green9090 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters. I'd like to pose:You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol). (Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)My argument is this: you pay by the hour of combat (often quite a lot in CW because you're in multi, which is proven to drain chaotics much faster) for a shield that is at its best slightly better defensively than the DFS while being worse offensively (losing out on 7 str) and crippled against magic (-5 vs +10 is a LOT for mage def). Even if the CKS were free, I would never, ever use it over a DFS or rune defender. There isn't a niche for high melee/ranged defense when it comes with those costs, unless you're talking about randomly blowing money for a slight advantage in a couple of PvP scenarios. If it were WAY BETTER for CW, then sure, that'd be great, but it's sometimes slightly better, sometimes a lot worse, and always costs more. If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c;) inb4 haters This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly. The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around. Join "DG Sweepers" Clan Chat for Dungeoneering Floors | Accepting all tipiters who are Willing to Learn | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladewing Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 the MINIMUM opportunity cost of buying a dungeoneering shield is 18m, since that's the amount of gp that you would save if you used those tokens to recharge chaotic weapons/shields. this is 18m that you can never, ever get back. How to Chin Nechyraels for fast XP and profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieBrown Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c;) inb4 haters This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly. The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around. Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3 Main Account - Max cape achieved 10th September 2011 Noob Account - 2300 total and climbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green9090 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c;) inb4 haters This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly. The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around. Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time. I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly. Join "DG Sweepers" Clan Chat for Dungeoneering Floors | Accepting all tipiters who are Willing to Learn | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladewing Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 well when i got my first two rapiers, i hated dging, but after like 85 dg it got a lot more fun How to Chin Nechyraels for fast XP and profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieBrown Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c;) inb4 haters This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly. The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around. Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time. I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly. Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;) Main Account - Max cape achieved 10th September 2011 Noob Account - 2300 total and climbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green9090 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with. Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train. Join "DG Sweepers" Clan Chat for Dungeoneering Floors | Accepting all tipiters who are Willing to Learn | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieBrown Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with. Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train. Ah, well 70 and below is such a small minority and hence, should be disregarded. My main point was, the people who hate dungeoneering have very little practice in it, they're not sure what to do, what rooms to clear, to follow the keyer or not, should i gate this? Etc etc, furthermore, because they're only in the skill for said rewards, the majority do not wish to learn how to improve themself, as they're just going to throw the skill away in a few days anyway. Edit: I'm off to work, so if you reply i may have to reply back to you when i finishCheers, hope you can see where i'm coming fromI understand what you're saying, however i still partially, ya, partially, stand by what i said ;). Main Account - Max cape achieved 10th September 2011 Noob Account - 2300 total and climbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green9090 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with. Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train. Ah, well 70 and below is such a small minority and hence, should be disregarded. My main point was, the people who hate dungeoneering have very little practice in it, they're not sure what to do, what rooms to clear, to follow the keyer or not, should i gate this? Etc etc, furthermore, because they're only in the skill for said rewards, the majority do not wish to learn how to improve themself, as they're just going to throw the skill away in a few days anyway.Not in my experience. Most of the people who didn't suck I met on my way to 80 hated it. The reason everyone post 85 or so likes it for the most part is because everyone who hated it got their rewards and left already. Of course everyone left at our levels likes it because otherwise why play? Join "DG Sweepers" Clan Chat for Dungeoneering Floors | Accepting all tipiters who are Willing to Learn | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAncient Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Faster dungeons are more enjoyable. Why is this even a discussion? Ever wanted to find street prices of RS items? Check out the SPOLI Index Nex Drops: Pernix Cowl, Pernix Chaps, Torva Helm, Torva Platebody, Zaryte Bow, Pernix Chaps, Virtus Robe Legs, Virtus Robe Top, Torva Platelegs, Zaryte Bow, Pernix Chaps, Virtus Robe Legs, Zaryte Bow, Virtus Mask, Torva