The Obligatory Ice Hockey Thread

[Blyaunte]

i'm not avoiding anything. i have yet to see knight play, seguin's been meh this year compared to other rookies, and i have no idea who they'll draft this year.

 

3 potential busts > proven goal scorer? i don't care if they'll each play for 1M/yr, what matters is if any of them pan out to be as valuable as kessel.

 

Let's compare stats:

 

Phil Kessel: 75 GP / 29 G / 27 A / 56 Points / +/- = -21

 

Now - let's say that the Leafs had done their homework and, by some basic miracle, managed to pick, say, the top three rookies this year, for example:

 

Jeff Skinner: 73 GP 25 G 28 A 53 Points +/- = -1

Logan Couture: 72 GP 28 G 22 A 50 Points +/- = 16

Michael Grabner: 71 GP 31G 17A 48 Points +/- = 17

 

That's just this year alone. That's not comparing what these kids will do next year or in three years' time ...

 

Hell - even if we pick any three rookies out of the top ten rookies this year, they all provide nearly equal production to Kessel alone, and all of them together is a better deal than just him.

 

Seriously - there is no way whatsoever you can justify that Phil Kessel is worth this much in draft picks. EVER.

[Faux]

except that skinner (i don't think grabner/couture was in that class draft) was never in the overall #1 discussion. it was always either hall or seguin.

 

i'm not justifying it. i never said i'll do that trade. i wouldn't. but i just don't think kessel is as worthless as other people say he is.

[obfuscator]

Grabner was a pick from the 2006 draft.

 

See Bly, the problem you've got is you're attempting to qualify Kessel against players that we just don't know yet. You also do realize that toronto didn't give up three picks in the first 10, right?

 

We know (to a reasonable extent) that Kessel is a 30 goal scorer, maybe even a 40 with the right linemates. You do realize that not all draft picks pan out, right? It's entirely possible that seguin, knight and whoever they take this year all end up never making it as nhl players - in which case the trade would be a steal for toronto. You just don't know at this point.

 

As for Gustavsson - he has played extremely well in the past and even this year for some of it. I still think that given toronto's past goaltending problems it would be extremely foolish to give up on him so soon.

[foursideking]

Yguy, the problem you have in your arguement is 2-fold. 1: you are assuming that kessel will remain consistant over the next couple years, and 2: your logic regarding gustavvson makes no sense from a leafs standpoint.

 

Kessel could easily get cruddy over the next few seasons, and become the leaf's version of kovalchuk. Your arguement is that the rookies are unreliable? Every nhl player has a part of their career where they perform horribly/'slide'. For kessel, that could easily be next season.

 

Gustavvson, well, it is highly irrational that they'll keep him due to the way the organization works. They take decent 'backup' goalies, make them their starters, and expect them to perform at a level that many of them have never seen/reached. Then, if, or should I say when, they do a bad job, they blame the goalies/trade'm off, thus repeating the cycle. Break the cycle, and toronto could legitimately have good goaltending.

[obfuscator]

Yguy, the problem you have in your arguement is 2-fold. 1: you are assuming that kessel will remain consistant over the next couple years, and 2: your logic regarding gustavvson makes no sense from a leafs standpoint.

 

I never said that we know Kessel will remain consistent. Realistically, however, he has been a consistent 30 goal scorer. Without any reason to think otherwise logically we should assume he will keep that place.

 

Kessel could easily get cruddy over the next few seasons, and become the leaf's version of kovalchuk. Your arguement is that the rookies are unreliable? Every nhl player has a part of their career where they perform horribly/'slide'. For kessel, that could easily be next season.

 

I also never said that rookies are unreliable. What I said was (which is completely true by the way) is that not all prospects pan out as nhl players. It is unfair to try to fully judge this trade before we've seen (a) who exactly boston picks this year, and (b) how the players boston picks adapt in the nhl.

 

Yes, it's entirely possible that Kessel slumps next season and ends up tanking. Yes, it's entirely possible that seguin, mcknight, and the unknown from this year all end up having 400goal + nhl careers. However, you just don't know. You don't. I don't think we'll fully be able to judge the Kessel trade until probably the 2014-2015 season.

 

 

Gustavvson, well, it is highly irrational that they'll keep him due to the way the organization works. They take decent 'backup' goalies, make them their starters, and expect them to perform at a level that many of them have never seen/reached. Then, if, or should I say when, they do a bad job, they blame the goalies/trade'm off, thus repeating the cycle. Break the cycle, and toronto could legitimately have good goaltending.

