Do we even need a Combat Triangle?

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

This has been floating around in my head for a while, and recently pushed by the tip.it times I decided to post this.

Note I will try to cover both f2p and p2p pvp and pvm; it would be of benefit if your posts tried to cover more then just say p2p-pvp.

 

In rs today, you have melee. Supposedly strong vs. range and weak vs. mage (its overpowered, by how much is up to debate though)

You also have range, able to shoot magers even when bined/frozen, with high mage defence anyway.

And mage, able to bind/freeze melee with a good deal of accuracy bonus and stop them from even attacking them, but I fear for any mage that lets a meleer get close.

 

It all works on paper, each class has there armour defence set to be high vs. there strong class, and low vs. there weak class. And the pure physical range and stuff like that working to help the triangle.

 

fast forward to a mmorpg with humans as controllers: you got meleers stuffed to the brim in black d hide and mage levels, rangers blasting the turd out of either class with d bows, magers being balanced up to around 50 combat then falling behind very rapidly, only to shoot back up to the point of being overpowered with ice barrage, the entire time constantly costing more then a meleer or ranger could ever do.

 

Should jagex even bother? (Combat triangle?)

Should each class me made, more or less, the same as to remove/soften any loopholes? (Its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same)

Should we stick to what we got and try to balance it, much like how jagex is trying now?

 

we KNOW jagex can get it right, in d'nearing the combat triangle is finely tuned to the point of near perfection, each class has an advantage vs. the one it should, disadvantage vs. the one it shouldnt, and each classes armour has negative attack on each other class.

 

now its inevitable that a player will find a hole, maybe something like fighting undead magers, a meleer can just equip leather and a salve ammy to cover up the loss of attack stats, but this but a small hole and one could call it being smart. It just depends on how big the hole is, for now they re just too big (please no jokes).

 

 

Should jagex even bother: as I see it, jagex are really trying with updates like SoL and mage damage boosting staffs and pots as to mention some from only 1 side of the triangle.

But is this effort misplaced? Should we have a combat triangle? Cant each class = each other class?

There is no denying, this will be a huge update and huge change to the game, this would be a lot of effort to remove the triangle, although I did raise this question I do feel that the effort placed in to removing the triangle could be placed in to keeping and fixing it.

It depends though, how imbedded is the triangle in the game, would removing it fix anything? Or make things worse?

 

 

 

Should each class be made the same: a major problem with the triangle today "its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same".

Each class is fundamentally different,

One using stacks of expensive inventory sapping ammo shooting at a distance, with all sorts of ad on effects like binds or blood barrage. Other differences are thing such as lack of defence, and having defence based of mage levels rather then defence levels. Not to mention relying entirely on there low defence armour for accuracy.

 

one using often expensive equipped ammo shooting at a distance (although not as far as mage), with moderate defence armour that adds massive accuracy boost's, sometimes having side effects with bolts and the attractor. I consider range sort of the mid way between melee and mage.

 

And the last class, having some really heavy defence with the highest max hits (besides addy bolts), not relying on there armour for there accuracy at all allowing them to equip range or mage armour at will, having no range (but halberd), sometimes with side effects like guthins. Lastly, they have 3 different styles of attack (stab, slash and crush) totally unlike the other 2 classes.

 

Even I didnt realise just how different they are! Only now that I finished typing that do I see.

Basically "its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same", but its easy to get an apple, orange lemon to look the same.

Now each class has things on common, more or less, but overall that is a bunch of data that just is incompatible with each other. Although I can only say the "data" is incompatible, the classes them selfs might be different (d'nearing comes to mind).

To the point anyway, it is hard to balance what is by nature incompatible with each other, if each class was say forced to be more like each other with methods such as:

Equipping runes like arrows,

Mage armour being given defence,

Melee armour given slightly less defence and giving them good accuracy stats and compensate by lowering weapon stats,

Range armour given melee penalties,

Each class made as to close to each other in max hits and effects, the list goes on.

