Dungeoneering Shields Discussion

[green9090]

I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...

I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.

My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

 

I'd like to pose:

You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

 

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)

My argument is this: you pay by the hour of combat (often quite a lot in CW because you're in multi, which is proven to drain chaotics much faster) for a shield that is at its best slightly better defensively than the DFS while being worse offensively (losing out on 7 str) and crippled against magic (-5 vs +10 is a LOT for mage def). Even if the CKS were free, I would never, ever use it over a DFS or rune defender. There isn't a niche for high melee/ranged defense when it comes with those costs, unless you're talking about randomly blowing money for a slight advantage in a couple of PvP scenarios. If it were WAY BETTER for CW, then sure, that'd be great, but it's sometimes slightly better, sometimes a lot worse, and always costs more.

 

If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.

If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c

;) inb4 haters

 

This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

 

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.

[Bladewing]

the MINIMUM opportunity cost of buying a dungeoneering shield is 18m, since that's the amount of gp that you would save if you used those tokens to recharge chaotic weapons/shields. this is 18m that you can never, ever get back.

[CharlieBrown]

 

If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.

If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c

;) inb4 haters

 

This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

 

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.

 

Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3

[green9090]

 

If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.

If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c

;) inb4 haters

 

This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

 

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.

 

Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3

I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time.

 

I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly.

[Bladewing]

well when i got my first two rapiers, i hated dging, but after like 85 dg it got a lot more fun

[CharlieBrown]

 

If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.

If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c

;) inb4 haters

 

This is a joke, right? People who enjoy dungeoneering are typically the ones who are against rushing and waste time screwing around with armor and clearing non GDs and fishing when there's food on the ground. The people who are in it solely for the rewards are motivated to get their tokens quickly.

 

The people who like to sit back and enjoy the skill are the ones who need to separate and find like-minded people rather than slowing down people who just want to get exp/tokens, not the other way around.

 

Not a joke, and i know many, many people with 100 + dungeoneering who do it ONLY because they like the skill, when you're that high, who cares about tokens. Realistically you already have all the chaotics/rewards you want, so tokens become useless. And none of them enjoy a slow dungeon :3

I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time.

 

I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly.

 

Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

[green9090]

Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with.

 

Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train.

[CharlieBrown]

Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with.

 

Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train.

 

Ah, well 70 and below is such a small minority and hence, should be disregarded. My main point was, the people who hate dungeoneering have very little practice in it, they're not sure what to do, what rooms to clear, to follow the keyer or not, should i gate this? Etc etc, furthermore, because they're only in the skill for said rewards, the majority do not wish to learn how to improve themself, as they're just going to throw the skill away in a few days anyway.

 

Edit: I'm off to work, so if you reply i may have to reply back to you when i finish

Cheers, hope you can see where i'm coming from

I understand what you're saying, however i still partially, ya, partially, stand by what i said ;).

[green9090]

Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

I'm speaking from when I was in the 70s and below, I've since found better people to dungeoneer with.

 

Your random quip has nothing to do with my point, though. A significantly higher percentage of people who hate dungeoneering will do it efficiently than that of people who like it, just by virtue of their goals when they train.

 

Ah, well 70 and below is such a small minority and hence, should be disregarded. My main point was, the people who hate dungeoneering have very little practice in it, they're not sure what to do, what rooms to clear, to follow the keyer or not, should i gate this? Etc etc, furthermore, because they're only in the skill for said rewards, the majority do not wish to learn how to improve themself, as they're just going to throw the skill away in a few days anyway.

Not in my experience. Most of the people who didn't suck I met on my way to 80 hated it.

 

The reason everyone post 85 or so likes it for the most part is because everyone who hated it got their rewards and left already. Of course everyone left at our levels likes it because otherwise why play?

[TheAncient]

Faster dungeons are more enjoyable. Why is this even a discussion?

[green9090]

Faster dungeons are more enjoyable. Why is this even a discussion?

Because, terrifyingly, some people really like making a full set of armor, farming a few strong pots, and killing everything in the whole dungeon before taking out the boss and ending.

