The Obligatory Ice Hockey Thread

[obfuscator]

umm yeah i never said the team will win the cup next year. don't do that, that's irritating

I also never said that either. All I'm saying is that you can't prove they screwed themselves over on the kessel trade.

[All_Is_Great]

I used to think like Blyaunte, where +/- was a good way to judge whether or not a player was good.

 

And let me just say this, it certainly plays a factor, but it's not the most important stat to look at. The problem with p/m is it depends on the other 5 or 4 players on the ice, and many times, a minus on one player was the direct result of a brain fart by another player. Say Kessel and his linemates jumps onto the ice, boom bad change, because Phaneuf and co. just suddenly decides to go off as well. And there goes Stamkos on a breakaway! He scores!!! Are you honestly gonna blame Kessel for that? Of course not, it's bearing is on the whole team.

 

I have the misfourtune of being a fan of two pretty bad teams, Edm and Minny, their goal differential is minus who knows how many. But can you honestly say Taylor Hall, who's probably a minus 10 ish, is a mediocre player? I don't think so, no mediocre player can change games in the blink of an eye in his rookie year nonetheless! Same example on Minny, players like Brent Burns (some awful giveaways lately btw) and Havlat are both in the minuses, but does that mean they're mediocre? I don't think so. They're not in the top elite group (as of now, hopefully Burns can get there), but that doesn't put them in a mediocre group.

 

Then you look at a roster like the Canucks (just for example), and you see players like Torres with a plus rating. That's the direct result of playing on a good team.

 

Stats important for a goalscoring forward, first and foremost, goals and assists. Then their points per game rate, shots (shows how many chances they get), PPG, GWG, etc. +/- is certainly not a reasonable reason to lable Kessel as "mediocre".

[obfuscator]

snip

 

Best post on this thread haha.

 

But yeah, you're right. Obviously a bad +/- isn't a good thing, but it's directly relative to who you play with. I think Kessel does sometimes have problems with backchecking but during other games he's been excellent.

 

For forwards, I think your center most affects +/-, since he's always supposed to be the first one back. And indeed, looking at the leafs stats shows Bozak with the worst +/-, not kessel. I like Bozak but he's having a pretty bad year and I think he should be a third line center rather than a first line one.

 

No luck for the leafs last night, both car and buf won.

[foursideking]

And yet the 'rebuilding' idea gets ignored by the leafs, even though they're supposed to be rebuilding, right? Truth be told, if kessel doesn't score more than 80 goals in the next 2 seasons, then he'll probably be gone too. Facts are: leafs said they were going to rebuild, so they brought in burke. Since then, burke's turned them into a weaker detroit team, and traded off a bunch of their picks for some reason. Are the leafs cup ready now? If they were, then doing all of this would've been ok. Thing is though, they're nowhere near ready, leaving huge questions, namely 'why is brian burke, an experienced/veteran gm, doing this?'

[obfuscator]

And yet the 'rebuilding' idea gets ignored by the leafs, even though they're supposed to be rebuilding, right? Truth be told, if kessel doesn't score more than 80 goals in the next 2 seasons, then he'll probably be gone too. Facts are: leafs said they were going to rebuild, so they brought in burke. Since then, burke's turned them into a weaker detroit team, and traded off a bunch of their picks for some reason. Are the leafs cup ready now? If they were, then doing all of this would've been ok. Thing is though, they're nowhere near ready, leaving huge questions, namely 'why is brian burke, an experienced/veteran gm, doing this?'

How are the leafs ignoring the rebuild? They just traded away three veteran players for prospects and draft picks.....

 

How are the leafs anything like a weaker detroit?

