I'm all for freedom of speech, but just because you can say something doesn't mean that you should.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but just because you can say something doesn't mean that you should.

 

If that's how people always felt then the purpose and need for freedom of speech dies, right then and there. By intelligent discourse and refraining from getting into the realm of personal attacks/degrading, people learn. But all I've seen in this thread, granted prior to a moderator's belated warning, was a lot of a pissing contest of "I know better than you because..." The death of freedom of speech is this, choked in ignorance and self-importance. It's shocking and appalling for so many reasons. And no, it's not just from you Skeptical, but you just had the misfortune of starting a rant. I apologize.

@ Mask, yes of course the whole point of the Olympics is to show the best of your country, what's wrong with that? It's propoganda in the way the whole world was there and a majority liked it? You know it wasn't only the Chinese government who said "OH, this building is top class!", and instead many foreigners who were there said the same?

Which is not the point I was getting at.

The show that any country puts on for the Olympics is nothing like what a country is actually like. The whole point is to impress the rest of the world.

Usually it goes further than that and no one region of a country is the same as another. Beijing is more than likely nothing like any other given area of China just as Detroit and Edmonton are nothing like other parts of The United States or Canada.

 

So what if it's nothing like the rest of the country? I'm not talking about China being uber wealthy and everyone is living comfortably, I'm talking about architecture, bonkers (saru) said the Chinese buildings were nothing like North American/ European building and I'm proving him wrong. What's wrong with using the Bird's Nest & other Olympic buildings as an example? I said Saru was subject to propoganda because I assume he gets all the information on how bad China is from his country's media, he is free to prove me wrong by telling me where he gets his information, and not by saying "you don't know where I get my news from, mmmmk?".

 

 

 

I'm not about to debase myself to that level, nice try though. And here's a fun fact, you can live in a country and know nothing about it, International boy.

 

And here's a not so fun fact, arguements need examples to be backed up. All you've said is things build in China are utter crap, and North America and Europe is obviously better.

 

Also I do know about my country, ok "American boy?" Do YOU know about YOUR country? If you do, then you shouldn't be saying your buildings are better.

[hide=are you serious?]

Day 12: Public denied access to structure - huge amounts of lead found in the paint.

Day 16: Chinese government outlaws national news crews from the surrounding area.

Day 18: All workers from the project have gone missing.

Day 20: Wall panels fall off - were attached with gorilla glue.

Day 27: Screws recalled to factory - made with radioactive materials.

Day 30: Metallic frame collapses.

 

And they will call it the Happy One Month Great Tower.

 

It's interesting that people are so determined to knock this project. I would like to revisit this in a few years. Yes, I'm sure there will be some problems, but such issues are essentially inherent into the construction of any building, no matter the size or speed at which is was assembled.

My theory is that people are insecure, and fearful about their position in the world. There are several Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Pakistanis, any number of people, that could all do your job, and likely better than you, if they were given the chance. However, they will not get that chance, for merit of their poverty, skin colour, or nationality. With greater globalization (which is inevitable, whatever the left/right would like to say) there will be greater equality. It's not going to be a leveling up for us, no matter the value that Thomas Friedman wishes to place on skilled labor and "roll-up-your-sleeves" work ethic.

 

It has actually been surprisingly easy for me to reconcile with the fact that I will not be able to take from the world as much as the members of the previous generation did. I hope that I'm never so greedy as to turn my back on the principles of equality, or so sure of my country's superiority over others to wait, fascinated, with the sadistic hope that my pretensions of superiority will be confirmed.

 

Ok. Once you have obtained a job, you may speculate about "the world." Until then, you don't have a valid approach.

 

And I agree with Dupin, even if I would personally bump the time table up about 6 days a faster.

 

To the underlined part, that is just plain wrong. Things built in China are utter [cabbage], and due to your lack of experience in the world, just in general, shows itself more clearly now. These building flaws do not happen in say, oh I don't know, America, Europe. China is trying to cut corners, and eventually they'll cut something they wish they hadn't.

