, but you can't complain if you're losing more fights thanks to the ring slot disadvantage if you're not willing to invest more time/money for them.

 

But the fact that the potions have level requirement to use means that IF Jagex organise some sort of tournament, high herblore becomes one of the new hidden requirement to stand a chance of winning, in addition to good food, super set, non-level based good equipment. Especially true for magic, and that's only because melee and ranged potion series have a buffer zone.

 

 

You should also consider this: Could summoning have worked as how it is now, but does not add to your combat level? Meaning that you don't mind max combat level at 126, and people who invested time/money to train summoning having a combat advantage without displaying it in combat level.

While the addition of these new potions was a good idea, it just wasn't completly thought through imo.

 

I think they could of gone a different route where, instead of forcing potions to be untradeable, they could of had the potions strength and boosting time dependant on your herblore level. The higher your herblore level the more powerful the potions would become, also based on your combat levels ofcourse.

 

This would of solved the problem to begin with as everyone could access the new potions, however only the few with high enough herblore would feel their full benefits.

 

Esentially at 1 herblore they would of worked the same as super potions, but as your herblore progressed they would boost more thus lasting longer.

 

EDIT: Basically it would be the same relation to potions how Firemaking is to a hand cannon exploding. Its not a direct relation to combat, but it is a skill that CAN help assist your combat to be more sucessful.

While the addition of these new potions was a good idea, it just wasn't completly thought through imo.

 

I think they could of gone a different route where, instead of forcing potions to be untradeable, they could of had the potions strength and boosting time dependant on your herblore level. The higher your herblore level the more powerful the potions would become, also based on your combat levels ofcourse.

 

This would of solved the problem to begin with as everyone could access the new potions, however only the few with high enough herblore would feel their full benefits.

 

Esentially at 1 herblore they would of worked the same as super potions, but as your herblore progressed they would boost more thus lasting longer.

 

EDIT: Basically it would be the same relation to potions how Firemaking is to a hand cannon exploding. Its not a direct relation to combat, but it is a skill that CAN help assist your combat to be more sucessful.

Have my babies :ohnoes:

One way to solve the problem is part is to let combat levels increase in an exponential manner. That way a person that has 85 in Mage, about 32 times the experience points of a player with 45 str and atk, reflects a higher combat level commensurate with all the effort he put in.

 

Bad idea imo.

 

Care to elaborate? Look, the Combat Levels came about in RSC when the highest weapon was Level 30 Addy. It was altered in RS2 to seperate Mage, Range and Melee (reducing effect of pures) but the basic idea was the same so that pures had an impact with Level 40 Rune and Level 60 Dragon (plus a bit of time when Level 70 Black Dragonhide and the double Special mage shortbow reigned supreme).

 

It's Runescape, so getting 60, 65, 70 or 75 skill levels are big changes in combat potential due to access to higher weapons. The skill level by itself is nothing. In that, even Atk has a better benefit over Str cause a character 60 Atk, 40 Str using Dragon Scimmy (no special) can womp on a character with 60 Str and 40 Atk using Rune Scimmy.

 

This isn't anything new. Like what's been posted above, one's combat level, especially in the mid-ranges, is a poor determination on what damage you can expect from a person.

 

In relation to herblore, I like the idea that it becomes like prayer and impact the Combat level. However, if that's the case, more "untradeable" combat potions need to be made available. I'm thinking along the lines of overload versions of Super and Regular combat potions. Perhaps potions that stay active for 3 or 5 minutes full strength but some penalty. So, low level access to untradeable lower level potions and herblore impacts combat level. Like Summoning, those that don't keep "untradeable" potions in their inventory don't have herblore impact the combat level. Win/Win.

I still think the imbued rings are a comparable example because much like these new potions, they require time to acquire and they are hidden to your opponent. Of course these potions give a bigger edge to the one having them than the difference by the rings but it's the same concept. They might not be level dependant but they still require time to get.

