The Case for Dungeoneering

[lordaron8]

Just saying, bk has all styles turrets run ins with dungeoneering on almost every cwa war.

[LTH_Dev_Ranges]

Ya and they're a fantastic clan who fought hard. I have a lot of respect for them.

 

And @Jifaru, I'm going to start asking for no Rune armour soon enough lol

[HAR]

Spot on, agreed with all.

 

Since they came out, I've always tried to get wars with them on. The only excuse that I saw valid was the time factor. A few leaders, quickly after the items came out, didn't want to set up wars because only those people who no-lifed would have weapons by now and wanted to wait a bit longer so there had been time gone past for everyone to have had the opportunity to get them. Which is fair enough, the other excuses as you said were pretty pants.

Blocking Dungeoneering items - which are rewards for a skill - is like stopping anyone with over 90 magic from warring. Higher mage levels means that your binds hit more often and you can splash binds when tanking - which is the reward of a high mage level. Exactly the same with Dung, the weapons are high level rewards for training.

 

So yea, I couldn't agree more. They are not limited to P2P, anyone can train the skill and they encourage the development of warring.

[LTH_Dev_Ranges]

Thanks for the support HARichards :)

[jeffreyp]

DG might be frustrating when you first try it out but when you do it with friends and get enough tokens the hard work pays off, you simply own with the gravite weapons. I am jeffreyp and i approve this message.

 

I suggest getting a partner or 2 for doing dungeoneering like mine is romdath ##

[ReDrOc]

Dungeoneering items should be treated in the same way as Fist of Guthix items. You get them in a minigame (although Dg is a "skill"). You get items as part of rewards for playing. They both give you items that gives you an advantage, so I don't see why people hate people having fights where Dg are allowed whereas FoG items are. True, Dg items can be seen as overpowered but why not make use of that and get the items yourself?

[envymark]

Dg sucks, and I didnt max melee out with slayer. Bandits did it man!

 

Bandits ftw :)

 

tbh i dont mind dg in wars but it all comes down to the fact that if your not maxed melee will you then go for a dg item which would do less for you in the long run than getting max melee? because if i was max melee already ide be doing dg to get loads of tokens and dg items but im not, and i find that ide rather have max melee because what use is a wepon that has a bonus over a rune scim/ maple short when you wont hit often enough or to your full potential when you get it. likewise you wont be able to tank fully to ur potential without 99 def so why would you spend time getting a wepon when it meens theres more chance of you getting k0ed in wars. i like dg but tbh if you say it gives your clan an advantage what does constant training do for your clan? personally i think levels are more important than dg. i like dg but unless ur able to tank to your full potential then its not gonna help you much.

[Jifaru]

Dg sucks, and I didnt max melee out with slayer. Bandits did it man!

 

Bandits ftw :)

 

tbh i dont mind dg in wars but it all comes down to the fact that if your not maxed melee will you then go for a dg item which would do less for you in the long run than getting max melee? because if i was max melee already ide be doing dg to get loads of tokens and dg items but im not, and i find that ide rather have max melee because what use is a wepon that has a bonus over a rune scim/ maple short when you wont hit often enough or to your full potential when you get it. likewise you wont be able to tank fully to ur potential without 99 def so why would you spend time getting a wepon when it meens theres more chance of you getting k0ed in wars. i like dg but tbh if you say it gives your clan an advantage what does constant training do for your clan? personally i think levels are more important than dg. i like dg but unless ur able to tank to your full potential then its not gonna help you much.

 

With the addition of class rings especially, you might find that the experience you get from combat in Daemonheim actually isn't too bad. It's not powerleveling by any means, but you have access to better weapons than you would normally, f2p or p2p, and you're almost always in combat. I've gained a few million experience from fighting things in Daemonheim. But that isn't the main point:

 

You are 100% percent correct in recognizing that you have the freedom to choose whatever skill you work on in order to aid your warring abilities. If it takes the same time to you from 95-99 defense as it does to get from 1-64 dungeoneering, then by all means, go for the defense! How you choose to allocate your time and skills does not make a great big difference overall - as long as everyone is training to become better, then we win as a community.

 

@ jeffryp: I agree completely! DG is a great way to get more people from the clan involved. Throw in some dungeoneering events every week, and then you can train whatever skill you normally want to AND work towards gravite.