[All_Is_Great]

Like I said, when your trying to catch someone, it always seems like they're winning when your winning. It's tough <_<

 

But Oilers vs Flames tonight!!!! If the Oilers have to win at least one game since the loss of Hall and Gagner, this had better be the one. They better have this game marked on their calendars and give it their all. I don't care if they lose the rest, just beat Calgary and wipe out their playoff hopes :shades:

[foursideking]

The leafs have been bleeding draft picks since they got burke, and rather than focus on 'getting veterans to teach the rookies', it's all been about 'let's make the playoffs, who cares if we're nowhere near ready'. Burke bringing in giguere, and getting rid of that first rounder was the hockey version of ringing the giant bronze bell/rallying the troops for war. Question is though, was there any point of getting them ready for a war they couldn't win? The leafs need to actually start fully rebuilding. They've been ignoring it every season, and instead, when they've won a few before the deadline, have just said 'f''k it, it's playoff time', trading away their shot at a dynasty for a goal they can never accomplish. During this year's deadline, they traded a few players and finally got some picks. But in the case of building/rebuilding, 'some materials' doesn't build a house.

[obfuscator]

Apparently the leafs playoff hopes have gone down the drain as of that loss lol. Surprised it's taken people that long to realize they weren't going to win every single game. Realistically, the way Buf and NY have been playing even if the leafs went 7-0-0 over the last 7 they still wouldn't have made it.

 

Signed,

 

A leafs fan, aka "next year"

[foursideking]

Dear leafs fan,

 

We don't pity/feel bad for you. One of the key traits of leafs fans is their hopes of 'making the post season', followed by a sudden ignorance/arrogance during the summer. Pick a better team

 

Signed,

 

Us logical people

[fastortoise]

Dear leafs fan,

 

We don't pity/feel bad for you. One of the key traits of leafs fans is their hopes of 'making the post season', followed by a sudden ignorance/arrogance during the summer. Pick a better team

 

Signed,

 

Us logical people

Don't forget another key trait of the leafs as a dynasty: 1967 <3:

[Faux]

gonna stay away from this thread til the leafs trolling is over

[foursideking]

@faux: good luck, considering yguy's a leafs fan and just about every other regular isn't/doesn't like the leafs.

 

On topic though: anyone else interested to see how chicago does this year? They remove the goaltenders, but effectively keep everything else in tact. Even still, my spidey senses say they'll get picked off in 6 games.

[obfuscator]

Chicago didn't just give up the goaltenders, they lost a lot more.

 

I could still see them doing fairly well in the playoffs (if they make it).

 

And faux, the leaf trolling never ends. My theory is that most of the trolls are just ex-leafs fans who are ashamed that they've jumped ship. Fair weather fans, ya know? :P

[All_Is_Great]

gonna stay away from this thread til the leafs trolling is over

 

Yah Ikr? It's like the TSN comments where EVERY SINGLE game has people bashing the leafs on it. Jeez, don't have anything better to do??? And what's wrong with wanting to make the playoffs? For a rebuilding team like the leafs, that's as good a goal as any. What's wrong with feeling good about making the playoffs? I would kill to see some playoff action in Edm or Minny.

 

I haven't watched my teams win in like 3 weeks btw <_<

 

Last night's game, what a BRUTAL call on Hartikainen, what interference? Jokinen was right next to the puck. Thanks refs, once again got something against the Oilers.

[unkn0wnwarrior]

@faux: good luck, considering yguy's a leafs fan and just about every other regular isn't/doesn't like the leafs.

 

On topic though: anyone else interested to see how chicago does this year? They remove the goaltenders, but effectively keep everything else in tact. Even still, my spidey senses say they'll get picked off in 6 games.

Chicago gave up a lot more than the goalies. Byfuglien comes to mind, as do Versteeg and Ladd. Those 3 were worth a combined 54 goals last year. Add the goalies to that and you already have a quarter of the team gone. And there are probably more, but I don't follow the 'Hawks very closely. I barely pay attention to the Western Conference until playoffs.

 

And I am a Leafs fan, but I knew from the start we weren't going to make it. I admit that Reimer had gotten my hopes up some for a while, though.

[foursideking]

Time to answer all the lf's 'question rants'.