 

This would keep the triangle and put balance in to he system by default (SoL helps balance... for those who use it), and help to flatten out any unbalance. Or is this too far? Each class MUST be different, or why bother having classes if the only difference is the name of the weapons used? I guess its a trade-off, gain balance lose unquietness, is that trade off worth it then?

 

 

 

And as always, the way we are going now. Keep what we got, just put some optional balance in to the system, and some forced. Its a simple idea, on paper, but we all know that the combat triangle on paper was the same. Although this may work I feel it is not the way to go or at least not alone, it may solve something, but it clearly cant sole everything (well no idea can solve everything but you get the idea).

for a forth time I say, "its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same", now you may all paint them the same colour but you can still tell them apart, nothing but a superficial try at making them look the same,

Yes you could mash them in a pulp and then paint them, yea they would look the same, but how is that different to above, and making each class the same? Removing the difference in a way that destroyed what you had at first?

 

 

 

Now nearing the end of this post, lets look to the future. In 5 years time suppose jagex fixed the triangle, now looking back to now what would you think, was it any better? Worse? Same?

I guess it will be the case of jagex thinking to them selfs, "wtf where we doing?!"

 

I end this saying, do we need what we have... or dont have?

[tortilliachp]

well, you saw some of the thoughts i have in the tip.it times.

 

However, there is the case of dungeoneering: in dungeoneering the combat triangle works fine. having different styles helps you. monsters, and you in your armour, are weak to different things. one of the primary reasons it works, is that with bound ammo / items and coin drops that remain within the game, ranging and maging isn't too costly. It is in regular runescape.

 

Jagex have already said they are going to fix the combat triangle.

it is one of the main features of runescape. we have mage, melee and range. other games have hand-to-hand type combat, sneaking, healers / priests and so on. the thing with our runescape characters is that we can have all skills and all abilities to be all classes. This means they have to be very balanced, and they all need to have different, distinct uses, or everyone will choose one style because it's slightly more efficient.

 

melee is over-powered because it is cheap, not because it does more damage than range or mage in many situations. range does too little damage, mage is too expensive. Hybriding is too easy, as there are too few negative attack bonuses towards other styles, mages can run away from rangers too easily, mages can at least bind/freeze melees in pvp)

[howbadisbad]

This has been floating around in my head for a while, and recently pushed by the tip.it times I decided to post this.

Note I will try to cover both f2p and p2p pvp and pvm; it would be of benefit if your posts tried to cover more then just say p2p-pvp.

 

In rs today, you have melee. Supposedly strong vs. range and weak vs. mage (its overpowered, by how much is up to debate though) Only in dangerous pvp.

You also have range, able to shoot magers even when bined/frozen, with high mage defence anyway.

And mage, able to bind/freeze melee with a good deal of accuracy bonus and stop them from even attacking them, but I fear for any mage that lets a meleer get close.

 

It all works on paper, each class has there armour defence set to be high vs. there strong class, and low vs. there weak class. And the pure physical range and stuff like that working to help the triangle.

 

fast forward to a mmorpg with humans as controllers: you got meleers stuffed to the brim in black d hide and mage levels, rangers blasting the turd out of either class with d bows, magers being balanced up to around 50 combat then falling behind very rapidly, only to shoot back up to the point of being overpowered with ice barrage, the entire time constantly costing more then a meleer or ranger could ever do.

 

Should jagex even bother? (Combat triangle?) I doubt it since Jamflex has managed to fail hard constantly with these things.

Should each class me made, more or less, the same as to remove/soften any loopholes? (Its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same)

Should we stick to what we got and try to balance it, much like how jagex is trying now?

 

we KNOW jagex can get it right, in d'nearing the combat triangle is finely tuned to the point of near perfection, each class has an advantage vs. the one it should, disadvantage vs. the one it shouldnt, and each classes armour has negative attack on each other class. Finely tuned? Please gtfo from under your rock.

 

now its inevitable that a player will find a hole, maybe something like fighting undead magers, a meleer can just equip leather and a salve ammy to cover up the loss of attack stats, but this but a small hole and one could call it being smart. It just depends on how big the hole is, for now they re just too big (please no jokes).