 

These people tend to get inexplicably angry when you try to rush them.

[SirIzenhime]

I tested my Eagle eye with a friend of mine.

 

I soaked 38 lp, and he hit a 359 on me.

That whole 14% of the damage over 200...is BS.

 

without the soak, he would have hit a 393 on me.

393-200 = 193

14% of 193 = 27

 

according to the calculations that have been presented, the 38 soak should not be possible.

 

That being said, the dungeoneering reward shields are not worth getting, except for the Eagle-eye (imo) for warring.

[DyingSilent]

I've never met someone just dunging for the rewards who slowed down dungeons on purpose, but I've met PLENTY of people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time.

 

I'm sure there are players who enjoy dungeoneering efficiently, but I guarantee there is nobody dunging just for the rewards who prefers to do it slowly.

 

Sounds like you need a better team and not randoms ;)

 

I was thinking the same thing as I read. As far as "people who "enjoy" skilling or clearing random rooms and slow down dungeons, on purpose, and yell at you when you tell them to stop wasting time," I more or less thought, "Sounds like 117 :ohnoes: ."

 

I never realised how crappy 117 got, until the other night when 148 was dead, I hopped to 117. Biggest mistake of my DGing history...

 

But as far as randoms go, there are some decent random teams. Today, I keyed a 27 min F43, the team was that good (Some might consider 27 min F43 "average," but it's decent for me, especially for not having a perm team).

 

Finally, I must say this. DG is much faster now for me, because I'm not doing it for the rewards. 1-80 took me so long, because I was just DGing to get a Chaotic. Now it goes so much faster, because I'm focused on the levels/fun I get from DG, rather than the rewards. I think this is something most 100+ DGers can agree with.

[Youmu]

Lol, because of a statement about dungeoneering rewards the topic has completely derailed...

 

But onto the topic. Jagex needs to give these shields a STATIC 20%/10% soak, and not capped at hits over 200. This should make the shields far more useful than before.

 

Also, I like to rush dungeons a lot too, but do I hate dungeoneering? No, I don't. I think W117'ers are the true dungeon haters, which explains why they're so inefficient.

[DyingSilent]

Lol, because of a statement about dungeoneering rewards the topic has completely derailed...

 

But onto the topic. Jagex needs to give these shields a STATIC 20%/10% soak, and not capped at hits over 200. This should make the shields far more useful than before.

 

Also, I like to rush dungeons a lot too, but do I hate dungeoneering? No, I don't. I think W117'ers are the true dungeon haters, which explains why they're so inefficient.

 

They almost all were inefficient at different times.

[Youmu]

They almost all were inefficient at different times.

Which is why they almost all quit dg at different times ;)

 

Seriously though Jagex, FIX THE FREAKING SHIELD PROBLEM.

[Quyneax]

They wouldn't have to remove the 200 damage limit if they upped the soak to 20% and 40% or so. If you'd be hit for 600 damage, you only take 600-0.4(600-200)=440 damage, which is a pretty high reduction. Of course the problem is that it wouldn't be particulary useful as you would usually pray against whatever style would be able to KO you, but it might be useful for safe pvp/corp (only when under direct attack)/Jad/tanking Kril with protect mage or so.

[Sir_Kurity]

You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

 

Because dung XP is useless after 85 unless your in it for the e-peen.

 

Everything after that has tokens as the primary objective. And thus you measure the efficiency of gaining tokens in comparison to gaining money.

[sumondskull6]

An average dungeon is 27 minutes? I can't remember the last 5:5 large I did that took less than an hour on world 148 >.<

 

Can someone please explain how in the hell youbare doing dungeons so fast, and where I can find teams like this at level 75 dg, 136 cmb, P2H and plate?

[CharlieBrown]

An average dungeon is 27 minutes? I can't remember the last 5:5 large I did that took less than an hour on world 148 >.<

 

Can someone please explain how in the hell youbare doing dungeons so fast, and where I can find teams like this at level 75 dg, 136 cmb, P2H and plate?