 

When you rebuild, like the leafs were planning on doing, your goal shouldn't be making the playoffs, it should be trying to accumulate picks/'slowing down'. Making the playoffs during a rebuild is pretty horrible, and here's why:

 

Let's say the leafs were in the middle of a 5yr rebuild. They make the playoffs, and for some unknown reason make it to the finals/'win the cup'. The leafs were on pace to build a dynasty, but after winning the cup, many could argue that now they 'don't need to'. So they get rid of a few players, add some new ones, and forget the entire rebuild idea ever existed. Next year, they place last in their conference, but why? The rebuild wasn't complete, thus meaning the 'dynasty' they thought they had was in all actuality just a very lucky team. So they start the rebuild over again, spend another 5 years 'rebuilding the rebuild', and once this rebuild is complete, their team goes on to win 5 cups in 15 yrs (heavily unrealistic, but possible with the right build).

 

I'm not arguing that their belief of winning the cup is bad/wrong, it just isn't the one they should be focusing on now. Question to yguy/every other leaf's fan: would you rather have a team like edmonton, winning one cup before having to change the team completely? Or would you rather have a team like detroit, which has always been a top-level threat/has always had a good shot at winning the cup for the past decade?

 

Logic complete, time to watch as the leafs fans fireball my perfectly good logic.

[obfuscator]

Who says the leafs are in a 5 year rebuild? Brian Burke has maintained since he came to Toronto that tanking for draft picks was never his goal.

 

If the leafs were trying to do a complete rebuild, I'd agree with you completely. But they aren't.

[foursideking]

The 5yr rebuild was a part of the example. Truth be told though, in order for the leafs to not be a complete edmonton copy, then they need a FULL rebuild. They shouldn't purposely be tanking as well. They just shouldn't be too worried if they make the playoffs/'hoping to make it to the scf'.

[unkn0wnwarrior]

Logic complete, time to watch as the leafs fans fireball my perfectly good logic.

Perfectly good? Not really. But not entirely wrong, either. That is ONE of any number of possible outcomes. They could also make the playoffs, maybe win the cup, identify reasons they could (or maybe should) not have and strengthen those areas, and be a much stronger team the following year. Or they could try to strengthen those areas and end up worse.

 

Also, I never liked the idea of tanking, either.

[obfuscator]

I agree. Plenty of teams have managed to be competitive without tanking terribly (new jersey and detroit come to mind).

[foursideking]

detroit was build off rookies though yguy, which kinda proves my point. Also, many teams have gone/stayed among the elite once they've built their dynasty. Remember the kings back in 2005? They were a sh'tty, toronto-esque team with just about the same ideals as the leafs (namely, patchwork is 'just as good' as a rebuild, and it's always good to trade draft picks for other teams' junk). They scrapped that belief in 2007, and rebuilt their team near-completely. Now, they're downright scary, and rarely worry about cap space due to the low costs of many of their players.

[obfuscator]

detroit was build off rookies though yguy, which kinda proves my point. Also, many teams have gone/stayed among the elite once they've built their dynasty. Remember the kings back in 2005? They were a sh'tty, toronto-esque team with just about the same ideals as the leafs (namely, patchwork is 'just as good' as a rebuild, and it's always good to trade draft picks for other teams' junk). They scrapped that belief in 2007, and rebuilt their team near-completely. Now, they're downright scary, and rarely worry about cap space due to the low costs of many of their players.

Detroit's last rebuild was 20+ years ago. They've remained competitive without tanking since then.

 

The kings are downright scary? They were barely making the playoffs for the first half of the season....They'll be worrying about cap space pretty quickly as well.

[Blyaunte]

Time to answer all the lf's 'question rants'.

 

When you rebuild, like the leafs were planning on doing, your goal shouldn't be making the playoffs, it should be trying to accumulate picks/'slowing down'. Making the playoffs during a rebuild is pretty horrible, and here's why:

 

Let's say the leafs were in the middle of a 5yr rebuild. They make the playoffs, and for some unknown reason make it to the finals/'win the cup'. The leafs were on pace to build a dynasty, but after winning the cup, many could argue that now they 'don't need to'. So they get rid of a few players, add some new ones, and forget the entire rebuild idea ever existed. Next year, they place last in their conference, but why? The rebuild wasn't complete, thus meaning the 'dynasty' they thought they had was in all actuality just a very lucky team. So they start the rebuild over again, spend another 5 years 'rebuilding the rebuild', and once this rebuild is complete, their team goes on to win 5 cups in 15 yrs (heavily unrealistic, but possible with the right build).