Legs, Virtus Robe Legs, Virtus Robe Top, Virtus Robe Top, Zaryte Bow, Virtus Robe Legs, Virtus Robe Top, Virtus Robe Top, Torva Platelegs, Zaryte Bow, Pernix Body, Torva Platelegs, Torva Platelegs, Virtus Robe Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green9090 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Faster dungeons are more enjoyable. Why is this even a discussion?Because, terrifyingly, some people really like making a full set of armor, farming a few strong pots, and killing everything in the whole dungeon before taking out the boss and ending. These people tend to get inexplicably angry when you try to rush them. Join "DG Sweepers" Clan Chat for Dungeoneering Floors | Accepting all tipiters who are Willing to Learn | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirIzenhime Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I tested my Eagle eye with a friend of mine. I soaked 38 lp, and he hit a 359 on me.That whole 14% of the damage over 200...is BS. without the soak, he would have hit a 393 on me.393-200 = 19314% of 193 = 27 according to the calculations that have been presented, the 38 soak should not be possible. That being said, the dungeoneering reward shields are not worth getting, except for the Eagle-eye (imo) for warring. Fisher/Woodcut------Me-----Miner/crafter----Stabber----Leecher ^Golvellius must be so proud^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyingSilent Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time. I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly. Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;) I was thinking the same thing as I read. As far as "people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time," I more or less thought, "Sounds like 117 :ohnoes: ." I never realised how crappy 117 got, until the other night when 148 was dead, I hopped to 117. Biggest mistake of my DGing history... But as far as randoms go, there are some decent random teams. Today, I keyed a 27 min F43, the team was that good (Some might consider 27 min F43 "average," but it's decent for me, especially for not having a perm team). Finally, I must say this. DG is much faster now for me, because I'm not doing it for the rewards. 1-80 took me so long, because I was just DGing to get a Chaotic. Now it goes so much faster, because I'm focused on the levels/fun I get from DG, rather than the rewards. I think this is something most 100+ DGers can agree with. 2461/2496 Total, 35 levels to CompletionistSunstriker: Path to Completionist Cape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youmu Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Lol, because of a statement about dungeoneering rewards the topic has completely derailed... But onto the topic. Jagex needs to give these shields a STATIC 20%/10% soak, and not capped at hits over 200. This should make the shields far more useful than before. Also, I like to rush dungeons a lot too, but do I hate dungeoneering? No, I don't. I think W117'ers are the true dungeon haters, which explains why they're so inefficient. BlogTrimmed | Master Quester | Final BossBoss pets: Bombi | Shrimpy | Ellie | Tz-Rek Jad | Karil the Bobbled | Mega Ducklings120s: Dungeoneering | Invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyingSilent Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Lol, because of a statement about dungeoneering rewards the topic has completely derailed... But onto the topic. Jagex needs to give these shields a STATIC 20%/10% soak, and not capped at hits over 200. This should make the shields far more useful than before. Also, I like to rush dungeons a lot too, but do I hate dungeoneering? No, I don't. I think W117'ers are the true dungeon haters, which explains why they're so inefficient. They almost all were inefficient at different times. 2461/2496 Total, 35 levels to CompletionistSunstriker: Path to Completionist Cape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youmu Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 They almost all were inefficient at different times.Which is why they almost all quit dg at different times ;) Seriously though Jagex, FIX THE FREAKING SHIELD PROBLEM. BlogTrimmed | Master Quester | Final BossBoss pets: Bombi | Shrimpy | Ellie | Tz-Rek Jad | Karil the Bobbled | Mega Ducklings120s: Dungeoneering | Invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 They wouldn't have to remove the 200 damage limit if they upped the soak to 20% and 40% or so. If you'd be hit for 600 damage, you only take 600-0.4(600-200)=440 damage, which is a pretty high reduction. Of course the problem is that it wouldn't be particulary useful as you would usually pray against whatever style would be able to KO you, but it might be useful for safe pvp/corp (only when under direct attack)/Jad/tanking Kril with protect mage or so. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Kurity Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol). Because dung XP is useless after 85 unless your in it for the e-peen. Everything after that has tokens as the primary objective. And thus you measure the efficiency of gaining tokens in comparison to gaining money. O.O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumondskull6 Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 An average dungeon is 27 minutes? I can't remember the last 5:5 large I did that took less than an hour on world 148 >.< Can someone please explain how in the hell youbare doing dungeons so fast, and where I can find teams like this at level 75 dg, 136 cmb, P2H and plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieBrown Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 An average dungeon is 27 minutes? I can't remember the last 5:5 large I did that took less than an hour on world 148 >.