[/hide]

 

Mate, have you ever been to China before? Have you seen the buildings? Take the 2008 Olympics for an example, all the building were top of the class, safe and sound, cleverly designed. Don't talk [cabbage] about someone you've never seen before, k? Don't take the one-sided news you Americans recieve, its called propoganda, and I guess it's working. Why don't you get some experience on this subject before you start generalizing things.

 

Well I know more than you think I know, so I guess I can talk [cabbage]. By the way, Canada boy, you don't know where I get my news from, so don't pretend to, mmmk?

 

 

Heh heh it's funny what that guy said to you... Does he not know that all those top class buildings are empty? LMAO!

 

Your ignorance truly amazes me.

 

Please, lets stop filling up this thread about mindless jabs at one another's ignorance, and borderline flame posts.

 

I hope defending my country from false claims is not considered flaming or mindless jabs.

I don't know much about architecture, but one thing is for certain - the US has far better eating utensils.

I don't know much about architecture, but one thing is for certain - the US has far better eating utensils.

 

 

...

 

Sporks.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spork

 

 

Sporks are the worse thing in the world.

 

-----------------

 

And All is great, I would like proof your buildings are better, than I will post proof they aren't.

 

 

--------------

 

"Your ignorance truly amazes me."

 

 

 

Only ignorant people use the word "ignorance" pejoratively.

I have given plenty examples of famous Chinese architecture, and I've yet to see any examples from you. So why don't you get started on that, eh?

No, you haven't. Lol. Stating that there were some cool buildings for the olympics, is a subjective statement. I wanted links, proof that they are better, or if not better, at least on the same playing field as US architecture. You do that, and if I can't beat those links, I'll eat every word I've spoken on the topic.

UAE and Qatar obviously win, but for countries that aren't rich off oil, Taiwan >>>>>>>>>>> China. The US can go somewhere in there, I don't care.

I mean, one of the tallest buildings in the world in an earthquake and typhoon zone...yeah. Beat that, commie mainlanders! :shades:

No, you haven't. Lol. Stating that there were some cool buildings for the olympics, is a subjective statement. I wanted links, proof that they are better, or if not better, at least on the same playing field as US architecture. You do that, and if I can't beat those links, I'll eat every word I've spoken on the topic.

 

Ok I'll get started off with the Forbidden Palace. wikipedia link I think wikipedia is legitimate enough for this topic.

 

Oh and here's something you don't see in North America, the Hanging Monastery, and here's a non-wikipedia Link.

 

Lol, are you going to tell me those are "subjective" views and therefore don't count? You know architecture is not all about statistics like the height of the building, etc.

What? I don't care about ancient buildings? We were talking about the current UP TO DATE building procedures/codes/quality guidelines. I originally brought up the topic, by insinuating that shoddy materials were shot out left and right out of factories. Bringing up buildings that are very old, is just as relevant to the argument, as stating that the crucifix is proof God exists.

What? I don't care about ancient buildings? We were talking about the current UP TO DATE building procedures/codes/quality guidelines. I originally brought up the topic, by insinuating that shoddy materials were shot out left and right out of factories. Bringing up buildings that are very old, is just as relevant to the argument, as stating that the crucifix is proof God exists.

 

You said, and I quote, "things built in China are utter crap". Now I'm giving you examples about how they're not utter crap.

 

LOL, anymore excuses?

 

"waaaaah olympic buildings don't count"

"waaaaah ancient buildings don't count"

"waaaaaah you give examples first so I'll have an easier time countering them"

 

:wall: :wall:

 

Show me a building in America that's built into the side of a cliff will ya?

Stand strong All Is Great, for you are defending the Chairman! Teach these pigs the might of the People's Republic!

While that was pretty cool to watch, I'm not surprised that it only took 6 days. They had God knows how many workers and 7 cranes or something.

