WikiLeaks releases footage believed to show civilian deaths in Iraq in 2007.

[fakeitormakeit2]

What facts don't I have set straight? When I said americans killing civilians is horrendous?

Are going to say that statement isn't subjective? I'm not trying to argue or anything, but I just noticed you said that after you said someone's posts was "subjective as hell."

How is that subjective? Killing journalists/civilians is considered a war crime - you know something designed in the Geneva Convention. Try looking into it sometime

Dah hur hur what's that, a type of oven?

[exodus199]

I think we can all agree that it's very stressful for the soldiers.

 

However that can't be an excuse for what we see on that video.

The truth in the end is, those sivilians were killed, and those soldiers live.

 

There is difference between the soldiers and the civilans is, the soldiers choose to go there, out of their free will. They are the indruders. They shouldn't be there in the first place. Those kind of 'mistakes' are bound to happen in the enviroment they created there.

 

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how people time from time again fail to see the big picture. Don't you know the history? Haven't you learned anything from it? Nazi germany. Good example.

Kriegsmier, let me ask you a question. Would you have been a nazi if you lived in germany 1940? I'm pretty sure you don't agree with what nazis did back then. But most of the nazi soldiers weren't monsters, they were normal people just like you and me. Now, you just have to see that this situation we have in iraq today is really not much different from nazi germany. There were people back then who resisted and didin't go with the killings of innocent people.. and then there were those people who were weak. I'm pretty sure they used all kinds of excuses aswell. They must have been under alot stress too.

 

Think about it. One single civilian killed is too much. There is no excuses for this, stress, job, money, 'because i was ordered to'. No excuses. We as human beings can choose our actions. Those soldiers chose their profession. It was not a honest mistake.

 

That's really highly debatable whether people actually have free will in these situations, hence why the majority of Germans were Nazis in WW2, it's not a case of being weak to give in, but being exceptionally strong to resist. Google Stanley Milgram's experiments and agency theory. I really think for the people at the bottom of the chain, i.e. those soldiers "i was ordered to" really is a valid excuse.

 

Anyway i don't think you can judge these soldiers without going through what they've been through, including the situations that they were in when they decided to join the army etc

 

 

I

[Range_This11]

I was able to forgive the guys for shooting a couple of them because there were dark objects slung over their shoulders. That is fine, but what irked me is that not only did they continue to slaughter already wounded and clearly unarmed civilians, but then destroyed a rescue van with children in it. Even after they were done they mocked the dead civilians by laughing at a tank that ran over one of the bodies and laughed at the courtyard full of dead civilians, congratulating each other on such great marksmanship. These soldiers may have been on edge at the start, but judging by their reaction afterward they did not care if the people they shot were civilians or not. It's just disgusting.

[Kriegsmier]

I think we can all agree that it's very stressful for the soldiers.

 

However that can't be an excuse for what we see on that video.

The truth in the end is, those sivilians were killed, and those soldiers live.

 

There is difference between the soldiers and the civilans is, the soldiers choose to go there, out of their free will. They are the indruders. They shouldn't be there in the first place. Those kind of 'mistakes' are bound to happen in the enviroment they created there.

 

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how people time from time again fail to see the big picture. Don't you know the history? Haven't you learned anything from it? Nazi germany. Good example.

Kriegsmier, let me ask you a question. Would you have been a nazi if you lived in germany 1940? I'm pretty sure you don't agree with what nazis did back then. But most of the nazi soldiers weren't monsters, they were normal people just like you and me. Now, you just have to see that this situation we have in iraq today is really not much different from nazi germany. There were people back then who resisted and didin't go with the killings of innocent people.. and then there were those people who were weak. I'm pretty sure they used all kinds of excuses aswell. They must have been under alot stress too.

 

Think about it. One single civilian killed is too much. There is no excuses for this, stress, job, money, 'because i was ordered to'. No excuses. We as human beings can choose our actions. Those soldiers chose their profession. It was not a honest mistake.

