Same-Sex Marriage

[Aliath]

romy, wiki tries to be unbiased and objective in the presentation of facts. Half of the Bible is set in timeperiods far before the ones you mentioned.

 

Alaith, isn't that the reason why you came here in the first place? I mean, a little rewording to the last part of your last sentence to get rid of the negative connontation and wala!

 

Saruman44, what do you suggest to fix the problem?

 

But they won't let it go, and they're being pretty aggressive with it. Challenging me, basically. I'm not looking for hostile exchanges in a debate.

[Skeptical]

And now we're going in circles.

 

 

That's what happens when one side supports an argument according to emotional or social prejudice instead of rational moral and scientific reasoning.

[Alg]

And now we're going in circles.

 

 

That's what happens when one side supports an argument according to emotional or social prejudice instead of rational moral and scientific reasoning.

Actually in this case it's what happens when both sides try to assume they're right on the grounds that the other person is wrong and refuse to really explain why. Both sides were guilty of this, so no need to feel superior about anything.

 

I'm as much a fan of the scientific explanation as anyone else. I just don't like the elitism that comes with it. As your post exemplifies :grin:

[qeltar]

I'm as much a fan of the scientific explanation as anyone else. I just don't like the elitism that comes with it. As your post exemplifies :grin:

Sometimes things are considered "elite" for a reason.

[Alg]

I'm as much a fan of the scientific explanation as anyone else. I just don't like the elitism that comes with it. As your post exemplifies :grin:

Sometimes things are considered "elite" for a reason.

True.

[Saru Inc]

romy, wiki tries to be unbiased and objective in the presentation of facts. Half of the Bible is set in timeperiods far before the ones you mentioned.

 

Alaith, isn't that the reason why you came here in the first place? I mean, a little rewording to the last part of your last sentence to get rid of the negative connontation and wala!

 

Saruman44, what do you suggest to fix the problem?

 

But they won't let it go, and they're being pretty aggressive with it. Challenging me, basically. I'm not looking for hostile exchanges in a debate.

 

 

I'm not being hostile, and I'm not trolling. But you were acting like a know-it-all, and I see debating as a form of learning, so naturally I, don't know everything. ( not even close) So you know what? I don't "research" all of my debate points, and if a comment I make seems 'far' out there, perhaps it is. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm ok with that there's a lot out there I don't know, and this is my way of finidng out. Anyways, if these are the arguments you referenced as being wrong:

 

"1)Ok, to answer your first part, it is very much true, however I never said it was bad. From my personal experience, I'd have to say the ratio of promiscuous to non promiscuous gay people is without a doubt 2 to 1 at the very least, I've noticed a large difference, as have my friends from other areas. Besides, I said I was guessing.

 

2)Marriage IS a religious thing, because the it came from the Bible. Thats why I say, that as much as I disagree with it, pastors\the church\the state should be allowed to say its only between a man\woman. Because its based on Religious rules, and so its bound to be a bit unfair.

 

3) Studies show children need a feminine, and masculine influences in their life to grow up healthy and well-adjusted. Now as its possible to have maybe a really good friend who comes over often, or a grandma\grandpa, having a same sex couple simply will not do. And have you noticed its hard for single people to adopt as well? Same reason, they need a masculine AND feminine influence.

"

 

Then please, in all seriousness, prove me wrong.

 

1) You can't prove me wrong, becuase this is from my personal experience, not yours.

 

2) You can't prove me wrong, because based on my belief system (Christianity) I believe that the religion of Judaism\Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

 

 

3) Good luck proving me wrong, while I cannot find a link of it online, there was a chapter in my Psychology book regarding sexuality and the brain in general, and this study was not only very ummm... important I guess you could say, but well known.

 

So, please, prove me wrong.

 

 

ot: There are ants all over my room wtf >.>

[Alg]

Unless I'm wrong the Bible acknowledges the existence of pre-Christian religions though. Christianity itself dates back just under 2,000 years because that's when they say Jesus was born. To the Bible that leaves a few thousand years where marriage was notr dictated by Christian beliefs, and for evolution that leaves howevermany thousands of years humans were around before then (20,000 or so?)

Yes, the Bible gives its version of marriage, and that may be the modern version, but regardless the concept existed in one form or another long before.

 

But belief systems should still be able to have their own say on what their marriages are. Have the Government as a 'public option'.

[Romy]

2) You can't prove me wrong, because based on my belief system (Christianity) I believe that the religion of Judaism\Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

 

Actually, there's proof that Earth existed for billions and billions of years, while Judiasm/Christianity claim it existed for about... 7K years or so?

