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Siobhana

Tip.it Times 26 April 2010

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I can't work out if Jagex purposely made Dungeoneering as boring as possible to make the rewards harder to get or if Jagex had a group crack-smoking session while playing WoW and came up with Dungeoneering during it.

 

Instanced dungeons have existed for ages, I remember playing an SNES RPG with this dungeon that was randomly produced and different every time (I think it could have up to 30 floors) and anyone who's played a hack and slash game of D&D has probably done a crawl through a randomly generated dungeon (or two, or three). WoW may be famous for raids and raiding, but it's hardly the only place to get inspiration for randomly generated dungeons (or even the most likely, I'd bet my left sock that more than a few Jagex developers have played D&D at some point).


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There have been some very involved debates about the skill/minigame issue, even right here on this forum. Compared to them, that article struck me as oversimplified and far from convincing.


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I personally love dungeoneering. I know almost for certain, simply by the way it is set up with the storylines and all that, that there will be another dungeon eventually. And by the way, i was reading something from jagex the other day about a void knight quest. after that i looked at all those letters and thougt of Dungeoneering, and i thougt of this: this new quest will have monsters (from dungeoneering) from another dimension! voila! think of that. keep thinking... keep thinking.... okay stop. there.

 

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I, um.....I'm sorry.

 

The DYK is like saying "Use keys to open doors!"

 

Perhaps you should try something else like "NPC human mobs in the dungeon have the same defence values associated with the type and tier of armor they are wearing. This also applies to their weapon and attack style." or "The smuggler can give you tips on how to fight the boss once you've found it." or "Gatestones can be used to escape the boss room except for certain foes like the Icefiend."

 

Maybe just "In dungeoneering, fires made from higher grade wood are less likely to burn fish." That one isn't immediately obvious.

 

Although I already knew the DYK, I don't see how that would be common knowledge. I mean, not like you can sell blue charms for 5k+ gp anywhere ELSE in the game, can you? And nice DYK's of your own - I didn't know/forget the smuggler could give you boss tips. Not everyone would think of using the gatestone to escape the boss. Same with the fires. Took me a while to figure those two out.

 

On topic: until dungeoneering actually offers something to the game, something more then rewards purchased via tokens, I don't think many people will view it as a full complete skill. (Although some of those rewards are nice...tome of frost and arcane pulse next time I burst/barrage rock lobsters? :) )

 

Yes, Dungeoneering uses many different skills, but here's the problem. If you need a higher level in one of those skills, then Dungeoneering is the LAST place to be. Don't bother training Dungeoneering until all of your other skills are leveled up. It'd be like having to kill chickens and ogres until your combat was maxed out BEFORE starting on Slayer. It'd be like having to get 99 Mining before you can even smith that first ore, because ores can only be bought with mining tokens. You will not accumulate anything while playing Dungeoneering. It's a one way street for skills.

 

Originally, I liked the mini-game feel, because it worked away from the grinding effect. Now I feel it grinds worse than any other skill. It wouldn't be so bad, but I can't take anything with me. Except for this worthless ring. Yeah, you HAVE to take that with you. So I have to run around making armor and building enough cash to get materials to make my armor only to have to start all over again at the start of each new floor. I might be able to understand losing items when you leave the dungeon, but after each floor? Again, nothing can be accumulated. Which means you're getting out of it exactly what you're putting into it: nothing.

 

You may not want to mention rewards, but you have to wonder what they were thinking when they came up with these arbitrary requirements. Congratulations, you are level 21 Dungeoneering and can now use a Bonecrusher. Yeah. Thanks. Except it's going to take me till level 40 before I can get enough tokens to buy the damn thing. Why not just make the requirements level 40? Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

 

The only reason why I was doing Dungeoneering was because I wanted to keep up a total level, but screw it I could care less now.

 

Ah, here's the thing. You DON'T need maxed skills in Dungeoneering to do it well. Except maybe for the occasional stupid door. Like the 90 something str door that I couldn't open because I couldn't get a damn herb to make a damn potion to boost my damn str level. They really ought to sell herbs, or at least herb seeds.