 

I had no say whether I went to Iraq or not. Both times. I was told, it was an order, and I carried it out. Thats how the military works. I chose to join the military, but there is no free will about deploying like this. How am I supposed to answer that nazi question, its not 1940 and I have no idea what would happen if I were back then. Maybe? I support my country, and what hitler was feeding Germany really sounded good to them. They had no idea what was going on behind his schemes. I agree with fighting for what you believe in, so in a sense yes I do agree with what they did. These guys are normal people too (the video). They are just like you and the next guy, except they have an extra switch on the control panel that they can turn on and off again.

 

Technology is way ahead these days, and I know its hard for most of you to believe, but we've decreased casualties with it.

 

And I disagree. One civilian killed is ok, as long as I take 2+ targets with them. Say 10 Taliban fighters/leaders were hold up in a house in Afghanistan, with 1 maybe 2 civilians. Would you take the chance and hit the house? Or wait until that civilian leaves and probably miss your chance for those 10 other targets? It'd be insane to wait. You hit the house.

 

I was able to forgive the guys for shooting a couple of them because there were dark objects slung over their shoulders. That is fine, but what irked me is that not only did they continue to slaughter already wounded and clearly unarmed civilians, but then destroyed a rescue van with children in it. Even after they were done they mocked the dead civilians by laughing at a tank that ran over one of the bodies and laughed at the courtyard full of dead civilians, congratulating each other on such great marksmanship. These soldiers may have been on edge at the start, but judging by their reaction afterward they did not care if the people they shot were civilians or not. It's just disgusting.

 

That was a hmmwv not a tank. ;)

 

And the first thing you should do as a person behind the rifle is not get to know your victims other then what you see. You erase all of that out of your mind, it will eventually draw itself back....hence PTSD, but for right then you erase it all. Don't give them a face, don't give them a family, don't give them anything in your mind. Its war, its hell....sorry thats the way it is.

[Nero]

And I disagree. One civilian killed is ok, as long as I take 2+ targets with them. Say 10 Taliban fighters/leaders were hold up in a house in Afghanistan, with 1 maybe 2 civilians. Would you take the chance and hit the house? Or wait until that civilian leaves and probably miss your chance for those 10 other targets? It'd be insane to wait. You hit the house.

Just pointing out that it's more like 1 or 2 Taliban fighters and 10 civilians.

[tortilliachp]

 

Technology is way ahead these days, and I know its hard for most of you to believe, but we've decreased casualties with it.

 

And I disagree. One civilian killed is ok, as long as I take 2+ targets with them. Say 10 Taliban fighters/leaders were hold up in a house in Afghanistan, with 1 maybe 2 civilians. Would you take the chance and hit the house? Or wait until that civilian leaves and probably miss your chance for those 10 other targets? It'd be insane to wait. You hit the house.

 

 

looking at this overview, citing all it's sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War, it's closer to 20 to 1 civillians to combatants dead. That shows a clear lack of restraint before fireing.

 

compared to WWII, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties, the ratio of civillian deaths is much much lower, 22-25 million soldiers to 43-46 million civillians.

 

compared to the first gulf war, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Casualties, the ratio of civillan deaths is similar: ca. 100 000 civillians to ca. 11-12000 combatants.

 

It seems technology saves the soldiers, not the civillians, huh? America, saving its own, just as britain saves its own, and norway saves its own. we westeners have it good, don't we?

 

This movie has (at least in Europe) been condemed by all millitary personell (who have given commentary presented in the media) and the media, and been clearly labelled as a clear war crime. I don't know how radical you guys are, but claiming this is okay, is pretty far out there...

[NorthernHero]

really highly debatable whether people actually have free will in these situations, hence why the majority of Germans were Nazis in WW2, it's not a case of being weak to give in, but being exceptionally strong to resist. Google Stanley Milgram's experiments and agency theory. I really think for the people at the bottom of the chain, i.e. those soldiers "i was ordered to" really is a valid excuse.

