Songwriting?

[champion]

Where might be some good sources for learning about music theory; both in general and for guitar?

[Zierro]

There are almost no artists that make it big that do not have a background in theory or classical. Even if a musician is playing something completely random their background and training bleeds into that whether or not it sounds like it or not.

 

Of course. It is better to have the training than to not have it, but the way you put it you made it sound like you absolutely must have training or else your material will not be good. I'm just saying that there are definitely some exceptions out there. Not every good piece of music exists because of music theory.

 

Giuseppe Verdi admitted that he was the least learned when it comes to technical composition, but that never prevented him from becoming a highly regarded musician amongst many opera fans. Some people understand things naturally without needing to scientifically break it down and analyze it in order to get it. And also, I think there are some musical pieces that sound good even though they defy the normal laws of music theory.

[Intriguing]

Where might be some good sources for learning about music theory; both in general and for guitar?

Do you know what the main music examination syllabus is around where you live? If not, go to your local music store and ask. If you can get ahold of a grade 1 music theory book from a respected music syllabus that would be a good place to start. When that becomes common knowledge, move on to grade 2. You could do theory exams if you want to, but you'll learn just as much without doing the exams.

[Jernlov]

I went to a school that specialized in music, and I definitely agree that music theory helps. Also, if you can't read score or transpose, LEARN THEM. Another essential thing everyone needs to get down early are intervals; for example, diminished 4th, perfect 4th, augmented 4th. I'm one of those people who puts little emphasis on scales and such. Whilst learning scales is a useful thing, it's not required to be able to write decent music and it's way too easy to overuse them and turn your music into an unlistenable [bleep]fest.

 

I also think that complex time signatures are BS. You don't need to get any more complex than 5/4.

[Range_This11]

I also think that complex time signatures are BS. You don't need to get any more complex than 5/4.

When I write in odd meters, it happens naturally. It's not: "Let's sit down and write something in 11". I can say I'm a fan of 9/8 and 10/8 when it comes to odd meters.

 

Obviously it doesn't appeal to everybody, but I love writing a groove over an odd meter. Something you can still nod your head to, but doesn't become so complex that it just sounds like a mad rush of notes and rhythms. It's not writing in that meter just for the sake of being odd or different.

[bongo_man]

I also think that complex time signatures are BS. You don't need to get any more complex than 5/4.

When I write in odd meters, it happens naturally. It's not: "Let's sit down and write something in 11". I can say I'm a fan of 9/8 and 10/8 when it comes to odd meters.

 

Obviously it doesn't appeal to everybody, but I love writing a groove over an odd meter. Something you can still nod your head to, but doesn't become so complex that it just sounds like a mad rush of notes and rhythms. It's not writing in that meter just for the sake of being odd or different.

 

I love the feel of compound and mixed meters. Last year our Wind Ensemble played a piece called Vesuvius by Frank Ticheli, and I just loved playing the 9/8 measures (even though it took us about three rehearsals just to get the counting down as an ensemble =\).

 

I think quintuplets and quadruplets are true BS. Most of the time they sound unfitting, and they're a [female dog] to count in time.

[rangeor]

Where might be some good sources for learning about music theory; both in general and for guitar?

Theory is how music works. It isn't any different on guitar than it is on piano or viola. I'd first watch this series by Howard Goodall, titled How Music Works:

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/timegrinder#g/c/FC019DB4E1400743 Part 1, Melody

http://www.youtube.com/user/timegrinder#g/c/D22A163254D058A0 Part 2, Rhythm

http://www.youtube.com/user/timegrinder#g/c/B65B121D5BDB43BE Part 3, Harmony

http://www.youtube.com/user/timegrinder#g/c/64F4C249A2A64340 Part 4, Bass

 

These will give you a general idea of what you should expect to learn about if you decide to take a music theory course in school. There's also a few good websites, like...

 

Musictheory.net - A website with a lot of theory-related resources. There are lessons, trainers (I love the ear trainer!), and calculators. Fully exploring that website will give you knowledge of about half a semester of a music theory course.

 

The Crusade - An 11-part column on ultimate-guitar that covers again, about half a semester of a music theory course. I'd go over this as well as musictheory.net, since they have mostly the same information, but one part might make more sense on one than the other.

 

However if you REALLY like theory (like me :D) the best thing you can do is take a course on it. The next best thing to do would be books, but I'd only do that after going over these websites, since most beginner books give the same information. It's the more advanced information (like counterpoint) that's better to learn through a course or a book.