 

Anyhoo. Bit offtopic. But what you need in there is balanced skills - and to not have combat significantly better then your other stats. If you only have say 60 att/str/def, but have the mining/smithing levels to make armour for level 60att/str/def, perfect. However, if you have the stats to make say level 80 armour (and yes I know they have tiers and such but whatever) and have maxed combat, it kinda sucks.

 

Oh, and I don't think Dungeoneering was planned as a mini-game before it was turned into a skill. Pretty sure it was planned to be it's own damned game, before Jagex realized how well it worked with runescape. Which explains why it kinda feels like its own game....


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Although I already knew the DYK, I don't see how that would be common knowledge. I mean, not like you can sell blue charms for 5k+ gp anywhere ELSE in the game, can you? And nice DYK's of your own - I didn't know/forget the smuggler could give you boss tips. Not everyone would think of using the gatestone to escape the boss. Same with the fires. Took me a while to figure those two out.

These tips and more are included in our Dungeoneering Skill Guide. ;) Have a look! :thumbsup:


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Dungeoneering, if I recall correctly, was meant to be a mini-game but later geared to be a skill instead. I guess for now we just need to wait and see how dungeoneering will play a part in the game outside of Daemonheim. This is probably the key to defining what Dungeoneering is because right now the fact that we can only train it in ONE PLACE gives it a feel of a mini-game (in addition to the tokens of course), whereas agility for example has many areas to train in.

 

Still fun to discuss and debate on what dungeoneering is though. ^_^

 

IT was actually originally meant to be a game of it's own, not a 'mini-game'. They decided the aspects of it could be implemented into runescape (the skills), so.. well they did lol.

 

I would also like to say, there is such a thing as "rushing". Much faster exp overall. Best used in groups of two or more (as with solo, you tend to take much longer times to kill things, therefore taking longer times to finish the dungeon).

With rushing, it's basically just combat, and maybe smithing/fletching/runecraft if you want to make a strong pickaxe (bwuak beast), bow or a few runes for gatestone/curses.

 

Additionally on that aspect, you don't have to use every skill. When i solo, i only fish if there is litterally no food left, i have close to no 'lifepoints'/prayer left and i've still got the entire boss+more to do.

I almost never woodcut, unless i want a bow, the logs i can buy from smuggler anyone.

And blah blah for the rest of the skills.

 

Oh, and on the cash, charms can be alched for big cash. Blue charms=11k FTW :P

___

On dugeoneering's future. There will be a patch update in the next month or so (disappointed with that, one of the mods said it wouldn't be liked summoning where it was rush {patch update}). That will include the rest of floors, bosses and rewards.

Everyone can be certain that in the future some quests will involve dungeoneering, or exploring a cave/dungeon. Also, more areas will open up, perhaps the dwarves stumbled upon a similar circumstance as the frimeniks did?

You don't need to wait for jagex to "confirm" they will be making more areas. Sure it may take a long time, but dungeoneering opens an extremely large possibility of future events in runescape.

 

___

What it is at the moment.

Here's my straight opinion:

Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.

Is like, hunter: -> Higher levels allow more accessibility (more traps). With Dunge, you can bind more armor/weapons.

Is like, construction -> can only be done in one place. Different to construction though, dungeoneering basically locks you there, like in real life. Reading some of the journals, the mahjorat that went down there spent over a century there. And Thok and his brother? spent quite a long time as well ( a few things i think).

Is like, Quests -> The area holds an (multiple) actual storylines. Including Thok's himself, the human bosses, the majhorat and why the other demonic monsters are there. In future, more storylines could unfold with future dungeons.

Is like, an activity -> Purely for the token aspect. A different way of obtaining the items may fixed this (perhaps special rooms/dungeons that relate to the item. Like with the anti-poison totem, you could have been challenged to fight in a room that constantly poisons you, and you must stop the poison killing you)

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I like your thoughts about what it could be useful for outside Daemonheim. I personally think we will be able to get more inventory space somehow with this skill, they have to make this skill somehow useful like summoning which is very helpful! And of course more special treasure trails, Lvl 4 any1? Requiring dungeoneering too.


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Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.

 

Just like Slayer. Except you should only earn 1/10 of regular combat xp while doing tasks. And all Slayer drops need to become untradeable. And give the untradeable whip a Slayer requirement of 30 (Don't worry, we'll keep Abyssal Demons at 85 so it will be pointless). And do an item rollback after each Slayer task. That way, the only incentive to train Slayer is for more Slayer xp.