Still very interesting (y)

What? I don't care about ancient buildings? We were talking about the current UP TO DATE building procedures/codes/quality guidelines. I originally brought up the topic, by insinuating that shoddy materials were shot out left and right out of factories. Bringing up buildings that are very old, is just as relevant to the argument, as stating that the crucifix is proof God exists.

 

You said, and I quote, "things built in China are utter crap". Now I'm giving you examples about how they're not utter crap.

 

LOL, anymore excuses?

 

"waaaaah olympic buildings don't count"

"waaaaah ancient buildings don't count"

"waaaaaah you give examples first so I'll have an easier time countering them"

 

:wall: :wall:

 

Show me a building in America that's built into the side of a cliff will ya?

 

Spain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellfollit_de_la_Roca

France: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocamadour

US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Verde

Yemen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Hajjara

Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positano

Greece: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini

 

Need I go on?

 

The point being made here is that I don't think any country or society is particularly better at architecture then any other.

What? I don't care about ancient buildings? We were talking about the current UP TO DATE building procedures/codes/quality guidelines. I originally brought up the topic, by insinuating that shoddy materials were shot out left and right out of factories. Bringing up buildings that are very old, is just as relevant to the argument, as stating that the crucifix is proof God exists.

 

You said, and I quote, "things built in China are utter crap". Now I'm giving you examples about how they're not utter crap.

 

LOL, anymore excuses?

 

"waaaaah olympic buildings don't count"

"waaaaah ancient buildings don't count"

"waaaaaah you give examples first so I'll have an easier time countering them"

 

:wall: :wall:

 

Show me a building in America that's built into the side of a cliff will ya?

 

Don't let me get to you so easily.

 

 

First off, you have not provided any links proving that the Olympic buildings are still structurally sound, while I have no doubt that they are, I would still like proof.

 

However, the relevance of such buildings does come into play, when I I am referring to the actual building materials. Surely, if the buildings were made for the world to see, they would be exemplary examples of architecture, as I'm sure is true for any country. But for the average Chinese buildings, the ones you know, this argument is based upon, can they be compared? I'd say not.

 

As for the ancient buildings, again, relevance comes into play.

 

 

-----

 

 

And because I'm not about to show all these links, just for you to discount them as "those are fake/racist/sexist/bigoted/paranoid etc. etc. etc." And when I ask for proof that the Chinese buildings are indeed superior, I know you will not deliver, but merely state instead, how inferior the links are that I provided. I do not have time in my schedule for that.

The point being made here is that I don't think any country or society is particularly better at architecture then any other.

Especially when large international companies design and make the buildings.

 

Not that I know of that, LONG LIVE THE CHAIRMAN!

First off, you have not provided any links proving that the Olympic buildings are still structurally sound, while I have no doubt that they are, I would still like proof.

 

 

If you don't doubt the structural soundness of the buildings then why are you demanding proof unless you're trying to provoke him?

 

However, the relevance of such buildings does come into play, when I I am referring to the actual building materials. Surely, if the buildings were made for the world to see, they would be exemplary examples of architecture, as I'm sure is true for any country. But for the average Chinese buildings, the ones you know, this argument is based upon, can they be compared? I'd say not.

 

That doesn't even make sense.

 

As for the ancient buildings, again, relevance comes into play.

 

Not if you're saying Chinese and not specifying any timeframe. If you're going to argue relevance I would avoid blanket, non-specific terminology.

 

And because I'm not about to show all these links, just for you to discount them as "those are fake/racist/sexist/bigoted/paranoid etc. etc. etc." And when I ask for proof that the Chinese buildings are indeed superior, I know you will not deliver, but merely state instead, how inferior the links are that I provided. I do not have time in my schedule for that.

 

If you're going to denounce something the burden of proof lies on you. If you choose not to present it, don't be shocked when people don't believe you. If people don't believe you, asserting that you're always right and being derisive with comments like, "My time is too precious to waste arguing with you, even though I've argued with you over the span of the past 3 days prior to this" will not help your cause.