 

So are food. If you're using sharks, and lost to someone by a mere margin only to be told later that he was using manta ray, you can't complain that it's unfair because he decided to invest a bit more, you didn't. For rings, it's just a matter of more effort, but you can't complain if you're losing more fights thanks to the ring slot disadvantage if you're not willing to invest more time/money for them.

 

But the fact that the potions have level requirement to use means that IF Jagex organise some sort of tournament, high herblore becomes one of the new hidden requirement to stand a chance of winning, in addition to good food, super set, non-level based good equipment. Especially true for magic, and that's only because melee and ranged potion series have a buffer zone.

 

 

You should also consider this: Could summoning have worked as how it is now, but does not add to your combat level? Meaning that you don't mind max combat level at 126, and people who invested time/money to train summoning having a combat advantage without displaying it in combat level.

 

 

That last question is a toughie because for the most part, summoning familiars are useless in single way PVP, where I would assume combat level matters.

 

The same argument you use for the rings can be applied with the exact same words to high level herblore. My point is if unlocking rings is an hidden factor and is accepted, then so should herblore. Using sharks over rocktails, manta rays or potatoes is a matter of choice. Anyone not using the best items available is essentially shooting himself in the foot. The same reasoning could be applied with extreme potions.

 

My question is mostly: why is time/effort rewarded in some case and this time denied?

I still think the imbued rings are a comparable example because much like these new potions, they require time to acquire and they are hidden to your opponent. Of course these potions give a bigger edge to the one having them than the difference by the rings but it's the same concept. They might not be level dependant but they still require time to get.

 

So are food. If you're using sharks, and lost to someone by a mere margin only to be told later that he was using manta ray, you can't complain that it's unfair because he decided to invest a bit more, you didn't. For rings, it's just a matter of more effort, but you can't complain if you're losing more fights thanks to the ring slot disadvantage if you're not willing to invest more time/money for them.

 

But the fact that the potions have level requirement to use means that IF Jagex organise some sort of tournament, high herblore becomes one of the new hidden requirement to stand a chance of winning, in addition to good food, super set, non-level based good equipment. Especially true for magic, and that's only because melee and ranged potion series have a buffer zone.

 

 

You should also consider this: Could summoning have worked as how it is now, but does not add to your combat level? Meaning that you don't mind max combat level at 126, and people who invested time/money to train summoning having a combat advantage without displaying it in combat level.

 

 

That last question is a toughie because for the most part, summoning familiars are useless in single way PVP, where I would assume combat level matters.

 

The same argument you use for the rings can be applied with the exact same words to high level herblore. My point is if unlocking rings is an hidden factor and is accepted, then so should herblore. Using sharks over rocktails, manta rays or potatoes is a matter of choice. Anyone not using the best items available is essentially shooting himself in the foot. The same reasoning could be applied with extreme potions.

 

My question is mostly: why is time/effort rewarded in some case and this time denied?

 

I think it's the connection between combat skill levels and combat level. You have two kinds of advantages:

 

Anything that is unlocked for use using combat related skill levels (apart from the additional non-combat skills). If Jagex releases new level 80 weapons, it means that you need to start worrying about players whose combat level might imply the possibility of those items used against you.

 

Anything that is accessible by time/effort/gold to buy more expensive combat resources, complete a quest, grind in a minigame etc, but otherwise not directly related to combat skill levels in order to access these items. All these are choices and investments you can choose to make.

 

 

Anything else is probably removed from PVP. That's why summoning adds to combat level. That's why herblore probably either has to follow suit, or has another combat skill requirement like Attack, or be removed from PVP.

 

And then there's the issue of how magic seems too dependant on the extreme magic potion compared to the other two combat styles, making herblore skill too much of a neccessity for hopeful magic users, worsened by the fact that herblore cost a bomb too.

@ Ravian...once again!

 

What is the difference between skill combat bonus and equipment combat bonus? I mean if someone has put the time and effort to get the levels and complete the fight caves, they should have an advantage over someone that has chosen not to do it. This is currently how it works for all untradeable items. Remember that time is money - getting the necessary levels has an opportunity cost.