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The article tries to suggest that Dungeoneering is similar to older skills, yet the examples completely contradict this idea. Skills improve what your character can do. Increase the levels of your gathering skills and you can collect better resources. Increase the levels of your processing skills and you can make better equipment. Slayer and Agility seem to sit outside those two a bit. Basically higher levels of Slayer means being able to combat monsters with generally more valuable loot. A higher agility lets a player get around the world quicker, both with run energy restoring quicker and the shortcuts.

 

But how does Dungeoneering improve a character? You acquire no resources for use outside Daemonheim. You have no additional processing abilities. No new areas outside where you need to go to train this so called skill open up. Dungeoneering itself offers absolutely no benefit to playing the rest of the game. The only thing that is worthwhile is the rewards, which you purchase with tokens. That doesn't sound like a mini game/activity. It IS a mini game.

 

Activities (still have to get used to calling them that) differ from skills and do one or both of two things for the player. Test their current skill levels and provide rewards to show off or use for training. I think Castlewars was the first mini-er I mean activity, followed by the Tzhaar pits and cave. They mostly served to entertain players with high skill levels, particularly in combat, and give them a safe challenge compared to PvP. The newer activities started to include training the skills while you played them because Jagex realized that repeatedly clicking on a rock or tinderbox and logs was just god awful boring.

 

So does Dungeoneering match activities? You utilize multiple skills, possibly all them, in an effort to complete levels/floors to be rewarded with tokens that can be used to get unique items that benefit the other skills.

 

That's not to say that I don't enjoy running a few floors now and then. I like the teamwork aspect. I like that people can be thrown onto a team without having to have friends willing to drop what they're doing to come with you instead. I like being challenged a bit and actually having to try different methods to kill beasties and manage that inventory to get the best results. But to build up anticipation for a new skill and give us Barbarian Assault II was a bit of a slap in the face. Call it what it is, and treat it like it should be. Dungeoneering is a great activity!


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Well, I think the article is somewhat too fast in drawing its conclusion, but I think Dungeoneering can be a skill. I just hoped for pitons, ropes and natural caves, as the present dungeons are somewhat boring. Aside from that, I think we can look forward to the following new skills:

  • Articism
  • Mountaineering
  • Foresting
  • Sailing/Swimming/Oceaning
  • Deserting

 

My point: learning to use the environment to its full potential is indeed a challenge, but I don't think dungeons are sufficiently different from dark nights in mountainous environments. So my suggestion is to create "Survival" or something like that, a skill covering things like climbing, swimming, and the manufacturing of tools (never bring a hammer on quests again!).


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Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.

 

Just like Slayer. Except you should only earn 1/10 of regular combat xp while doing tasks. And all Slayer drops need to become untradeable. And give the untradeable whip a Slayer requirement of 30 (Don't worry, we'll keep Abyssal Demons at 85 so it will be pointless). And do an item rollback after each Slayer task. That way, the only incentive to train Slayer is for more Slayer xp.

I was not referring to the "drops" or "rewards" in any aspect of slayer until i mentioned the tokens. So no need for sarcasm-.-

I stated it is like slayer for the higher level you get, the more things you can kill.

As for the exp, again, was talking about slayer, not combat. In any case, if it were regular experience, all dungeoneering would become is a separate game inside Runescape. Which, as i said, was what it original was.

 

Additionally, every comment everyone is giving immediately states it is useless. Does anyone have something called "patience"? Summoning was useless when it came out for various reasons. Now it's one of the most important skills, similar to agility and magic. General farming was useless. Fruit trees did little to nothing, allotments did nothing, same with hops.

Cooking got updated so potatoes+sweetcorn could be used. Can you not see something similar happening to Dungeoneering where it is incorporated in other places? OUTSIDE of Daemonhiem.

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Additionally, every comment everyone is giving immediately states it is useless. Does anyone have something called "patience"? Summoning was useless when it came out for various reasons. Now it's one of the most important skills, similar to agility and magic. General farming was useless. Fruit trees did little to nothing, allotments did nothing, same with hops.

