Abortion

[Assume Nothing]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?

"Is it really killing?"

 

I consider abortion 'Letting the thing die', not 'Killing it'. Depends on the method, ofcourse.

 

Would you call miscarriages murder?

[KittyKat]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?

"Is it really killing?"

 

I consider abortion 'Letting the thing die', not 'Killing it'. Depends on the method, ofcourse.

 

Would you call miscarriages murder?

 

I don't see anything wrong with killing non sentient organisms.

[Assume Nothing]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?

"Is it really killing?"

 

I consider abortion 'Letting the thing die', not 'Killing it'. Depends on the method, ofcourse.

 

Would you call miscarriages murder?

 

I don't see anything wrong with killing non sentient organisms.

 

Wait - I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Nevermind.

 

But - How can you be sure something isn't sentient? Run tests on it in a lab?

 

Apparently, even plants can be sentient. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/plants/news-feeling-plants-how-sensitive-flora

[KittyKat]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?

"Is it really killing?"

 

I consider abortion 'Letting the thing die', not 'Killing it'. Depends on the method, ofcourse.

 

Would you call miscarriages murder?

 

I don't see anything wrong with killing non sentient organisms.

 

Wait - I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Nevermind.

 

But - How can you be sure something isn't sentient? Run tests on it in a lab?

 

Apparently, even plants can be sentient. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/plants/news-feeling-plants-how-sensitive-flora

 

Plants react with no thought process which constitutes they are (by most standards) not sentient.

[Orpheus]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?

"Is it really killing?"

 

I consider abortion 'Letting the thing die', not 'Killing it'. Depends on the method, ofcourse.

 

Would you call miscarriages murder?

 

I don't see anything wrong with killing non sentient organisms.

 

Wait - I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Nevermind.

 

But - How can you be sure something isn't sentient? Run tests on it in a lab?

 

Apparently, even plants can be sentient. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/plants/news-feeling-plants-how-sensitive-flora

 

Plants react with no thought process which constitutes they are (by most standards) not sentient.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentient

1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>

 

And what "standards" are you referring to? I think those plants fit the sentient definition rather well.

[KittyKat]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?

"Is it really killing?"

 

I consider abortion 'Letting the thing die', not 'Killing it'. Depends on the method, ofcourse.

 

Would you call miscarriages murder?

 

I don't see anything wrong with killing non sentient organisms.

 

Wait - I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Nevermind.

 

But - How can you be sure something isn't sentient? Run tests on it in a lab?

 

Apparently, even plants can be sentient. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/plants/news-feeling-plants-how-sensitive-flora

 

Plants react with no thought process which constitutes they are (by most standards) not sentient.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentient

1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>

 

And what "standards" are you referring to? I think those plants fit the sentient definition rather well.

 

Plants are not "aware" of their environment. They do react to stimuli but the reaction is impulsive, not conscious.

[Orpheus]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?

"Is it really killing?"

 

I consider abortion 'Letting the thing die', not 'Killing it'. Depends on the method, ofcourse.

 

Would you call miscarriages murder?

 

I don't see anything wrong with killing non sentient organisms.

 

Wait - I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Nevermind.

 

But - How can you be sure something isn't sentient? Run tests on it in a lab?

 

Apparently, even plants can be sentient. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/plants/news-feeling-plants-how-sensitive-flora

 

Plants react with no thought process which constitutes they are (by most standards) not sentient.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentient

1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>

 

And what "standards" are you referring to? I think those plants fit the sentient definition rather well.

 

Plants are not "aware" of their environment. They do react to stimuli but the reaction is impulsive, not conscious.

 

That definition doesn't mention the word "aware" at all. Even then, the operative word is "or" in that definition. Nowhere in that definition does it state that thought has to be involved either. I'm not in the mood to really argue semantics, but still. It could be responsive to sense impressions, OR conscious of sense impressions. I'm using a denotation of the word, you're using a connotation at best. And I still haven't seen what your "standard" is.

[obfuscator]

when it really comes down to it pro-lifers hate women. They care only about the baby for 9 months, then allow the single mother to be in poverty and then send the kid to die in a war on their 18th birthday.

 

Such would be the republican agenda

You know what's appalling? The number of abortionists that are convicted felons.

http://abortionviolence.com/INDEX.HTM

You know is sad?A 2009 study showed that 64% of woman feel pressure to have an abortion.

 

You say that pro-lifers hate women, but we're the ones that are running extensive networks to help crisis pregnancies. Half of being a sidewalk counselor is knowing where to take women after they change their minds. The other half usually involves praying in front of an abortion facility.

But really, under all that prayer and support for total strangers, we really do hate women.

Yeah bro. My mom hates women too, yeah. So do my sisters. So does my girlfriend. So do the hundreds of other women I've met who are staunchly pro-life.

 

They hate women. All of them.

[Iamdan]

The 'pro lifers hate women' thing is from george carlin, and it's taken out of context. He's talking about conservatives.

 

 

language warning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM

[obfuscator]

Actually, it's quite a common opinion of the ultra-left. I can think of numerous occasions where the argument has come up that "pro-lifers just want to trap women in their own bodies, put them down, etc".

[Alg]

Actually, it's quite a common opinion of the ultra-left. I can think of numerous occasions where the argument has come up that "pro-lifers just want to trap women in their own bodies, put them down, etc".

At one point a user actually compared it to slavery. He was being serious.

[KittyKat]

That definition doesn't mention the word "aware" at all. Even then, the operative word is "or" in that definition. Nowhere in that definition does it state that thought has to be involved either. I'm not in the mood to really argue semantics, but still. It could be responsive to sense impressions, OR conscious of sense impressions. I'm using a denotation of the word, you're using a connotation at best. And I still haven't seen what your "standard" is.