US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Verde

Thank you. I was going to post this one much earlier, but I forgot the name.

 

The thing with architecture is that different countries have different standards and needs. A highly retrofitted building that could survive a magnitude 8 or so earthquake is great in China or California, but a bit unnecessary in, say, Utah. And an impossibly tall building in an area with low population density is just wasteful. Each area's architecture suits its needs.

US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Verde

Thank you. I was going to post this one much earlier, but I forgot the name.

 

The thing with architecture is that different countries have different standards and needs. A highly retrofitted building that could survive a magnitude 8 or so earthquake is great in China or California, but a bit unnecessary in, say, Utah. And an impossibly tall building in an area with low population density is just wasteful. Each area's architecture suits its needs.

 

Cool I didn't know about the Mesa Verde. Even though the Mesa Verda and the Hanging Monastary are pretty different, I did ask for something built onto the side of a cliff, so I guess it counts :razz: . This means Chinese architecture isn't utter crap, eh? Same playing field perhaps?

 

I agree, different countries have different styles of architecture, example, you see ancient castles all over Europe, but in China, you see temples, Palaces, etc. Different styles with no way to say exactly which one is better. That is what was p***ing me off about what bonkers(saru) said about Chinese buildings being utter crap.

 

Btw, Saru, you don't use average buildings to compare which buildings are the "best" (i'm over the Chinese > NA + Europe, it's a pointless arguement), you use your best examples. Go search up photos of suburban Detroit, would you use those worn out houses as examples to say how they're better than Chinese high-rises? I don't think so. I would think you'd use structures like the Statue of Liberty (even though that was a gift from France, lol), white house maybe? Golden Gate Bridge, etc.

Frank Lloyd Wright architecture in America is ftw. Better than that Chinese crap anyway.

 

 

:wink: I know, troll harder.

 

 

There is something to be said about a well designed structure, no matter where it is or who built it, is breathtaking. My favorites are bridges - each one presents a different set of problems, and can be as beautiful as they are functional. They also show how far humanity has come from a scientific and engineering standpoint in the past 200 years, verses the thousands of years before that.

Cool I didn't know about the Mesa Verde. Even though the Mesa Verda and the Hanging Monastary are pretty different, I did ask for something built onto the side of a cliff, so I guess it counts :razz: . This means Chinese architecture isn't utter crap, eh? Same playing field perhaps?

 

I agree, different countries have different styles of architecture, example, you see ancient castles all over Europe, but in China, you see temples, Palaces, etc. Different styles with no way to say exactly which one is better. That is what was p***ing me off about what bonkers(saru) said about Chinese buildings being utter crap.

It's probably the same kind of pride making him claim that American architecture is superior that's making you defend Chinese architecture, with a bit of personal preference thrown in. To each his own perhaps? :razz:

First off, you have not provided any links proving that the Olympic buildings are still structurally sound, while I have no doubt that they are, I would still like proof.

 

 

 

If you don't doubt the structural soundness of the buildings then why are you demanding proof unless you're trying to provoke him?

 

 

Because it's a matter of principle, links still need to be given to provide proof. Because he's essentially doing what I am doing, he's making a statement with no proof to back it up. Simply because I assume it is sound proof, well, again, I don't know it's sound proof, I am *assuming* it is sound proof.

 

However, the relevance of such buildings does come into play, when I I am referring to the actual building materials. Surely, if the buildings were made for the world to see, they would be exemplary examples of architecture, as I'm sure is true for any country. But for the average Chinese buildings, the ones you know, this argument is based upon, can they be compared? I'd say not.

 

 

That doesn't even make sense.