Cooking got updated so potatoes+sweetcorn could be used. Can you not see something similar happening to Dungeoneering where it is incorporated in other places? OUTSIDE of Daemonhiem.

 

Just what i was trying to say.

Very well put!


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Is like, Slayer -> Not a skill without everything else. In slayer, it's combat that allows more access to monsters. Dungeoneering does this (bosses/slayer monstes), however, needs purpose.

 

Just like Slayer. Except you should only earn 1/10 of regular combat xp while doing tasks. And all Slayer drops need to become untradeable. And give the untradeable whip a Slayer requirement of 30 (Don't worry, we'll keep Abyssal Demons at 85 so it will be pointless). And do an item rollback after each Slayer task. That way, the only incentive to train Slayer is for more Slayer xp.

I was not referring to the "drops" or "rewards" in any aspect of slayer until i mentioned the tokens. So no need for sarcasm-.-

I stated it is like slayer for the higher level you get, the more things you can kill.

As for the exp, again, was talking about slayer, not combat. In any case, if it were regular experience, all dungeoneering would become is a separate game inside Runescape. Which, as i said, was what it original was.

 

Additionally, every comment everyone is giving immediately states it is useless. Does anyone have something called "patience"? Summoning was useless when it came out for various reasons. Now it's one of the most important skills, similar to agility and magic. General farming was useless. Fruit trees did little to nothing, allotments did nothing, same with hops.

Cooking got updated so potatoes+sweetcorn could be used. Can you not see something similar happening to Dungeoneering where it is incorporated in other places? OUTSIDE of Daemonhiem.

 

It sounds like you don't want to agree, but you can't find a way to disagree either. First, two weeks seems a fair enough time frame for an individual to form his or her own opinion. Second, by your logic, we equally have to disregard every statement made about Dungeoneering since they've been given the same amount of time to make their assessment.

 

The sky may be the limit in Dungeoneering, but I can only critique what actually exists at this moment. Why would speculation trump that? I would share your opinion if some of that "potential" had actually been implemented already.

 

But it wasn't.

 

I do see the potential. Whenever I'm Dung'ing I think what a waste. It had real potential to be great, but instead it comes off as bizarre, boring, and awkward.

 

I will disagree with your Summoning and Farming examples. Both had more uses on release. Farming has only ever had one major use: herbs. Everything else is generally used to pad xp. I may be mistaken, but I thought Cooking and Herblore were updated alongside Farming's release. Summoning was more of a pain to use, and was quickly overhauled. It may be a cynical thought, but I also believe they were a little more motivated to get Summoning right coming off the heels of the Anti-RWT campaign. If Jagex does choose to overhaul the skill in the future, then I might change my opinion the same way I did for Summoning after its makeover.

 

I don't think it matters what I think anymore anyways. Over the past year or so they keep pumping bizarre and stupid updates into this game. It's not that Jagex is incompetent; I believe the devs are some of the best at what they do in their field. After reading Jmod posts on RSOF it's pretty clear this is the direction Runescape is heading whether we like it or not. I've got about two weeks membership left and I'm not going to renew. It's a shame because I had always considered myself a big fan of the game. But what can we do? You have to suffer through my last few ravings before I finally quit.


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The mods said they weren't planning on expanding dungeneering outside of Daemonheim.


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Well first of all this is not like WoW almost at all. Instanced dungeons are the only similarity. In this it is as unique as you could get for dungeons. Also they are releasing a lot of new stuff eventually and are gonna make the skill much better.


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The mods said they weren't planning on expanding dungeneering outside of Daemonheim.

 

I suggest you read the Dungeoneering Q&A again, since you seem to lack reading comprehension.


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The thing that the author got wrong, in my opinion, is that for all of the other skills he mentioned, you can train them without training the skill's that go along with it. All of the materials to train the skills he mentioned (fletch, smith) can be purchased through the G.E. and someone else can train the gathering skill (woodcut, mining). Also, these skills are dependent on only a one or two skills where as dung. is dependent on every single skill. The author also didn't mention the tokens aspect of the skill which gives it that mini-game feel.

 

You're actually wrong there. The dungeon that is created for you will never be impossible to complete. You may not be able to get to all the bonus rooms, and you personally may not be the one in your group able to complete tasks or gather materials, but the path to the boss room is always POSSIBLE. So having higher levels in other skills is just a bonus, not a requirement (just as in every other skill). Even the enemies you face have their levels scaled to your team.