[Aliath]

3) Studies show children need a feminine, and masculine influences in their life to grow up healthy and well-adjusted. Now as its possible to have maybe a really good friend who comes over often, or a grandma\grandpa, having a same sex couple simply will not do. And have you noticed its hard for single people to adopt as well? Same reason, they need a masculine AND feminine influence.

 

Because same-sex people don't have mothers/fathers/grandparents! That's brilliant logic! I never would have guessed!

 

Now, applying that logic, single parents should have their children taken away from them because they're unfit, yes?

 

I don't "research" all of my debate points

 

You should. That's the point of a debate, to present facts.

[qeltar]

Quite a set of logical fallacies on display here...

 

1) You can't prove me wrong, becuase this is from my personal experience, not yours.

No, nobody can negate your personal experience. But we CAN point out that your personal experience -- assuming you are being honest -- doesn't necessarily imply anything general.

 

If the only Christian person I know is a priest who turns out to be a pedophile, that doesn't mean that all Christians are pedophiles.

 

2) You can't prove me wrong, because based on my belief system (Christianity) I believe that the religion of Judaism\Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

You can believe any silly fairy tales you want, but you don't get to make up facts.

 

Marriage predates the bible. Period. Full stop. You can believe otherwise, just like you can believe the earth is flat (like your bible says) but that doesn't make it so.

 

3) Good luck proving me wrong, while I cannot find a link of it online, there was a chapter in my Psychology book regarding sexuality and the brain in general, and this study was not only very ummm... important I guess you could say, but well known.

The onus of proof is on the person making a positive assertion. If you want to claim the necessity of a masculine and feminine influence on child development, it is up to YOU to provide evidence to support it, not up to others to try to disprove it.

 

Otherwise, I could post saying the core of the moon is made of green cheese and make you try to prove otherwise.

[D Jay99]

3) Good luck proving me wrong, while I cannot find a link of it online, there was a chapter in my Psychology book regarding sexuality and the brain in general, and this study was not only very ummm... important I guess you could say, but well known.

The onus of proof is on the person making a positive assertion. If you want to claim the necessity of a masculine and feminine influence on child development, it is up to YOU to provide evidence to support it, not up to others to try to disprove it.

 

Otherwise, I could post saying the core of the moon is made of green cheese and make you try to prove otherwise.

That doesn't always hold true though, it's all based on what we think is rational and what is not.

I could for example claim that the core of the moon is not made of stone, which would be a negative assertion. It would be kind of weird though if you then had to prove the core of the moon is indeed made of stone.

 

I do agree with you that it's pretty ridiculous to claim that a child needs both a mother and a father. I went a part of my life without a father myself and I wouldn't say I turned out messed up, the same would probably happen if a child would have 2 mothers or 2 fathers.

The child could of course get bullied at school because his parents are 'weird', but that would be a problem of same-sex marriage not being socially accepted and not of it being wrong or something.

[qeltar]

That doesn't always hold true though, it's all based on what we think is rational and what is not.

I could for example claim that the core of the moon is not made of stone, which would be a negative assertion. It would be kind of weird though if you then had to prove the core of the moon is indeed made of stone.

Yes, that's why I said "positive assertion". Proving a negative is usually difficult, and often impossible.

[D Jay99]

That doesn't always hold true though, it's all based on what we think is rational and what is not.

I could for example claim that the core of the moon is not made of stone, which would be a negative assertion. It would be kind of weird though if you then had to prove the core of the moon is indeed made of stone.

Yes, that's why I said "positive assertion". Proving a negative is usually difficult, and often impossible.

Yeah but in this case, the positive assertion is 'the core of the moon is made of stone', which is pretty obvious so that doesn't really have to be proven even though it is a positive assertion.

It all depends on your definiton of what is obvious or not.

[Saru Inc]

2) You can't prove me wrong, because based on my belief system (Christianity) I believe that the religion of Judaism\Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

 

Actually, there's proof that Earth existed for billions and billions of years, while Judiasm/Christianity claim it existed for about... 7K years or so?

 

No, if the earth has been around for "billions" of years I believe the religion of Christianity has been around for billions of years as well. I believe the religion off Judaism\Christianity started as soon as the world was created, thus creating my viewpoint on marriage cannot predate Judaism\Christianity.

 

 

3) Studies show children need a feminine, and masculine influences in their life to grow up healthy and well-adjusted. Now as its possible to have maybe a really good friend who comes over often, or a grandma\grandpa, having a same sex couple simply will not do. And have you noticed its hard for single people to adopt as well? Same reason, they need a masculine AND feminine influence.