[Guthorm]

I think is just people are afraid to adapt, CWA has always considered to be "easy" mode due to the no item lose factor and the various item restrictions such as no fire blast because they are harder to tank. Maybe if Jagex introduce some better armor for f2p people may allow DG items into wars.

[Ts_Stormrage]

I don't need to read all of that to agree with your point: Dungeoneering items should become standard during fights. :thumbup:

Just like full blown blaster mages should, as well as THEIR dungeroneering equipment...

[20Rice04]

long story short: DG is less accessible than corrupt dragon/fog/rc items. You can get just about all the other equipment mentioned in a few hours, I think the longest one is the runecrafting staff at 6-8hours. All Fog Items can be bought and recharged. Corrupt is just a case of who's got the most cash.

 

DG on the other hand requires your commitment for the better part of 5 days in order to have enough tokens to buy one of those weapons. Most people feel that they have better stuff to do in that time.

 

It's standard for every person who goes into a war to have a rune zerker, rune gaunts and druidic/rc robes. Not everyone will have an rc staff admittedly, but they're hardly of a different strength and calibur that makes it possible for noobs to suddenly become amazing tanks.

 

It's not so bad going into a war knowing that your equipment is going to be the exact same as the enemies, but DG weapons upset this balance. You don't know how many weapons the oppoing team will have and it's unlikely that your entire clan (or even the majority of your members for that matter) is going to be kitted out with every weapon available from the minigame in their arsenal.

 

until a time comes where everyone has easy access to DG weapons I don't think they're going to become standard in wars.

[Jifaru]

long story short: DG is less accessible than corrupt dragon/fog/rc items. You can get just about all the other equipment mentioned in a few hours, I think the longest one is the runecrafting staff at 6-8hours. All Fog Items can be bought and recharged. Corrupt is just a case of who's got the most cash.

 

DG on the other hand requires your commitment for the better part of 5 days in order to have enough tokens to buy one of those weapons. Most people feel that they have better stuff to do in that time.

 

It's standard for every person who goes into a war to have a rune zerker, rune gaunts and druidic/rc robes. Not everyone will have an rc staff admittedly, but they're hardly of a different strength and calibur that makes it possible for noobs to suddenly become amazing tanks.

 

It's not so bad going into a war knowing that your equipment is going to be the exact same as the enemies, but DG weapons upset this balance. You don't know how many weapons the oppoing team will have and it's unlikely that your entire clan (or even the majority of your members for that matter) is going to be kitted out with every weapon available from the minigame in their arsenal.

 

until a time comes where everyone has easy access to DG weapons I don't think they're going to become standard in wars.

 

Thanks for bringing something new to the table.

 

But I will have to disagree with you on some points, because the story isn't as simple as you might want to make it look. All costs considered, we must weigh a few key factors in determining accessibility. As I pointed out in the actual post itself, one of the most important criteria we can use is that of the cost (opportunity cost or otherwise) and the derived benefit. First of all, Dungeoneering experience scales very well through Level 69, when you can reach maximum XP/hr. While it may take a few days getting from 1-64, once you hit max prestige, it can take as short as just four hours to get 40k tokens. While it might seem logical to say that because DG has a large initial training cost (in time), the same can be said for ANY combat skill, be it defense, constitution, or magic. And may I point out - the experience rates for training these skills are severely limited, especially in F2P.

 

Now let's examine the effects of putting in the same amount of time in a different activity. Now let's go back to the old days when we DIDN'T have max melee. Let me assure you that it took MORE than the better part of five days to get the stats I have right now. And arguably, the effects of getting from 96 to 99 strength, or 96 to 99 defense, are more drastic than the marginal stats earned from using a gravite weapon. I must once again remind everyone that accessibility is hardly a meaningful way of looking at DG, unless you assume that gravite is nothing more than just another minigame reward. As for what is "standard," even the items you provided are variable depending on clan. For example, many clans do not use rune gauntlets because they prefer using leather gloves for binding. There are some fairly established and well-respected players who do not bind in a rune berserker, instead choosing to wear an anti-dragonfire shield.

 

And here's the kicker, I believe you spoke best when you said

 

until a time comes where everyone has easy access to DG weapons I don't think they're going to become standard in wars.