[Range_This11]

I also think that complex time signatures are BS. You don't need to get any more complex than 5/4.

When I write in odd meters, it happens naturally. It's not: "Let's sit down and write something in 11". I can say I'm a fan of 9/8 and 10/8 when it comes to odd meters.

 

Obviously it doesn't appeal to everybody, but I love writing a groove over an odd meter. Something you can still nod your head to, but doesn't become so complex that it just sounds like a mad rush of notes and rhythms. It's not writing in that meter just for the sake of being odd or different.

 

I love the feel of compound and mixed meters. Last year our Wind Ensemble played a piece called Vesuvius by Frank Ticheli, and I just loved playing the 9/8 measures (even though it took us about three rehearsals just to get the counting down as an ensemble =\).

 

I think quintuplets and quadruplets are true BS. Most of the time they sound unfitting, and they're a [female dog] to count in time.

I played that in concert band my Sophomore year in High School. Awesome piece.

[das]

I write lots of lyrics for rap music. Infact I have a link to an original piece I wrote in my sig (And i rapped it too with some buds)

[Jernlov]

I also think that complex time signatures are BS. You don't need to get any more complex than 5/4.

When I write in odd meters, it happens naturally. It's not: "Let's sit down and write something in 11". I can say I'm a fan of 9/8 and 10/8 when it comes to odd meters.

 

Obviously it doesn't appeal to everybody, but I love writing a groove over an odd meter. Something you can still nod your head to, but doesn't become so complex that it just sounds like a mad rush of notes and rhythms. It's not writing in that meter just for the sake of being odd or different.

I can understand that. It's people who write in something like 27/16 to try to prove that their band can be "technical" that get to me. As long as you have a musical reason for writing it then it's all good.

 

I'm also quite the fan of 9/8 and it's the only real irregular time sig that I use.

[svs]

Whenever lyrics pop up in your head you should not hesitate to write them down, before you know it youll have a whole lot of lyrics and when combined they can turn out to be a nice song, starting with a beat and building your lyrics on that is easier than starting with lyrics and building your beats on that.

[Range_This11]

I can understand that. It's people who write in something like 27/16 to try to prove that their band can be "technical" that get to me. As long as you have a musical reason for writing it then it's all good.

 

I'm also quite the fan of 9/8 and it's the only real irregular time sig that I use.

Hahaha anyone who writes mainstream music in */16 is a moron.

[Socc]

I'm hoping this is the right place to post for songwriting help if I'm a bit stuck...

 

So I have a riff I like and I'll stick it in hide quotes under this, I plan on it being the verse, but when I get to writing the chorus I can't get it to sound good. I play it on acoustic guitar kind of slow like. Heres the riff:

[hide=Awesome Riff I love :D]

|---------------------|----------------------|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--0--0----00--0--|--0--0----00--0---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--2--3----55--7--|--2--3----55--7---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

[/hide]

 

I've been trying a chord progression after repeating this a few

but the one I've been trying the B chord hasn't sounded well with it :/

 

Progression:

B-C-D-E

 

I'm not sure If I'm playing the B chord wrong or what but It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the chords I play. If anyone can suggest a better way to help me in my situation I'd really appreciate it!

[bongo_man]

I'm hoping this is the right place to post for songwriting help if I'm a bit stuck...

 

So I have a riff I like and I'll stick it in hide quotes under this, I plan on it being the verse, but when I get to writing the chorus I can't get it to sound good. I play it on acoustic guitar kind of slow like. Heres the riff:

[hide=Awesome Riff I love ]

|---------------------|----------------------|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--0--0----00--0--|--0--0----00--0---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--2--3----55--7--|--2--3----55--7---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

[/hide]

 

I've been trying a chord progression after repeating this a few

but the one I've been trying the B chord hasn't sounded well with it :/

 

Progression:

B-C-D-E

 

I'm not sure If I'm playing the B chord wrong or what but It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the chords I play. If anyone can suggest a better way to help me in my situation I'd really appreciate it!

 

Your first pair of notes are B and G, and there are only two triads that contain those two notes, which are: Gmaj and Emin. From that you can deduce that your song will be in the key of G major or E minor.