 

Yeah, I agree it is definetely not easy to resist and to 'think outside of the box'. It's always alot of proganda and brainwashing. People don't realise their thoughts are being controlled. Heck, even hollywood is in the propaganda industry. Just look at the plot in many films. How many times have you seen a film that condems war? In how many films there are so called 'war heroes'? In reality, war has no heroes. How many oscars did avatar win? What is the plot in avatar? The american soldiers are portrayed as the 'saviours' ofcourse. This is a form of brainwashing and proganda because everything we see and hear affects our thinking.

Thats why you shouldn't get involved in such organisations like military in the first place. You are trained to think in a certain way there. They do implement opinions on the soldiers heads. And they have certain kind of code language to

dehumanize the 'enemy', they don't say 'kill', isntead they say 'engage' etc. Call it brainwashing or what you will but it's very real.

[Faux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgqRzwh-fI

 

One of the journalists' brother responding to the video.

[baalboy5]

It was a mistake, so generalize it all you will. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone dies, its WAR.

And don't tell me "oh they're not supposed be over there" Thats not the point, is it or is it not war?

 

Want another fun example of a mistake, didn't Nixion or someone order a bombing on a building which turned out to be a pharmacy? No one here arguing about that.

Excuse my spelling, keyboard sucks.

[magekillr]

It was a mistake, so generalize it all you will.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how this was a mistake when it's quite clear that this is regular behavior for how this war has been conducted.

[baalboy5]

It was a mistake, so generalize it all you will.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how this was a mistake when it's quite clear that this is regular behavior for how this war has been conducted.

I'm trying to figure out if you care more about the guy's death or the meaning behind it? Don't talk better if your just trying to use someone's suffering to argue agianst the mistake.

[Kiriyama]

Let me ask you people calling these men evil and such this..

 

In that situation, on a battlefield where everything is not clear, where you are in danger at practically every moment, would you all have made the same judgment you have now? On this battlefield, you can't tell friend from foe.

 

Sure we now know it is a camera, but in that situation, it can look like other things. You don't take chances when your life is on the line. A guy comes at you with what appears to be a gun, do you double-check, or is your first instinct survival?

 

The fact is, you are all condemning these men from the safety of your homes far from a battlefield. Hell, the closest you all have been to this sort of thing is probably in a game, where it is clear who the enemy is.

 

So again, before you claim these men are evil, put yourselves in their situation, it certainly looks like they are carrying an RPG or something, and there's a large armed group of them. Do you take the chance that they are just innocents, endangering yourself when you have reasonable suspicion that they are carrying a deadly and illegal weapon?

[Faux]

Let me ask you people calling these men evil and such this..

 

In that situation, on a battlefield where everything is not clear, where you are in danger at practically every moment, would you all have made the same judgment you have now? On this battlefield, you can't tell friend from foe.

 

Sure we now know it is a camera, but in that situation, it can look like other things. You don't take chances when your life is on the line. A guy comes at you with what appears to be a gun, do you double-check, or is your first instinct survival?

 

The fact is, you are all condemning these men from the safety of your homes far from a battlefield. Hell, the closest you all have been to this sort of thing is probably in a game, where it is clear who the enemy is.

 

So again, before you claim these men are evil, put yourselves in their situation, it certainly looks like they are carrying an RPG or something, and there's a large armed group of them. Do you take the chance that they are just innocents, endangering yourself when you have reasonable suspicion that they are carrying a deadly and illegal weapon?

 

/barf

 

Sorry what is this [cabbage]? No one came at them at all. It was the military who went flying around the area and decided these were insurgents based on horrible black and white video feed.

[tortilliachp]

Let me ask you people calling these men evil and such this..

 

In that situation, on a battlefield where everything is not clear, where you are in danger at practically every moment, would you all have made the same judgment you have now? On this battlefield, you can't tell friend from foe.

 

Sure we now know it is a camera, but in that situation, it can look like other things. You don't take chances when your life is on the line. A guy comes at you with what appears to be a gun, do you double-check, or is your first instinct survival?

 

The fact is, you are all condemning these men from the safety of your homes far from a battlefield. Hell, the closest you all have been to this sort of thing is probably in a game, where it is clear who the enemy is.

