Dungeoneering - The nerf of "Rushing"

[qeltar]

Okay sport. He doesn't know what rushing means, and neither do I, and in fact probably nobody else does except you. :rolleyes:

[sees_all1]

Okay sport. He doesn't know what rushing means, and neither do I, and in fact probably nobody else does except you. :rolleyes:

 

I thought rushing was pretty self explanatory. As I understand it, you rush through the dungeon, skip monsters you don't want to kill, skip dead ends, and ignore all rooms after you find the boss. Really, that style of play has nothing to do with the setup at the beginning (size of dungeon, number in party, number to design dungeon to).

[qeltar]

There are many different meanings of "rushing". Some people rush by leaving all monsters they can; others leave only ones in dead end rooms. Some change parameters when rushing; some don't. Some run into the boss room even if it means dying; others prepare first. And so on.

 

That's why I try to put names on these techniques, to try to differentiate them better.

 

The most efficient way to rush is in fact to lower difficulty. If Jagex did change the skill to impose a new penalty on reduced-difficulty floors (which we've all agreed they have not) then it would be entirely valid to say that rushing had been "nerfed".

[xpx]

Well it appears most people agree with the version of the word rushing that i have experianced in use troughout dungeoneering. You can RUSH in any setting or complexity, but that doesent change the entity of it- it's about not killing monsters, not chaning the settings of the start of the dungeon. The names of methods in your guide mean nothing as they aren't generally accepted, If rushing is used in general in this way and this way only, then anything you want to call it doesn't matter.

[predator1030]

There are many different meanings of "rushing". Some people rush by leaving all monsters they can; others leave only ones in dead end rooms. Some change parameters when rushing; some don't. Some run into the boss room even if it means dying; others prepare first. And so on.

 

That's why I try to put names on these techniques, to try to differentiate them better.

 

The most efficient way to rush is in fact to lower difficulty. If Jagex did change the skill to impose a new penalty on reduced-difficulty floors (which we've all agreed they have not) then it would be entirely valid to say that rushing had been "nerfed".

 

I have been wondering about this, is doing floors 1-25 on level 1-3 complexity really better than doing them all on 6 complexity with a 5 man team?

 

With a really good group I was able to complete each floor anywhere from 2-4 minutes depending on the boss, so for an average of ~ 3 minutes. 3 x 25 = 75 minutes so doing Floors 1-25 in about 1 hour 15 minutes at a good pace. I have done the lower floors at complexity 6 with a 5 man group but I didn't really average it over a decent amount of time. When I timed it though each floor was taking about 8-10 minutes to complete.

 

I'm not really sure which method is better, I'm guessing both ways would be really close in overall experience.

[qeltar]

Well it appears most people agree with the version of the word rushing that i have experianced in use troughout dungeoneering.

Yes, because you are the True Lord and Master of the Definition of Rushing. And we, your humble servants, thank You for bringing your Good and Holy Word to us.

 

We shall strike down the blasphemers who define "rushing" to include lower difficulty settings or other changes to make the floors faster! Because going faster is obviously not what "rushing" is about!

 

You can RUSH in any setting or complexity, but that doesent change the entity of it- it's about not killing monsters, not chaning the settings of the start of the dungeon.

Yes, master! We hear and obey!

[bedman]

Wtf, why are we arguing over the definition of an invented runescape-word.

[AlexRose]

Do you guys want me to post my efficency equation for this argument? It'll save a lot of time on testing and will still provide more or less accurate results. However, its rather.... long, and I'm not sure how to actually post it on Tip.It other than taking a screenshot.

[gypsyeater]

There are many different meanings of "rushing". Some people rush by leaving all monsters they can; others leave only ones in dead end rooms. Some change parameters when rushing; some don't. Some run into the boss room even if it means dying; others prepare first. And so on.

 

That's why I try to put names on these techniques, to try to differentiate them better.

 

The most efficient way to rush is in fact to lower difficulty. If Jagex did change the skill to impose a new penalty on reduced-difficulty floors (which we've all agreed they have not) then it would be entirely valid to say that rushing had been "nerfed".

 

I have been wondering about this, is doing floors 1-25 on level 1-3 complexity really better than doing them all on 6 complexity with a 5 man team?

 

With a really good group I was able to complete each floor anywhere from 2-4 minutes depending on the boss, so for an average of ~ 3 minutes. 3 x 25 = 75 minutes so doing Floors 1-25 in about 1 hour 15 minutes at a good pace. I have done the lower floors at complexity 6 with a 5 man group but I didn't really average it over a decent amount of time. When I timed it though each floor was taking about 8-10 minutes to complete.

 

I'm not really sure which method is better, I'm guessing both ways would be really close in overall experience.