< Can someone please explain how in the hell youbare doing dungeons so fast, and where I can find teams like this at level 75 dg, 136 cmb, P2H and plate? Well, #1, you have 75 dungeoneering. No pro team is going to take that on w 148, you'll have w 177 prods trying to be pro, thus, longer floors.Secondly, no hood? = longer floors. Got a mime room? Guess what, without a hood, you HAVE to clear that room, with a hood? You save 2 minutes, these things add up. The hood is just, way better. Not having a go at you, and the hood thing is totally not your fault (most likely, unless you got a drop and didn't bind it), you'll get faster dungeons as you gain more experience and better binds. Main Account - Max cape achieved 10th September 2011 Noob Account - 2300 total and climbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articultural Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.Not exactly what we were supposed to discuss; but lets go for it!You have to consider if the superior melee and ranged defence of the primal platebody, could make it a better option than the ward.The ward has decent maged defence. With both platebody and ward, if only 1 style was attacking you, you would pray against that style.With the Platebody you would pray against magic in a dangerous room with all 3 styles.With ward you wouldn't know what to pray against as for the ward beeing a shield that works with the "tank ring" - its very easy to find an antifire shield Kind of offtopic, but if you bind a primal plate + celestial surgebox then you can still use your tank ring + get +7 Mage defence/attack without losing a bind slot (as box counts as ammo). It's also great for higher tier forgotten warriors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othelbark Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I just read this page and it seems that the shields don't soak damage at (x-200)*0.14 (x being damage). But instead soak 14 or 7% of the whole hit, provided the hit would have done more than 200 damage. [spoiler=Goals]Quest cape: Complete! (for now) All stats 70+: If you are my enemy: May Guthix bring you Rest!Dragon drops: 2 d meds.Barrows: Dharok platebody, d med. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAncient Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 kb is notoriously untrustworthybut if you're right it soaks an avg of about 10 percent for 500 max, 5 percent for a 300 max formula for average reuction is max-200/max times 0.14 if so the shields are collectively better than ely for trbriding in pvpcks would be about as good as ely against rangefks would be better than arc and arguably better than ely while magingeels would be better than ely against mage could we get someone to test this jagged fails communication 3 times. mod and kb disagree yet again Ever wanted to find street prices of RS items? Check out the SPOLI Index Nex Drops: Pernix Cowl, Pernix Chaps, Torva Helm, Torva Platebody, Zaryte Bow, Pernix Chaps, Virtus Robe Legs, Virtus Robe Top, Torva Platelegs, Zaryte Bow, Pernix Chaps, Virtus Robe Legs, Zaryte Bow, Virtus Mask, Torva Legs, Virtus Robe Legs, Virtus Robe Top, Virtus Robe Top, Zaryte Bow, Virtus Robe Legs, Virtus Robe Top, Virtus Robe Top, Torva Platelegs, Zaryte Bow, Pernix Body, Torva Platelegs, Torva Platelegs, Virtus Robe Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyingSilent Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.Not exactly what we were supposed to discuss; but lets go for it!You have to consider if the superior melee and ranged defence of the primal platebody, could make it a better option than the ward.The ward has decent maged defence. With both platebody and ward, if only 1 style was attacking you, you would pray against that style.With the Platebody you would pray against magic in a dangerous room with all 3 styles.With ward you wouldn't know what to pray against as for the ward beeing a shield that works with the "tank ring" - its very easy to find an antifire shield Kind of offtopic, but if you bind a primal plate + celestial surgebox then you can still use your tank ring + get +7 Mage defence/attack without losing a bind slot (as box counts as ammo). It's also great for higher tier forgotten warriors. I've heard multiple discussions as to whether CSB works as a shield for the tank ring or not. Can someone please confirm? I have primal battleaxe and CSB bound now (as well as hood, obviously), and if CSB counts as a shield, that's just that much better for me. 2461/2496 Total, 35 levels to CompletionistSunstriker: Path to Completionist Cape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieBrown Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.Not exactly what we were supposed to discuss; but lets go for it!You have to consider if the superior melee and ranged defence of the primal platebody, could make it a better option than the ward.The ward has decent maged defence. With both platebody and ward, if only 1 style was attacking you, you would pray against that style.With the Platebody you would pray against magic in a dangerous room with all 3 styles.With ward you wouldn't know what to pray against as for the ward beeing a shield that works with the "tank ring" - its very easy to find an antifire shield Kind of offtopic, but if you bind a primal plate + celestial surgebox then you can still use your tank ring + get +7 Mage defence/attack without losing a bind slot (as box counts as ammo). It's also great for higher tier forgotten warriors. I've heard multiple discussions as to whether CSB works as a shield for the tank ring or not. Can someone please confirm? I have primal battleaxe and CSB bound now (as well as hood, obviously), and if CSB counts as a shield, that's just that much better for me.The surgebox doesn't count as a shield, so don't use tank ring with it (from mod Chris L on HLF). Also from my experience you end up taking less damage using gatherer/artisan ring while keying. Taken from "pro dg'ing" topic, can't comment on the reliability of said quote, however Main Account - Max cape achieved 10th September 2011 Noob Account - 2300 total and climbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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