 

You say that it's the player's choice to either get the proper items or face the consequence, why can't this be applied to herblore? Because of the astronomical cost and time it takes to get to level 90? If these potions, instead of adding to the skills, were to affect the equipment bonus for a short period, would this be acceptable?

 

I have a feeling that the big issue is the huge gap for a majority of players to access these potions quickly.

@ Ravian...once again!

 

What is the difference between skill combat bonus and equipment combat bonus? I mean if someone has put the time and effort to get the levels and complete the fight caves, they should have an advantage over someone that has chosen not to do it. This is currently how it works for all untradeable items. Remember that time is money - getting the necessary levels has an opportunity cost.

 

You say that it's the player's choice to either get the proper items or face the consequence, why can't this be applied to herblore? Because of the astronomical cost and time it takes to get to level 90? If these potions, instead of adding to the skills, were to affect the equipment bonus for a short period, would this be acceptable?

 

I have a feeling that the big issue is the huge gap for a majority of players to access these potions quickly.

 

I've thought of this as well. Let's see....

 

It costs tons of gold and time, much more than simply buying better fish off GE or playing pest control for two days, for which you have no advantage from 1-82, after which you suddenly get an extra 21 stats which is about 8 combat levels' worth and 25% special energy with no change to combat level, making the skill somewhat a combat skill but not really, contradicts with the summoning system, makes magic too dependant on herblore to have an edge.....

 

Yeah, that's about it. To be honest I think Summoning shouldn't give combat levels, then at least herblore wouldn't have this problem as well, and the era of combat advantages unlocked with skill level but aren't part of the combat level calculation can begin smoothly.

@ Ravian...once again!

 

What is the difference between skill combat bonus and equipment combat bonus? I mean if someone has put the time and effort to get the levels and complete the fight caves, they should have an advantage over someone that has chosen not to do it. This is currently how it works for all untradeable items. Remember that time is money - getting the necessary levels has an opportunity cost.

 

You say that it's the player's choice to either get the proper items or face the consequence, why can't this be applied to herblore? Because of the astronomical cost and time it takes to get to level 90? If these potions, instead of adding to the skills, were to affect the equipment bonus for a short period, would this be acceptable?

 

I have a feeling that the big issue is the huge gap for a majority of players to access these potions quickly.

 

 

 

I've thought of this as well. Let's see....

 

It costs tons of gold and time, much more than simply buying better fish off GE or playing pest control for two days, for which you have no advantage from 1-82, after which you suddenly get an extra 21 stats which is about 8 combat levels' worth and 25% special energy with no change to combat level, making the skill somewhat a combat skill but not really, contradicts with the summoning system, makes magic too dependant on herblore to have an edge.....

 

Yeah, that's about it. To be honest I think Summoning shouldn't give combat levels, then at least herblore wouldn't have this problem as well, and the era of combat advantages unlocked with skill level but aren't part of the combat level calculation can begin smoothly.

 

I agree that this is a big brain teaser! Please don't mention the possibility of removing lvls from summoning (only because of those annoying wild dogs in the karamja dongeon!). I could also argue that getting from 69 cooking to 70 gives you the possibility of getting a + 3 bonus to all offensive stats and defensive stats except magic from the recipe for disaster gloves.

 

Anyway I think we both argued to the limits of both sides and we can only agree to disagree from now on. Nice debate to be honest, I usually end up debating with people who won't even consider the opinion of others and debates end up with both sides insulting each other...

I personally think that it shouldn't have been disabled. At least not in the non-PvP mini-games. Glad I didn't buy a ton of herbs with the hopes of getting a high herblore level for Pking. :lol:

Hi,

 

I've created this sticky to thank you all for the feedback (good and bad!) that you have posted in regards to the new potions being disabled in PvP areas. We are considering it all very carefully.

 

We don't want to rush any further decisions or modifications unless we are sure that we have got it right, hence the delay in communication.

 

Please rest assured that we are considering all the points raised and we certainly do not listen to any specific groups more or less than any others.

 

Looks like they're willing to at least do the update some justice.

The potions should at least be allowed in clan wars or castlewars pvp i can understand