 

 

Should jagex even bother: as I see it, jagex are really trying with updates like SoL and mage damage boosting staffs and pots as to mention some from only 1 side of the triangle.

But is this effort misplaced? Should we have a combat triangle? Cant each class = each other class? yes plz

There is no denying, this will be a huge update and huge change to the game, this would be a lot of effort to remove the triangle, although I did raise this question I do feel that the effort placed in to removing the triangle could be placed in to keeping and fixing it.

It depends though, how imbedded is the triangle in the game, would removing it fix anything? Or make things worse?

 

 

 

Should each class be made the same: a major problem with the triangle today "its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same".

Each class is fundamentally different,

One using stacks of expensive inventory sapping ammo shooting at a distance, with all sorts of ad on effects like binds or blood barrage. Other differences are thing such as lack of defence, and having defence based of mage levels rather then defence levels. Not to mention relying entirely on there low defence armour for accuracy.

 

one using often expensive equipped ammo shooting at a distance (although not as far as mage), with moderate defence armour that adds massive accuracy boost's, sometimes having side effects with bolts and the attractor. I consider range sort of the mid way between melee and mage.

 

And the last class, having some really heavy defence with the highest max hits (besides addy bolts), not relying on there armour for there accuracy at all allowing them to equip range or mage armour at will, having no range (but halberd), sometimes with side effects like guthins. Lastly, they have 3 different styles of attack (stab, slash and crush) totally unlike the other 2 classes.

 

Even I didnt realise just how different they are! Only now that I finished typing that do I see.

Basically "its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same", but its easy to get an apple, orange lemon to look the same.

Now each class has things on common, more or less, but overall that is a bunch of data that just is incompatible with each other. Although I can only say the "data" is incompatible, the classes them selfs might be different (d'nearing comes to mind).

To the point anyway, it is hard to balance what is by nature incompatible with each other, if each class was say forced to be more like each other with methods such as:

Equipping runes like arrows,

Mage armour being given defence,

Melee armour given slightly less defence and giving them good accuracy stats and compensate by lowering weapon stats,

Range armour given melee penalties,

Each class made as to close to each other in max hits and effects, the list goes on.

 

This would keep the triangle and put balance in to he system by default (SoL helps balance... for those who use it), and help to flatten out any unbalance. Or is this too far? Each class MUST be different, or why bother having classes if the only difference is the name of the weapons used? I guess its a trade-off, gain balance lose unquietness, is that trade off worth it then?

 

 

 

And as always, the way we are going now. Keep what we got, just put some optional balance in to the system, and some forced. Its a simple idea, on paper, but we all know that the combat triangle on paper was the same. Although this may work I feel it is not the way to go or at least not alone, it may solve something, but it clearly cant sole everything (well no idea can solve everything but you get the idea).

for a forth time I say, "its hard to get an apple, banana and a pineapple and get them all to look the same", now you may all paint them the same colour but you can still tell them apart, nothing but a superficial try at making them look the same,

Yes you could mash them in a pulp and then paint them, yea they would look the same, but how is that different to above, and making each class the same? Removing the difference in a way that destroyed what you had at first?

 

 

 

Now nearing the end of this post, lets look to the future. In 5 years time suppose jagex fixed the triangle, now looking back to now what would you think, was it any better? Worse? Same?

I guess it will be the case of jagex thinking to them selfs, "wtf where we doing?!"

 

I end this saying, do we need what we have... or dont have?

 

 

Tbh i skimmed this because of that fact that it is extremely long, had bad spelling/grammar, and your paragraphs are random.

 

In the end I think all classes should be brought to the same power because that would make it much better for range (the underpowered combat type) :thumbup:

[3hitm4g3u]

Yes, we do. If not for anything other than variety.

[Bladewing]

Anyone can hybrid. You aren't forced into a class like in other MMOs. Therefore all this worrying about overpowered/underpowered classes for PvP seems pointless. Use ranged when ranged is good, use magic when magic is good, use melee when melee is good.

 

PvM is another question, but that's not really this topic.