 

This makes absolutely no sense. Both Gustavsson and Reimer have potential as starters - it's completely nonsensical to write off gustavsson before he's even played a full nhl season.

 

My predictions, realistically, are the following.

 

Kessel - continues at a 30 goal per season pace for at least the next 3-4 years. May do more if they can get a center.

 

Seguin - probably has a good sophomore year next season - I could see him getting low-mid 20's in goals and 50 points. Not quite kessel but getting there.

Knight - probably will go pro with providence next year and maybe play for the bruins in the 12-13 season. If he's got the work ethic I think he could be a decent second or third liner.

 

Unknown for this year - pick will probably end up around the middle of the first round. Whoever it is likely goes to providence for 11-12 and bruins for 12-13.

 

Give those another two years to see how they do, and by the 14-15 or 15-16 seasons we should have all the information we need.

[Blyaunte]

Give those another two years to see how they do, and by the 14-15 or 15-16 seasons we should have all the information we need.

 

By which time the Bruins will be in a Stanley Cup final, and the Leafs will be scraping by to just get into the playoffs.

 

This is the problem with Leafs fans, you know. You think it's great to just get into the playoffs, when every other team in the NHL already knows that 8th place is like fool's gold ...

 

:rolleyes:

[obfuscator]

Give those another two years to see how they do, and by the 14-15 or 15-16 seasons we should have all the information we need.

 

By which time the Bruins will be in a Stanley Cup final, and the Leafs will be scraping by to just get into the playoffs.

 

This is the problem with Leafs fans, you know. You think it's great to just get into the playoffs, when every other team in the NHL already knows that 8th place is like fool's gold ...

 

:rolleyes:

 

Lol what. I never said making the playoffs is the be all and end all. Of course every team wants to make the playoffs, but yes, i realize typically 8th place does nothing. I honestly don't see the leafs still "scraping to get in" by 14-15.

[Blyaunte]

Give those another two years to see how they do, and by the 14-15 or 15-16 seasons we should have all the information we need.

 

By which time the Bruins will be in a Stanley Cup final, and the Leafs will be scraping by to just get into the playoffs.

 

This is the problem with Leafs fans, you know. You think it's great to just get into the playoffs, when every other team in the NHL already knows that 8th place is like fool's gold ...

 

:rolleyes:

 

Lol what. I never said making the playoffs is the be all and end all. Of course every team wants to make the playoffs, but yes, i realize typically 8th place does nothing. I honestly don't see the leafs still "scraping to get in" by 14-15.

 

Not *you* in particular, hun -- just Leafs fans in general. I was merely extrapolating that from your comments without actually being fair. Sorry.

 

Let me rant for a bit:

 

That said -- this is precisely why the Kessel deal is a fool's errand. To trade away your future prospects in favour of a mediocre player that his own team (Boston) didn't want, for the possibility that you may make the 8th place playoff spot, was pure folly. Burke should have known that. Gawd only knows what he was thinking at the time.

 

Especially THEN when you consider the deadweight that Toronto had when Burke pulled the trigger, and even now that the Leafs tanked and Boston got the 2nd pick over all. Think what would have happened had the Leafs kept their #1 and #2 picks in 2010.

 

Instead, they didn't even get a 1st round pick -- and didn't pick until 43rd overall. Brutal. Positively brutal. This year they will finish 10th and they won't get any of the top-5's. Next year they will finish 9th and again won't get a top 5. By the time Kessel's done and gone with the Leafs -- he won't stick around -- the Leafs will have nothing, got nothing and gone nowhere.

 

.. and the odd part is -- YOU. You, the Leafs fan, should be morally outraged. YOU, the Leafs fan, should be screaming at the ownership/management over this epic Ballard-like-[bleep]-up. But no -- you'll sit there and make excuses about how Kessel isn't a terrible player and how his mediocre talents will make up for the total lack of top-notch world-class talent and leadership your half-assed team COULD have had, and won a Cup.

 

But no - instead, Leafs fans will be happy with "making the playoffs" and watch for another 5-10 years while their team fails, again and again, to even make a Cup final ...

 

[/rant]

 

Thanks, <3:

[obfuscator]

 

 

Not *you* in particular, hun -- just Leafs fans in general. I was merely extrapolating that from your comments without actually being fair. Sorry.

 

Fair enough.

 

Let me rant for a bit:

 

That said -- this is precisely why the Kessel deal is a fool's errand. To trade away your future prospects in favour of a mediocre player that his own team (Boston) didn't want, for the possibility that you may make the 8th place playoff spot, was pure folly. Burke should have known that. Gawd only knows what he was thinking at the time.

