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Dungeoneering Shields Discussion


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#21
xSxqPowerx
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The problem is that they only reduce the damage over 200. Once you take a hit over 200 they should reduce the entire hit by x%.

Instead of (300-200)*.14=reduction
It should just be (300)*.14=reduction

Still not better than divine/ely, but at least the damage reduction would be good for ko reducing in pvp, and sort of useful for pvm.

#22
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I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...
I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.
My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

I'd like to pose:
You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)

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#23
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I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...
I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.
My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

I'd like to pose:
You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)


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#24
TheAncient
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I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...
I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.
My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

I'd like to pose:
You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)


i mean if the fks is a byproduct of you training dg, then yeah it's "cheaper". but looking at it only from the shield perspective, fks has a higher opportunity cost (if u have bad teams)
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#25
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I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...
I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.
My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

I'd like to pose:
You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)


i mean if the fks is a byproduct of you training dg, then yeah it's "cheaper". but looking at it only from the shield perspective, fks has a higher opportunity cost (if u have bad teams)


If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.
If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c
;) inb4 haters

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#26
green9090
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I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...
I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.
My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

I'd like to pose:
You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)

My argument is this: you pay by the hour of combat (often quite a lot in CW because you're in multi, which is proven to drain chaotics much faster) for a shield that is at its best slightly better defensively than the DFS while being worse offensively (losing out on 7 str) and crippled against magic (-5 vs +10 is a LOT for mage def). Even if the CKS were free, I would never, ever use it over a DFS or rune defender. There isn't a niche for high melee/ranged defense when it comes with those costs, unless you're talking about randomly blowing money for a slight advantage in a couple of PvP scenarios. If it were WAY BETTER for CW, then sure, that'd be great, but it's sometimes slightly better, sometimes a lot worse, and always costs more.

If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.
If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c
;) inb4 haters


This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.
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the MINIMUM opportunity cost of buying a dungeoneering shield is 18m, since that's the amount of gp that you would save if you used those tokens to recharge chaotic weapons/shields. this is 18m that you can never, ever get back.

#28
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If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.
If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c
;) inb4 haters


This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.


Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3

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#29
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If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.
If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c
;) inb4 haters


This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.


Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3

I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time.

I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly.
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#30
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well when i got my first two rapiers, i hated dging, but after like 85 dg it got a lot more fun

#31
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If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.
If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c
;) inb4 haters


This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.


Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3

I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time.

I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly.


Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

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#32
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Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with.

Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train.
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#33
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Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with.

Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train.


Ah, well 70 and below is such a small minority and hence, should be disregarded. My main point was, the people who hate dungeoneering have very little practice in it, they're not sure what to do, what rooms to clear, to follow the keyer or not, should i gate this? Etc etc, furthermore, because they're only in the skill for said rewards, the majority do not wish to learn how to improve themself, as they're just going to throw the skill away in a few days anyway.

Edit: I'm off to work, so if you reply i may have to reply back to you when i finish
Cheers, hope you can see where i'm coming from
I understand what you're saying, however i still partially, ya, partially, stand by what i said ;).

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#34
green9090
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Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with.

Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train.


Ah, well 70 and below is such a small minority and hence, should be disregarded. My main point was, the people who hate dungeoneering have very little practice in it, they're not sure what to do, what rooms to clear, to follow the keyer or not, should i gate this? Etc etc, furthermore, because they're only in the skill for said rewards, the majority do not wish to learn how to improve themself, as they're just going to throw the skill away in a few days anyway.

Not in my experience. Most of the people who didn't suck I met on my way to 80 hated it.

The reason everyone post 85 or so likes it for the most part is because everyone who hated it got their rewards and left already. Of course everyone left at our levels likes it because otherwise why play?
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#35
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Faster dungeons are more enjoyable. Why is this even a discussion?
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#36
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Faster dungeons are more enjoyable. Why is this even a discussion?

Because, terrifyingly, some people really like making a full set of armor, farming a few strong pots, and killing everything in the whole dungeon before taking out the boss and ending.

These people tend to get inexplicably angry when you try to rush them.
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#37
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I tested my Eagle eye with a friend of mine.

I soaked 38 lp, and he hit a 359 on me.
That whole 14% of the damage over 200...is BS.

without the soak, he would have hit a 393 on me.
393-200 = 193
14% of 193 = 27

according to the calculations that have been presented, the 38 soak should not be possible.

That being said, the dungeoneering reward shields are not worth getting, except for the Eagle-eye (imo) for warring.

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#38
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I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time.

I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly.


Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)


I was thinking the same thing as I read. As far as "people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time," I more or less thought, "Sounds like 117 :ohnoes: ."

I never realised how crappy 117 got, until the other night when 148 was dead, I hopped to 117. Biggest mistake of my DGing history...

But as far as randoms go, there are some decent random teams. Today, I keyed a 27 min F43, the team was that good (Some might consider 27 min F43 "average," but it's decent for me, especially for not having a perm team).

Finally, I must say this. DG is much faster now for me, because I'm not doing it for the rewards. 1-80 took me so long, because I was just DGing to get a Chaotic. Now it goes so much faster, because I'm focused on the levels/fun I get from DG, rather than the rewards. I think this is something most 100+ DGers can agree with.
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#39
Youmu
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Lol, because of a statement about dungeoneering rewards the topic has completely derailed...

But onto the topic. Jagex needs to give these shields a STATIC 20%/10% soak, and not capped at hits over 200. This should make the shields far more useful than before.

Also, I like to rush dungeons a lot too, but do I hate dungeoneering? No, I don't. I think W117'ers are the true dungeon haters, which explains why they're so inefficient.

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#40
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Lol, because of a statement about dungeoneering rewards the topic has completely derailed...

But onto the topic. Jagex needs to give these shields a STATIC 20%/10% soak, and not capped at hits over 200. This should make the shields far more useful than before.

Also, I like to rush dungeons a lot too, but do I hate dungeoneering? No, I don't. I think W117'ers are the true dungeon haters, which explains why they're so inefficient.


They almost all were inefficient at different times.
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