 

Yes it is way faster. Me and my friend had a race to lvl 80. I won by far.

By using the f1-29 complexity 1-3 method. Where as my friend "rushed" f1-29 at 5:5 for each floor and got onto the F30-35 floors much more slowly; thus making her training method "WAY" slower xp.

She even trained it for more hours than me. I got 80 while she was still at 78.

[jsboutin2]

Do you guys want me to post my efficency equation for this argument? It'll save a lot of time on testing and will still provide more or less accurate results. However, its rather.... long, and I'm not sure how to actually post it on Tip.It other than taking a screenshot.

 

Then take a screenshot.

[AlexRose]

Do you guys want me to post my efficency equation for this argument? It'll save a lot of time on testing and will still provide more or less accurate results. However, its rather.... long, and I'm not sure how to actually post it on Tip.It other than taking a screenshot.

 

Then take a screenshot.

 

That I will do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll do a quick example with Qeltar's "Snake-Eye" strategy. He recommends doing Complex 1, 1:1 on floors 1-25, and 5:5/5:4 Larges on the remaining ten floors. For his complex 1 runs, he averages about 4 minutes a run and gains about a 660 per Complex 1 floor on Floor 35. For his Large runs, let's say he normally gets 50000 experience on Floor 35, which takes him on average an hour each (that includes set up time, mistakes, bad teams, etc.). So.....

 

B= 35

M1=660

M2=50000

T1= (1/15) In relation to hours

T2= 1

x= 10

 

So when we plug those variables in, we get

 

 

 

 

 

When we do some basic simpliciation, as in knock out some of those fractions and split sums, we then get

 

 

 

 

We can simply

 

 

 

with a calculator, which gets us about 1.54. Multiply that with 165, and we get about 254.51. We're now left with

 

 

 

 

So now all we need to do is solve for those two Sigma expressions. We can do this using a calculator, which I'll do to save us some trouble. Using the calculator, the first equation

 

 

Turns out to be about 37.44, while the second equation

 

 

 

 

Turns out to be 17.51 . So now we're left with

 

 

 

With some simplication, we get

 

 

which (at last!) gets us.

 

 

 

So Qeltar's method gives us, on the whole, 38,340 experience an hour. Neato. I hope someone got something out of that.

[xpx]

That's really a complex representation of an equation to calculate the average...only thing i didn't understand is the 0,9434ˇx part of it, but i'm assuming it's a way to calculate averages based on actual on screen numbers(prestige). I think the easier way(and actually more accurate) would be to not bother with the mathematical equations and use average experiances(like for instance, 20 dungeons, twice 26-35) because you are bound to get very differant dungeon completitions, deaths and level mods.

[AlexRose]

That's really a complex representation of an equation to calculate the average...only thing i didn't understand is the 0,9434ˇx part of it, but i'm assuming it's a way to calculate averages based on actual on screen numbers(prestige).

 

More or less. You still need to know how fast each method is and how much experience you get out of it, but it'll generalize how much experience you gain per floor, relative to your "starting" Experience. That's basically what that part of the equation is; the percentage of experience you lose for every floor you go down.

 

 

I think the easier way(and actually more accurate) would be to not bother with the mathematical equations and use average experiances(like for instance, 20 dungeons, twice 26-35) because you are bound to get very differant dungeon completitions, deaths and level mods.

 

Well yes, you do need a general idea of how much experience you're getting using that method. But the problem with averaging the experience is that it's not a linear increase in experience, so you can't simply add the lowest rate and the highest rate and divide by two. Because of this, everytime you adjust the number of floors, or the method you're using, or whatever, you need to run a whole other battery of tests to figure out the experience rate, which is a problem.

 

For my equation, you still need to run a few tests to find how much experience you normally get on your highest floor (which can be done without actually doing the highest floor by taking the "Prestige" experience and multiplying it by whatever bonuses you normally get), but not as nearly as much testing as you'd have to do using your method. All those factors you listed need to be applied for both tests, which can be done with a rough estimate for each. Obviously, you're not going to complete every large in an hour with 50k experience, but it's a rough average used for comparisons.

 

 

EDIT: Should I just put that in a seperate thread? It's somewhat relevant to the discussion at hand, but...

[Viv]

i really like the complex 1-3 method

 

5:5 smalls u find a team they stay for 3 floors and it takes way longer to reset for ur 30-35 floors and it is good to do larges for 25-29 as well...

 

avg exp/hr really depends on how easy it is to find a team as if u need to shout 5 mins every 3 floors its different than just getting those low floors done on complex 1 and 5:5 SMALLS HAVE BAD TEAMS

[xpx]

i really like the complex 1-3 method

 

5:5 smalls u find a team they stay for 3 floors and it takes way longer to reset for ur 30-35 floors and it is good to do larges for 25-29 as well...