 

 

It makes perfect sense... When I said earlier that I believe Chinese buildings to be utter crap, I rephrased/elucidated upon the matter that I am referring to the building material, as well as the quality guidelines to which they are made. If a piece of propganda, such as the Forbidden City, or the Olympian buildings were being made, surely an extraordinary amount of care would go into the projects, to make sure they go off without a hitch? I'm not saying that's for China only obviously, it happens everywhere. I mean its like saying that joe's crab shack is built to the same standards of the White House... You can't compare them, because one is a very special building, the either is the run of the mill buildings. I have an issue with the run of the mill buildings, or more specifically, the materials to hold them up.

 

As for the ancient buildings, again, relevance comes into play.

 

 

Not if you're saying Chinese and not specifying any timeframe. If you're going to argue relevance I would avoid blanket, non-specific terminology.

 

I did specify a timeframe. Recent. I.e. 1960s area, give or take 20 years (but we've been going under a mini building revolution, so I wouldn't go further than that.) I am not interested in the Forbidden city.

 

And because I'm not about to show all these links, just for you to discount them as "those are fake/racist/sexist/bigoted/paranoid etc. etc. etc." And when I ask for proof that the Chinese buildings are indeed superior, I know you will not deliver, but merely state instead, how inferior the links are that I provided. I do not have time in my schedule for that.

If you're going to denounce something the burden of proof lies on you. If you choose not to present it, don't be shocked when people don't believe you. If people don't believe you, asserting that you're always right and being derisive with comments like, "My time is too precious to waste arguing with you, even though I've argued with you over the span of the past 3 days prior to this" will not help your cause.

 

 

What? Wow. Ok. I am not asking to be believed, nor am I being derisive. I enjoy arguging/"heated" debating, so I do not mind wasting my time, as I do get pleasure from it. However, I abhor going through links after links, when I know they are going to be ignored for no reason. The reason I am not accepting the links All is Great provided, is beceause of the vast time frame difference, they are not relevant, which is a major factor of the truth claim.

 

 

 

 

US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Verde

Thank you. I was going to post this one much earlier, but I forgot the name.

 

The thing with architecture is that different countries have different standards and needs. A highly retrofitted building that could survive a magnitude 8 or so earthquake is great in China or California, but a bit unnecessary in, say, Utah. And an impossibly tall building in an area with low population density is just wasteful. Each area's architecture suits its needs.

 

Cool I didn't know about the Mesa Verde. Even though the Mesa Verda and the Hanging Monastary are pretty different, I did ask for something built onto the side of a cliff, so I guess it counts :razz: . This means Chinese architecture isn't utter crap, eh? Same playing field perhaps?

 

I agree, different countries have different styles of architecture, example, you see ancient castles all over Europe, but in China, you see temples, Palaces, etc. Different styles with no way to say exactly which one is better. That is what was p***ing me off about what bonkers(saru) said about Chinese buildings being utter crap.

 

Btw, Saru, you don't use average buildings to compare which buildings are the "best" (i'm over the Chinese > NA + Europe, it's a pointless arguement), you use your best examples. Go search up photos of suburban Detroit, would you use those worn out houses as examples to say how they're better than Chinese high-rises? I don't think so. I would think you'd use structures like the Statue of Liberty (even though that was a gift from France, lol), white house maybe? Golden Gate Bridge, etc.

 

 

I wouldn't use any of them. And this is why I'm not providing the links. Because if you can't even realize I am currently, and always have been simply arguing about the structural safety of products which could be in ANY building, how would act to the links. I would show statistics of X amount of buildings collapsing in America, vs. X amount of buildings collapsing in China. etc. (Although the Chinese results would be greatly skewed).

 

 

So if you want to either take this to pm, or restart I'd be more than happy too; as I think the argument itself has become too muddled.

 

 

So I will reiterate this.

 

I believe to be true that Chinese materials, are not help up to as high quality guidelines, as American. I also believe to be true, that this will cause many structures built with a combination/majority of these products to collapse. I also believe there is proof for these claims.

Repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is a mark of insanity.

Repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is a mark of insanity.

I think it's been pretty clear for a while that Saru is bonkers.