 

But it is unfortunate that many people perceive that they don't have easy access to DG weapons, when that isn't the case. It costs nothing to get from 1-64. After the surface dungeon update, there is a tangible benefit to be had from leveling up DG. Dungeoneering is the ONLY noncombat skill available to F2P that is indirectly linked to combat, similar to Slayer for P2P. Leveling up DG is not the same as buying a minigame item - it is an extension of your combat stats by just that extra +5 stab attack, or that extra +4 strength. If you have dropped the time to get max melee, or anything close to that, how in the world am I supposed to believe that you have "better stuff to do" than to spend a tiny sliver of that time to get a gravite weapon? It's simply inconceivable!

 

Now let's talk about accessibility some more. How many people legitimately "have access" to a 99 combat skill? For those who have limited playing time, I must point out that the difference between 92 and 99 is a twofold increase in experience. To get those last seven levels, you must double the amount of training that you have ever done. Granted, you will hit better and level up faster, but the time is still monumental. Now let's talk about Runecrafting Staves. First, RC staves DO increase your ability to shrug off binds significantly. When many people are binding with minimal accuracy (<30, perhaps even less if using RFH/zerker/gauntlets), an increase in +6 magic defense over a regular staff's +10 is a HUGE increase that repeatedly influences the chance of getting bound. Now we're not talking about magically turning some noob into a godly tank - we're talking about average (if not above average) tankers who know what to do - having that +16 magic defense will ALWAYS throw the RNG gods in your favor, and by a very large amount too.

 

Now let's look at the +50 stab attack of gravite rapier compared to the +45 slash of the rune scimitar. Going back to the previous point of RC staves, a +16 v +10 bonus is a 60% increase in effectiveness. Coupled with the very low magic attack cap of F2P, you will see a great increase in effectiveness in resisting binds and blasts using a RC staff. Comparatively, let's examine the marginal benefits of gaining about +9 points of attack overall when factoring in the effectiveness of full rune + rune zerker against stab/slash attacks. This is but a 20% increase in attack effectiveness, and this is before we compare that number to the whopping defense of full rune, which is well over +200. I don't claim to know exactly how each of these numbers interact with each other, but if we assume that all attack and armor bonuses are percentage modifiers to your base stats, you want to be in a situation in which RNG is swung in your favor. RC staves do this FAR more than Gravite, and a clan with all RC staves WILL outperform an equally skilled, equally leveled clan using regular staves, assuming RNG screws are not in the picture.

 

But I think I digress. How long does it take F2P to get 50 RC AND 10k tokens?

 

There NEVER has been the "balance" you speak of in warring. Gravite isn't a reflection of anything but your clan's dedication to train harder in order to push for a slight competitive edge. Just like attack. Strength. Defense. Constitution. Ranged. Magic.

[Danny_TeamDan]

I'd personally rather challenge myself in tanking all styles than allowing the few people who have dg. (Blasting is accessible to everyone)

 

Like I said, I'm fine with DG on, and there are quite a few others all you have to do is push clans a lil harder when getting wars or work out a deal, or just focus on the clans that do like DG.

[20Rice04]

@jif, rather than quote that post since it's a daddy just thought I'd make one last point:

 

I think another factor which has contributed to the lack of popularity with DG is because the update gave us new WEAPONS. New armour fine, we're not too bothered- no matter the def bonus I doubt it's going to exceed 250/300+ for f2p wars so people will always be k0d and downed quickly enough if you have a good range squad.

 

But weapons- that just throws things out of proportion entirely. Even with 50% of people with that +6 mage bonus from the rc staff in your clan, can be counter-acted by 10+ binders. The rune berzerker + gauntlets gave small increases in melee and range defences, nothing monumental. While druidic/combat/rc mage gear was considered a blessing because until they were released magic didn't really have armour (old school robes chaps and wiz hat are pretty crap in terms of bonuses.) But Gravite and longbow sights!? waow, how do you counter that stuff? How can a clan say "okay, they've currently got 3 snipers out, all with Grav 2Hs" All you can really do is traditional anti-sniping- and even then, Gravite can hit 300+ on someone in full rune; 3 people getting lucky is all it takes....

 

The presence of these new weapons tips the balance of a war to whoever has the most of them. It's a mixture of paranoia and inexperience with DG weapons in wars that makes seeing them turned 'on' unusual.