[demby123]

I think he's talking about pvm as well.

[mario_sunny]

The part about the combat triangle being balanced in Dungeoneering... defintely not. Melee is still the overpowered class in Daemonheim.

[Cacmypants]

The part about the combat triangle being balanced in Dungeoneering... defintely not. Melee is still the overpowered class in Daemonheim.

 

Except when you try to take on a primal forgotten warrior with it, or in fact any enemy that is specifically resistant to melee and not 30+ levels weaker than you.

[tortilliachp]

The part about the combat triangle being balanced in Dungeoneering... defintely not. Melee is still the overpowered class in Daemonheim.

 

fire surge hits a ton, and hits just about always. getting runes is easier than making a melee weapon. gatestones are an essential mage component for rushing, as are cures. Magers are effective against pretty much all the bosses released so far.

 

making a t10 bow is something you can do almost every dungeon, you have arrows bound. rapid attacks are an asset dealing with the random rooms of level 3-5s, but more importantly for completing monolith rooms more rapidly. when you rush, if you hit a relatively easy guard door, hugging enemies instead of taking them all means you can rush longer without assistance. The rare few who have hexhunter bows have the most versatile weapon in dungeoneering, and runescape as a whole. it is incredible.

 

I use range/mage/melee in almost equal amounts in large dungeons, without too much hassle you can always tribrid.

[strilmus]

Also, trying to melee the bosses gets progressively harder as they start developing all kinds of ridiculous special attacks that can easily kill you if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[LatinII]

The combat triangle fails, if you want power, join everyone else with some sense, melee stuff.

 

Actually, if you want reliable power, you choose Magic.

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

The combat triangle fails, if you want power, join everyone else with some sense, melee stuff.

 

Actually, if you want reliable power, you choose Magic.

 

this is one of my points, each class is too difrent, why cant both classes be somewhat reliable and somewhat good at KO's? (well, more so then now)

as of how things are now though, im sideing with sw0rd95. mage although strong in its way, is not nearly as cost efective as melee in any way.

[howbadisbad]

The combat triangle fails, if you want power, join everyone else with some sense, melee stuff.

 

Actually, if you want reliable power, you choose Magic.

 

Unless you want to kill a boss, then you choose melee.

 

Range is just the defacto suck style in runescape.

[3hitm4g3u]

The combat triangle fails, if you want power, join everyone else with some sense, melee stuff.

 

Actually, if you want reliable power, you choose Magic.

 

Unless you want to kill a boss, then you choose melee.

 

Range is just the defacto suck style in runescape.

 

Then why do tank rangers own?

[LatinII]

The combat triangle fails, if you want power, join everyone else with some sense, melee stuff.

 

Actually, if you want reliable power, you choose Magic.

 

Unless you want to kill a boss, then you choose melee.

 

Range is just the defacto suck style in runescape.

 

Yeah true but for the most part Magic has a much higher average hit than Melee does, especially with the new arcane necklaces.

[Sir_Kurity]

As far as i can tell at this point.

 

Melee = Best for PVM, and PVP KO's

Mage = Best for deep wildy PVP (You wont be doing much around edgeville though, everyone just runs)

Range = Best for PVP

[Huta]

Magic needs PVM ability and to be slightly better against ranged (a la tank ranged vs. melee).

 

Ranged needs better arrows for the traditional bows and a general overhaul of thrown weaponry.

 

Melee needs jack [cabbage].

 

 

Ranged is NOT underpowered - it is exactly where it belongs against melee, as any decent tank ranger can demonstrate, and is pretty damn useful on most boss monsters.

[howbadisbad]

As far as i can tell at this point.

 

Range = Best for PVP

 

No.

 

Range is extremely underpowered.

[LatinII]

Well I don't think Ranged is as underpowered as you claim it to be, but it could definitely use some improvements.