 

I'm not arguing that their belief of winning the cup is bad/wrong, it just isn't the one they should be focusing on now. Question to yguy/every other leaf's fan: would you rather have a team like edmonton, winning one cup before having to change the team completely? Or would you rather have a team like detroit, which has always been a top-level threat/has always had a good shot at winning the cup for the past decade?

 

Logic complete, time to watch as the leafs fans fireball my perfectly good logic.

 

Honestly, what more can you expect from people who STILL think that Wendel Clark was a half-decent hockey player? :rolleyes:

 

Seriously -- Leafs fans are, at times, a pretty thick lot. Sure +/- is only as good as the other four guys on the ice and the goaltender. Which is why trading away three potential top-notch players for a mediocre player like Kessel makes even less sense. Kessel is not an elite level player. He's nowhere those other players for which you would/should trade your team's future. Plain and simple. Kessel will NEVER be an elite level player.

 

In the meantime, the Leafs have traded away three (3) potential ELITE level players for one middling level player with a poor work ethic and a historically bad +/-, and then doled out millions in payroll to him -- and keep in mind, this is a guy who is, historically a 30-40 goal scorer, which means that, even with his production, the opposition still generates 20+ more goals a season than he produces.

 

As I said, there's only 9 or 10 guys in the league with a worse +/- rating -- and the Leafs fans ignored that very fact. Well - not ignored it. They closed their eyes and covered their ears and went "LALALALALALLALA" in hoping that it'd go away. :rolleyes:

 

Only goes to prove that one reason the Leafs will never win a Cup, or make it to a Cup final, is because the Leafs' fan-base lacks sufficient hockey-sense to drag out torches and pitchforks to demand a better team.

 

Then again, Burke traded for Phaneuf, and his defensive lapses are so gawd-awful they make normal-minded hockey folk cringe ...

[Blyaunte]

detroit was build off rookies though yguy, which kinda proves my point. Also, many teams have gone/stayed among the elite once they've built their dynasty. Remember the kings back in 2005? They were a sh'tty, toronto-esque team with just about the same ideals as the leafs (namely, patchwork is 'just as good' as a rebuild, and it's always good to trade draft picks for other teams' junk). They scrapped that belief in 2007, and rebuilt their team near-completely. Now, they're downright scary, and rarely worry about cap space due to the low costs of many of their players.

Detroit's last rebuild was 20+ years ago. They've remained competitive without tanking since then.

 

The kings are downright scary? They were barely making the playoffs for the first half of the season....They'll be worrying about cap space pretty quickly as well.

 

Detroit's been building FOR the past 20 years. I've already listed their cup-winning draft picks since Yzerman.

 

... and yes, thanks for playing the typical Leafs fan "bait and switch" ploy: "Yes, our team is terrible but -- LOOK -- there's OTHER teams that are terrible right now too!!!!"

 

Way to go! Way to ignore the fact that, with the exception of some very few expansion teams, the Leafs have failed to even make it to a single Stanley Cup Final since 1967.

 

Go Leafs! :rolleyes:

[obfuscator]

You seem quite certain all three of boston's draft picks will turn out to be the next 3 versions of sidney crosby...

 

You also seem quite determined to mindlessly bash toronto fans at every opportunity, and the wendel clark comment proves it. A checker who had an 80 point season, a bad player? Are you out of your mind?

 

In Blyaunte world, it seems that anyone short of ovi is a terrible player. Next you'll try to tell us that BB was an idiot for drafting the Sedins :rolleyes:

 

Oh, and my comment about detroit was answering his. Not swaying away from the point.

 

As for Phaneuf? Yeah, he has a habit of making bad pinches. That said, when he's on his game he's a force to be reckoned with.