 

The other factor that has obviously influenced my opinion on the matter is my clanning back ground. I'm from an all levels clan, as such not every tom [bleep] and harry has 120+ combat, it's something many of us are working towards. Clans like Lethality, Downfall and T0 who cwa regularly AND have a vast number of 110/115/120+ members have it slightly easier in the sense that they may not have much else better to do with their time on rs, but even at that there's always the appeal of skills, or the main reason that we're MEANT to play for: fun.

 

Then there's the pickle that these high levels have if they're f2p: levels 90+ have 50% of their DG experience (and thereby tokens gained) removed. C'mon Jagex seriously what the [bleep]? Feel this is turning into a rant now but still :P I think you've got the general gist of things.

 

I'd say give it 6-9 months, if you see DG items being accepted more regularly in wars then that's going to become one of the standard warring rules: DG ON. If not then I fear that we're stuck in a world without DG being commonly accepted, forever.

[Snowblood]

I don't need to read all of that to agree with your point: Dungeoneering items should become standard during fights. :thumbup:

[LTH_Dev_Ranges]

@rice

 

In the original post we already pointed out that the DG weapons are not a monumental increase. And as we've said, aren't we trying to push the warring community forward, not keep it at a standstill. These new weapons force people to react faster and tank better, even though the change is not that much.

[Uffan5]

Doesn't really affect me since my clan doesn't pride ourselves on CWA but uses it more of practice and you don't see DG items used in pkri's. Personally i havn't even tried the new skill, so i can't really say much about it.

[pumkinpie37]

if you dont allow dg items why do clan allow fog items?

[LTH_Dev_Ranges]

Thats one of our points Pumkin.

[xMike]

Doesn't really affect me since my clan doesn't pride ourselves on CWA but uses it more of practice and you don't see DG items used in pkri's. Personally i havn't even tried the new skill, so i can't really say much about it.

Then why post?

 

OT

 

I do not see why it is even a problem. Dungeoneering items are stronger, yes, but they require work and effort to obtain them. Those players and clans who want to take it to the next level will go out for it. We have a group of 8 of us who regularly do dungeons as a group. It is because we have that pride and love for our clan that we are willing to spend those extra hours grinding out the xp. We do this because we want to see our clan grow. We want to better ourselves as individuals to increase the over all performance together as a clan. I don't see how someone can deny others of their rights to use these weapons that they worked hard to obtain. If you're too lazy to go get your own, then you should have no right to complain. Chances are if these players had them, they'd want them on every war as well.

 

On another note, as said before, dungeoneering really does bring your clan together. We do daily dungeons and we have a blast. I've really gotten to know some of those members in my clan who I would never have had any connection with before. We've grown strong bonds that will always be there in the future. Bonds that will allow us to trust and build off eachother's strengths and weaknesses in wars. I know it's a tough process, but if you find a good group, it's really a great time.

[Makaaveli]

Never skilled before, just feels sad for me personally (honestly don't mean this in a bad way or anything) =/ Guess i'll always be at a disadvantage if DG rules on.

 

if you dont allow dg items why do clan allow fog items?

Because you can buy most of the fog items from GE. Maybe you geniunly play rs so its different for you, but I know alot of people that only log on for wars or PKRI.

[Uffan5]

Doesn't really affect me since my clan doesn't pride ourselves on CWA but uses it more of practice and you don't see DG items used in pkri's. Personally i havn't even tried the new skill, so i can't really say much about it.

Then why post?

Post count duh!! :shades:

[zq50]

If you need the weapons, dungeon with romdath then. kthx.

[CruelKiller]

Everyone has their own preferences so :l...

[Jifaru]

Awesome post, DFMike, you really hit the heart of the issue.

 

Everyone has their own preferences so :l...

 

Yes, but this isn't about single individuals. This is about the strength of clans as a whole, and the integrity of the CW community to accept the potential of DG, instead of shunning it because they don't want to put in the time to train it. That's really what it's about. Few people who have trained DG extensively will complain about gravite weapons or the DG experience.

 

I am not at all swayed by the argument that "people don't want DG now," because that is a reflection of an existing problem, not an answer to the question. If we bend to the opinions of those who just "don't feel like training DG," we are committing a terrible sin against the progress of CW.