 

Jagex needs to lower the magic defence of bosses, the rune costs needs to be a lot cheaper and Magic could use some form of KOing. Also, rangers have Kree'arra and Commander Zilyana, meleers have General Graardor. K'ril Tsutsaroth is a demon and demons are supposed to be weak to Magic, however, K'ril Tsutsaroth is not weak to Magic. I think K'ril Tsutsaroth could be the perfect boss for the mages if Jagex would make some changes to him. It could drop a new staff and robes, making it the "GWD" equipment for Magic. A staff with an offensive special attack instead of the defensive one the Staff of Light has. The robes could have a rune saving ability.

 

Melee should get some small nerves, like making the dragon claws special take 55% of your special attack bar. I think the special attack of dragon claws are overpowered. Or change it so that only players who have completed While Guthix Sleeps can equip dragon claws and place some NPC that buys all dragon claws for 35m. But JaGeX is probably the most melee biased company there is, which isn't going to help to rebalance the combat triangle!

 

Rangers should be able to shoot from 10 squares with most weapons, because mages can simply farcast them. The MSB special should use 50% of your special attack instead of 55%. Dragonhide/Karil's/Armadyl needs some serious penalties to Melee. Not some silly -5 to stab, slash and defence Armadyl armor currently has.

 

The triangle needs a complete overhaul because it's just messed up right now... sure, adding arcane necklaces was great for mages even though it has a ridiculous death value (I think it's 20k) causing pretty much every item to protect over it... the chaotic weapons are just way too overpowered. I thought JaGeX realizes by now that they've gone too far with Melee like they said in a Q&A and yet they keep adding more powerful melee items! The chaotic staff and chaotic crossbow are a complete failure, especially the crossbow.

[demby123]

Well I don't think Ranged is as underpowered as you claim it to be, but it could definitely use some improvements.

 

Jagex needs to lower the magic defence of bosses, the rune costs needs to be a lot cheaper and Magic could use some form of KOing. Also, rangers have Kree'arra and Commander Zilyana, meleers have General Graardor. K'ril Tsutsaroth is a demon and demons are supposed to be weak to Magic, however, K'ril Tsutsaroth is not weak to Magic. I think K'ril Tsutsaroth could be the perfect boss for the mages if Jagex would make some changes to him. It could drop a new staff and robes, making it the "GWD" equipment for Magic. A staff with an offensive special attack instead of the defensive one the Staff of Light has. The robes could have a rune saving ability.

 

Melee should get some small nerves, like making the dragon claws special take 55% of your special attack bar. I think the special attack of dragon claws are overpowered. Or change it so that only players who have completed While Guthix Sleeps can equip dragon claws and place some NPC that buys all dragon claws for 35m. But JaGeX is probably the most melee biased company there is, which isn't going to help to rebalance the combat triangle!

 

Rangers should be able to shoot from 10 squares with most weapons, because mages can simply farcast them. The MSB special should use 50% of your special attack instead of 55%. Dragonhide/Karil's/Armadyl needs some serious penalties to Melee. Not some silly -5 to stab, slash and defence Armadyl armor currently has.

 

The triangle needs a complete overhaul because it's just messed up right now... sure, adding arcane necklaces was great for mages even though it has a ridiculous death value (I think it's 20k) causing pretty much every item to protect over it... the chaotic weapons are just way too overpowered. I thought JaGeX realizes by now that they've gone too far with Melee like they said in a Q&A and yet they keep adding more powerful melee items! The chaotic staff and chaotic crossbow are a complete failure, especially the crossbow.

I'd like General Graardor to be a boss monster for mages rather than k'rill. Farcasting graar and the melee minion would be pretty fun.

And Jagex will never balance melee, they've been hypocticical of this combat triangle rebalance thing from the start, it's always 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

[dargonhuman]

Jagex have already said they are going to fix the combat triangle.

Yea, but they've been saying that since RSC - I'll believe it when I see it.

The problem (as I see it) is, everytime Jagex makes some progress in bringing Range and Mage closer to Melee, they undo it a few updates by releasing some new uber-powerful Melee equipment. If they spent a month focusing on just Mage and Range updates, they could fix the triangle. Of course, the rage from the Meleers (which seem to make up the majority of players) would be ... loud and difficult to ignore.