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well, before i get started, i admit it, i am stoopid.

 

that being said (and for many people, soon to be proven) my .02 on dung. (be prepared, i am long winded)

 

i wasnt that pleased when i first heard about the new "skill" but oh well, RS wasnt just built to make me happy, and recently, i have come to the realization that it seems to be less and less what makes me happy. dung is just the most recent update that i am unhappy with.

 

i, as i have become acustumed to doing, waited a few days before i tried dung out as too many times in the past, content has been added only to have bugs in it that sometimes makes jagex think somehow the players are responsible for the bugs and get in trouble when they take advantage of, what they believe to be, the content of whatever update has problems with (i refer to the fremmy diary, but could almost be talking about the RCing problem in dung), and give them an opertunity to fix those bugs and, as i stated above, i am stoopid, so i wanted other players feedback before i tried it. as it turns out, i was to stoopid to understand what i was hearing, so i still went into dung pretty much unprepared as the first player to try it was.

 

well, i played for about 4 hours, i got to skill level 4, and gave up. i figured out several things, first, i must be more stoopid than i thought as it seems i need to do cyphering to determine wether or not i am doing any good. second, i figured out that this must be a real pain in the rear to do for new players, and third that whatever dung is, it isnt a skill, a whole new game that jagex could have put on funorb or called it runescape dung, and made it replace RS (like RS did to classic), but not a skill. (other things i figured out too, but i think these three are good for making my point.)

 

now for my stoopid reasoning....

 

first, i am still confused as to what in the heck is going on. i finish a dung, some charts and graphs appear (whatever all that information was) and it somehow cyphers out how much xp i got. woot, i was so excited, now i have a mini game/ activity/ skill telling me i am a waste of space because i am too stoopid to do whatever in the heck i was doing to get any more xp than i did. i am called stoopid enough without this "skill" calling me that. heck, it isnt like i have played RS for a few years but when i started it i had the RL knowledge to know that steel is usually better armor than iron, but dung has armor and weapons i gotta deduce their functions from scratch. i am to stoopid for that so no thanks.

 

second, wow, the darn bosses were tough and here i was thinking the new skill wasnt going to be "combat" based, but i am stoopid, so i probabaly just misunderstood. anyway, here i am thinking, how in the heck can new players beat these bosses, i know they are not real bad, but i know i couldnt have beat them as a new player. i just thought "darn good thing i have the skills i have, i couldnt do this without them". i even burned food!! low level food!! (i cyphered it was low level as it healed very little constitution/lifepoints/hitpoints (that is how stoopid i am, still trying to figgure that out)).

 

so i am talking dung with some friends and commented on how i couldnt see how a new player could even do this new "skill" to which they inform me (after they take into account my stoopidness) that this "skill" is based on my "skills".

 

SAY WHAT!! HUH??

 

ok, i am stoopid, i am sure everybody believes me now, but a skill that makes me skill at a different level than someone else??

 

so, i am working harder than new players for the same xp?? what is up with that?? what happened here?

 

i get to fight a boss in a level 1 dung that is harder to kill that a player that started playing yesterday, and we get the same xp?

 

somehow that just does not seem right (of course, it may not be right either, i cant imagine this to be true, somebody may be kidding me cause they know i am stoopid). seems like all those skills i have earned in the rest of runescape have given me a handicap. is RS bowling now? golf?

 

"uh-oh, gompo would squish bosses that new players will have problems with, we gotta make it harder for him!!"

 

doesnt this seem bass akwards? if i had never done slayer before and had the combat level i do now, would i start slayer with the best slayer master and then get the same xp killing dark beasts as a player that just started playing did for killing cave critters? i dont think so. but in dung i understand that is what happens.

 

and, that bytes.

 

third, if i wanted to start a whole new MMOLRPG (or whatever it is called) i would have started one. with dung, i get to refigure out and earn stuff all over and over again. i am happy with RS, that is why i dont play other games, let alone one i start over every time i play.

 

my point is (i know, about dang time),

 

dung might have made a great mini game (or whatever in the heck they are called now), or even a great fun orb game.