 

Because same-sex people don't have mothers/fathers/grandparents! That's brilliant logic! I never would have guessed!

 

Now, applying that logic, single parents should have their children taken away from them because they're unfit, yes?

 

I don't "research" all of my debate points

 

You should. That's the point of a debate, to present facts.

 

Maybe they should. I didn't invent the logic, so cut that sarcastic [cabbage] outta off the post, thanks! Anyways, you've yet to prove me wrong. STILL. You are simply trying to degrade my arguments, make me seem like an idiot, that way, you don't have to prove me wrong. wat

 

Quite a set of logical fallacies on display here...

 

1) You can't prove me wrong, becuase this is from my personal experience, not yours.

No, nobody can negate your personal experience. But we CAN point out that your personal experience -- assuming you are being honest -- doesn't necessarily imply anything general.

 

If the only Christian person I know is a priest who turns out to be a pedophile, that doesn't mean that all Christians are pedophiles.

 

2) You can't prove me wrong, because based on my belief system (Christianity) I believe that the religion of Judaism\Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

You can believe any silly fairy tales you want, but you don't get to make up facts.

 

Marriage predates the bible. Period. Full stop. You can believe otherwise, just like you can believe the earth is flat (like your bible says) but that doesn't make it so.

 

3) Good luck proving me wrong, while I cannot find a link of it online, there was a chapter in my Psychology book regarding sexuality and the brain in general, and this study was not only very ummm... important I guess you could say, but well known.

The onus of proof is on the person making a positive assertion. If you want to claim the necessity of a masculine and feminine influence on child development, it is up to YOU to provide evidence to support it, not up to others to try to disprove it.

 

Otherwise, I could post saying the core of the moon is made of green cheese and make you try to prove otherwise.

 

 

1) valid point.

2) Point out where in the Bible it says that? 2a) wow. ok. I guess that shows your true colors. Silly little fairy tales? Talk about being close minded, s0n.

3) No its not, you keep on saying that in all these arguments where it simply doesn't apply. And of course you're going to make a far out there analogy, I'd liek you to make a more realistic analogy, thank you.

 

 

[spoiler=Proof]One in six young children from single-parent families spend fewer than two hours a week with a father, grandfather or male role model, a poll has found. Researchers asked 1,009 parents how many hours a week their children aged six and under spent in the company of men.

 

The figure was one in 15 for parents who were married or living together, but higher among the 53 single mothers questioned for the poll carried out for the government-funded Children's Workforce Development Council (CWDC).

 

Despite the fact that two-thirds of the single mothers wanted men to work at their child's nursery, almost as many — 62% — said no men did. The latest figures from the Department for Children, Schools and Families show that 2% of nursery workers are male.

 

Just over a third of the single mothers said their children spent under six hours a week with a male role model. This was the case for 8% of parents who were married or living together.

 

Just under a quarter of the single mothers said their children spent more than 20 hours a week in the company of men. This was the case for 57% of parents who were married or living together.

 

Almost two-thirds of the single mothers considered it important for their children to have regular contact with male role models. A third believed boys related better to men than to women.

 

The CWDC, which tries to ensure nursery workers have adequate training, wants more men to work in nursery schools.

 

Thom Crabbe, its national development manager for early years, said: "It is important that during the crucial first five years of a child's life they have quality contact with both male and female role models. Working with under-fives is definitely a job for the boys."

 

Fiona Weir, chief executive of Gingerbread, a charity for single parents, said most single-parent families wanted both parents to be involved in their children's lives, where this was a safe option.

 

She said: "Having both male and female role models in educational settings is important for all children, not just those of single parents. Further efforts to encourage men to take up these roles would be welcome."

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jan/19/children-earlyyearseducation

 

Read down toward the bottom of that ^^

 

And apparently it is a current argument whether or not children do need both genders. It makes sense to me.

 

And good grief peeps, I want gay marriage. I just think that if you want a Christian Gay Marriage the Christian church has the right to not marry you.

 

 

Off-topic: I think the reason so many here hate the Bible, is they think it has all these things in it which simply aren't there. Its a wrongful stereotype and stigma of the Bible, and is overall ironic. Maybe if more people read the Bible seriously, not sarcastically they might not act so... full of it.

[Romy]

2) You can't prove me wrong, because based on my belief system (Christianity) I believe that the religion of Judaism\Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

 

Actually, there's proof that Earth existed for billions and billions of years, while Judiasm/Christianity claim it existed for about... 7K years or so?