 

So again, before you claim these men are evil, put yourselves in their situation, it certainly looks like they are carrying an RPG or something, and there's a large armed group of them. Do you take the chance that they are just innocents, endangering yourself when you have reasonable suspicion that they are carrying a deadly and illegal weapon?

 

fly the chopper 10m closer, use the zoom image: you can then discern if it's a camera, or a rocketlauncher. that takes one second. ONE SECOND. I'm sure it'd take any soldier a second to put the launcher on their shoulder and taim at the chopper in the first pace. When you have one shot, you don't waste it.

 

The benefit of general conscription in norway, is the fact that all guys 18+ in norway HAVE had contact with the millitary. Those of us who get away with only the first meeting still all have friends who have served for a year. You then get the benefit of a population that understands how global conflicts actually work, everyone knows many with direct experience. you also have a selection, so you get people in teh army with the qualifications needed to fight: because you choose those most suited to the army. Does your country, or the country you invade deserve second rate soldiers?

 

It's not rocket science, just a tiny tiny bit of training. you don't throw a granade when you can't reach the target: you don't shoot when you don't know what you're shooting at. They could always be friendlies, or civillians. Especially when you're trying to gain the trust of the population, you don't shoot anyone unless you really really really really really really really really really really really really have to.

 

That's one of the first basic lessons every guy in training here: you need information to act.

[magekillr]

A reader of Andrew Sullivan's blog, who happens to be an active duty soldier, writes:

 

90% of what occurs in that video has been commonplace in Iraq for the last 7 years, and the 10% that differs is entirely based on the fact that two of the gentlemen killed were journalists.

 

War is a disgusting, horrible thing. As cliche as that excuse has become, for people to look at the natural heartbreaking nature of it and say that they're somehow anomalous just shows how far people who have not experienced war have to go to understanding it.

 

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/the-lies-of-the-pentagon-ctd-3.html

 

I want to continue to emphasize that this is commonplace and not rare; I can't do that enough. The only thing that makes this different is that we saw it.

[NorthernHero]

So again, before you claim these men are evil, put yourselves in their situation, it certainly looks like they are carrying an RPG or something, and there's a large armed group of them. Do you take the chance that they are just innocents, endangering yourself when you have reasonable suspicion that they are carrying a deadly and illegal weapon?

Even if they had reason suspect their own lives are in danger.. Are you saying it's ok to be such a coward to put your own life ahead of lives of innocent civians? There were children in that van! Yes, they coudln't know that but they did know there was a possibility of children/woman/civilian man getting injured. Also, there were houses there, people living and they shot missiles there. We don't even know about the damages they did to people inside the buildings. They are cowards to care more about their own lives than the lives of civilians.

 

That argument, that they had to protect their lifes is as ridiculous as if youd say it's ok for a bully to go bully a weaker kid and if he sees that that kid might want to defent himself it's ok for the bully to kick his [wagon]. ---> I say it again, they shouldn't have been howering there with their copter in the first place.

[Kriegsmier]

 

Technology is way ahead these days, and I know its hard for most of you to believe, but we've decreased casualties with it.

 

And I disagree. One civilian killed is ok, as long as I take 2+ targets with them. Say 10 Taliban fighters/leaders were hold up in a house in Afghanistan, with 1 maybe 2 civilians. Would you take the chance and hit the house? Or wait until that civilian leaves and probably miss your chance for those 10 other targets? It'd be insane to wait. You hit the house.

 

 

looking at this overview, citing all it's sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War, it's closer to 20 to 1 civillians to combatants dead. That shows a clear lack of restraint before fireing.

 

compared to WWII, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties, the ratio of civillian deaths is much much lower, 22-25 million soldiers to 43-46 million civillians.

 

compared to the first gulf war, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Casualties, the ratio of civillan deaths is similar: ca. 100 000 civillians to ca. 11-12000 combatants.

 

It seems technology saves the soldiers, not the civillians, huh? America, saving its own, just as britain saves its own, and norway saves its own. we westeners have it good, don't we?