 

From there you can apply the rules of chord progressions for each scale. What I did was use the moving notes to form the chord progression. Since the next pair of notes are C and G, I used the Cmaj (IV) triad as the next chord. For the next pair--D and G--I used Dmaj (V). And for the last pair--E and G--I used Emin (VI). So if you decide to use G major as your key, your chord progression would be:

 

I-IV-V-VI (Gmaj, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin).

 

If you decide to use the Eminor scale, you can simply invert the quality of the chords, and go down a third according to the new quality (so if you invert Gmaj to Gmin, you go down a minor third to Emin; if you invert Emin to Emaj, you go down a major third to Cmaj). Once you do that your Eminor scale chord progression would be:

 

I-IV-V-VI (Emin, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj).

 

And if you want to get more specific it would be Eminor in its natural form, since the IV chord is minor.

 

I personally like the sound of the Gmaj progression better, but it's totally up to you to decide which scale to use. Good luck with your song

[FlameHawk18]

I've mostly been learning theory and songwriting from my bass/guitar teacher, and he makes it seem easy, so I enjoy it.

 

I still need to sharpen up on my knowledge of chords and keys, though. Moreover I keep forgetting the notes in a diminished chord and a augmented. Really been hindering my piano playing.

[rangeor]

I've mostly been learning theory and songwriting from my bass/guitar teacher, and he makes it seem easy, so I enjoy it.

 

I still need to sharpen up on my knowledge of chords and keys, though. Moreover I keep forgetting the notes in a diminished chord and a augmented. Really been hindering my piano playing.

I'll make it easy with triads...

 

A major triad is a chord that includes three notes, called the root, the third, and the fifth. In a D Major triad, the D is the root. With Major triads the interval between the root and the third is four half steps, and between the third and the fifth is three half steps. So...

 

D (+1 half step) D# (+1 Half step) E (+1 Half step) F (+1 Half step) = F#. So F# is the third. Then we move three half-steps up from F#...

 

F# (+1 half step) G (+1 half step) G# (+1 half step) = A. So the D major triad includes the notes D, F#, and A.

 

Now when you're forming a minor triad, you just take the third of the major triad and lower it a half step. This changes the interval from the root and the third to three half steps, and increases the interval from the third to the fifth to four half steps. So changing D major to d minor is as simple as either lowering the third a half step or flipping the interval location of the Major triad. I added bold tags around the root, third and fifth:

 

D (+1 half step) D# (+1 Half step) E (+1 Half step) F (+1 Half step) F# (+1 half step) G (+1 half step) G# (+1 half step) A - D F# A - D Major

 

D (+1 half step) D# (+1 Half step) E (+1 Half step) F (+1 Half step) F# (+1 half step) G (+1 half step) G# (+1 half step) A - D F A - d minor

 

Now, once you've got that down, augmented and diminished aren't much different. First, when you diminish something in music you lower it one half-step. When you augment something in music you raise it one half-step. When using diminished and augmented triads, you are affecting the fifth of the chord. However the only tricky thing is when you're diminishing, you're affecting the minor triad and when you're augmenting you're affecting the Major triad. So you take d minor, D F A, and diminish the fifth, making it d diminished, D F Ab. If you want to work with it from a Major triad though, you'll have to convert it to minor first, which isn't difficult at all haha. With augmented triads, you take D Major, D F# A, and augment the fifth, making it D Augmented, D F# A#.

 

I hope that made sense!

[FlameHawk18]

[hide=Quotes]

I've mostly been learning theory and songwriting from my bass/guitar teacher, and he makes it seem easy, so I enjoy it.

 

I still need to sharpen up on my knowledge of chords and keys, though. Moreover I keep forgetting the notes in a diminished chord and a augmented. Really been hindering my piano playing.

I'll make it easy with triads...

 

A major triad is a chord that includes three notes, called the root, the third, and the fifth. In a D Major triad, the D is the root. With Major triads the interval between the root and the third is four half steps, and between the third and the fifth is three half steps. So...

 

D (+1 half step) D# (+1 Half step) E (+1 Half step) F (+1 Half step) = F#. So F# is the third. Then we move three half-steps up from F#...

 

F# (+1 half step) G (+1 half step) G# (+1 half step) = A. So the D major triad includes the notes D, F#, and A.