 

A 30 goal scorer is a mediocre player? Never heard that one before. You could argue he's slightly overpaid, but sorry - no 30 goal scorer is a mediocre player. Player that Boston didn't want? That's completley untrue. They tried to resign him - he refused. He demanded to be traded. Boston certainly wanted to keep him around - which is precisely why the price was so high.

 

What burke was thinking is that he had to add some legitimate talent. Kessel was that, so he did it. The price was high, and we may see it was far too high. But there's no denying that the leafs are a better team now (with kessel) then the were before he got here.

 

Especially THEN when you consider the deadweight that Toronto had when Burke pulled the trigger, and even now that the Leafs tanked and Boston got the 2nd pick over all. Think what would have happened had the Leafs kept their #1 and #2 picks in 2010.

 

Yup, burke didn't think they would end up tanking that badly. Still, hindsight is 20 20...

 

Instead, they didn't even get a 1st round pick -- and didn't pick until 43rd overall. Brutal. Positively brutal. This year they will finish 10th and they won't get any of the top-5's. Next year they will finish 9th and again won't get a top 5. By the time Kessel's done and gone with the Leafs -- he won't stick around -- the Leafs will have nothing, got nothing and gone nowhere.

 

You're dealing in purely negatives - I honestly can't see them finishing 9th next year - nor that kessel won't be around before the end of his contract.

 

.. and the odd part is -- YOU. You, the Leafs fan, should be morally outraged. YOU, the Leafs fan, should be screaming at the ownership/management over this epic Ballard-like-[bleep]-up. But no -- you'll sit there and make excuses about how Kessel isn't a terrible player and how his mediocre talents will make up for the total lack of top-notch world-class talent and leadership your half-assed team COULD have had, and won a Cup.

 

But no - instead, Leafs fans will be happy with "making the playoffs" and watch for another 5-10 years while their team fails, again and again, to even make a Cup final ...

 

[/rant]

 

Thanks, <3:

 

Once again, you're making things up. Kessel is not the saviour of the leafs franchise. But he is a consistent 30 goal scorer, and that's something the leafs need.

 

I'm not morally outraged. You know why? Because I've been a leafs fan for 15 years, and for the first time I actually really like the team. We've got a ton of excellent, young players, and even more excellent, young prospects. Our goaltending, while uncertain, certainly looks promising.

 

I don't understand why you consider Seguin to be "world class talent" when his rookie season has been mediocre. How you extrapolate leadership from him, I've no idea...

 

I'm not saying that he won't turn out to be an excellent player. I still think you're assuming he's going to be a franchise guy when that's far from certain.

[foursideking]

And yet again yguy, your arguement leaves enough points to let me create my own 'arguement superpower'. I have a reasonable idea: let's remove the variable of 'future points/assists', and assume that they all score the same amount. Realistically, kessel is 'older' than seguin/hall. Therefore, even if they both score the same amount, kessel will only really be playing for 13-14yrs (assuming he retires at 41). Compare that to the 21-22yrs with the rookies, and you can still see that the deal was horrible.

 

Blyaunte, you call that a rant? I mean c'mon, you didn't even mention the fact that the leafs will now have to contend with an overall stronger bruins team. And with only 8 playoff spots, it makes it that more tough to make the playoffs. Kinda ironic though if you think about it. Even blyaunte, one of the oldest people on these forums, wasn't alive when the leafs last won the cup. And judging by the 'good decisions' they're making, she's probably not gonna be alive when the leafs next win the cup.

[Blyaunte]

Even Blyaunte, one of the oldest people on these forums, wasn't alive when the leafs last won the cup. And judging by the 'good decisions' they're making, she's probably not gonna be alive when the leafs next win the cup.

 

LOL'd irl. :lol:

 

To Yguy: Yes, a 30-goal scorer with a +/- of (-21) IS a mediocre player ...

[obfuscator]

And yet again yguy, your arguement leaves enough points to let me create my own 'arguement superpower'. I have a reasonable idea: let's remove the variable of 'future points/assists', and assume that they all score the same amount. Realistically, kessel is 'older' than seguin/hall. Therefore, even if they both score the same amount, kessel will only really be playing for 13-14yrs (assuming he retires at 41). Compare that to the 21-22yrs with the rookies, and you can still see that the deal was horrible.