 

This movie has (at least in Europe) been condemed by all millitary personell (who have given commentary presented in the media) and the media, and been clearly labelled as a clear war crime. I don't know how radical you guys are, but claiming this is okay, is pretty far out there...

 

Did you miss that huge key word on the end of those numbers for WWII? MILLIONS. HUGE difference. And exactly THE MEDIA. The media finds the people that hate it, they find the stuff that will stir arguments up, and they will twist the truth.

 

People need to wake up. Sign up, go there yourself....please. See what happens there first hand. Walk the streets of Iraq or Afghanistan for a tour and i'm sure you'll change your tune. I love how most kids on this board that pretend to know politics and world issues because they watch one sided news reports, read bogus blogs, and play MW2 want to weigh in on this and call it wrong. PLEASE live it for yourself. You never hear about, or choose to pay attention to the good going on over there. Thats whats sick and disturbing, WAKE UP.

 

Sign up, and go see for yourselves. No balls.

 

Keep living in your fantasy world. Keep believing that no one can do no harm in the world and every "civilian" is innocent. While we continue to have harm done to us. You can let that guy go one day and the next day he'll kill one of our guys. Then what.

[hide]

[/hide]

 

Your other option is to go join the west burrough baptist church.

[Barihawk]

Since everyone thought my previous post was great, here's something even more related to the topic:

 

http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1803025

 

It's a roadmap to this and every other political/religious discussion on TIF. Ever.

[Faux]

 

Keep living in your fantasy world. Keep believing that no one can do no harm in the world and every "civilian" is innocent. While we continue to have harm done to us. You can let that guy go one day and the next day he'll kill one of our guys. Then what.

[hide]

[/hide]

 

Your other option is to go join the west burrough baptist church.

 

Is that statement supposed to move people? Iraq had nothing to do with September 11. Your soldiers died for nothing in Iraq.

[fakeitormakeit2]

As I said

I am an Arab and I find the change of American thought about the war in Iraq to be about the most humorous thing I have ever encountered.

 

1. Okay, so first you have the people who are like ya, bomb them dumb towel heads they're evil they blew up our towers (please keep in mind Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11). So then all the ignorant Americans, which I would say is at least 25% of the population was like oh ya I think they're right, let's bomb Iran. I mean Iraq. Whatever same different. Yay, killing dumb muslims durga druga.

 

2. Ya, we caught that crazy bad man super evil Saddam. He caused 9/11 so now all our problems will go away. (Little did the ignorant fools know that the deposing of Saddam caused political unrest for the Christian in Lebanon as well as persecution of Iraqi Christians and Jews).

 

3. Let's give them our noble and grand democracy! Yay democracy, its the best and only system of government that is good <33333333333 (Ok, so now they install mock elections and really the people in power are theocratic imams with underground power who use their followers to bully around everyone since there isn't an iron fist such as Saddam pinning them. It is also a great chance to get ride of Christians because no one will stop them. Radicalism worsens.)

 

4. Oh noez, war is soooo bad. America is sooo evil, oh nooooo! What have we done! Oh noooo! President Bush, you're a bad person. Boohoo people died. (What the hell do you expect, when you invade another country there will be bloodshed, or were you expecting a delightful picnic?)

 

5. The only logical answer for Bush being so evil is that the oil companies bribed him to invade to lower oil prices (Now it is true Saddam had sealed off Iraq's oil sources which in turn raised oil prices, but it is highly illogical to assume the war was based on the acquisition of oil. It was a beneficial byproduct, yes, but not a major objective. The main objective was to spread our wonderful democracy to other people.)

 

Those are the 5 steps through the evolution of emotion of the War in Iraq. Completely stupid, wish-washy and spineless and generally controlled by the mainstream media, but that is like every other American political issue. Personally I was never a fan of the war in Iraq and I feel the "authority" America has to invade a country illegally against international regulation, depose its leader and give it its twisted sense of democracy is more arrogant when the Pope issued the statement in the Investiture Controversy that all princes should kiss his feet and that he had the ability to depose kings, because at least those who followed the Pope did so with an adherence to the religion in contrast to the Iraqis who were subject to unwanted American judgment. The invasion was so popular at first because some Americans were such semite-phobic people were proclaiming carpet bomb the entire middle east, and yet they couldn't find it on a map or explain why it should be bombed other then it had crazy sand n-word towel heads terrorists.