 

avg exp/hr really depends on how easy it is to find a team as if u need to shout 5 mins every 3 floors its different than just getting those low floors done on complex 1 and 5:5 SMALLS HAVE BAD TEAMS

I wanted to do f1-24 5:3 yesterday and found a great team right off the bat with only one person not able to do all floors. So first we got up to f7, then f9 after looking 5mins for another guy, then f13 after looking 10 mins for another guy. After looking for the third new person who could go up to f19 for 10 mins we finally got to 19 and the team just fell apart then, but overall, if we had just went on doing 8-24 4:3(which wouldn't have taken more than 10% more time) we would have got done with all the floors we needed in much less time... The moral of the story? teaming sometimes really ****s and if you already have 3-4 good people prepared to go for more than 10 floors with you, the extra 1-2 people don't make much of a differance.

 

Also what i found yesterday, and that seemed quite nice, is people looking for 130+ combat 90+ dungeoneering people for 2-3 large dungeons in a row- really makes training easier if you can find people like that, and people with 90+ dungeoneering are almost certainly not stupid.

[Obtaurian]

Totally unrelated, but I tried to duo-rush with a guy earlier. We did four floors with a lot of epic fail moments (both of us dying right as the boss dies, getting a lot of crazy puzzle rooms, losing keys, etc). He ditched me and logged out halfway through a floor. I found out later that he was a maxed player.

 

Moral of the story: I suck at dungeoneering, apparently.

 

This is a very tiresome skill when you have a low level in it.

[AlexRose]

 

Also what i found yesterday, and that seemed quite nice, is people looking for 130+ combat 90+ dungeoneering people for 2-3 large dungeons in a row- really makes training easier if you can find people like that, and people with 90+ dungeoneering are almost certainly not stupid.

 

 

Another very good moral; do not doubt the fact that these people with 90+ dungeoneering know what they're doing. I asked one, who at the time I didn't realize had such a high level (98!) if someone had brought the tools, out of a natural habit. My god, she was so furious that I had doubted that, she ended up quitting the dungeon over it. I mean, really....

[Youmu]

Can you guys please cut the efficiency or whatever discussion? You guys have been discussing this in so many threads... -_-

[xpx]

Can you guys please cut the efficiency or whatever discussion? You guys have been discussing this in so many threads... -_-

As far as i can tell, and this is true only for dungeoneering, this skill is so diverse that even in 2 months time, we still havn't figured out what is the best way to train the skill, so i'd say this really deserves as much attention/testing/discussion as it can get.

 

 

Also what i found yesterday, and that seemed quite nice, is people looking for 130+ combat 90+ dungeoneering people for 2-3 large dungeons in a row- really makes training easier if you can find people like that, and people with 90+ dungeoneering are almost certainly not stupid.

 

 

Another very good moral; do not doubt the fact that these people with 90+ dungeoneering know what they're doing. I asked one, who at the time I didn't realize had such a high level (98!) if someone had brought the tools, out of a natural habit. My god, she was so furious that I had doubted that, she ended up quitting the dungeon over it. I mean, really....

I quit large dungeons at the start if i'm told it's not a rush or if i get a sense(looking at the dungeoneering levels, too) that the dungeon is bound to fail/take a long time. It's more efficent to do so than to deal with the problems later. I don't spplaud what he did, but i guess he sensed that the people around him weren't good enough.

[AlexRose]

I quit large dungeons at the start if i'm told it's not a rush or if i get a sense(looking at the dungeoneering levels, too) that the dungeon is bound to fail/take a long time. It's more efficent to do so than to deal with the problems later. I don't spplaud what he did, but i guess he sensed that the people around him weren't good enough.

 

I suppose, but that's rather a long shot to go from "Do you have the tools?" to "Wow, this team is probably incompetent".

 

 

 

 

 

As far as i can tell, and this is true only for dungeoneering, this skill is so diverse that even in 2 months time, we still havn't figured out what is the best way to train the skill, so i'd say this really deserves as much attention/testing/discussion as it can get.

 

 

 

Which reminds me; next time you do your set of 5:3 rushes, would you please note how much "Prestige" Experience you're getting (the second number at the top) on your dungeons? It should stay roughly the same throughout every dungeon, but it'll vary a little depending on how much you did in the dungeon, so just give me a good guess of the average. And could you also tell me about how fast (again, a rough estimate) you complete each floor doing the 5:3 method? I'd really appreciate it if you could do that.

[xpx]

 

As far as i can tell, and this is true only for dungeoneering, this skill is so diverse that even in 2 months time, we still havn't figured out what is the best way to train the skill, so i'd say this really deserves as much attention/testing/discussion as it can get.