 

Now when you're forming a minor triad, you just take the third of the major triad and lower it a half step. This changes the interval from the root and the third to three half steps, and increases the interval from the third to the fifth to four half steps. So changing D major to d minor is as simple as either lowering the third a half step or flipping the interval location of the Major triad. I added bold tags around the root, third and fifth:

 

D (+1 half step) D# (+1 Half step) E (+1 Half step) F (+1 Half step) F# (+1 half step) G (+1 half step) G# (+1 half step) A - D F# A - D Major

 

D (+1 half step) D# (+1 Half step) E (+1 Half step) F (+1 Half step) F# (+1 half step) G (+1 half step) G# (+1 half step) A - D F A - d minor

 

Now, once you've got that down, augmented and diminished aren't much different. First, when you diminish something in music you lower it one half-step. When you augment something in music you raise it one half-step. When using diminished and augmented triads, you are affecting the fifth of the chord. However the only tricky thing is when you're diminishing, you're affecting the minor triad and when you're augmenting you're affecting the Major triad. So you take d minor, D F A, and diminish the fifth, making it d diminished, D F Ab. If you want to work with it from a Major triad though, you'll have to convert it to minor first, which isn't difficult at all haha. With augmented triads, you take D Major, D F# A, and augment the fifth, making it D Augmented, D F# A#.

 

I hope that made sense!

[/hide]

The Major and Minor triads, I already knew. But the Augmented and Diminished explanation helped a lot. Thanks. :smile: Really cleared things up.

[Socc]

[hide=quote]

I'm hoping this is the right place to post for songwriting help if I'm a bit stuck...

 

So I have a riff I like and I'll stick it in hide quotes under this, I plan on it being the verse, but when I get to writing the chorus I can't get it to sound good. I play it on acoustic guitar kind of slow like. Heres the riff:

[hide=Awesome Riff I love ]

|---------------------|----------------------|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--0--0----00--0--|--0--0----00--0---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--2--3----55--7--|--2--3----55--7---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

[/hide]

 

I've been trying a chord progression after repeating this a few

but the one I've been trying the B chord hasn't sounded well with it :/

 

Progression:

B-C-D-E

 

I'm not sure If I'm playing the B chord wrong or what but It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the chords I play. If anyone can suggest a better way to help me in my situation I'd really appreciate it!

 

Your first pair of notes are B and G, and there are only two triads that contain those two notes, which are: Gmaj and Emin. From that you can deduce that your song will be in the key of G major or E minor.

 

From there you can apply the rules of chord progressions for each scale. What I did was use the moving notes to form the chord progression. Since the next pair of notes are C and G, I used the Cmaj (IV) triad as the next chord. For the next pair--D and G--I used Dmaj (V). And for the last pair--E and G--I used Emin (VI). So if you decide to use G major as your key, your chord progression would be:

 

I-IV-V-VI (Gmaj, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin).

 

If you decide to use the Eminor scale, you can simply invert the quality of the chords, and go down a third according to the new quality (so if you invert Gmaj to Gmin, you go down a minor third to Emin; if you invert Emin to Emaj, you go down a major third to Cmaj). Once you do that your Eminor scale chord progression would be:

 

I-IV-V-VI (Emin, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj).

 

And if you want to get more specific it would be Eminor in its natural form, since the IV chord is minor.

 

I personally like the sound of the Gmaj progression better, but it's totally up to you to decide which scale to use. Good luck with your song

[/hide]

 

Thank you So so so much!!! That helps alot, but what do the I-IV-V-VI mean? how to play the chord?

[bongo_man]

[hide=quote]

I'm hoping this is the right place to post for songwriting help if I'm a bit stuck...

 

So I have a riff I like and I'll stick it in hide quotes under this, I plan on it being the verse, but when I get to writing the chorus I can't get it to sound good. I play it on acoustic guitar kind of slow like. Heres the riff:

[hide=Awesome Riff I love ]

|---------------------|----------------------|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--0--0----00--0--|--0--0----00--0---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

|--2--3----55--7--|--2--3----55--7---|

|---------------------|----------------------|

[/hide]

 

I've been trying a chord progression after repeating this a few

but the one I've been trying the B chord hasn't sounded well with it :/

 

Progression:

B-C-D-E

 

I'm not sure If I'm playing the B chord wrong or what but It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the chords I play. If anyone can suggest a better way to help me in my situation I'd really appreciate it!

 

Your first pair of notes are B and G, and there are only two triads that contain those two notes, which are: Gmaj and Emin. From that you can deduce that your song will be in the key of G major or E minor.