 

This is just like Obama, it truly portrays the pattern of American politics and the mass ignorance of its populace. I didn't like him from the start everyone was like you're a racist. Change, wooo. Now I'm 1 in like >200 million.

 

The entrance to Iraq was vain. The soldiers died for nothing as puppets. They will sadly continue to die until it can be made to look as thought it wasn't completely a lose, and it will just be covered up in history by America just like the Korean War.

 

People mourn the soldiers' deaths yet the civilians are involuntarily being kill for living in the land their family has lived in for thousands of years. I am not anti-soldier, I am anti-stupidity.

[NorthernHero]

People need to wake up. Sign up, go there yourself....please. See what happens there first hand. Walk the streets of Iraq or Afghanistan for a tour and i'm sure you'll change your tune. I love how most kids on this board that pretend to know politics and world issues because they watch one sided news reports, read bogus blogs, and play MW2 want to weigh in on this and call it wrong. PLEASE live it for yourself. You never hear about, or choose to pay attention to the good going on over there. Thats whats sick and disturbing, WAKE UP.

Lets see you follow your own advice and be a iraq civil for a day or two? It's not your country that is invated now. Also I get the impression you value the life of american soldier more than iraq civilian. Isn't that little bit racist? Surely you wouldn't be this pro war if you'd born in iraq. Is it really that hard to take a position of another human being and watch the world trought their eyes?

 

Hah, even incident like 9/11 didin't open most americans eyes. That kind of [cabbage] is daily to those people living in america invated countries. It just doesn't make the news usually.

 

 

Since everyone thought my previous post was great, here's something even more related to the topic:

 

http://www.collegehu...article:1803025

 

It's a roadmap to this and every other political/religious discussion on TIF. Ever.

[sarcasm]

When you have nothing to say, always good strategy is to ridiculate everyones elses comments. Now that you have generalized our comments, they suddenly lost their meaning. Congratulations. =D>

[/sarcasm]

[tortilliachp]

 

Technology is way ahead these days, and I know its hard for most of you to believe, but we've decreased casualties with it.

 

And I disagree. One civilian killed is ok, as long as I take 2+ targets with them. Say 10 Taliban fighters/leaders were hold up in a house in Afghanistan, with 1 maybe 2 civilians. Would you take the chance and hit the house? Or wait until that civilian leaves and probably miss your chance for those 10 other targets? It'd be insane to wait. You hit the house.

 

 

looking at this overview, citing all it's sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War, it's closer to 20 to 1 civillians to combatants dead. That shows a clear lack of restraint before fireing.

 

compared to WWII, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties, the ratio of civillian deaths is much much lower, 22-25 million soldiers to 43-46 million civillians.

 

compared to the first gulf war, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Casualties, the ratio of civillan deaths is similar: ca. 100 000 civillians to ca. 11-12000 combatants.

 

It seems technology saves the soldiers, not the civillians, huh? America, saving its own, just as britain saves its own, and norway saves its own. we westeners have it good, don't we?

 

This movie has (at least in Europe) been condemed by all millitary personell (who have given commentary presented in the media) and the media, and been clearly labelled as a clear war crime. I don't know how radical you guys are, but claiming this is okay, is pretty far out there...

 

 

Did you miss that huge key word on the end of those numbers for WWII? MILLIONS. HUGE difference. And exactly THE MEDIA. The media finds the people that hate it, they find the stuff that will stir arguments up, and they will twist the truth.

 

People need to wake up. Sign up, go there yourself....please. See what happens there first hand. Walk the streets of Iraq or Afghanistan for a tour and i'm sure you'll change your tune. I love how most kids on this board that pretend to know politics and world issues because they watch one sided news reports, read bogus blogs, and play MW2 want to weigh in on this and call it wrong. PLEASE live it for yourself. You never hear about, or choose to pay attention to the good going on over there. Thats whats sick and disturbing, WAKE UP.