 

but as a skill in RS, well, i call it dung for a reason.


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so i am talking dung with some friends and commented on how i couldnt see how a new player could even do this new "skill" to which they inform me (after they take into account my stoopidness) that this "skill" is based on my "skills".

 

SAY WHAT!! HUH??

 

ok, i am stoopid, i am sure everybody believes me now, but a skill that makes me skill at a different level than someone else??

 

so, i am working harder than new players for the same xp?? what is up with that?? what happened here?

 

i get to fight a boss in a level 1 dung that is harder to kill that a player that started playing yesterday, and we get the same xp?

 

 

"Dung" as you call it is designed so no mater what your skills are you can get through every level of Daemonheim.

And so you find it just as hard as anyone, ie: it will be as hard for a level 138 as it would be for a level 3.

 

It's a little easer if you skills are balanced, but that isn't so important if your in a party.

 

i admit it, i am stoopid.

 

 

You are right more right than you know.


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[spoiler=Goals]Quest cape: Complete! (for now)

All stats 70+:

othelbark.png

 

 

If you are my enemy: May Guthix bring you Rest!

Dragon drops: 2 d meds.

Barrows: Dharok platebody, d med.

 

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I don't understand why Jagex expects us to be able to reach level 120...

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so i am talking dung with some friends and commented on how i couldnt see how a new player could even do this new "skill" to which they inform me (after they take into account my stoopidness) that this "skill" is based on my "skills".

 

SAY WHAT!! HUH??

 

ok, i am stoopid, i am sure everybody believes me now, but a skill that makes me skill at a different level than someone else??

 

so, i am working harder than new players for the same xp?? what is up with that?? what happened here?

 

i get to fight a boss in a level 1 dung that is harder to kill that a player that started playing yesterday, and we get the same xp?

 

 

"Dung" as you call it is designed so no mater what your skills are you can get through every level of Daemonheim.

And so you find it just as hard as anyone, ie: it will be as hard for a level 138 as it would be for a level 3.

 

It's a little easer if you skills are balanced, but that isn't so important if your in a party.

 

i admit it, i am stoopid.

 

 

You are right more right than you know.

 

 

to my knowledge, no other "skill" is based on my other skills. i know some mini games that are geared to my skills, but, a "skill" based on skills, none.

 

anyway, one of the reasons i have skills is so i can do other things easier. i can RC better and more runes because i earned the level. i can kill blue dragons like a knife through butter, because i have improved my skills. i can mine better, mage better, make anything i can think of in runescape, because i earned the right to.

 

imagine if i had 99 fletching and they introduced woodcutting as a skill. would i then be "forced " to only chop mage trees because i can fletch them, for the same WC xp as someone who just needs to find and chop oaks?

 

while i have considered my skills to "be balanced" i didnt earn them to start a new skill with a handicap (yes, a handicap, look it up).

 

i figure every skill prior to dung being at over 80 each would be balanced, i never dreamed a skill would put my other skills to waste. think about it, i have a dung made for me, one that forces me to use my skills, and i get no benifit from using them, other than getting the same xp as a player who started playing RS just yesterday.

 

i would have rather jagex remove all my skills and start me like a newborn baby in dung. they do it by not allowing me to carry anything i have earned in the rest of the RS world, why not my skills? (probabaly what was intended if it would have been a stand alone game as i understand it may have been designed to be)

 

fair to all, and i am not cheated by working harder than anyone else (or i am not getting it easier than others either!) for the same xp and it might be fun (to me, as i know many enjoy dung).

 

but, nope, i play to earn my levels so i can do anything i want to. with dung, i start at a high level, and earn the same as someone who starts lower. i start every other skill equal with every other player in the whole world, but not dung, why is that?

 

i am now the proud owner of 18 unearned skill levels of dung. aint i special! :thumbsup:

 

i am still stoopid, and proud.


No matter where you go, there you are.

 

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I don't understand why Jagex expects us to be able to reach level 120...

 

Uh, they dont. It's an end-game skill that isn't meant to be maxed by everyone. Just like Jagex doesn't "expect" anyone to get a 99, they don't "expect" anyone to get 120 Dungeoneering. They expect you to play the game.

 

Oh, and:

image-9CDC_4BDE6658.jpg


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