 

Blyaunte, you call that a rant? I mean c'mon, you didn't even mention the fact that the leafs will now have to contend with an overall stronger bruins team. And with only 8 playoff spots, it makes it that more tough to make the playoffs. Kinda ironic though if you think about it. Even blyaunte, one of the oldest people on these forums, wasn't alive when the leafs last won the cup. And judging by the 'good decisions' they're making, she's probably not gonna be alive when the leafs next win the cup.

 

Why are we talking about hall? He doesn't play for the bruins. Kessel is also 23 - giving him 18 years if he plays till 41.

 

Even Blyaunte, one of the oldest people on these forums, wasn't alive when the leafs last won the cup. And judging by the 'good decisions' they're making, she's probably not gonna be alive when the leafs next win the cup.

 

LOL'd irl. :lol:

 

To Yguy: Yes, a 30-goal scorer with a +/- of (-21) IS a mediocre player ...

 

Ahh of course.

So you consider (for example) Erik staal, John Tavares, Matt Moulson, Matt Duchene, Patrick Marleau, Illya Kovalchuk, Andrew Ladd, Martin St. Louis all to be mediocre players? Give me a break.

 

Yeah, Kessel's +/- is pretty bad. It doesn't automatically make him a mediocre player.

[foursideking]

@yguy: now you're just being nonsensical. Comparing kessel to be 'equal' to many of those players is asanine, especially when many of them have had 70-80point seasons averaged.

[obfuscator]

Kessel has more goals than half of them - and they all have bad +/-'s.

[Blyaunte]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/app?service=page&page=playerstats&fetchKey=20112ALLSASAll&viewName=points&sort=plusMinus&pg=29

 

Kessel's +/- is terrible. His -21 puts him at 861st in the league in that category. 861st out of 871.

 

You're telling me he's not a mediocre player? Seriously? 861st? There's only 10 other guys in the league who or a worse defensive liability.

 

You're drinking WAY too much blue Kool Aid, hun ... :unsure:

[foursideking]

Kessel also has more goals than brodeur, so I guess he should be in net for them too. Facts are, people care more about overall points than just goals alone. Look at the assists totals, and you can see that they're practically even, and that kessel is pretty low on the 'points total totem pole'. You keep trying to make the kessel deal seem like a good thing, when in all actuality, it was horrible considering they were supposed to be 'rebuilding'.

[obfuscator]

I'm not trying to make it a good thing. It's just, you guys are acting like they picked up Alex Daigle here...

[foursideking]

When in reality, they picked up the forward version of toskala.

[obfuscator]

I'm sorry, but that's not true. He's a proven thirty goal scorer with a bad +/-. That hardly makes him toskala.

[Blyaunte]

I'm not trying to make it a good thing. It's just, you guys are acting like they picked up Alex Daigle here...

 

Well no - of course not - Alexandre Daigle had talent and skills ... :lol:

 

Oh -- and if you look at Daigle's stats -- they're comparable to Kessels, and Daigle played for a much weaker team.

[Faux]

http://www.nhl.com/i...plusMinus&pg=29

 

Kessel's +/- is terrible. His -21 puts him at 861st in the league in that category. 861st out of 871.

 

You're telling me he's not a mediocre player? Seriously? 861st? There's only 10 other guys in the league who or a worse defensive liability.

 

You're drinking WAY too much blue Kool Aid, hun ... :unsure:

 

he was +23 in his last year in Boston

 

man was he a Selke nominee that year?

 

Lidstrom is -2 and Gunnarsson is +1. Obviously Gunnarsson is the better Dman this season right?

[Blyaunte]

http://www.nhl.com/i...plusMinus&pg=29

 

Kessel's +/- is terrible. His -21 puts him at 861st in the league in that category. 861st out of 871.

 

You're telling me he's not a mediocre player? Seriously? 861st? There's only 10 other guys in the league who or a worse defensive liability.

 

You're drinking WAY too much blue Kool Aid, hun ... :unsure:

 

he was +23 in his last year in Boston

 

man was he a Selke nominee that year?

 

His career +/- is (-24) in four seasons. <_<

[obfuscator]

And Vinny Lecavalier is -113 on his career. Your point?

 

+/- isn't everything.

[foursideking]

I like a thread where we all agree.../sarcasm

 

Yguy and faux saying that the leafs could win the cup next season,

Blyaunte saying that their players are too horrible to win.

 

Meanwhile, I'm sitting on the back porch sipping purple kool-aid, watching this, trying to find the words 'hell freezes over' so I can support yguy's arguements.

[Faux]

umm yeah i never said the team will win the cup next year. don't do that, that's irritating