 

Sign up, and go see for yourselves. No balls.

 

Keep living in your fantasy world. Keep believing that no one can do no harm in the world and every "civilian" is innocent. While we continue to have harm done to us. You can let that guy go one day and the next day he'll kill one of our guys. Then what.

[hide]

[/hide]

 

Your other option is to go join the west burrough baptist church.

 

I think you missed the key point of my argument the RATIO. not absolute numbers, but RATIOS. Today, more civillians are killed than combatants. The combatants are killing too many civillians.

 

I also think you didn't read the other parts of my post either: i have friends who have been, and are currently in Iraq. They're norwegian soldiers, they'd get jailed and a dishonorable discharge for this type of event. I think you need to look outside of your nations obviously flawed army, and examine the rest of the world before you comment. Just as you need to examine foreign media before you label it all similar to your sensationalist entertainment media. Heck, even my tv network labels CNN as an "entertainment" channel, not a news channel.

 

keep demanding "balls" when brains are what are required to see that you SHOULDN'T be going in there to fight when those are the rules of engagement and common practice.

 

What's the good thing going on over there? 100 000 civillians dead? Afghanistan sure worked out well: much stronger opium production and opium market, guess how the american "war on terror" relates to the "war on drugs?" The removal of a dictator, only to have civil war? The removal of a dictator to have over-reaching suicide bombings daily? the removal of a dictator to have warlords control the country? the removal of a dictator to institute democracy that can never work, just look at history: how often has forced democracy been stable? I certainly cannot find any examples? If you wanted to help others, you'd never go into iraq, you could save more lives and people by taking down north korea, i've never seen a rationale leading to any other conclusion.

 

assert yourself as the role of a victim, while as an american your aggressive foreign policy of the last 50 years has asserted your position as a global target, because you've trodden down so many peoples all over the world, faught so many wars on foreign soil, moved so far from isolationism. Being the "world police" often makes you a target, when the policing isn't just and fair. war, just and fair you say? how about getting it approved by the UN?

 

I believe in the human rights. I believe a "civillian" is innocent, and has the right to be seen as innocent untill proven guilty. apprehended only with meritable reason. Aren't those the rules you also give your own citizens? why deny other peoples the rights you find "self-evident?"

 

You also divide us into two groops: WBC or agreeing with you, leaving no middle ground. A common fallacy to ensure your position.

 

sorry, bigotry, hypocricy and victimization are the only ways you can justify your position. Is that the american way?

[The Dark Lord]

Isn't that little bit racist?

 

No.

[NorthernHero]

People need to wake up. Sign up, go there yourself....please. See what happens there first hand. Walk the streets of Iraq or Afghanistan for a tour and i'm sure you'll change your tune. I love how most kids on this board that pretend to know politics and world issues because they watch one sided news reports, read bogus blogs, and play MW2 want to weigh in on this and call it wrong. PLEASE live it for yourself. You never hear about, or choose to pay attention to the good going on over there. Thats whats sick and disturbing, WAKE UP.

Lets see you follow your own advice and be a iraq civil for a day or two? It's not your country that is invated now. Also I get the impression you value the life of american soldier more than iraq civilian. Isn't that little bit racist? Surely you wouldn't be this pro war if you'd born in iraq. Is it really that hard to take a position of another human being and watch the world trought their eyes?

 

Hah, even incident like 9/11 didin't open most americans eyes. That kind of [cabbage] is daily to those people living in america invated countries. It just doesn't make the news usually.

Oh and by the way, what goes around, comes around. If you can't take their position, think about your own childen. Those two kids who were on the van. They survived, but were their parents killed there? Highly possible. They won't forget what happened and who killed their parents. Changes are they will grow up and come to get their revenge.

 

Knowing that this is what is going on there, incidents like 9/11 shouldn't be suprise to anyone.

 

Isn't that little bit racist?

 

No.

Really? Please elaborate.

[Nero]

It's a roadmap to this and every other political/religious discussion on TIF. Ever.

Political discussion on the internet are always so much fun.