 

From there you can apply the rules of chord progressions for each scale. What I did was use the moving notes to form the chord progression. Since the next pair of notes are C and G, I used the Cmaj (IV) triad as the next chord. For the next pair--D and G--I used Dmaj (V). And for the last pair--E and G--I used Emin (VI). So if you decide to use G major as your key, your chord progression would be:

 

I-IV-V-VI (Gmaj, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin).

 

If you decide to use the Eminor scale, you can simply invert the quality of the chords, and go down a third according to the new quality (so if you invert Gmaj to Gmin, you go down a minor third to Emin; if you invert Emin to Emaj, you go down a major third to Cmaj). Once you do that your Eminor scale chord progression would be:

 

I-IV-V-VI (Emin, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj).

 

And if you want to get more specific it would be Eminor in its natural form, since the IV chord is minor.

 

I personally like the sound of the Gmaj progression better, but it's totally up to you to decide which scale to use. Good luck with your song

[/hide]

 

Thank you So so so much!!! That helps alot, but what do the I-IV-V-VI mean? how to play the chord?

 

Yes; the Roman Numerals indicate the degree of the given scale--which acts as the root of your traid--and tell you what triad to play. Let's use G major for example:

 

I = Tonic Traid; G is the tonic or 1st degree of G major, therefore the tonic triad is GBD (major)

II = Supertonic Triad; A is the supertonic or 2nd degree of G major, therefore the supertonic triad is ACE (minor)

III = Mediant Triad; B is the mediant/3rd degree, therefore the mediant triad is BDF# (minor)

IV = Subdominat Triad; C is the subdominant/4th degree, therefore the subdominant chord is CEG (major)

V = Dominant Triad; D is the dominant/5th degree, therefore the dominant triad is DF#A (major)

VI = Submediant Triad; E is the submediant/6th degree, therefore the submediant triad is EGB (minor)

VII = Leading Note Triad; F# is the leading note/7th degree, therefore the leading note triad is F#AC (diminished)

 

As you can see there are different qualities of triads for each degree of the scale. These qualities are absolute in the major scale. In the major scale, the I-IV-V triads will always be major; II-III-VI will always be minor; and VII will always be diminished. Try it out with other scales if you want, and you'll get the same results.

 

For minor scales it's a bit different. For the harmonic minor scale (7th note/leading note is raised by a semitone), the V-VI traids are major; I-IV are minor; II-VII are diminished; and III is augmented. The harmonic minor scale is the only scale that contains an augmented triad, which is due to the raised 7th note. But that just makes it all the easier to remember the triad qualities of that scale

 

For the natural minor scale, the III-VI-VII traids are major; I-IV-V are minor; and II is diminished.

 

Hopefully I covered your question without sounding too convaluted

[Shazarabbit]

I haven't really written anything like that since high school, but it's a great past time. Not talented enough to play any instrument really, but I love listening to others.

[depresins]

Theory can be a bit of a double edged sword. I know plenty of people who wrote fantastic music right up until they started learning musical theory. For some people, it locks them into writing patterns they can't get out of.

[FlameHawk18]

I don't know. Learning the amount of music theory I have, it's definitely helped me on all ends of music. Listening, playing, writing, etc.

[Haaa_Haaa0]

so far ive only written two full songs, the first of which i have pretty much disowned (yeah, it was that horrid), and I'm still getting used to the creative process, but my friend usually gives me some of his poetry and i try to match up or create something that fits the flow of the words. Only thing is, he uses more of a free verse style with his poetry, makes matching tempo weird...if anybody wants to hear our only recorded song just youtube "cupid has deadly aim," the vocals need to be rerecorded, and mah solo at the end was pretty much on the spot improv that i want to go back and fix up, we mainly wanted to get something done to get the process under our belts. I would really appreciate feedback. I'm definitely the theory geek in our little group, so the task of writing guitar parts falls to me, but the song we are currently workin on is almost all by my friend.

[assassin_696]

I had to write a few compositions for music GCSE, but they weren't very good. Technically I don't know the first thing about composing, I've forgotten most of the theory i've learnt. And lyrically I'm terrified of anything I would write, I'd just compare it to something by Sam Beam or Dylan and i'd weep.

 

Luckily I have the ability to tell good music from bad music, and my music was bad so I stopped early. One day if I get a little more time maybe i'll learn some theory and give something a go.

[Guest Mrmegakirby]

How important is theory if you want to start writing music? Becuase I really, really want to write something decent, but I took a look at theory, and I couldn't make heads or tails of some parts.