 

Well, #1, you have 75 dungeoneering. No pro team is going to take that on w 148, you'll have w 177 prods trying to be pro, thus, longer floors.

Secondly, no hood? = longer floors.

Got a mime room? Guess what, without a hood, you HAVE to clear that room, with a hood? You save 2 minutes, these things add up.

The hood is just, way better.

 

Not having a go at you, and the hood thing is totally not your fault (most likely, unless you got a drop and didn't bind it), you'll get faster dungeons as you gain more experience and better binds.

[Articultural]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

Not exactly what we were supposed to discuss; but lets go for it!

You have to consider if the superior melee and ranged defence of the primal platebody, could make it a better option than the ward.

The ward has decent maged defence.

 

With both platebody and ward, if only 1 style was attacking you, you would pray against that style.

With the Platebody you would pray against magic in a dangerous room with all 3 styles.

With ward you wouldn't know what to pray against

 

as for the ward beeing a shield that works with the "tank ring" - its very easy to find an antifire shield

 

Kind of offtopic, but if you bind a primal plate + celestial surgebox then you can still use your tank ring + get +7 Mage defence/attack without losing a bind slot (as box counts as ammo). It's also great for higher tier forgotten warriors.

[Othelbark]

I just read this page and it seems that the shields don't soak damage at (x-200)*0.14 (x being damage). But instead soak 14 or 7% of the whole hit, provided the hit would have done more than 200 damage.

[TheAncient]

kb is notoriously untrustworthy

but if you're right it soaks an avg of about 10 percent for 500 max, 5 percent for a 300 max

 

formula for average reuction is max-200/max times 0.14

 

if so the shields are collectively better than ely for trbriding in pvp

cks would be about as good as ely against range

fks would be better than arc and arguably better than ely while maging

eels would be better than ely against mage

 

could we get someone to test this

 

 

 

jagged fails communication 3 times. mod and kb disagree yet again

[DyingSilent]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

Not exactly what we were supposed to discuss; but lets go for it!

You have to consider if the superior melee and ranged defence of the primal platebody, could make it a better option than the ward.

The ward has decent maged defence.

 

With both platebody and ward, if only 1 style was attacking you, you would pray against that style.

With the Platebody you would pray against magic in a dangerous room with all 3 styles.

With ward you wouldn't know what to pray against

 

as for the ward beeing a shield that works with the "tank ring" - its very easy to find an antifire shield

 

Kind of offtopic, but if you bind a primal plate + celestial surgebox then you can still use your tank ring + get +7 Mage defence/attack without losing a bind slot (as box counts as ammo). It's also great for higher tier forgotten warriors.

 

I've heard multiple discussions as to whether CSB works as a shield for the tank ring or not. Can someone please confirm? I have primal battleaxe and CSB bound now (as well as hood, obviously), and if CSB counts as a shield, that's just that much better for me.

[CharlieBrown]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

Not exactly what we were supposed to discuss; but lets go for it!

You have to consider if the superior melee and ranged defence of the primal platebody, could make it a better option than the ward.

The ward has decent maged defence.

 

With both platebody and ward, if only 1 style was attacking you, you would pray against that style.

With the Platebody you would pray against magic in a dangerous room with all 3 styles.

With ward you wouldn't know what to pray against

 

as for the ward beeing a shield that works with the "tank ring" - its very easy to find an antifire shield

 

Kind of offtopic, but if you bind a primal plate + celestial surgebox then you can still use your tank ring + get +7 Mage defence/attack without losing a bind slot (as box counts as ammo). It's also great for higher tier forgotten warriors.

 

I've heard multiple discussions as to whether CSB works as a shield for the tank ring or not. Can someone please confirm? I have primal battleaxe and CSB bound now (as well as hood, obviously), and if CSB counts as a shield, that's just that much better for me.

The surgebox doesn't count as a shield, so don't use tank ring with it (from mod Chris L on HLF). Also from my experience you end up taking less damage using gatherer/artisan ring while keying.

 

Taken from "pro dg'ing" topic, can't comment on the reliability of said quote, however