 

 

When was the last time you saw a plant make a decision? When was the last time you saw a plant have self awareness?

I recommend you read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

Something you failed to do with the article you presented.

[Alg]

Within 9 months it will start to become unmistakably human though. A fetus is a process, you can't compare it to another species, especially one in a completely different kingdom (Plants versus vertebrates?)

[Dizzle229]

But a fetus is not conscious. It cannot feel. It cannot think. It cannot regret losing the life it may have had. A woman has all of these things. She is conscious. She can feel the emotions of helplessness. She can think of all the problems it will cause down the road. She can regret sacrificing the rest of her life to care for a child.

[Alg]

But a fetus is not conscious. It cannot feel. It cannot think. It cannot regret losing the life it may have had. A woman has all of these things. She is conscious. She can feel the emotions of helplessness. She can think of all the problems it will cause down the road. She can regret sacrificing the rest of her life to care for a child.

And so she should be able to choose to end the fetus's pre-life before it starts to gain its functions.

I just think it's ridiculous to compare them to trees. A fetus will eventually become self-aware. A redwood will not.

[Dizzle229]

But a fetus is not conscious. It cannot feel. It cannot think. It cannot regret losing the life it may have had. A woman has all of these things. She is conscious. She can feel the emotions of helplessness. She can think of all the problems it will cause down the road. She can regret sacrificing the rest of her life to care for a child.

And so she should be able to choose to end the fetus's pre-life before it starts to gain its functions.

I just think it's ridiculous to compare them to trees. A fetus will eventually become self-aware. A redwood will not.

Ah, I see what you mean now.

[Orpheus]

That definition doesn't mention the word "aware" at all. Even then, the operative word is "or" in that definition. Nowhere in that definition does it state that thought has to be involved either. I'm not in the mood to really argue semantics, but still. It could be responsive to sense impressions, OR conscious of sense impressions. I'm using a denotation of the word, you're using a connotation at best. And I still haven't seen what your "standard" is.

 

 

When was the last time you saw a plant make a decision? When was the last time you saw a plant have self awareness?

I recommend you read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

Something you failed to do with the article you presented.

 

And my point that the plant qualifies for being sentient by that definition alone still stands. It doesn't have to necessarily be aware in order for it to be sentient, if the dictionary definition is to be believed. And you still dodged my statement of "OR". It doesn't have to be conscious. I'll acknowledge that awareness can be a part of sentience, but it isn't necessarily a requirement, like the ability to feel. One must be present though for it to fill the definition.

 

And just to make things clear, "Plants are not "aware" of their environment. They do react to stimuli but the reaction is impulsive, not conscious." was what I was referring to by my first definition. If you want, I could kill this entire argument with a simple programming analogy.

[Iamdan]

But a fetus is not conscious. It cannot feel. It cannot think. It cannot regret losing the life it may have had. A woman has all of these things. She is conscious. She can feel the emotions of helplessness. She can think of all the problems it will cause down the road. She can regret sacrificing the rest of her life to care for a child.

And so she should be able to choose to end the fetus's pre-life before it starts to gain its functions.

I just think it's ridiculous to compare them to trees. A fetus will eventually become self-aware. A redwood will not.

 

The ability to become self aware is a mere property. So is being self aware. Why are these properties more important than others? Because humans have self awareness. It's a self interest thing.

[Alg]

The ability to become self aware is a mere property. So is being self aware. Why are these properties more important than others? Because humans have self awareness. It's a self interest thing.

The whole issue is. We're dealing with our own species, after all. The question seems to be whose interests though. Whose potential do we limit, the mother's, or her child's? Pro choice lets the mother decide, pro life chooses the child.

 

Both of 'em are moral choices too, so nobody can really claim that theirs is the logical one. :shades:

[Iamdan]

Ok, that was a stupid point.

 

New one: The mother is a human life, the fetus only has the ability to become life.

 

Before "but if you keep the fetus both will live," that is really only relevant if humanity is facing extinction.

[Alg]

In the event of an abortion the mother will still have the ability to create life as well. Childbirth isn't a one-shot thing. If she aborts one fetus, she could still have her child when she's ready.

 

Again, if the mother wants to keep it, that's her call. If she wants to abort it, that's on her. Doesn't matter whether or not any of us likes it, except maybe if one of us is the father.

[Iamdan]

Also true.

[Dupin]

You guys are over-complicating this. It's really a matter of personal beliefs, and trying to debate it with rational arguments only entrenches everyone further in their own ideas.

 

I'm pro-choice because I believe a woman should be able to make important decisions involving her own body. Since it's a personal matter, making the mother's choice for her would be silly.

 

I also believe a fetus is not a person, or at least is an inconsequential death. It's the past that makes the person, and a fetus has no past.

[obfuscator]

In the event of an abortion the mother will still have the ability to create life as well. Childbirth isn't a one-shot thing. If she aborts one fetus, she could still have her child when she's ready.

 

Again, if the mother wants to keep it, that's her call. If she wants to abort it, that's on her. Doesn't matter whether or not any of us likes it, except maybe if one of us is the father.

Except unfortunately, the father doesn't have any say in the matter either...

[sees_all1]

In the event of an abortion the mother will still have the ability to create life as well. Childbirth isn't a one-shot thing. If she aborts one fetus, she could still have her child when she's ready.

 

Again, if the mother wants to keep it, that's her call. If she wants to abort it, that's on her. Doesn't matter whether or not any of us likes it, except maybe if one of us is the father.

 

Induced abortion increases the risk of future births being premature, and increases the risk of breast cancer. Also, after so many abortions, the amount of scar tissue inside a woman gets to the point where they're sterile.

 

It might be her call, but its not a good solution for her long term.