 

 

 

Which reminds me; next time you do your set of 5:3 rushes, would you please note how much "Prestige" Experience you're getting (the second number at the top) on your dungeons? It should stay roughly the same throughout every dungeon, but it'll vary a little depending on how much you did in the dungeon, so just give me a good guess of the average. And could you also tell me about how fast (again, a rough estimate) you complete each floor doing the 5:3 method? I'd really appreciate it if you could do that.

The prestige is around about 5700 and hovering about there, a bit less than solo actually, but with so many people i usually get an average of 4 level mod. The 5:3 modifier is 4%.

 

I'm not really certain about the speed, but i'd say 6-8 minutes is a good estimate and an 6 minute 30 seconds average is easily possible on a good team.

[AlexRose]

 

As far as i can tell, and this is true only for dungeoneering, this skill is so diverse that even in 2 months time, we still havn't figured out what is the best way to train the skill, so i'd say this really deserves as much attention/testing/discussion as it can get.

 

 

 

Which reminds me; next time you do your set of 5:3 rushes, would you please note how much "Prestige" Experience you're getting (the second number at the top) on your dungeons? It should stay roughly the same throughout every dungeon, but it'll vary a little depending on how much you did in the dungeon, so just give me a good guess of the average. And could you also tell me about how fast (again, a rough estimate) you complete each floor doing the 5:3 method? I'd really appreciate it if you could do that.

The prestige is around about 5700 and hovering about there, a bit less than solo actually, but with so many people i usually get an average of 4 level mod. The 5:3 modifier is 4%.

 

I'm not really certain about the speed, but i'd say 6-8 minutes is a good estimate and an 6 minute 30 seconds average is easily possible on a good team.

 

So you get about a 108-110% bonus?

 

Thank you very much for that information. Helps me out a lot.

 

 

EDIT: Alright, so I plugged those numbers into my equation. I added a 20 minute team preparation time for the entire set of beginning floors, but besides that assumed you had mostly an "ideal" team that got 6.5 minutes and a 5.7k Prestige experience per floor. Qeltar is going to hate me for this, but for now I'm going to assume your rough estimate time is more or less accurate.

 

So when I plugged in all the numbers, it eventually came out to be 40.9k experience an hour, which is in fact 7% more experience per hour than Qeltar's Snake Eyed method (and would save about 20 hours on the road to 100). HOWEVER, Qeltar's method gets an assumed "perfect" team for all the lower floors due to only being one person, and that would be dubious at best for your method. Furthermore, you can actually use a team (3:1 c1) to do the full rush method, which can easily yield an average of 2 minute a floor. So yeah...

[canadiansmurf]

 

Another very good moral; do not doubt the fact that these people with 90+ dungeoneering know what they're doing. I asked one, who at the time I didn't realize had such a high level (98!) if someone had brought the tools, out of a natural habit. My god, she was so furious that I had doubted that, she ended up quitting the dungeon over it. I mean, really....

 

Why is it that you can't buy tools urself?

It takes an insignificant amount of time and the basic tools don't cost that much.

Why waste time asking if others brought tools? You should have your own set.

[AlexRose]

 

Another very good moral; do not doubt the fact that these people with 90+ dungeoneering know what they're doing. I asked one, who at the time I didn't realize had such a high level (98!) if someone had brought the tools, out of a natural habit. My god, she was so furious that I had doubted that, she ended up quitting the dungeon over it. I mean, really....

 

Why is it that you can't buy tools urself?

It takes an insignificant amount of time and the basic tools don't cost that much.

Why waste time asking if others brought tools? You should have your own set.

 

Because teams designate one person to bring the tools, generally the one with the highest total level, to save inventory space and time at the Smuggler. I asked that question to see if I needed to run back and fetch them.

[xpx]

 

Another very good moral; do not doubt the fact that these people with 90+ dungeoneering know what they're doing. I asked one, who at the time I didn't realize had such a high level (98!) if someone had brought the tools, out of a natural habit. My god, she was so furious that I had doubted that, she ended up quitting the dungeon over it. I mean, really....

 

Why is it that you can't buy tools urself?

It takes an insignificant amount of time and the basic tools don't cost that much.

Why waste time asking if others brought tools? You should have your own set.

Not a good post really...not a good post at all....

 

Alex, though i'm not suprised the method i'm taking is faster than qeltar's, it still depends alot on the team and how they are doing. Luckily, as of late, i have been able to dungeoneer with mates and that really saves time.

 

Also if you could, i'd be happy if you calculated 5:5 small aswell, +19% for 5:5, -4 average level mod, average prstige at about 8k and floors take an average of 8 minutes 45 seconds. This is for 1-25.