 

No, if the earth has been around for "billions" of years I believe the religion of Christianity has been around for billions of years as well. I believe the religion off Judaism\Christianity started as soon as the world was created, thus creating my viewpoint on marriage cannot predate Judaism\Christianity.

 

That's just plainly rediculous to think Judiasm/Christianity existed before human beings did. Just absurd.

 

EDIT: as for your proof... That's not a proof, that's someone else's opinion. While they may be experts, their opinion is still that. An opinion.

 

 

EDIT2:

Off-topic: I think the reason so many here hate the Bible, is they think it has all these things in it which simply aren't there. Its a wrongful stereotype and stigma of the Bible, and is overall ironic. Maybe if more people read the Bible seriously, not sarcastically they might not act so... full of it.

 

Enlighten us (seriously).

[Giordano]

What I find funny, is that God is absolutely perfect.

 

But when I ask various Christians why God creates babies with no legs, or with down syndrome or whatever.

 

God makes mistakes.

 

Hm.

[qeltar]

No, if the earth has been around for "billions" of years I believe the religion of Christianity has been around for billions of years as well.

A good example of how someone can believe something that is utter nonsense, but that doesn't make it true.

 

2) Point out where in the Bible it says that? 2a) wow. ok. I guess that shows your true colors. Silly little fairy tales? Talk about being close minded, s0n.

Where the bible says *what*? Don't know what you mean.

 

And yes, the bible is a collection of myths and fairy tales, interspersed with some history and a few valid moral lesson (outnumbered by immoral lessons, unfortunately).

 

Off-topic: I think the reason so many here hate the Bible, is they think it has all these things in it which simply aren't there. Its a wrongful stereotype and stigma of the Bible, and is overall ironic. Maybe if more people read the Bible seriously, not sarcastically they might not act so... full of it.

I don't take the bible seriously because the *bible* is so... full of it.

[Aliath]

Maybe a perfect environment for a child would consist of having both a mother and father figure.

 

But perfect environments don't exist; and not having a mother/father figure won't mess you up the least. I don't have a father figure, and I'm fine.

 

Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

 

That made my day. Thanks.

[OldJoe]

Maybe a perfect environment for a child would consist of having both a mother and father figure.

 

But perfect environments don't exist; and not having a mother/father figure won't mess you up the least. I don't have a father figure, and I'm fine.

 

Chrisitanity has been around since the Earth was formed.

 

That made my day. Thanks.

 

Perhaps it's a bit different case if a person has two gay parents than one straight.

 

I should try and look for some study where they compare how kids have faired in life, if there's any difference between gay and straight parents. It would be interesting to read, as long as it's neutral. Hopefully i might find some study, or perhaps it's a too controversial subject.

I have my personal view on it, but it would be interesting to read a study...

[Saru Inc]

What I find funny, is that God is absolutely perfect.

 

But when I ask various Christians why God creates babies with no legs, or with down syndrome or whatever.

 

God makes mistakes.

 

Hm.

 

 

 

I don't know why God does those things, but he does have this thing where say if I do something [bleep]ed up, then my children have to suffer. I really don't get why he does that. That my be related to why babies are born with no legs, but I think its more closely related to war and disease.

 

and yw Aliath :]

[Romy]

Yeah, either that or... Perhaps God simply does not exist?

[Saru Inc]

Possibly. Or perhaps he does?

[qeltar]

Blasphemer. Everyone knows the universe spewed forth from the rear end of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

[Romy]

I gave that answer as an aletnative to Nick's question... You said it could be that God, supposedly, punishes the kids for the parents' doings, it could be war and disease, and it could be that God doesn't exist...

[fakeitormakeit2]

Unless I'm wrong the Bible acknowledges the existence of pre-Christian religions though. Christianity itself dates back just under 2,000 years because that's when they say Jesus was born. To the Bible that leaves a few thousand years where marriage was notr dictated by Christian beliefs, and for evolution that leaves howevermany thousands of years humans were around before then (20,000 or so?)

Yes, the Bible gives its version of marriage, and that may be the modern version, but regardless the concept existed in one form or another long before.

 

But belief systems should still be able to have their own say on what their marriages are. Have the Government as a 'public option'.

That's kind of what I said. I said have the government give civil unions unbiasedly with the same benefits to any couples, then the churches and religious communities could dispense marriages. I don't know why someone disagreed, probably because it satisfies all parties >.> hahaha

 

And to respond to the comment about children being born without legs, God does not make physical and scientific interventions otherwise that would tamper with our own right to free will. Plus if God were to intervene with any problem and we had no problems, there wouldn't really be a point in living.